[PbP Gameday V][PFS]GM Zoomba's 4-06 The Green Market (Inactive)

Game Master Zoomba

Maps and Handouts

When an ally of the Society reports that her sister's business is being harassed by the Aspis Consortium in the Varisian city of Korvosa, a team of Pathfinder agents is dispatched to the Green Market to assist. What they find there is more than simple strong-arming and intimidation, however. What mysterious forces bring the popular market its unlikely success, and can the PCs stop the Aspis Consortium from gaining control of what could become a lucrative resource for the rival organization?


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Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

Discussion thread

Grand Lodge

Male Sylph Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1 / Investigator (Empiricist) 7 | HP 59/59 | AC:23 T:17 FF:17 CMD:23 | F+6 R+17 (+2 vs traps) W+9 (+4 vs illusions) | Init +8 | Perc +18 (Darkvision, +4 traps)

Investigating dot!

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Oracle/1, Cloistered Cleric/5) [HP 38/38 | AC:21 | T:15 | FF:16 | CMB:3 | CMD:18 | Fort:+6 | Ref:+7 | Will:+9 | Init:-2 | Perc:+4 | Speed:40 Channels Left:7/9 PFS#: 94976-1] Cloister Cleric/5 Oracle/1

Ahoi!!

Scarab Sages

half-elf oracle 6/sorcerer (mongrel mage) 1/evangelist 1 HP: 64/64| AC: 20 (12 Tch, 18 Fl) | CMD: 14 | F: +4, R: +5, W: +6 (+2 vs. enchantments)| Init: +9 | Perc: +6 (low-light), SM: +4 | Oracle Spells 1st 2/8 - 2nd 3/7 - 3rd 3/5 - Sorc 1st 5/5 | Active: Mage Armor, Shield, Bless

Desna dude dot

Grand Lodge

Male Summoner 9 | HP 84/84| AC 19/18/12| F+10,R+7,W+10 (+5 mind affecting) | Init.+2| Perc.+1|
My Friend:
HP 48/48| AC 20/18/12| F+6,R+4,W+5| Init.+2| Perc.+28| Sense Motive +20

Summoner and Eidolon double dot :

Grand Lodge

Nagaji Oracle of Battle 9 HP: 84/84 | AC: 30 T: 13 FF: 29 CMD: 24 (+10vsDisarm) | F+10 R+6 W+8 | Init +7 (Roll Twice) | Perception +14
Tracked Resources:
Wand of CLW 29/50 | Wand of Shield 45/50 | Wand of Faerie Fire 48/50 | Spells: 1st 7/7, 2nd 7/7, 3rd 6/6, 4th 4/4

dot

Scarab Sages

half-elf oracle 6/sorcerer (mongrel mage) 1/evangelist 1 HP: 64/64| AC: 20 (12 Tch, 18 Fl) | CMD: 14 | F: +4, R: +5, W: +6 (+2 vs. enchantments)| Init: +9 | Perc: +6 (low-light), SM: +4 | Oracle Spells 1st 2/8 - 2nd 3/7 - 3rd 3/5 - Sorc 1st 5/5 | Active: Mage Armor, Shield, Bless

GM Zoomba, I realized I leveled to 8 while waiting for the game to start, so I will make those corrections to my sheet tonight.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

Okay, level 8 Ranger (archery) and companion. Any house rules or such? I use Take 10 when there's not immediate danger or distraction quite a bit, so just want to make sure I'm on the same page as the GM.

I also need to make a few purchases, minor stuff.

But I can join the Gameplay thread post-haste.

EDIT: Whoa, this profile is way out-of-date.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

Purchases:

8 Thistle Arrows
15 Durable arrows

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

FYI, I added Ara and put Ajax more towards the outside. Also, Ajax/Ara get +4 to init in Urban settings.


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

I am out of town this weekend, so while I am trying to keep up posting it may be a bit less prevalent than normal. Should be back Sunday evening EST at the latest.


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

As seen, I may miss things on occasion, so if I accidentally missed or forgot about any of you characters' abilities let me know! You guys have a much better understanding of your miscellaneous traits and bonuses than I do after all.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

Yeah, I can't blame you at this level. The characters have so many contingent bonuses and modifiers, it's really not realistic to expect the GM to apply everything the first time.


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

Well that was a post.

Also, while I'll try to look at the profiles, if any of you speak Shoanti let me know. There's a good chance it may assist in this scenario.

Grand Lodge

Nagaji Oracle of Battle 9 HP: 84/84 | AC: 30 T: 13 FF: 29 CMD: 24 (+10vsDisarm) | F+10 R+6 W+8 | Init +7 (Roll Twice) | Perception +14
Tracked Resources:
Wand of CLW 29/50 | Wand of Shield 45/50 | Wand of Faerie Fire 48/50 | Spells: 1st 7/7, 2nd 7/7, 3rd 6/6, 4th 4/4

No shoanti here.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

@GM

FYI - Ara and Ajax both get Favored Terrain bonuses of +4 in urban settings. So that pushes Ara's Perception roll to 22 and adds an additonal +4 to Init


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

I gotta keep remembering that/putting it in the block I get the intiative from.

With that, Ara also detects the haunt and can act in the surprise round.

Grand Lodge

Nagaji Oracle of Battle 9 HP: 84/84 | AC: 30 T: 13 FF: 29 CMD: 24 (+10vsDisarm) | F+10 R+6 W+8 | Init +7 (Roll Twice) | Perception +14
Tracked Resources:
Wand of CLW 29/50 | Wand of Shield 45/50 | Wand of Faerie Fire 48/50 | Spells: 1st 7/7, 2nd 7/7, 3rd 6/6, 4th 4/4

Rasamoro took damage because he charged that round :)


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

Ah, yep, that'd do it.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

I forget, are we prohibited from selling gear we find in a scenario to purchase consumables in the scenario?


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

As you are in a major city, you can sell gear (for half price) but anything you buy with it will be taken out of the gold you receive at the scenario's end. Unless others actively agree to split the cost, it would be deducted from your chronicle sheet Ajax.


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

And that is a text dump :p

Liberty's Edge

Male Human Ranger-12 (Div Tracker) AC23/T16/F18/CMD21 |HP 112/112| Fort:+14;Ref:+17 Will+10| Evasion : Percept.+23| Init.+7 | { } {Blessings 0/9, Liberation 0/1 reroll 0/1 - { }

Wow. I won't even try to read that on my phone!


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

You all were very courteous and convincing.

Also, it's harder to break up a story across multiple posts


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave
Anáil Stormbringer wrote:
During the harrowing work

Considering how big Harrow is in Korvosa, I got very confused for a second :p

New post when I get home. ~2 hours

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex
Quote:
He lets out a whooping cry, and a trio of massive concentrations of flame and heat, each in a vaguely humanoid shape appear beside him.

As this appears to be a type of summoning, shouldn't that be an action that has to take place in the context of init?

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

Also, are these creatures Huge and is their reach 15' or 10'? I imagine it should be fairly obvious from looking at them.

Grand Lodge

Nagaji Oracle of Battle 9 HP: 84/84 | AC: 30 T: 13 FF: 29 CMD: 24 (+10vsDisarm) | F+10 R+6 W+8 | Init +7 (Roll Twice) | Perception +14
Tracked Resources:
Wand of CLW 29/50 | Wand of Shield 45/50 | Wand of Faerie Fire 48/50 | Spells: 1st 7/7, 2nd 7/7, 3rd 6/6, 4th 4/4

If it turns out the summoning does take an action, would that count as a surprise round I can act in? :D


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

Very good questions, so hopefully this is a good explanation:

The creatures are not summoned, but as always by Galdron's side. As written it is unclear exactly whether the three huge fir elementals emerge rising from the ground with Galdron or are above before. I split the difference by having them 'appear' but I am not sure that is the best case. Be assured that they are there from the beginning of the fight and they do appear to be existing on the Ethereal plane (so solid relative to you).

In the scenario, the general intent is that after the ritual is completed the six of you would be shunted onto the Ethereal Plane, see the divisions of battle, and the Galdron emerges and does what he has done. Due to the differences in the medium of PbP, I chose to split this across into two posts. My reasoning was that this would bother prevent another 'wall=of-text' and also allow a chance for some minor reactions and responses from you before being thrust directly into a combat. There is no surprise round because Galdron is engaging (with his allies) you essentially as soon as each side is aware of each other.

At an IRL table, it may have been easier to express this while still keeping the 'cutscene-esque' focus, but when posting online I was trying to balance giving some information with the possibility any number of significant actions could be attempted to be made in the hours between one post and another that would have to be rolled back.

I hope this makes sense. Doing it again, a better thing may have been to have the fire elementals there but obscured by the visions of fighting until those images faded: thus both making it clear they are there while still giving a reason you are not reacting to them (and vice versa) until Galdron speaks.

Liberty's Edge

Male Human Ranger-12 (Div Tracker) AC23/T16/F18/CMD21 |HP 112/112| Fort:+14;Ref:+17 Will+10| Evasion : Percept.+23| Init.+7 | { } {Blessings 0/9, Liberation 0/1 reroll 0/1 - { }

Works for me. Thanks for the explanation.

Grand Lodge

Nagaji Oracle of Battle 9 HP: 84/84 | AC: 30 T: 13 FF: 29 CMD: 24 (+10vsDisarm) | F+10 R+6 W+8 | Init +7 (Roll Twice) | Perception +14
Tracked Resources:
Wand of CLW 29/50 | Wand of Shield 45/50 | Wand of Faerie Fire 48/50 | Spells: 1st 7/7, 2nd 7/7, 3rd 6/6, 4th 4/4

Same here, thanks for all that!

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex
GM Zoomba wrote:


I hope this makes sense. Doing it again, a better thing may have been to have the fire elementals there but obscured by the visions of fighting until those images faded: thus both making it clear they are there while still giving a reason you are not reacting to them (and vice versa) until Galdron speaks.

If they are always by Galdron's side, I'm confused as to why they are obscure but he isn't...given they are Huge. My issue is whether the PC should have been given an option to move after getting to the Ethereal plane on account of seeing Huge fire elemeants at Galdron's side.

Does the scenario specifically say that we don't see them until combat starts?


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

I concede that the way the scenario is written is vague on that specific point: are the three elemental meant to be waiting for Galdron to make his suitably dramatic entrance or do they rise up through the ground with him?

However, the intent of the scenario is clear that after the ritual is completed, you are brought to the Ethereal Plane, see a vision of the Chelish slaughtering the Shoanti at the site, and then Galdron and the elementals speak and attack. While PCs would have (and did) the chance to casts spells and prepare before conducting the ritual, and explicitly another round as the ritual kicks in, once you arrive to the Ethereal Plane there is not an additional chance to move, cast, etc before combat begins.

Grand Lodge

Male Sylph Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1 / Investigator (Empiricist) 7 | HP 59/59 | AC:23 T:17 FF:17 CMD:23 | F+6 R+17 (+2 vs traps) W+9 (+4 vs illusions) | Init +8 | Perc +18 (Darkvision, +4 traps)

Yeah, it's one of those "monologue cutscene". I'm actually fond of them because I find them very cinematic, but I know my players (when playing face to face) constantly pester about them because they'd like to cast buffs at that time and they can't. ;-)

-Posted with Wayfinder

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex
Anáil Stormbringer wrote:

Yeah, it's one of those "monologue cutscene". I'm actually fond of them because I find them very cinematic, but I know my players (when playing face to face) constantly pester about them because they'd like to cast buffs at that time and they can't. ;-)

-Posted with Wayfinder

The issue I have is scenarios pulling shenanigans with the action economy. For example, NPC precombat actions occur before Initiative, but after the NPC knows a fight is coming but PCs don't get to act. One of the most egregious was in First Steps 1 where the cleric casts obscuring mist. How wold the cleric know when to cast that until the PCs were in sight? In which case, it would have to be an action that occurs after Init is rolled. When you run it that way, Kyra doesn't always get off the spell and the encounter is a lot less deadly.

In our case, I went back and read the posts and it seems the Fire Elementals moved and attacked, which is fine. I was concerned that they just appeared next to Ajax despite them being there the whole time. Long story short, I'm fine with how it played out. I did not notice that they actually moved and then attacked. So bottom line is I have no complaints now that I understand.

Grand Lodge

Male Summoner 9 | HP 84/84| AC 19/18/12| F+10,R+7,W+10 (+5 mind affecting) | Init.+2| Perc.+1|
My Friend:
HP 48/48| AC 20/18/12| F+6,R+4,W+5| Init.+2| Perc.+28| Sense Motive +20

NPC pre-action is often required to make certain types of NPC meet their CR expectations. It is far ore difficult for a high level cleric to actually achieve their indicated level of threat without pre-buffing, as they would only have time for a handful of spells before being overwhelmed. Sometime the scenario writers provide explanation for how the NPC knows to do certain things (from scrying, to alarm spells to peep holes to noise complaints from the neighbours) but I would imagine that sometimes get's cut due to word limits.


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

Yeah, that First Steps encounter is less than ideal, for a lot of reasons.

And not a problem Ajax: I understand it may not have been obvious that two of the three elementals were just using their regular actions at the top of the round, especially as the initiative themselves were buried in the spoiler.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex
Whitwood Spendlehaven wrote:
NPC pre-action is often required to make certain types of NPC meet their CR expectations.

Sorry, I'm not buying that. Monster CR's aren't based on precombat actions. The authors are just using shenanigans to make the scenario play a certain way and have a certain feel e.g. alley way shrouded in mist feels more dramatic than the cleric going last due to poor init. In fact, many of the NPCs are purposely scripted to play below CR. During that First Steps battle, the cleric has the ability to negative channel, but that tactic is conspicuously not called out. If the cleric did use that tactic, she would be far more lethal.

Quote:
It is far ore difficult for a high level cleric to actually achieve their indicated level of threat without pre-buffing, as they would only have time for a handful of spells before being overwhelmed.

And this is exactly what happens to PCs in most PFS encounters. As a long time carrier of buffing wands, I'm acutely aware of how few times PCs are given an opportunity to pre-buff. A spell that lasts 1 minute or 7, still doesn't provide enough duration to cast until one is actually in battle.

Quote:
Sometime the scenario writers provide explanation for how the NPC knows to do certain things (from scrying, to alarm spells to peep holes to noise complaints from the neighbours) but I would imagine that sometimes get's cut due to word limits.

I think it's just laziness. The rules of the game make it hard to set up a of the combats the way authors want them to play out, so rather than figure out an elegant and simple way to make it happen, they just hand waive it. Of course the problems may not originate with the scenario authors, but with PFS editors who try and spruce up the combats. As a GM, I don't give NPCs free action unless the scenario does provide a plausible rationalefor how the NPC gets to act before init is rolled.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex
GM Zoomba wrote:

Yeah, that First Steps encounter is less than ideal, for a lot of reasons.

And not a problem Ajax: I understand it may not have been obvious that two of the three elementals were just using their regular actions at the top of the round, especially as the initiative themselves were buried in the spoiler.

I saw that the had won init, i just didn't see their locations prior to init and as a result I overlooked that that they had simply moved forward and attacked. My bad, as it was clearly stated.

Grand Lodge

Male Summoner 9 | HP 84/84| AC 19/18/12| F+10,R+7,W+10 (+5 mind affecting) | Init.+2| Perc.+1|
My Friend:
HP 48/48| AC 20/18/12| F+6,R+4,W+5| Init.+2| Perc.+28| Sense Motive +20

In this specific case, it would have been just as easy for the Elementals to jsut be sitting around ready toa ct, but it's more dramatic for them to appear... well, dramatically :)

Grand Lodge

Male Summoner 9 | HP 84/84| AC 19/18/12| F+10,R+7,W+10 (+5 mind affecting) | Init.+2| Perc.+1|
My Friend:
HP 48/48| AC 20/18/12| F+6,R+4,W+5| Init.+2| Perc.+28| Sense Motive +20
Ajax Arrowhawk wrote:


Sorry, I'm not buying that. Monster CR's aren't based on precombat actions. The authors are just using shenanigans to make the scenario play a certain way and have a certain feel e.g. alley way shrouded in mist feels more dramatic than the cleric going last due to poor init. In fact, many of the NPCs are purposely scripted to play below CR. During that First Steps battle, the cleric has the ability to negative channel, but that tactic is conspicuously not called out. If the cleric did use that tactic, she would be far more lethal.

I understand it isn't a mechanically "fair" outcome, but I would rather have a cool and dramatic encounter than one that adhered without variance to exactly the rules as written. I don't want the DM arbitrating to the level of "rocks fall, people die", but having a 1st level spell precast to increase the challenge and tension of the encounter just seems like more fun :)

Quote:
And this is exactly what happens to PCs in most PFS encounters. As a long time carrier of buffing wands, I'm acutely aware of how few times PCs are given an opportunity to pre-buff. A spell that lasts 1 minute or 7, still doesn't provide enough duration to cast until one is actually in battle.

If I give a party 5 rounds to prebuff, I can guarantee they will run right over any CR appropriate encounter. An NPC spell caster doesn't have time to really take advantage of their lower level spells except through pre-buffing. That's part of the reason the quick build options in unchained had options to apply a "Spellcaster" template, that just gave some high level spells to a monstrous base. Really, the fact that my level 11 npc wizard can cast magic missile twice in a day isn't really relevant at that level, it's the high level spells they are going to take their actions to cast.

Quote:
I think it's just laziness. The rules of the game make it hard to set up a of the combats the way authors want them to play out, so rather than figure out an elegant and simple way to make it happen, they just hand waive it. Of course the problems may not originate with the scenario authors, but with PFS editors who try and spruce up the combats. As a GM, I don't give NPCs free action unless the scenario does provide a plausible rationalefor how the NPC gets to act before init is rolled.

I don't really think the collective writing and editing teams of pathfinder and their freelancers deserve to be called "lazy", especially not for allowing an NPC a shield spell in combat to bring their AC up from "irrelevant" to "Poor". NPC's don't always have to follow PC logic, they can have abilities that PC's can't and shouldn't have. Allowing an NPC to break action economy to throw the lever, activating the elaborate trap mechanism in a cool laser trap room is exactly the kind of thing that DM's get to do, because the alternative is the bad guy double moving to the control panel, and then getting dropped before the encounter can really start.

I guess I see the rules as a series of guidelines, designed to constrain PC action and Guide DM action, but the most important part of the structure of Pathfinder and other role playing games with DM's is that the DM can always choose to break those rules, to adhere to the most important rule of all, The Rule of Cool.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex
Whitwood Spendlehaven wrote:
I understand it isn't a mechanically "fair" outcome, but I would rather have a cool and dramatic encounter than one that adhered without variance to exactly the rules as written.

We'll have to disagree on this. I don't want author or the GM to monkey with the rules. I don't need house rules to make the game "fun." The game was/is already fun. Now, that having been said, I do like subsystems from time to time. But I do not like rule bending to "tell a story." I don't need to be told a story, playing the game, is the story.

Quote:
If I give a party 5 rounds to prebuff, I can guarantee they will run right over any CR appropriate encounter.

The problem that you're overlooking is that a LOT of the classes are balanced based on their ability to buff. A Ranger is a perfect example. Spells like Cat's Grace or Barkskin, or even Abundant Ammunition, are what give a Ranger a slight edge. But when the combat lasts three rounds...you're totally undermined these classes. The only way you level the playing field is to allow those classes to use those buffs. I don't expect to get "5" rounds before each combat, but a high percentage of encounters should allow the PCs to anticipate combat and buff according. More importantly, I think GMs should be liberal with providing that information. To wit, this scenario has been great for that.

Quote:
An NPC spell caster doesn't have time to really take advantage of their lower level spells except through pre-buffing.

So what? Neither do PCs. I would submit that the game is more enjoyable if those who can buff get a chance to do so and enjoy their characters as a result. I'm fine with increasing the combat challenge by letting both sides pre-buff on occasion. Again, I'm not advocating one should always get advanced warning, but at least half the battles should provide some vehicle for it. Again...the game has presumptively balanced the classes on the idea that they are using these buffing spells/abilities.

Quote:
Really, the fact that my level 11 npc wizard can cast magic missile twice in a day isn't really relevant at that level, it's the high level spells they are going to take their actions to cast.

I'm not really so concerned about efficacy, I'm concerned with options. It's the low level spell casting that, imo, offers more opportunities for players to express themselves and their characters. A 5th level wizard casting Fireball isn't interesting to me tactically, it's obvious. That same wizard going with Grease or True Strike is. Or a cleric using Create Water or Speak With Dead. I also think that buffing others is a great social part of the game that gets marginalized if combat always happens...NOW.

Quote:
I don't really think the collective writing and editing teams of pathfinder and their freelancers deserve to be called "lazy"

That's a fair criticism, but I am looking for a way to describe what they did in First Steps and that similar type of hand waiving that flouts the rules to impose what the author wants to happen. Let me put it this way, evidence of great scenario writing is when you create that drama and tension while following the rules, not by breaking them. Anyone can create drama and tension by breaking the mechanical rules.

Quote:
I guess I see the rules as a series of guidelines, designed to constrain PC action and Guide DM action, but the most important part of the structure of Pathfinder and other role playing games with DM's is that the DM can always choose to break those rules, to adhere to the most important rule of all, The Rule of Cool.

I would completely disagree with that. The primary reason I play PFS and not some random homebrew game is specifically because GMs invariably want to break the rules because they think that's fun. The game isn't fun because the GM broke the rules. The game is fun because of the rules. I want to play Pathfinder, not GM Bob's version of Pathfinder.

IME, and IMO, the "Rule of Cool" is a detriment to the game when it involves willfully breaking the rules. My attitude as a GM is that the game is already fun, I don't need to screw with it. You challenged my notion that the authors were "lazy." Well, I'll take that same tact and say that GMs shouldn't try and second guess the rules and the people whose professional lives have been devoted to creating them.

That having been said, I'm all for creative solutions and doing things that the rules don't explicitly forbid. I don't have a problem with GMs adjudicating situations that are not covered by the rules. That's part of the game. But the rules should apply equally to PC and NPCs. As soon as I feel the NPCs are playing by a different set of rules, I immediately lose interest. Then I feel like I am being railroaded and it undermines the meaningfulness of my decisions.

Grand Lodge

Male Summoner 9 | HP 84/84| AC 19/18/12| F+10,R+7,W+10 (+5 mind affecting) | Init.+2| Perc.+1|
My Friend:
HP 48/48| AC 20/18/12| F+6,R+4,W+5| Init.+2| Perc.+28| Sense Motive +20

Okay, I think I understand your point. I play a lot of other games that have less prescriptive rules than pathfinder, and quite enjoy GM Bob's version of pathfinder (within reasonable limits). When I GM, I take the rules as Guidelines (TM) and use them to direct but not control what I am allowed to do as GM. I will wilfully fluff rolls and spot fix numbers if I think it will make the experience more fun (for everyone of course, not just for me).

Obviously I don't do this when GM pathfinder society, the rules are a bit different there :)

On prebuffing in general: I have a personal bias against 1 minutes buffs before combat. I like them when the players have setup and ambush or have some other reasonable expectation that there will be a fight soon (enemy charging across the field, battle horns at the gates etc).

I sometimes (and specifically not in this scenario where it is quite clearly forewarned) find that players take meta queues to determine when to pre buff. I really don't like it when players use game knowledge, rather than character knowledge, to guide character actions, and Pre-buffing often occurs in this scenario. I fully agree that some classes rely on some level of pre-buffing to bring their full pwoer to the table, but I personally don't love this kind of play. I prefer the warpriest over the cleric for instance because it allows reactive buffing with a swift action, rather than relying on pre-combat rounds to power up. Thats more about what I want in a game, rather than a criticism of the system though.

Long story short: I think its great that Pathfinder can provide a play experience that both of us enjoy, despite having such different views on what we want in games.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

In my years of playing PbP, your approach is not uncommon. There are large contingency of PbP's who definitely think story should trump mechanics. I've been playing a PbP Savage World game tailored after XCOM. It's the first time I've played Savage World and I am definitely not hung up on the rules in that game. But for whatever reason, when it comes to 3.5/Pathfinder, every time the GM busts out house rules, it kills the game for me. And I grew up playing AD&D where it was nothing but house rules :)

Quote:
I will wilfully fluff rolls and spot fix numbers if I think it will make the experience more fun (for everyone of course, not just for me).

Yeah..not a fan of this. Obviously if the whole game is homebrew and you realize you've made a monster too strong or two weak, then I can kind of see it. But I prefer to take my lumps as a GM and just do a better job the next time rather than shift the goal posts after the kick.

Quote:
I sometimes (and specifically not in this scenario where it is quite clearly forewarned) find that players take meta queues to determine when to pre buff

I am not bothered by this. Ultimately, this is a game. There are so many things that defy logic, I am not bothered by players picking up on the PFS tendencies when it comes to starting combat.

Quote:
I really don't like it when players use game knowledge, rather than character knowledge, to guide character actions, and Pre-buffing often occurs in this scenario

I see this sentiment a lot. But I'll point out that players are lacking the knowledge that actual characters would have. Whats' worse, GMs withhold information from players that should be conveyed via the character's experiences. A perfect example is Knowledge Checks. K. checks should include information like AC, HD, Stats, etc. The way most GMs handle K checks, you can't tell whether Kobold or Dragon is tougher to kill. If a person made a living fighting monsters, that person would immediately be able to discern many aspects of the monsters they fight...within seconds. Speed, agility, strength, awareness. I liken it to my years of playing pick-up basketball or tennis. Within the first two or three swings of a racquet, I have an immediate perspective on how quick and skilled the other player is. Fortunately, a lot of the information is conveyed through being able to see dice rolls, so I'm thankful that PbP reveals those.

Quote:
I prefer the warpriest over the cleric for instance because it allows reactive buffing with a swift action, rather than relying on pre-combat rounds to power up. Thats more about what I want in a game, rather than a criticism of the system though.

I think we can probably both agree that it's a failure of the system if the situation always favors the Warpriest because of the class' ability to leverage Swift actions. I think the game is better when both have their moments such that each appreciates what the other brings to the table. Ideally, for every battle that the Warpriest's Swift actions are substantial, there should be a battle where the clerics prebuffing is critical.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

A couple of items/questions:

1. Ara has Shield Companion on her, so the damage is split between her and Ajax

2. So Ajax can move straight up? and over the wall?


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

1) While I forgot that shield companion was one of the cast buffs, it is not automatic so would need to be actively triggered with an immeadiate action. From your response here, I'll assume that you did so here and will adjust the damage. Also, note that shield companion has you take all the damage - it is not split like shield other.

2) Ajax and/or Ara could fly straight up, though doing so would provoke just like normal movement.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex
GM Zoomba wrote:

1) While I forgot that shield companion was one of the cast buffs, it is not automatic so would need to be actively triggered with an immeadiate action. From your response here, I'll assume that you did so here and will adjust the damage. Also, note that shield companion has you take all the damage - it is not split like shield other.

2) Ajax and/or Ara could fly straight up, though doing so would provoke just like normal movement.

There are two Shield Companion spells. I'm using the 1st level one from Animal Archives

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shield%20Other

Quote:
This spell functions as shield other but affects only the caster’s animal companion or familiar. Spellcasters from classes that do not normally gain an animal companion, familiar, or fiendish servant but who gain one through an alternate class feature, archetype, or prestige class can prepare and cast this spell as a 1st-level spell if they are capable of casting spells.
Shield Other wrote:
This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including those dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.


Blooming Catastrophe Return to Grave

Huh, the more you know.

I'll edit the hp again: I am defaulting to a '9 to Ara, 8 to you' split for the moment: please let me know if you'd rather take the 9.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

It's your call how you want to handle it. It's not clear whether Ara's damage should be rounded down or up. I assumed down because that's the convention in PF and the spell is conveniently worded so that the other person does gets the extra point, so that meant the 9 went to Ajax. For consistency and since I already put the 9 on Ajax, I'd vote for that method.

Liberty's Edge

43870-1 | Human M (Garundi) Ranger 11 | Init +7 (+11 Urban)| AC 29* T 17* FF 21* | | HP 103/103| F +11 R +13 W +8 | Percp Survival +19; Sense Motive +17; HA (comp) +20; K Nature +16; Spellcraft, K (Geo, Dungeon) +15, Stealth 13; All other K. +4
Active on Ajax:
Life Bubble, Longstrider, Shield Companion, Mage Armor, HA, Barkskin (+4 AC)
Active on Ara:
Life Bubble, Mage Armor, Shield Companion, Longstrider, Barkskin +4 AC, Cat's Grace +4 Dex

Do we have any group buffs going on?

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