Towering Ego vs Demoralize

Does

My DM argued that because Demoralize does not state charisma in this calculation that i would not get the bonus.

There is a post in the Occult FAQ that asks the question about Emotion Components: Does the shaken condition from effects like Intimidate count as “an effect with the fear descriptor” for the purpose of blocking spells with emotion components?
Yes, they do. It should say “fear effect,” and for most descriptors, these wordings are sometimes used interchangeably. For instance, an ability that protects you from effects with the charm descriptor would generally protect you from a harpy’s song (which is a charm effect).

Based on that question and answer would you say that the bonus from towering ego should add to the DC for demoralize.

Nope, it doesn't. It adds to your save bonus, not to any DCs. Demoralize is actually how you shut Towering Ego down. Touch Treatment is good for getting rid of it, though.

In the designer's words, demoralize is the martial equivalent to tying up a caster for psychic characters. Getting free still and silent on all your spellcasting has to come with some downsides.

If a wizard is grappled by a barbarian he's most likely screwed.

If a psychic is flexed at by a barbarian he's most likely screwed.

Nope, it doesn't. It adds to your save bonus, not to any DCs. Demoralize is actually how you shut Towering Ego down. Touch Treatment is good for getting rid of it, though.

What about the FAQ stating that anything that protect you against charm would also protect you against a harpy's song which in an of itself does not excatally charm a person as in the spell but it is a charm effect, would lead me to believe that anything that would protect me against fear affects like a blanket bonus to will saves which protect against mind effecting and a bonus to will saves protect against mind effecting should work against demoralize, which towering ego does do excatally that.

Like a paladin's immunity to fear, giving him immunity to demoralize as demoralize is a fear effect which is a mind effecting effect.

It does apply on all Will saves, including those against demoralize. While normally that won't help you at all (since demoralize doesn't offer a Will save), it's useful against the Intimidate skill unlocks that increase the fear effect of demoralize if you fail a Will save.

QuidEst wrote:

Nope, it doesn't. It adds to your save bonus, not to any DCs. Demoralize is actually how you shut Towering Ego down. Touch Treatment is good for getting rid of it, though.

What about the FAQ stating that anything that protect you against charm would also protect you against a harpy's song which in an of itself does not excatally charm a person as in the spell but it is a charm effect, would lead me to believe that anything that would protect me against fear affects like a blanket bonus to will saves which protect against mind effecting and a bonus to will saves protect against mind effecting should work against demoralize, which towering ego does do excatally that.

Like a paladin's immunity to fear, giving him immunity to demoralize as demoralize is a fear effect which is a mind effecting effect.

Towering Ego gives a bonus on saves. There is no save against being demoralized. If there were, then it would apply, but it doesn't raise the DC of somebody else's check.

wintersrage wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Nope, it doesn't. It adds to your save bonus, not to any DCs. Demoralize is actually how you shut Towering Ego down. Touch Treatment is good for getting rid of it, though.

What about the FAQ stating that anything that protect you against charm would also protect you against a harpy's song which in an of itself does not exactly charm a person as in the spell but it is a charm effect, would lead me to believe that anything that would protect me against fear affects like a blanket bonus to will saves which protect against mind effecting and a bonus to will saves protect against mind effecting should work against demoralize, which towering ego does do exactly that.

Like a paladin's immunity to fear, giving him immunity to demoralize as demoralize is a fear effect which is a mind effecting effect.

Towering Ego gives a bonus on saves. There is no save against being demoralized. If there were, then it would apply, but it doesn't raise the DC of somebody else's check.

Then tell me how does a paladins immunity to fear works against demoralize, which immunity to anything is essentially saying you always have at least 1 higher then the dc for the effect or an infinite bonus, which is effectively saying no matter what the dc is the person will always have enough will power to over come it and will power comes from wisdom and charisma for a person with towering ego. Otherwise the paladin would not be immune to the fear demoralize creates, but he is.

Then tell me how does a paladins immunity to fear works against demoralize, which immunity to anything is essentially saying you always have at least 1 higher then the dc for the effect or an infinite bonus, which is effectively saying no matter what the dc is the person will always have enough will power to over come it and will power comes from wisdom and charisma for a person with towering ego. Otherwise the paladin would not be immune to the fear demoralize creates, but he is.

Immunity doesn't mean that though. Immunity just means immunity. You're immune to fear, so demoralize doesn't work on you since it's a fear effect.

A bonus to saves doesn't help you against something that doesn't offer a save though, because... you only have a bonus on saves.

In the designer's words, demoralize is the martial equivalent to tying up a caster for psychic characters. Getting free still and silent on all your spellcasting has to come with some downsides.

Good in theory, but when one of those is more or less an auto succeed with even minimum optimization against anyone within 30 feet and the other is a series of checks that can be mitigated in many ways it doesn't seem as great.

Quote:

Then tell me how does a paladins immunity to fear works against demoralize, which immunity to anything is essentially saying you always have at least 1 higher then the dc for the effect or an infinite bonus, which is effectively saying no matter what the dc is the person will always have enough will power to over come it and will power comes from wisdom and charisma for a person with towering ego. Otherwise the paladin would not be immune to the fear demoralize creates, but he is.

Immunity doesn't mean that though. Immunity just means immunity. You're immune to fear, so demoralize doesn't work on you since it's a fear effect.

A bonus to saves doesn't help you against something that doesn't offer a save though, because... you only have a bonus on saves.

Quote:

In the designer's words, demoralize is the martial equivalent to tying up a caster for psychic characters. Getting free still and silent on all your spellcasting has to come with some downsides.

Good in theory, but when one of those is more or less an auto succeed with even minimum optimization against anyone within 30 feet and the other is a series of checks that can be mitigated in many ways it doesn't seem as great.

yes but what about the ruling that says anything that offers protection against mind effecting will work for anything that will effect emotional components, to me that seams to way a bonus on will saves will add to the dc for demoralize as will saves protect against mind effect and fear is mind effecting, the specific example they give is charm but charm will also make it so i can't cast psychic spells as i am not in control of my emotional state, calm emotions, rage as well, technically if i was to take levels in barbarian i most likely would not be able to cast my spells as i am raging, but i am choosing to forgo the save on that.

There's ways to mitigate demoralize too.

Towering Ego doesn't protect against mind-affecting things; it gives a bonus on will saves. There are mind-affecting things that don't offer will saves, like demoralize attempts. There are even a few mind-affecting things that use fortitude saves, like an Antipaladin's fear cruelties.

Fortunately, charm effects don't shut down psychic casting. They're not emotion or fear effects. Having your attitude towards somebody changed isn't quite the same as not being in control of your emotional state.

There is no save for a Barbarian's rage, but yes, it would shut down your casting. (You also can't cast while raging, so the emotional side of it is redundant.)