Feels like a dumb question. It's listed as such... But, I'm wondering about RAW vs. RAI. For example, how would a two-bladed sword weilding Two-Handed Fighter work out?
Some fighters focus their efforts on finding the biggest, heaviest, most imposing weapon they can find and training to manage and harness the weight of their massive weapons for maximum impact. These fighting school benefits only apply when using two-handed weapons.
Shattering Strike (Ex): At 2nd level, a two-handed fighter gains a +1 bonus to CMB and CMD on sunder attempts and on damage rolls made against objects. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.
Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces armor training 1.
Weapon Training (Ex): As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee weapons.
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Piledriver (Ex): At 11th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter can make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon. If the attack hits, he may make a bull rush or trip combat maneuver against the target of his attack as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Greater Power Attack (Ex): At 15th level, when using Power Attack with a two-handed melee weapon, the bonus damage from Power Attack is doubled (+100%) instead of increased by half (+50%). This ability replaces armor training 4.
Devastating Blow (Ex): At 19th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter may make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon at a –5 penalty. If the attack hits, it is treated as a critical threat. Special weapon abilities that activate only on a critical hit do not activate if this critical hit is confirmed. This ability replaces armor mastery.
If a double weapon works with every ability here, (granted some will only trigger when you take a standard action) then perhaps this is the best archetype for a double weapon user. Take a look at Backswing, for one.
...so? What do you think? :/
Since a double weapon can be used as a two handed weapon i don't why those abilities wouldn't work with a double weapon.
Gah, maybe I should take more time before I make a post. Double weapons are confusing in general, because it's both one weapon and two weapons; it's a two-handed weapon, it's a one handed weapon, it's a one handed weapon and a light weapon... Well, here's the relevant text.
Can y'all make something of it?
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As I understand it, if you're using both ends of a double weapon, it's treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (using TWF rules) instead of as a single two-handed weapon. To use it as a two-handed weapon, you only get to attack with one end of it and don't get the extra attack that TWF normally grants.
As I understand it, if you're using both ends of a double weapon, it's treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (using TWF rules) instead of as a single two-handed weapon. To use it as a two-handed weapon, you only get to attack with one end of it and don't get the extra attack that TWF normally grants.
Right, I suppose the Double descriptor would supersede whatever category the weapon is normally in.
In practice, is a double weapon ever treated as a two-handed weapon? Odd that it's placed under that section.
...or is it that it can be wielded as a two-handed weapon OR a one-handed weapon, your choice? (Predominantly for standard action attacks.)
As I understand it, if you're using both ends of a double weapon, it's treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (using TWF rules) instead of as a single two-handed weapon. To use it as a two-handed weapon, you only get to attack with one end of it and don't get the extra attack that TWF normally grants.Right, I suppose the Double descriptor would supersede whatever category the weapon is normally in.
In practice, is a double weapon ever treated as a two-handed weapon? Odd that it's placed under that section.
...or is it that it can be wielded as a two-handed weapon OR a one-handed weapon, your choice? (Predominantly for standard action attacks.)
Basically, this.
You can use a double-weapon as a two-handed weapon (only attacks with one end) -- say, like because you've moved and can only take one attack, or you're trying to power-attack your way through damage resistance.... Or, you can use both ends, in which case it counts as one-handed weapon(s).
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As I understand it, if you're using both ends of a double weapon, it's treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (using TWF rules) instead of as a single two-handed weapon. To use it as a two-handed weapon, you only get to attack with one end of it and don't get the extra attack that TWF normally grants.Right, I suppose the Double descriptor would supersede whatever category the weapon is normally in.
In practice, is a double weapon ever treated as a two-handed weapon? Odd that it's placed under that section.
...or is it that it can be wielded as a two-handed weapon OR a one-handed weapon, your choice? (Predominantly for standard action attacks.)
Actually, there are two entries for double weapons in the Equipment chapter. The one under Special (which itself is under Weapon Qualities) says you have the option of wielding it one-handed. The one under Melee and Ranged Weapons says you can wield them two-handed.
This appears to be a contradiction, and I'm not sure what to do with it. But I think it makes the most sense to treat them as either 2H or 1H/L depending on whether or not you're TWFing.
As I understand it, if you're using both ends of a double weapon, it's treated as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (using TWF rules) instead of as a single two-handed weapon. To use it as a two-handed weapon, you only get to attack with one end of it and don't get the extra attack that TWF normally grants.Right, I suppose the Double descriptor would supersede whatever category the weapon is normally in.
In practice, is a double weapon ever treated as a two-handed weapon? Odd that it's placed under that section.
...or is it that it can be wielded as a two-handed weapon OR a one-handed weapon, your choice? (Predominantly for standard action attacks.)
Actually, there are two entries for double weapons in the Equipment chapter. The one under Special (which itself is under Weapon Qualities) says you have the option of wielding it one-handed. The one under Melee and Ranged Weapons says you can wield them two-handed.
This appears to be a contradiction, and I'm not sure what to do with it. But I think it makes the most sense to treat them as either 2H or 1H/L depending on whether or not you're TWFing.
So there is. I think it's both-ish? Probably a redundancy. It can be wielded one-handed, but if you use both hands, you can deal 1.5 strength damage, as with any one-handed weapon. I think that's what was trying to be said.
...but yeah, more clarity would be nice.
Random side note: If you can indeed use it one-handed, it would be interesting to see a character wielding two double weapons simultaneously, perhaps dropping one of them in the middle of the fight depending on what kind of monster you're fighting. (Have a bunch of different enchantments on each blade) Expensive, weird, but interesting?
You can't weild a double weapon using one hand, that's why you need a feat to weild a staff in one hand.
So there is. I think it's both-ish? Probably a redundancy. It can be wielded one-handed, but if you use both hands, you can deal 1.5 strength damage, as with any one-handed weapon. I think that's what was trying to be said.
...but yeah, more clarity would be nice.
Random side note: If you can indeed use it one-handed, it would be interesting to see a character wielding two double weapons simultaneously, perhaps dropping one of them in the middle of the fight depending on what kind of monster you're fighting. (Have a bunch of different enchantments on each blade) Expensive, weird, but interesting?
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
According to this, there are three ways to use a double weapon: Using Both Ends, Using One End Two-Handed, and Using One End One Handed.
If you use it as a double-weapon, it is treated as a one-handed and light weapon.
If you use One End Two Handed, you get to pick what side you attack with, and do 1.5x Strength Damage, but can use different ends for different attacks (iterative, AoO, etc).
If you use One Handed, you have to pick what end you're using for a given round, then use only that end, with 1.0x Strength Damage... but you do have a hand free for other fun (shield, spell casting, grabbing stuff).
Lots of versatility with double-weapons.
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If you use One End Two Handed, you get to pick what side you attack with, and do 1.5x Strength Damage, but can use different ends for different attacks (iterative, AoO, etc).
...
If you use One Handed, you have to pick what end you're using for a given round, then use only that end, with 1.0x Strength Damage...
To make sure I'm following you, where exactly are you getting that bit? Look:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
A double weapon can be wielded as a one-handed weapon, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
I was just about to point out how the 2H entry and the 1H entry both use the same wording about "one end per round", to contrast with your above-quoted statement.
Then I noticed something else entirely.
Look at the 2H entry, above, re-quoted below with different bolding:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Okay, what?
I'm pretty sure something went wrong somewhere.
You can't use a double weapon in one hand, this was clarified when the feat Quarterstaff Master came out. The "A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." part of the rule means IF somehow you have the ability to use a double weapon in one hand you can use only one end, if your question is how someone could weild a double weapon in one hand before the feat Quarterstaff Master the answer is someone using a double weapon smaller than him (for example a medium creature using a small staff).
Edit: ninja'd by leo
The one-handed text is something of a holdover sage advice/errata correction to make it clear that just because you can wield the "two-handed" double weapon in one hand due to size, doesn't mean you can attack with both ends, with a single hand. (And particularly that you can't dual-wield smaller double weapons and make attacks with all four ends).
It could use cleaning up, since it appears to have been edited for clarity towards one respect (what happens if you use it as a two-handed weapon), without being aware of the other reason for the language.
To answer the OP: Only Shattering Strike would apply if you're wielding the double weapon as two weapons (1H/L).
Lots of Stuff
I was just about to point out how the 2H entry and the 1H entry both use the same wording about "one end per round", to contrast with your above-quoted statement.
Then I noticed something else entirely.
Look at the 2H entry, above, re-quoted below with different bolding:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Okay, what?
I'm pretty sure something went wrong somewhere.
My line of thought came from the second paragraph of my initial quote:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
I broke this out into two sections: Using the weapon Two-Handed, and using it One-Handed.
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it.
Pretty straight forward. Due to PF's lack of "handedness", either side of the double-weapon can be used in an attack, just like someone with two different longswords in hand can choose which one to use in a normal attack. All of the normal two-handed rules should apply, thus the 1.5x STR to Damage.
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
This tells me that a double-weapon can:
- be used one-handed.- can only have one end used per round, when used one-handed. Otherwise, the part after the hyphen wouldn't be there.
As a corollary to the last point, someone using a double-weapon TWO handed should be able to select which end they want to use for any given attack.
You can't use a double weapon in one hand, this was clarified when the feat Quarterstaff Master came out. The "A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." part of the rule means IF somehow you have the ability to use a double weapon in one hand you can use only one end, if your question is how someone could weild a double weapon in one hand before the feat Quarterstaff Master the answer is someone using a double weapon smaller than him (for example a medium creature using a small staff).
That needs some clearer language in the PRD then. I see, based on the equipment chart, that all the "double" weapons are considered two-handed.
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This tells me that a double-weapon can:
- be used one-handed.
- can only have one end used per round, when used one-handed. Otherwise, the part after the hyphen wouldn't be there.As a corollary to the last point, someone using a double-weapon TWO handed should be able to select which end they want to use for any given attack.
Sure seems to me like suddenly switching from talking about 2H to 1H in the span of one sentence within a single paragraph without any sort of transitional phrase sounds more like a typo than a list of various options.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
This tells me that a double-weapon can:
- be used one-handed.
- can only have one end used per round, when used one-handed. Otherwise, the part after the hyphen wouldn't be there.As a corollary to the last point, someone using a double-weapon TWO handed should be able to select which end they want to use for any given attack.
Sure seems to me like suddenly switching from talking about 2H to 1H in the span of one sentence within a single paragraph without any sort of transitional phrase sounds more like a typo than a list of various options.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Well, that's the way the paragraph reads. The first sentence specifically mentions THF, and the second sentence specifically mentions One-Handed. If that's not what was intended, they need to edit the PRD. I prefer to think of this paragraph as "Non-Traditional Ways to use a Double-Weapon."
The debate about using a normal double-weapon in one hand has been resolved at this point, based on Leo's comment (needing to use a small double-weapon, or Quarterstaff Master, for that sentence to be invoked), but the part about needing to pick an end is specifically part of that sentence, and does nothing to modify the THF sentence.
You can't use a double weapon in one hand, this was clarified when the feat Quarterstaff Master came out. The "A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." part of the rule means IF somehow you have the ability to use a double weapon in one hand you can use only one end, if your question is how someone could weild a double weapon in one hand before the feat Quarterstaff Master the answer is someone using a double weapon smaller than him (for example a medium creature using a small staff).That needs some clearer language in the PRD then. I see, based on the equipment chart, that all the "double" weapons are considered two-handed.
Yes it does, the reason it is there are those mentioned by Majuba and although i can't find the link now but i think that i remember Jason saying that they will change it at the first chance (although i might remember incorectly).
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If that's not what was intended, they need to edit the PRD.
Last I heard, they don't update the PRD until they do another printing of the book(s).
I prefer to think of this paragraph as "Non-Traditional Ways to use a Double-Weapon."
An interesting way to look at the paragraph that defines what double weapons are in the first place.
The debate about using a normal double-weapon in one hand has been resolved at this point, based on Leo's comment (needing to use a small double-weapon, or Quarterstaff Master, for that sentence to be invoked), but the part about needing to pick an end is specifically part of that sentence, and does nothing to modify the THF sentence.
Indeed, I agree. :)
So we're back with a wizard choosing a quarterstaff as their arcane bond being unable to cast spells properly. *le sigh* Hopefully the erratas will come someday...
On another note, anyone know how the Taiaha works? It's a primitive weapon from Ultimate Combat that's listed as a one-handed double weapon. First of it's kind, I guess.
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So we're back with a wizard choosing a quarterstaff as their arcane bond being unable to cast spells properly. *le sigh* Hopefully the erratas will come someday...
Just because it takes two hands to attack with it doesn't mean you can't carry it in one hand while casting a spell with the other.
On another note, anyone know how the Taiaha works? It's a primitive weapon from Ultimate Combat that's listed as a one-handed double weapon. First of it's kind, I guess.
Don't expect weapons from UC to make sense. There are nearly half a dozen metal weapons, for instance, that have a " - " for their weight. So how much does a mithral version cost?
Yeah. Exactly.
So we're back with a wizard choosing a quarterstaff as their arcane bond being unable to cast spells properly. *le sigh* Hopefully the erratas will come someday...
On another note, anyone know how the Taiaha works? It's a primitive weapon from Ultimate Combat that's listed as a one-handed double weapon. First of it's kind, I guess.
Actually this is a somewhat gray area because the arcane bond ability says that you can pick a staff (and is separated from the weapon choice) as your bond, so my guess is that you can choose to take a staff (that means that you can enchant it as per the feat craft staff on it and not as the craft magic arms and armor) so you can cast spell while weilding in one hand because magic staves require one hand to weild them.
I may be wrong, but it feels like the OP is asking to clarify if:
Would the Two Handed Fighters Wpn training apply if the fighter wielded it 2handed for standardaction attacks (YES) and then wielded it as TWF on full attacks (NO)
also would BACKSWING work when TWF with it (NO)
Good idea but falls down in practice because when you TWF it is no longer a 2handed weapon, it is treated as a 1h/light weapon.
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Actually this is a somewhat gray area because the arcane bond ability says that you can pick a staff (and is separated from the weapon choice) as your bond, so my guess is that you can choose to take a staff (that means that you can enchant it as per the feat craft staff on it and not as the craft magic arms and armor) so you can cast spell while weilding in one hand because magic staves require one hand to weild them.So we're back with a wizard choosing a quarterstaff as their arcane bond being unable to cast spells properly. *le sigh* Hopefully the erratas will come someday...
On another note, anyone know how the Taiaha works? It's a primitive weapon from Ultimate Combat that's listed as a one-handed double weapon. First of it's kind, I guess.
This came up several years ago (you can look for the thread by James Jacobs). The notation that needs to be made is that a quarterstaff is not the same as a staff. They may sound like the same item, but the staff is more akin to a club, which of course can be wielded in one hand (which is why the iconic Ezren uses one).
You could wield a double weapon such as a double bladed sword in one hand, just as you could attempt to wield a great sword in one hand... you would take penalties because the weapon would be in effect be improperly sized.
I think that 'wielding a double weapon in one hand can only attack with one end line' is just to keep someone from min maxing, soaking the penalties, and walking forward with two double bladed swords like a troll faced airplane.
You could wield a double weapon such as a double bladed sword in one hand, just as you could attempt to wield a great sword in one hand... you would take penalties because the weapon would be in effect be improperly sized.
I think that 'wielding a double weapon in one hand can only attack with one end line' is just to keep someone from min maxing, soaking the penalties, and walking forward with two double bladed swords like a troll faced airplane.
Ehmmmm you can't weild a greatsword sized for you in one hand, you can weild a greatsword smaller than you in one hand by taking some penalties.
Ehmmmm you can't weild a greatsword sized for you in one hand, you can weild a greatsword smaller than you in one hand by taking some penalties.You could wield a double weapon such as a double bladed sword in one hand, just as you could attempt to wield a great sword in one hand... you would take penalties because the weapon would be in effect be improperly sized.
I think that 'wielding a double weapon in one hand can only attack with one end line' is just to keep someone from min maxing, soaking the penalties, and walking forward with two double bladed swords like a troll faced airplane.
Exactly. And where I've seen the topic under discussion stated the most clearly, they specify that they are referring to a creature carrying a double weapon sized for a creature smaller than them. I believe the specific example might have been an ogre carrying a medium-sized two-bladed sword.
However, I have no citation to provide. At least, not yet.