Antipaladin Dread vanguard thinking of adding Grave Knight


Advice


So here is what I have so far angel aasamir.
So I need a few ideas to maximize the abilities of both.
Lucifer is only level 3 so the word is his for the killing.


Someone help plz!


You mean you have the Dread Vanguard Archetype and you want to add the Grave Knight Template ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/graveknight-cr- 2 ) ?
Or you mean add the Knight of the Sepulcher Archetype on top ?

Because those two archetypes replace aura of sin at 14th so it's not possible to take both !

Will need some info about your character, like stats, Feats etc !


The dread vanguard archetype and the grave knight template
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 16
Feats thus far extra corruption and ability focus corruption


Oook !
So after your rise as an Armored Undead Menace you will have :

Str 22
Dex 16
Con -
Int 14
Sag 15
Car 20

and

Extra Touch of Corruption
Ability Focus ( Touch of Corruption )
Improved Initiative
Toughness
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack

So much potential !

Enchant your weapon(s) of choice with the Conductive ability to get
Touch of Corruption damage on Melee attacks
Look for Channel Smite Feat to add your Channel Energy Damage too.
If you have the open space required to use your phantom mount take
Spirited Charge and buy a Lance.
Maybe if there are a lot of Good Guys with Positive Energy to go
against pick Ability Focus ( Sacrilegious Aura ).
If you can choose the element associated with your death choose fire
so you are immune to the 3 major elements of blasting, leaving only
acid ( buy some resistance to it or get one ally to cast Protection
/ Resist Energy ).

Enchant your Armor to the maximum and don't forget the Impervious quality or anything that makes it harder to destroy, your DM will
try to Sunder it sooner or later ...

P.S. for the Aasimar part of the Character you could take the Angelic Blood ( take it before you get to Undead,after you can't ) Flesh ( Steel ) and Wings for extra ways of dealing with trouble, or the Channel Force feats to get your enemies in bad places !


Is the GM aware of how you are building the character? Templates are not normal or typically available to PC characters with out specific class/class abilities granting them. I'd really clear this with your GM first.

Also graveknight isn't even available until you have 5HD AND as it adjusts the CR by two, you won't get access to it until you are 7th level at least. 5 levels (HD) +2 CR = at least 7th level comparable power level. If you were to get it at 5th you would be significantly stronger than all other characters your level, so mechanically you should have to get to 7th and then lose 2 levels when you gain the template to bring you back on par with the power level. And truthfully, Graveknight is under CR'd for PC use, which means the level adjustment should be higher (probably 3, maybe 4 levels).


Maybe he will use the creation ritual, so it's much like a quest reward for all the hard work ( ! seriously 13 Aasimar are difficult to find !) so
his transformation will occur at 11th !


Goblin13 wrote:

Maybe he will use the creation ritual, so it's much like a quest reward for all the hard work ( ! seriously 13 Aasimar are difficult to find !) so

his transformation will occur at 11th !

That is all well and good if they want to explain it that way, it still isn't something typically allowed to to players and really needs to be allowed by the GM.

Taking liberties with the rules is generally frowned upon by groups, no matter how much you love the concept. It is called twisting or bending them, which usually leads to broken builds. Which is why I am refraining from giving advice as any advice might be wasted if the concept isn't allowed by the GM. As well as the concept being available much later than the OP seems to think it should happen, they are only 3rd level, not even to the half way point of it even being a possible option.

The point to be taken away from this is, did you talk to the GM to see if it is possible? If so how is it happening (level, etc)? This is all important information if you want help as certain levels have different options to build towards.


Goblin13 wrote:

Oook !

So after your rise as an Armored Undead Menace you will have :

Str 22
Dex 16
Con -
Int 14
Sag 15
Car 20

and

Extra Touch of Corruption
Ability Focus ( Touch of Corruption )
Improved Initiative
Toughness
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack

So much potential !

Enchant your weapon(s) of choice with the Conductive ability to get
Touch of Corruption damage on Melee attacks
Look for Channel Smite Feat to add your Channel Energy Damage too.

If you have the open space required to use your phantom mount take
Spirited Charge and buy a Lance.
Maybe if there are a lot of Good Guys with Positive Energy to go
against pick Ability Focus ( Sacrilegious Aura ).
If you can choose the element associated with your death choose fire
so you are immune to the 3 major elements of blasting, leaving only
acid ( buy some resistance to it or get one ally to cast Protection
/ Resist Energy ).

Enchant your Armor to the maximum and don't forget the Impervious quality or anything that makes it harder to destroy, your DM will
try to Sunder it sooner or later ...

P.S. for the Aasimar part of the Character you could take the Angelic Blood ( take it before you get to Undead,after you can't ) Flesh ( Steel ) and Wings for extra ways of dealing with trouble, or the Channel Force feats to get your enemies in bad places !

I didn't even consider impervious or channel smite


Skylancer4 wrote:
Goblin13 wrote:

Maybe he will use the creation ritual, so it's much like a quest reward for all the hard work ( ! seriously 13 Aasimar are difficult to find !) so

his transformation will occur at 11th !

That is all well and good if they want to explain it that way, it still isn't something typically allowed to to players and really needs to be allowed by the GM.

Taking liberties with the rules is generally frowned upon by groups, no matter how much you love the concept. It is called twisting or bending them, which usually leads to broken builds. Which is why I am refraining from giving advice as any advice might be wasted if the concept isn't allowed by the GM. As well as the concept being available much later than the OP seems to think it should happen, they are only 3rd level, not even to the half way point of it even being a possible option.

The point to be taken away from this is, did you talk to the GM to see if it is possible? If so how is it happening (level, etc)? This is all important information if you want help as certain levels have different options to build towards.

The GM knows of the build and grave knight is not a possiblity until much later around level 9 is when the ritual will the executed. I'm just trying to refine the character beforehand so I can wrap my mind around the over all power of what I am making.


Some other questions :

- What weapons do you use ? 2-handed, Weapon and Shield ? Weapon and free hand for Touch of Corrption ?

- Ask your DM if you can use this feat http://thatboomerkid.tumblr.com/post/96072305116/most-agonizing-of-corrupti on-pathfinder

( The feats for Antipaladins on that site are great ! )


Goblin13 wrote:

Some other questions :

- What weapons do you use ? 2-handed, Weapon and Shield ? Weapon and free hand for Touch of Corrption ?

- Ask your DM if you can use this feat http://thatboomerkid.tumblr.com/post/96072305116/most-agonizing-of-corrupti on-pathfinder

( The feats for Antipaladins on that site are great ! )

+1 earth breaker


Killitnow!?! wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
Goblin13 wrote:

Maybe he will use the creation ritual, so it's much like a quest reward for all the hard work ( ! seriously 13 Aasimar are difficult to find !) so

his transformation will occur at 11th !

That is all well and good if they want to explain it that way, it still isn't something typically allowed to to players and really needs to be allowed by the GM.

Taking liberties with the rules is generally frowned upon by groups, no matter how much you love the concept. It is called twisting or bending them, which usually leads to broken builds. Which is why I am refraining from giving advice as any advice might be wasted if the concept isn't allowed by the GM. As well as the concept being available much later than the OP seems to think it should happen, they are only 3rd level, not even to the half way point of it even being a possible option.

The point to be taken away from this is, did you talk to the GM to see if it is possible? If so how is it happening (level, etc)? This is all important information if you want help as certain levels have different options to build towards.

The GM knows of the build and grave knight is not a possiblity until much later around level 9 is when the ritual will the executed. I'm just trying to refine the character beforehand so I can wrap my mind around the over all power of what I am making.

The GM knows what I plan to do hell it was his idea in the first place.


Killitnow!?! wrote:


The GM knows of the build and grave knight is not a possiblity until much later around level 9 is when the ritual will the executed. I'm just trying to refine the character beforehand so I can wrap my mind around the over all power of what I am making.

That being the case, do you happen to be running Way of the Wicked? I just ask because that was the adventure path I ran my graveknight antipaladin in. Also are you totally set on the Dread Vanguard archetype? Losing spells, is... Painful. And most archetypes honestly offer very little that your template won't overshadow.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Killitnow!?! wrote:


The GM knows of the build and grave knight is not a possiblity until much later around level 9 is when the ritual will the executed. I'm just trying to refine the character beforehand so I can wrap my mind around the over all power of what I am making.
That being the case, do you happen to be running Way of the Wicked? I just ask because that was the adventure path I ran my graveknight antipaladin in. Also are you totally set on the Dread Vanguard archetype? Losing spells, is... Painful. And most archetypes honestly offer very little that your template won't overshadow.

No we are running a home grown continent destroyer and no but dread vanguards auras, the ability to place them around the field and the fact that they compliment eachother has a lot of appeal to me. And as the only real tank/support I figured it would help the party

But I'm open to other archetypes since Vangaurd hasn't kicked in


I honestly just wouldn't do an archetype.

There is a guide to paladin/antipaladin builds, given what you get from the template: huge STR bump, CHA to saves, HP, spells, Toughness, and free additional damage to weapons... I would suggest going 2h, reach or archery and focusing on STR, DEX and CHA. Read the guide for spell selections.

The more attacks made, the more damage you can add with your Channel Destruction. Archery allows for full attack actions with a composite bow (+STR mod) regularly, reach allows for AoOs so more attacks outside your attack action. 2h is the most basic and least flashy, but it takes advantage of the STR bump.


Skylancer4 wrote:

I honestly just wouldn't do an archetype.

There is a guide to paladin/antipaladin builds, given what you get from the template: huge STR bump, CHA to saves, HP, spells, Toughness, and free additional damage to weapons... I would suggest going 2h, reach or archery and focusing on STR, DEX and CHA. Read the guide for spell selections.

The more attacks made, the more damage you can add with your Channel Destruction. Archery allows for full attack actions with a composite bow (+STR mod) regularly, reach allows for AoOs so more attacks outside your attack action. 2h is the most basic and least flashy, but it takes advantage of the STR bump.

Where can I find the build guide?

But I'm not to worried about spells, we have a rakshasa inquisitor and a tiefling witch to cover spells. But it is worth it to check out the spell selection help.
Also my Wis is trash.


Also do you know any armor special ability that can repress auras similar to how angelskin
Functions?


Dread vanguard is hella fun. I highly recommend it over a vanilla anti paladin.


Killitnow!?! wrote:

Where can I find the build guide?
But I'm not to worried about spells, we have a rakshasa inquisitor and a tiefling witch to cover spells. But it is worth it to check out the spell selection help.
Also my Wis is trash.

It is a good thing spells are based off your CHA and not your WIS then, now isn't it?

Do a search for "Bodhi's guide paladin" and you should get it.


I suggest a Two-Handed Reach Build to take advantage of the Conductive property and Channel Destruction, with the huge Cha he will get with an Headband and the Graveknight he could keep touching with Corruption all day, or at least have the numbers to actually heal himself, go for the big shot of damage against the tough enemy or just spamming it for the Touch AC !

BTW since Touch of Corruption is a Supernatural Touch Attack does it count as a weapon like other Touch Spells ? If it is so Channel Destruction + Touch of Corruption + Channel Smite ( if taken ) on a Touch Attack with a Full-BaB class is a fun alternative, get Lunge and some other magic items that extend the reach of your attacks !

Also I could swear there was an armor special ability that reacted when the alignment of the wearer is scryed upon for effects like Holy Smite/ Smite Evil etc.. Or simply get someone to cast nondetection on you every day ! There are other people in the party who can cast spells no ?


Channel smite while a cool idea... Is garbage in use. You limit yourself to single target damage with your only real AoE attack. You would be better served in every encounter to just take the Selective Channeling feat and take your allies out of the effect. It is wasted of resources and often considered a trap option.

The same for Conductive. It requires two uses of a limited per day resource. If it were an at will unlimited uses, then yeah it is a no brainer. But at +1 (which could make the difference of bypassing DRs faster), it isn't worth it on a full BAB class who will have no problems attacking with touch attacks. Again, almost if not fully, a trap option for you, the full round attack option with the extra damage your weapon does will probably do as much as the one use of Conductive. Get the +#'s up faster to deal with DR or save it for Bane (insert common for here) or something.

As an antipaladin who will be in the mix of things, that swift action to lay on hands and heal yourself (once undead) or Smite the BBGG is a better option. Drop a channel on everyone around you if there are more than a few opponents and/or they aren't "good" and so a target for Smite, to soften them up a little.

Also while the archetype may be fun, paladins have a few spells that are just not worth losing spell casting. Spells are generally so powerful/useful, that anytime an archetype trades them, on any class, it makes the class weaker. The antipaladin might be towards the less impacted but still, what the archetype gives, doesn't make up for what it loses via spell list. On top of the graveknight granting a +4 CHA bonus and that you will have a very high CHA as it adds to saves and will increase HP once you are undead... You will have extra spells which a normal paladin/antipaladin would struggle to accomplish having to invest into other state like CON or STR (which you can also ignore with that +6 coming).


Skylancer4 wrote:

Channel smite while a cool idea... Is garbage in use. You limit yourself to single target damage with your only real AoE attack. You would be better served in every encounter to just take the Selective Channeling feat and take your allies out of the effect. It is wasted of resources and often considered a trap option.

The same for Conductive. It requires two uses of a limited per day resource. If it were an at will unlimited uses, then yeah it is a no brainer. But at +1 (which could make the difference of bypassing DRs faster), it isn't worth it on a full BAB class who will have no problems attacking with touch attacks. Again, almost if not fully, a trap option for you, the full round attack option with the extra damage your weapon does will probably do as much as the one use of Conductive. Get the +#'s up faster to deal with DR or save it for Bane (insert common for here) or something.

As an antipaladin who will be in the mix of things, that swift action to lay on hands and heal yourself (once undead) or Smite the BBGG is a better option. Drop a channel on everyone around you if there are more than a few opponents and/or they aren't "good" and so a target for Smite, to soften them up a little.

Also while the archetype may be fun, paladins have a few spells that are just not worth losing spell casting. Spells are generally so powerful/useful, that anytime an archetype trades them, on any class, it makes the class weaker. The antipaladin might be towards the less impacted but still, what the archetype gives, doesn't make up for what it loses via spell list. On top of the graveknight granting a +4 CHA bonus and that you will have a very high CHA as it adds to saves and will increase HP once you are undead... You will have extra spells which a normal paladin/antipaladin would struggle to accomplish having to invest into other state like CON or STR (which you can also ignore with that +6 coming).

The antipaladin spell list is very weak if not close to garbage. The Dread Vanguard bonus for giving up the spells more than make up for the loss of spells. I used to play a vanilla antipaladin until a private conversation on this forum had me try out the Dread Vanguard for a change. It was significantly better esp. with the racial choice of Dhampir I used. This player is going to be undead which makes it that much better of an option for him.


Grond wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

Channel smite while a cool idea... Is garbage in use. You limit yourself to single target damage with your only real AoE attack. You would be better served in every encounter to just take the Selective Channeling feat and take your allies out of the effect. It is wasted of resources and often considered a trap option.

The same for Conductive. It requires two uses of a limited per day resource. If it were an at will unlimited uses, then yeah it is a no brainer. But at +1 (which could make the difference of bypassing DRs faster), it isn't worth it on a full BAB class who will have no problems attacking with touch attacks. Again, almost if not fully, a trap option for you, the full round attack option with the extra damage your weapon does will probably do as much as the one use of Conductive. Get the +#'s up faster to deal with DR or save it for Bane (insert common for here) or something.

As an antipaladin who will be in the mix of things, that swift action to lay on hands and heal yourself (once undead) or Smite the BBGG is a better option. Drop a channel on everyone around you if there are more than a few opponents and/or they aren't "good" and so a target for Smite, to soften them up a little.

Also while the archetype may be fun, paladins have a few spells that are just not worth losing spell casting. Spells are generally so powerful/useful, that anytime an archetype trades them, on any class, it makes the class weaker. The antipaladin might be towards the less impacted but still, what the archetype gives, doesn't make up for what it loses via spell list. On top of the graveknight granting a +4 CHA bonus and that you will have a very high CHA as it adds to saves and will increase HP once you are undead... You will have extra spells which a normal paladin/antipaladin would struggle to accomplish having to invest into other state like CON or STR (which you can also ignore with that +6 coming).

The antipaladin spell list is very weak if not close to garbage. The...

I will just say I disagree. The template won't come into play until 9th? That means a whole career of gaming before being undead. Spells like bane work great at low levels, the litany spell lines tend to be worthwhile. If you have a tough time finding useful spells... You aren't looking hard enough.

Not saying it can't be a fun archetype, but saying that the extra uses per day and what you can use them on, isn't worth the spell list and utility there.


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I agree with Grond here: the Antipally list is not the Pally list. While the second has solid buffs all around, and I wouldn't switch it out, the Antipaladin list has a lot of debuff spells that enemies can save against: even full casters need to pump their major stat to avoid enemies to save against them, and as an Antipaladin you won't have CHA that high.
And Dread Vanguard is Amazing: I've been playing with one in a WotW game for almost a year now, and the buffs he throws around are really useful.


Adahn_Cielo wrote:

I agree with Grond here: the Antipally list is not the Pally list. While the second has solid buffs all around, and I wouldn't switch it out, the Antipaladin list has a lot of debuff spells that enemies can save against: even full casters need to pump their major stat to avoid enemies to save against them, and as an Antipaladin you won't have CHA that high.

And Dread Vanguard is Amazing: I've been playing with one in a WotW game for almost a year now, and the buffs he throws around are really useful.

Exactly. The Antipaladin spell list is nowhere near as good as the paladin list. The bonuses you get from the dread vanguard simply blow the spell list out of the water. Trust me, I played vanilla antipaladin for years. Talked to someone on here about a design concept for another one and he steered me to the dread vanguard. The results have been immediate. The buffs you get as one plus the other perks are great to have in a party plus if you can benefit from ToC as a heal it only makes it that much stronger. My Dhampir AP would never be able to pull out the stuff I have had him do in WotW and in home campaigns using just Paizo material.

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