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RoTRL Experiment

Game Master ciretose

RoTRL Challenge Experiment.


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Yeah -- I roll in the open personally. I've never really had a need to roll behind the screen so to speak. Players roll openly I roll openly, but I also generally let them know the modifiers involved sometime after the roll (or midway through) -- I tend to throw some tough stuff so it helps prove that I'm not just making stuff up when I say a 3 makes a save or that a 15 (on the dice) doesn't hit.

The fifteen on the dice also came from an inquisitor before he used his buffs and what not so it's not so crazy he didn't hit with that either.

Personally I think it would be fine (and solve the problem) if we simply say it works like misfortune (the hex) but only on the one roll (i.e. roll twice and take the lowest).

This would:
1. Prevent misfortune being used to help allies.
2. Guarantee that it will force misfortune without knocking on the fourth wall.

Example in play would be:
Wizard: I cast color spray
Oracle: Before that goes off I'll use misfortune on the main target (X).
GM: rolls two dice takes the lowest He fails his save (or he makes it all the same because it was a 15 and a 13 instead of a 20 and a 1).

I think that perhaps for major scenes we should actually run the encounter. My thought is this would allow for lethality and something other than a simple general run down of the entire dungeon. My suggestion would be this should be fairly simple (ciretose simply provides distance and general dangers as we perceive or set them off) and we just provide action for the round and see the rolls.

It will take longer but it will also allow the big battles to be more representative of actual play. I suggest that this only be done with encounters that are known for their deadliness. Perhaps just those that have been noted for causing an undue amount of death for a party.

Sczarni

Male Cuddly L'il Fuzzy Hamster Psion (Telepath) 20

Undue lethality in RotRL pops up in several places.

Off the top of my head:

Malfsheneekor

Xanesha

The Grauls (if used to their utter nasty limits, for sure)

Mokmurian

Big K himself.

I might be missing a few here and there, but those are the high points, IIRC.

Andoran

Abraham spalding wrote:

Yeah -- I roll in the open personally. I've never really had a need to roll behind the screen so to speak. Players roll openly I roll openly, but I also generally let them know the modifiers involved sometime after the roll (or midway through) -- I tend to throw some tough stuff so it helps prove that I'm not just making stuff up when I say a 3 makes a save or that a 15 (on the dice) doesn't hit.

The fifteen on the dice also came from an inquisitor before he used his buffs and what not so it's not so crazy he didn't hit with that either.

Personally I think it would be fine (and solve the problem) if we simply say it works like misfortune (the hex) but only on the one roll (i.e. roll twice and take the lowest).

This would:
1. Prevent misfortune being used to help allies.
2. Guarantee that it will force misfortune without knocking on the fourth wall.

Example in play would be:
Wizard: I cast color spray
Oracle: Before that goes off I'll use misfortune on the main target (X).
GM: rolls two dice takes the lowest He fails his save (or he makes it all the same because it was a 15 and a 13 instead of a 20 and a 1).

I think that perhaps for major scenes we should actually run the encounter. My thought is this would allow for lethality and something other than a simple general run down of the entire dungeon. My suggestion would be this should be fairly simple (ciretose simply provides distance and general dangers as we perceive or set them off) and we just provide action for the round and see the rolls.

It will take longer but it will also allow the big battles to be more representative of actual play. I suggest that this only be done with encounters that are known for their deadliness. Perhaps just those that have been noted for causing an undue amount of death for a party.

I would even be fine if it was just like misfortune the hex, as that includes a save.

That seems the easy fix, and hopefully how the Devs go.

The only problem with running the encounter is who is going to GM? As we are seeing from this question, we have different table philosophies already at work. How would misfortune work with a dice roller? Do we stop game after each d20 roll to wait and see if the player is using it at that time?

Not to mention it is taking a few days for each set now, encounters can take weeks to play out in PbP, particularly with the above issues...

The ideal way to do all this is to actually play it, but the trade off we are going for is speeding this up. If people want to do it here in discussion or other threads, I have no objections personally, but I would rather keep the train rolling to get through the AP with the group.


Just to let you know, i agree that misfortune is a very powerful ability, its also been FAQ'd before and came back as no response required but hopefully with the ammount of FAQ attacks going on it will get picked up.

The ability as writen is either powerful or doesn't work so i see no other option than to allow it to be powerful. I think the best way was described as "i roll a 13, do you want to misfortune?", like i said its being used on rather specific rolls anyway, crits from mooks or saves/crits from major NPC's. If the GM then wants to hide his rolls or cheat in order to preserve his game thats his choice, but in a "fair" game with open rolls played by RAW the misfortune ability works as we have been using it.

Obviously the point of the experiment is to highlight powerful builds that people have missed or have not got the notice they deserve and i have suceeded in doing that, would you like me to create a different character to support the party to remove this bone of contention?

I read a thread that suggested Hospitalier Paladins can keep a party alive just as well as any other healer which i would love to prove wrong and stick the boot into :p

Andoran

Egoish wrote:

Just to let you know, i agree that misfortune is a very powerful ability, its also been FAQ'd before and came back as no response required but hopefully with the ammount of FAQ attacks going on it will get picked up.

The ability as writen is either powerful or doesn't work so i see no other option than to allow it to be powerful. I think the best way was described as "i roll a 13, do you want to misfortune?", like i said its being used on rather specific rolls anyway, crits from mooks or saves/crits from major NPC's. If the GM then wants to hide his rolls or cheat in order to preserve his game thats his choice, but in a "fair" game with open rolls played by RAW the misfortune ability works as we have been using it.

Obviously the point of the experiment is to highlight powerful builds that people have missed or have not got the notice they deserve and i have suceeded in doing that, would you like me to create a different character to support the party to remove this bone of contention?

I read a thread that suggested Hospitalier Paladins can keep a party alive just as well as any other healer which i would love to prove wrong and stick the boot into :p

Part of the reason I am emphasizing speed is so this can be done again for either other build groups or other AP's.

Personally, I'm having a lot of fun reading and discussing it as is, and like you said, you have helped identify one hole. If the Devs "fix" it, you can try out the fix as we go, which is also useful.

Having another one of these going for other builds would be great, either after or parallel with other people.

So far I don't think this has been overly taxing on the participants and I think it has been interesting and useful.

Win Win.


also after your post in the misfortune faq quest thread i am thinking about a small witch with a wolf familiar cackling every round and throwing around a lot of ability focused accursed/split hex misfortune/evil eye/fortune...

i might even be able to take the healing witch archtype and still be effective.

I'll play through with the oracle though, just don't want her score to start dropping cause people think her misfortune ability is OP, as written it bones npc's crits and saves and helps pc's on saves and skills. Lets not try to nerf it ourselves until it gets FAQ'd, even if you guys want to remember to put some restrictions on it at your own tables before you start a new game.


Actually I didn't mean with the save throw -- the witch's power is more powerful since it hits every single d20 they roll for that round and beyond -- this affects a single roll.

What I meant was that it would still be a immediate action with no save but only affects a single roll still and that roll is rolled twice and the lowest is taken.

Andoran

@Abraham Spaulding - Yes it is more powerful when it works, but enemies will get a saving throw against it having any effect, it costs the standard action for that round (and the move if you cackle) while forcing your witch to be very close to whoever they are using it on.

On the other side, the Oracle can cast an SoS spell, in the same round use misfortune as an immediate action with no save for the creature they are using it on, and still have a move action left, at first level.

@Egoish - I would love for this to become a way to adjudicate some of the power war threads. If there are problems, they need to be addressed. But we are also seeing that some of the builds are going to struggle to survive long enough to get to the "badass" level.

I hope the judges don't drop scores because it is OP, on the contrary I think the judges should judge it as is, as if it is over powered it will be great evidence to give to the Devs to get a fix in the same way that if something is very underpowered we can do the same.

My thought is that the game is designed to be compatible with the AP, so if one class is overly powerful or weak when running an AP, it is more meaningful than some abstract theorycrafted scenario.


My plan is to just keep on truckin' as a judge. I'll judge the Oracle's power as written, and that'll pretty much keep her in the top two along with buffs and heals, if I had to guess. However, the thirty feet thing is interesting, and could seriously lead to the Oracle's death at some point (like...when giants/dragons show up).

I see how powerful it is with SoS spells (my real hate there is reserved for Ill Omen at higher levels....more no save nonsense), but my personal distaste for it is the fact it can be used as an "almost-always" crit negation technique. If all you use it for is that, it's pretty darn close to making the party immune to crits. When combined with SoS for offense every now and then and just keeping it ready for crits/really bad saving throws for other party members, it might be the single most powerful ability in the entire game in terms of how much it helps offense AND defense. It pretty much allows the party to go with a rocket tag style offense, but provides a consistent anti-missile defense as well.

All of that said, I'd build almost the exact same Oracle (I mean that as a bigtime compliment, Egoish, though your name makes me not want to compliment you) if I knew I was playing in a high powered game and wanted to "team build" with my other group members.


i'm well known for being right! just kidding... but not really! its just a forum tag and my mmo name(when you pvp a lot it pays to have an inflamatory name), there are some jokes around my gaming table about my positive mass ego but i think they are exagerated.

The oracle is a super powerful character as long as you recognise its weaknesses and build around them, i think vs giants the build will sit well due to its high con (hp) and ac (stacked) and tbh dragons are some of the easiest encounters for any party just due to action economy unless the gm plays them very well. One thing to bear in mind with the oracle build is that its ment to be very very very defensive and swing its morning star every now and again, if you need to deal damage you have to bust out some spells for buffing, so far its been coming first because its making the monk and the wizard better (much better?) while still being very effective in the main divine caster role of "healer".

I honestly think for a team build the oracle is far better than the cleric, though i would also be tempted to give a mounted halfling witch a try if we were going to give out Oscars for "best supporting character". i am a firm supporter of the "god-wizard" style of play btw but in this role i think the oracle is just a far better all round character than the wizard dispite the fact the wizads spell casting is still more powerful. If sorcerers were as good compared to wizards as oracles are compared to clerics i don't think we'd even be talking in this thread right now cause the thread about spont vs prep would be very very different.


On another note i am very glad that the oracle is performing so well, i'm happy the wizard is picking up and performing better than the sorcerer so far (no offense abraham but i think wizards are better casters), however i am a little pissed that the oracle is out performing the wizard.

I'm not suprised since the oracle is out performing the wizard due to simply having the reroll ability rather than on spellcasting ability which was really the point we were discussing in the spont vs prep thread that started all this. When i get some spare time (april) i'll write up the blaster varient that i have been talking about in the advice thread and we can slot that in place of the god wizard and see what the judges think of it.

Andoran

Egoish wrote:

On another note i am very glad that the oracle is performing so well, i'm happy the wizard is picking up and performing better than the sorcerer so far (no offense abraham but i think wizards are better casters), however i am a little pissed that the oracle is out performing the wizard.

I'm not suprised since the oracle is out performing the wizard due to simply having the reroll ability rather than on spellcasting ability which was really the point we were discussing in the spont vs prep thread that started all this. When i get some spare time (april) i'll write up the blaster varient that i have been talking about in the advice thread and we can slot that in place of the god wizard and see what the judges think of it.

Again, just to defend the sorcerer, this isn't a standard sorcerer. I would argue a standard sorcerer would be beating the wizard so far with spell spam.

Also, as I said earlier, color spray is mind effecting and a number of the things you are facing are immune to mind effecting spells (both the sin spawn and the mutant goblin)

Erylium is annoying, but not fatal. I think that was the plan the designer was going for, and I think coming back to deal with her when you are higher level or better prepared it built into the AP as an option.

I also just think this particular group isn't particularly good with this set of encounters.


I more vanilla Sorc would be mopping the floor with the Wizard as of right now, IMHO. I like what Abe is going for, though. I don't have too many firm beliefs when it comes to Pathfinder, but one of them is that Rogues are superfluous. If Abe's Sorc can do what a Rogue needs to do PLUS eventually have a good amount of spells and some options...then that's a good character, even if it doesn't end up grading out as well as the oracle or wizard.

Also, I'm going to keep using the phrase Re-rollacle until it sticks. Consider yourselves warned.

Cheliax

One thing I have been sure to keep in mind is that half the characters are pursuing one goal, while the other half are pursuing another. That is, the characters designed by Egoish are attempting to prove how great the builds are, while the other two are just trying to show that their builds are competitive. With this in mind, other than very special circumstances, the oracle and the wizard are almost certainly going to come out ahead once the builds have hit their stride. That is why I am measuring the characters, not only on how they function compared to each other, but also on how they function compared to my idea of a "baseline" character filling their role.

Andoran

AsmodeusUltima wrote:
One thing I have been sure to keep in mind is that half the characters are pursuing one goal, while the other half are pursuing another. That is, the characters designed by Egoish are attempting to prove how great the builds are, while the other two are just trying to show that their builds are competitive. With this in mind, other than very special circumstances, the oracle and the wizard are almost certainly going to come out ahead once the builds have hit their stride. That is why I am measuring the characters, not only on how they function compared to each other, but also on how they function compared to my idea of a "baseline" character filling their role.

Which is where the question of "how are they doing prior to their stride" comes in. Not to mention, how do they do at reaching their stride in world where they acquire loot over time as it comes rather than exactly as they want it at a prescribed level.

My impressions so far.

The oracle is doing great, and I think will continue to do so regardless of the outcome of the misforture ruling. It is an under-rated class, and this AP is very well suited to it. I expect her to dominate the next book as well, not to mention being the party face,healer, and secondary melee.

The wizard is exactly how I've experienced wizards in my games, potentially awesome or very challenged, depending on if they have the right spells and how long the day runs.

The sorcerer will be fine, but it is taking a long time to get to where they are going and the party is carrying them so far.

The monk isn't ideal for the tank role, but if this party stays stealthy it could be a perfect fit.

Overall concerns are how they will remove hit points later on with some of the bigger battles, but I think the party will adapt to find synergies as we go.


I agree that the sorcerer is very specialist and that a generalist sorcerer would perform better, however to say the wizard has been very challenged by encounters that the oracle could probably have solo'd with a more melee based build is a little disingenuous. The truely hard fights the god-wizard has made much much easier simply be being there, admittedly not always with the perfect spell for the job but a sorcerer would be working around even stricter limitations as to which spells were available.

Like we've been saying in the discussions for a long time the best spells for low level play (colour spray and sleep) do not work on some encounters, if a sorcerer had picked mage armour and colour spray at first level he would have been even more boned than the wizard on the mind immune monsters and slightly better on the trash goblins that didn't really need casting on anyway other than to make the fight slightly quicker. At least the wizard has true strike CMB to fall back on as well as grease, silent image, enlarge person scrolls, all things that the sorcerer simply would not have access to even at level 2.

I have no doubt a well prepared sorcerer can perform in combat as well as a wizard, its the out of combat that we are testing more than anything and i think the wizard is already proving he can pull ahead with his scroll crafting and thats just at level 2.

If god forbid i make some poor choices for spells on a certain day then the wizard will have trouble no doubt but so would a sorcerer who made those same bad choices 3 levels ago.


AsmodeusUltima wrote:
One thing I have been sure to keep in mind is that half the characters are pursuing one goal, while the other half are pursuing another. That is, the characters designed by Egoish are attempting to prove how great the builds are, while the other two are just trying to show that their builds are competitive. With this in mind, other than very special circumstances, the oracle and the wizard are almost certainly going to come out ahead once the builds have hit their stride. That is why I am measuring the characters, not only on how they function compared to each other, but also on how they function compared to my idea of a "baseline" character filling their role.

Indeed, this is probably the best way to do it. By your judging criteria i think the oracle is out performing any other similar heal/support build available (cleric/paladin/bard/witch) however i think i could make a witch that would be perhaps perform as well as the oracle but with less defense and more debuff.

The wizard is currently performing as well as any full caster would be expected to perform, i agree that a sorcerer would be able to spam colour spray more times per day but i do not think we have as yet seen a situation where that would be game breakingly useful (the initial goblin encounter was one point but they are so weak that its hardly necessary). I would love to see how the blaster build i posted in the evocation optimisation thread or even the blasting cleric that someone has recently posted would do in its place though.

The sorcerer is i think slightly worse than another rogue (ranger/bard/rogue/alchemist) would be in this slot at this level however i think it will come into its own as it gets more spells and maybe take over. One thing i think is that in a generic adventuring party the striker roll often falls to the rogue on top of its skill usage so i think that in this roll using the seeker archtype like Abe has and then going for a more blasty crossblooded combo and then leveling as wizard once you have your class skill points might be a more optimal build. However even in this roll i think an archery (urban) ranger is probably the top slot unless you have a lot of other strikers, a bard would be top if you needed the buffs and already had a couple of strikers, the alchemist can make a strong striker in its own right but not as good as an archery ranger and sadly i agree with Syl that the rogue is the ginger step child of pathfinder.

The monk i really really want to do well but so far i am finding that its just not quite as good as a "normal" tank, i think it could be a little more hyper optimised to squeeze out a little better performance but Boghu is still a well written character who is not quite as good as a fighter at this level. Hopefully we will see the difference when monsters start making touch attacks and targeting willpower saves since that is where the monk will shine, i have a sneaking suspicion that a paladin or barbarian could also step into this role quite easily and perhaps outperform the monk.

Overall i think an ideal party would be:

tank/striker/buffer; twf/shield fighter, hanging shield paladin or order of the bro bodyguard cavalier
skill/striker/buffer; archery ranger, blaster seeker sorc, striker bard
support caster/healer/striker; rerollacle, witch(hedge), cleric(blaster)
controller/sos/striker; blasting wizard, god wizard, master summoner

One party i would love to see run is a blasting wizard with a bit of god in him, a blasting cleric with a few heals, a blasting skill sorcerer and a bodyguard cavalier/bard for teamwork feats. Diviner blaster wizard lets everyone go with lookout feat, cavalier makes save dc's huge with teamwork feats and then alpha strike with aoe's every encounter.


back to sorting out loot before the judges post their results and we move onto a new set of encounters...

after the glassworks.

8 dogslicers 4gp ea = 32gp
composite shortbow (+1 Strength) 75gp
ring of protection +1 (give to monk or oracle?)
masterwork thieves’ tools (give to sorcerer?)
masterwork flute 50gp
silver earrings (25 gp for the pair)
6 pouches of gold dust worth 50 gp each 300gp
8 pouches of silver dust worth 5 gp each 40gp
10 pp

total = 622
155.5 gp each after dropping it, round that off to each of us having 250gp to spend over the first two days of adventuring since we got 9x gp on the first day.

lets discuss this now since people might want scrolls crafting (mage armour) or might want to look towards extra stuff...

after the annoying little thing...

+1 longsword, 1157.5gp
masterwork handaxe, 153gp
silver dagger (keep for dr?)
+1 returning dagger, 4151gp
miniature tiara worth 50 gp,
miniature black silk gown worth 25 gp,
obsidian unholy symbol of Lamashtu worth 10 gp
arcane scroll of burning hands (sorc or wizard?)
scroll of flaming sphere (sorc or wizard?)
Runelord Alaznist’s masterwork ranseur (400 gp)
book is worth 100 gp (what book?)
wand of shocking grasp (28 charges) (sorc or wizard?)

are we going to be able to sell or not sell all of these items? does anyone want anything specifically? do we level up to 3? do we have any aditional downtime or crafting time? is there somewhere that the wizard can buy second level scrolls? do you want to roll the 75% chance for them to be available?

Andoran

Egoish wrote:


are we going to be able to sell or not sell all of these items? does anyone want anything specifically? do we level up to 3? do we have any aditional downtime or crafting time? is there somewhere that the wizard can buy second level scrolls? do you want to roll the 75% chance for them to be available?

Not really until after you take care of the goblin fortress. You learned from Tsuto's journal that someone is trying to unleash a Macguffin to help a much larger scale invasion of the town which will occur as soon as they can unleash the macguffin, any day now.

So you are really moving forward toward the goblin fort, possibly bypassing the area you are in until later in the AP, depending on how the players decide to run it.

After the goblin fort (between level 3 and 4) you will have a few weeks if I remember correctly, and later in the AP you have literally months and months off, but this book pushes you pretty quickly.

Also, you won't be in a decent sized city to buy things until about the transition between level 5 and 6, but you should be able to sell everything you've found during the day before you go to the goblin area, but buying values will be based on the chart for small town.


so the book is a macguffin that is worth 100gp after its stopped advancing the plot?

the second list we will leave for now then since we do not have the chance to sell it until after we have dealt with this goblin fort. thats not really a problem since we're still pretty poor at the moment anyway.

the small town base value is 1000gp so the wizard should be able to buy scrolls of pretty much any second level spell he wants, the players can also pay a local spell caster to cast spells of up to 4th level so the chances are there is a local spell caster who would allow our wizard to copy spells from his spellbook for the standard costs.

each of us has slightly over 250gp to spend on bits and i would suspect the wizard will be spending his on more spells and scrolls. Learning and scribing a new 1st level spell into a spell book from another wizard costs 15gp and a 2nd level spell costs 60gp, i'll make a short list of the spells that iGo would like to pick up before moving off into the wilds (ie before the encounter phase we have just done).

Ciretose, i understand that you want to get through this as quickly as possible but there is a huge ammount of detail to pathfinder other than just running through combats and without you providing us with details of the downtime and giving us time to discuss what we are actually going to do then we cannot adaquately prepare for our mock adventures. You had the details and treasure from the third set of encounters up before we had even had chance to split the treasure from the second set, we need a little more time to find out stride as an adventuring party then splitting the loot will be much faster and i'll be able to keep you up to date on the wizards out of combat activities as well.

Andoran

Egoish wrote:

so the book is a macguffin that is worth 100gp after its stopped advancing the plot?

the second list we will leave for now then since we do not have the chance to sell it until after we have dealt with this goblin fort. thats not really a problem since we're still pretty poor at the moment anyway.

the small town base value is 1000gp so the wizard should be able to buy scrolls of pretty much any second level spell he wants, the players can also pay a local spell caster to cast spells of up to 4th level so the chances are there is a local spell caster who would allow our wizard to copy spells from his spellbook for the standard costs.

each of us has slightly over 250gp to spend on bits and i would suspect the wizard will be spending his on more spells and scrolls. Learning and scribing a new 1st level spell into a spell book from another wizard costs 15gp and a 2nd level spell costs 60gp, i'll make a short list of the spells that iGo would like to pick up before moving off into the wilds (ie before the encounter phase we have just done).

Ciretose, i understand that you want to get through this as quickly as possible but there is a huge ammount of detail to pathfinder other than just running through combats and without you providing us with details of the downtime and giving us time to discuss what we are actually going to do then we cannot adaquately prepare for our mock adventures. You had the details and treasure from the third set of encounters up before we had even had chance to split the treasure from the second set, we need a little more time to find out stride as an adventuring party then splitting the loot will be much faster and i'll be able to keep you up to date on the wizards out of combat activities as well.

The book is a separate issue.

You went to the glassworks when a friend went missing with a note saying she went to the glassworks. You get there, find goblins, her and her evil brother who has a personal journal saying that he's working with the goblins and an evil lady who is trying to free an evil creature who will help her take over the town, and that could happen at any time.

The way the brother got into the glassworks was through an old smugglers tunnel, which you likely discover when you are doing the glassworks quest.

The order you deal with these two issues varies from party to party, but you know from the glassworks on to the end of the book that you are "racing against the clock" of her finding and freeing the evil thing (which happens to be a barghast).

In real game, treasure is usually split as you go at the table in more or less real time.

I'm not telling people when to post, I'm just making the info available so people can be ready for the next stage.

Keep in mind I think everyone but you already has the info because they have the books.


Actually I don't have the books either -- I'm doing this mostly from memory from when I played hit or miss through the AP when it came out (job kept me out of play a lot).


The books can be found online in pdf format (of course you'd be of evil alignment to get them from anywhere other than Paizo's storefront). I really recommend investing in them, as it's actually an AWESOME adventure. I live in Ohio at the moment, but will be moving back to Massachusetts somewhat soon. Played through it with my Ohio group, and I'm already looking forward to getting my old gamers in Mass. back together and starting off by running through RotRL again. It requires some conversion to Pathfinder (a lot of the work is done online by others, though, as PFSRD has shown us), but it's just so fantastic at times that its worth the dough.


Ciretose, this is probably another thing that varies group to group but my groups do the accountant style of splitting and we never start actively using a magic item until its identified incase its cursed.

Most of my groups loot splitting happens when we get back to town unless we happen to pick up a sword of smashing that we identify and the figher wants to use until we can divide loot. The only things that tend to get split during adventure time are potions, scrolls and wands.

edit: just a note for Syl, the true strike iGo has in memory is a spec spell so cannot be changed for anything but a higher initiative.

Andoran

Egoish wrote:

Ciretose, this is probably another thing that varies group to group but my groups do the accountant style of splitting and we never start actively using a magic item until its identified incase its cursed.

Most of my groups loot splitting happens when we get back to town unless we happen to pick up a sword of smashing that we identify and the figher wants to use until we can divide loot. The only things that tend to get split during adventure time are potions, scrolls and wands.

edit: just a note for Syl, the true strike iGo has in memory is a spec spell so cannot be changed for anything but a higher initiative.

I've also been throwing it up in advance in case there is something that is usable in the quest itself, as sometimes happens. So far this hasn't really come up (you could argue maybe the wands) but it occasionally does.

How the party divides is a party decision. It is part of the experiment of course, but if I were the wizard I would be pointing out that my high int and detect magic are coming in handy identifying X.


I agree with Ciretose. Part of why Wizards are good is the fact that they can identify many magic items in a matter of minutes, without even memming Identify. How you guys decide to divvy the phat lewtz is up to the party, though. Parties I've been in almost always go with a "whoever the heck needs it" philosophy, then split evenly whatever is left to sell. We don't make characters pay out of their share for what they need in any way, as it goes to reason that each character being better benefits the whole party. If you "need" something and it replaces gear you already have, you toss that into the "loot pile" and it goes toward the sum that gets evenly distributed.

Players will even loan money with no issues. If the fighter only needs a grand to get a better sword, and the wizard has that lying around that he doesn't really need to spend on anything, he'll often just help the fighter out. Sometimes it gets paid back, sometimes it doesn't. Obviously, if you play a character that would never do that, then don't do it. I tend to play in "good guy" parties usually. Even in not-so-good-guy parties I've seen players loan money to "have someone in their debt". So it's kind of up to you guys. For instance, were I in the party, I'd chip money toward getting the primary melee guy a masterwork weapon. It's relatively little in the long run, but a fairly big boost now. Just me, though.

@Egoish: I forgot you were a divination specialist. My bad. I think I was still right on the skill front though :p If not, then double my bad. I still think a second mage armor is more "bang for the buck" than the Ray of Enfeeblement, but I'm not playing the character. Just my thoughts, tho.


When it comes to identifying items Salis actually has a better bonus -- he's +11 (+2 from bloodline arcana, +3 class skill, +2 ranks, +4 Int)...

Just slightly better than what iGo has at this point... unless iGo drops an identify spell on the item.

Level 3 is going to be a good level for Salis. He gets a bonus on most things that affect his bloodline spell (which is going to be ray of enfeeblement for this level) and he gets another first level spell in addition to another zero level spell (magic missile and message).

This level is also going to see a new feat for him which is going to be toughness I think. I would love to take spell penetration, combat casting but combat casting I can get from my bloodline at 7th level.

Skills are going to go up the same as last level.


Sylvanite wrote:
@Egoish: I forgot you were a divination specialist. My bad. I think I was still right on the skill front though :p If not, then double my bad. I still think a second mage armor is more "bang for the buck" than the Ray of Enfeeblement, but I'm not playing the character. Just my thoughts, tho.

I think your right on the skill front, he's ment to have knowledge local and i don't have it on his sheet. since he's doing the "what is it?" duty i just threw a load of knowledge skills on him for ease.

I didn't bother memorising a second mage armour since iGo can knock out a scroll of mage armour once a day even while adventuring so if Boghu needs a mage armour like today iGo can scroll him quite easily, and he also gets a 5% discount on any magic item he makes due to hedge magician. 11 gold 8 silver 8 copper for +4 armour for an hour is a fine trade until we can get a pearl of power.

We're playing a bit lose and fast with the outside of combat portions of the adventure but i think any god-wizard would dedicate their first few levels treasure to getting/creating more spells and scrolls then picking up a blessed book as soon as possible.

Salis has a really good spellcraft score which in this party means he is slightly better than iGo at identifying items (handy since if one of us fails the other can have a go) but in a party with a "standard" sorcerer spellcraft would not be as high a priority so identifying these items as you go which is another comparison worth noting for the wizard vs sorcerer debate.


Rock on. Just make sure you mention that you're making those scrolls and casting them on the monk, as it plays into my judgment when I rank things. 20 AC vs. 16 AC is a big difference at this point on your tank and would factor into the rankings somewhat.


Sylvanite wrote:
Rock on. Just make sure you mention that you're making those scrolls and casting them on the monk, as it plays into my judgment when I rank things. 20 AC vs. 16 AC is a big difference at this point on your tank and would factor into the rankings somewhat.

I didn't mention it since we have only just worked out the treasure split from the glassworks, and i'm not entirely sure how much crafting and spell purchasing i can get away with.

I'm thinking of crafting another silent image scroll, a couple or three mage armour and a spare grease. I suspect that by now i will have used one of my enlarge person scrolls so i will be down to one, i'm not going to recraft that though as soon we will be getting level 2 spells and i can drop colour spray for enlarge person in memory.

Lets call that 5 scrolls of 1st level spells 11.875gp each. 59.375gp (60gp), that leaves iGo 190gp to spend on purchasing and scribing additional spells into his spellbook. that means he could purchase while in town 2 2nd level spells and 4 1st level spells for his spellbook.

(just going to take a moment out here to pimp out some android apps that i have on my phone, the paid for version of pfsrd and summoner are both excellent value at about £1.50 each, pfsrd is basicly every core rulebook and is very searchable. I also have a paid for app that cost 99p called pathfinder spellbook which is basicly every spell ever written by paizo sorted by class and filterable with school, subschool energy type, duration etc. one of the best apps i have ever seen)

iGo wants to pick up, charm person, identify, prot evil and reduce person. the spellcraft DC is 16 and it would take 4 hours to get all of these spells in his spellbook.
he would also try to get glitterdust and invisibility. DC 17, 4 hours.
(remember his prescience 8/day power makes these auto passes as he can scribe when he knows his next roll will be a pass)

I've not added all this onto his character sheet as yet but it would leave him with around 10gp for rations and bits which we don't really seem to be tracking anyway. Let me know if anyone has a problem with those being added on and i'll update his sheet.

Andoran

Sylvanite wrote:
Rock on. Just make sure you mention that you're making those scrolls and casting them on the monk, as it plays into my judgment when I rank things. 20 AC vs. 16 AC is a big difference at this point on your tank and would factor into the rankings somewhat.

And then removing them from inventory...

Most of the god wizard conversations tend to make assumptions about always having scrolls, while forgetting you had to make them at the level you were and not use them somewhere along the line to have them at that moment.

Also, you have to get them out (since everyone is sans haversack this is an issues, and even then it is a move action).

And also, let us all remember the haunted oracle is kind of hosed when using scrolls, wands, etc...

Andoran

@egoish

I think your formula is off

The formula is 12.5 X level of spell X Caster level.

So a 1st level spell is going to be 25 gp for you (12.5 x 1 (1st level spell) x 2 (2nd level caster)

Also keep track in your inventory what level and save DC the scroll is, and if you do it on adventure days you lose that spell slot.

Andoran

In answer to the gameplay questions (again, please keep discussion over here) the dungeon is dark. I will try to remember to include light in the discussion going forward.

Judges, please add any wrinkles you think I omitted since Egoish and Abraham don't have the books (although I am with Sylvanite in recommending you acquire them as, A) They are really good and B) it will get even harder to explain thoroughly in a summary when the combat gets more complex at higher levels.


ciretose wrote:

@egoish

I think your formula is off

The formula is 12.5 X level of spell X Caster level.

So a 1st level spell is going to be 25 gp for you (12.5 x 1 (1st level spell) x 2 (2nd level caster)

Also keep track in your inventory what level and save DC the scroll is, and if you do it on adventure days you lose that spell slot.

That's if he wants to do it at a higher caster level -- he doesn't have to.

Andoran

Abraham spalding wrote:
ciretose wrote:

@egoish

I think your formula is off

The formula is 12.5 X level of spell X Caster level.

So a 1st level spell is going to be 25 gp for you (12.5 x 1 (1st level spell) x 2 (2nd level caster)

Also keep track in your inventory what level and save DC the scroll is, and if you do it on adventure days you lose that spell slot.

That's if he wants to do it at a higher caster level -- he doesn't have to.

Where does it say that? You are functionally storing your casting of a spell onto the scroll.

A 2nd level caster's mage armor will last longer than 1st level casters mage armor, for example.

If there is a citation I don't know about it, let me know and link to it.


ciretose wrote:


Where does it say that? You are functionally storing your casting of a spell onto the scroll.

A 2nd level caster's mage armor will last longer than 1st level casters mage armor, for example.

If there is a citation I don't know about it, let me know and link to it.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html

Third paragraph down says a crafter can make an item at a lower caster level, but not lower than minimum needed to cast the spell (3rd CL for a 2nd level spell by a wizard).


Right here

You don't have to craft to your caster level, you just have to be sure to meet or exceed the minimum caster level.

Now there are plenty of situations where crafting at a higher caster level is a great idea -- false life, resist energy, overland flight, and spectral hand are all good examples of this, but for somethings simply sticking to the lowest caster level is good too.

Sczarni

Male Cuddly L'il Fuzzy Hamster Psion (Telepath) 20

Figure I should allocate a few gps for mage armor scrolls.

As far as when to cast, if we think an area can be cleared in less than an hour, or if it seems particularly nast, then is the time.

That's why I want a pearl. Once that comes by, wizard can just zap me & himself at the same time.


Ciretose does make decent points about the lack of any days with which to craft these scrolls at this point. Later on, however, I expect it will be quite a bit more useful.

Andoran

Abraham spalding wrote:

Right here

You don't have to craft to your caster level, you just have to be sure to meet or exceed the minimum caster level.

Now there are plenty of situations where crafting at a higher caster level is a great idea -- false life, resist energy, overland flight, and spectral hand are all good examples of this, but for somethings simply sticking to the lowest caster level is good too.

I stand corrected.

Make sure you mark them at the caster level and the save DC.


Save DC will always be the minimum since they are items.

Quick reference:
SL - DC
0th - 10
1st - 11
2nd - 13
3rd - 14
4th - 16
5th - 17
6th - 19
7th - 20
8th - 22
9th - 23

The only way this gets broken is with specific class features that none of us have.

Andoran

Abraham spalding wrote:

Save DC will always be the minimum since they are items.

Quick reference:
SL - DC
0th - 10
1st - 11
2nd - 13
3rd - 14
4th - 16
5th - 17
6th - 19
7th - 20
8th - 22
9th - 23

The only way this gets broken is with specific class features that none of us have.

Learn something new every day :)


The wizard can allocate 4 hours per day for crafting even while he's adventuring so making a few scrolls is easy enough, if i were crafting double figures of scrolls i would expect limits to come into effect but scroll crafting is very easy as long as you have a flat surface and expensive ink...

keeping track of the scrolls won't be a problem, from now on when i use one i will post it seperately at the bottom of my posts and i'll delete it off the stat block.

the oracle just won't be using scrolls or wands in combat to be honest, between a shield and a morningstar i think thats enough stuff to carry.

Andoran

Egoish wrote:

The wizard can allocate 4 hours per day for crafting even while he's adventuring so making a few scrolls is easy enough, if i were crafting double figures of scrolls i would expect limits to come into effect but scroll crafting is very easy as long as you have a flat surface and expensive ink...

keeping track of the scrolls won't be a problem, from now on when i use one i will post it seperately at the bottom of my posts and i'll delete it off the stat block.

the oracle just won't be using scrolls or wands in combat to be honest, between a shield and a morningstar i think thats enough stuff to carry.

I would say more, actually. These are relatively short adventure days, and so far all based in one city.

At this point I would think the dungeon took maybe an hour, and the rest of the day you would be prepping for the 1 day trip to Thistletop.

I know this is info you don't have, but I hope you understand that it is challenging to try to summarize a 90 page AP that is itself a summary :)


m half-elven Lich 15 DM/10 Grandmaster DM

Where is the link to the monk build?.
We are grading with letters: A, B, C, and D?


wraithstrike wrote:

Where is the link to the monk build?.

We are grading with letters: A, B, C, and D?

We've been giving a letter grade to the group as a whole, and ranking people 1-4 in terms of who was the MVPc for the encounter-day.

All of the builds should be in the profiles of the Aliases being used by people in the gameplay thread.

Andoran

wraithstrike wrote:

Where is the link to the monk build?.

We are grading with letters: A, B, C, and D?

He's got a google doc link in the description.

The whole party gets a grade vs a "classic" party of the same level, but each player is ranked 1 through 4 for their relative value in each encounter.


Male Orc Expert 5

Some thoughts Based on what I've seen so far.

Day 1:

Overall I think if the group was smart they can pull it off. The monk would get all the spotlight however since he is the closest they have to a dedicated beatstick. The wizard, if conservative, could make the final encounter of the day incredibly easy.

This day is all Wizard/Monk. Even if he doesn't color spray he could simply enlarge the monk (which by the looks of thigns he isnt since it's not memorized) and sit back plinking things with his crossbow.

The oracle has second place because she can keep things alive and gives a bonus top the people plinking away at things. Overall this is very doable with some smart tactics.

Glassworks:

This is one of those irritating encounters because its a place wiht a lot of rooms but two encounters. When my group went through we faced just one big encounter as all the bad guys were lumped in one spot. This proved meaningless however as our half orc rogue simply critted the bad guy with his axe as soon as he got near him with a nonlethal blow and damn near killed him.

This is a case where the group can easily take advantage of the cramped quarters if they can and slap Cause Fear and Color Spray on groups of goblins rendering them pointless while an enlarged and blessed monk goes to work on the bad guy. Grease would not be a good idea since it's like mr Monk/Rogue archer can make that save without a whole lot of trouble.

A lucky crit from anyone can easily drop our main man here so I don't see the party having too much trouble here as long as they don't allow themselves to get swamped in goblins.

The runewle is slightly harder, the quasit will be annoying but the payoff would be huge for the group (a +2 weapon). The trouble is the group has little to know way to negate her visibility (yet) and thus far have not encountered such enemies. By this point it's likely the group will have expended some spells on the other encounters and is in danger of running dry meaning they may need to retreat for now. That can be a problem if she decides to create more sinspawn or release the zombies from their pits.

I actually kind of worry for the group's future in thistletop. While the AC's themselves are not particularly high they have few ways to bypass some of the encounters to simplify it. The wizard may end up going through quite a few scrolls before the end.

No, what's more worrying is the monk's relatively low AC in comparison to some of the attack bonuses being tossed about. Worse, is that some enemies can possibly escape into other parts of the dungeon further coimplicating encounters. The monk is really going to need every buff he can get his hands on not to get curbstomped by the beefier encounters.

Overall I think it's possible but it'll be touch and go at points.


Invisibility isn't that huge:

"Readied action, nail the quasit with "x" when it reappears."

The zombies in the pit seems to be something that would be taken out without any real issues, just fish in the barrel and I don't think there is any reason to leave them undead.


Male Orc Expert 5
Abraham spalding wrote:

Invisibility isn't that huge:

"Readied action, nail the quasit with "x" when it reappears."

It's huge when the only person that can see it is the half orc while all of you blind humans are huddled around your light spells. The runewell is a pitch black place inhabited by critters who can universally see in the dark. :D

Worse, the quasit can deal with you by not bothering to deal with you. Flying away and fast healing or setting up ambushes in other rooms. That kind of thing.

On the bright side it's very hard to impossible for her to personally kill even this group. So the trick really isn't surviving her.

The zombies are, as you say, free exp. I mention them as a factor only if they ahve not been encountered yet when they alert the quasit.

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