Stealing item during group loot (e.g. Falchion)

Alrighty, so we just started and the gm is kinda rusty on some of the rules plus we have a few first time players. I mostly want to know this for future reference on how things will be working.

So we were in a fight with four people, one had a Flachion and three had Spears. We had three of us and two guards. We are all first level, the barbarian made quick work of the Falchion guy before moving on to the others, after it was done before we all got into group loot the Magus says he is going to steal the Falchion. So the gm lets him roll a sleight of hand and we all roll a perception while we stand about 5-10 feet away. Granted we might have been looting but still this seems kinda crazy. Anyway rolls were 23 for his sleight of hand and 18 on my perception. Plus he did a disguise to hide it under his cloak. I am wondering if we did this correctly.

It honestly boggles my mind that someone could take and hide such a large weapon while we all stand like five or ten feet away and are in the process of looting. How does stealing from what would have been group loot work? I could understand looting a body and maybe pocketing a small bag of gold or a tiny weapon/trinket. But to take a twohanded weapon and stash it away at level one just seems like it would be more tricky then that, like he would get a negative or we get a bonus. Is there some rules I should be looking at for this? At the end of the day I get that what the gm says goes, I'm just boggled by this and would like to hear some rule on the subject. Thank you!

Sleight of Hand covers small items such as coins, a dart, or a dagger. In short, no, he could not have done that using the rules. A falchion is too large.

However, if it were to be allowed it should have had a significant penalty. I would have assigned a -10 penalty for every size category over light (the size of a dagger or dart) the weapon was. In this case, -20. (If I am feeling really generous it might've been -5 per size category.)

- Gauss

I'd certainly let him try it, via oppposed perception vs sleight of hand, but there should have been a penalty to his roll.

However, did your characters not notice that the falchion had disappeared? It must have been fairly obvious someone had taken it, even if you didn't know who.

On a separate point, stealing party treasure often leads to out of character strife among the players, though it's not a problem if you guys are fine with him taking stuff.

Even if the DM ruled this was possible, it seems to me that a logical question the barbarian would ask the group is "where did that big weapon go? It couldn't have walked away by itself. This would give the magus a chance to either fess up or to surrepititiously drop the falchion and hopefully correct his semi-pvp error. If, however, the thieving magus does not correct his mistake then the group may have a much larger problem in the form of a selfish player willing to steal from his own teamates.

Indeed, regardless of the Criss Angel skills of the Magus managing to sleight of hand a massive piece of iron, he didn't inflict you all with amnesia.

Besides what everyone else said, how do you keep a falchion hidden under your cloak long term? It's a big item and it will definitely be awkward. Easy perception checks that the group would probably be entitled to just about every damn time the Magus moved would reveal that he had it.

The correct course of action is to not invite players to your games that behave like this. I remember the days of playing d&d in college when new people would join every now and then. My group was an evil group and we basically made newcomers to our party sign contracts stating all the rules of party treasure, stealing, etc. Anyone caught near a sleeping party member(automatically assumed to be stealing) or caught secreting away loot would be summarily executed by the rest of the party. The tiefling really loved paperwork.

The correct course of action is to not invite players to your games that behave like this. I remember the days of playing d&d in college when new people would join every now and then. My group was an evil group and we basically made newcomers to our party sign contracts stating all the rules of party treasure, stealing, etc. Anyone caught near a sleeping party member(automatically assumed to be stealing) or caught secreting away loot would be summarily executed by the rest of the party.

That's pretty harsh, especially because he mentioned there were some first time players who may not quite get that people would be upset because their character stole something from an imaginary dead guy. Maybe bring it up with the player and let him know that it's not cool and your guys would probably hurt him if they found out he was doing it.

Robert A Matthews wrote:

The correct course of action is to not invite players to your games that behave like this. I remember the days of playing d&d in college when new people would join every now and then. My group was an evil group and we basically made newcomers to our party sign contracts stating all the rules of party treasure, stealing, etc. Anyone caught near a sleeping party member(automatically assumed to be stealing) or caught secreting away loot would be summarily executed by the rest of the party.

That's pretty harsh, especially because he mentioned there were some first time players who may not quite get that people would be upset because their character stole something from an imaginary dead guy. Maybe bring it up with the player and let him know that it's not cool and your guys would probably hurt him if they found out he was doing it.

It was an evil campaign and those contracts kept our party functioning even with chaotic evil members.

I meant what you said seemed harsh in regards to the idea that the TC just shouldn't invite the Magus again.

Well we did another perception for him hiding it while he did a disguise check. I forget the rolls on that but there was also no penalty or bonus. I did ask about it and he tried to say it was just tossed in the river from the battle and I did pass my sense motive vs his bluff. So I do know he was lying about that, I honestly don't care all that much about this item, I just worry about down the road. If he can simply take items before we even start the party loot it's going to get pretty annoying pretty quick. Especially if it's an item we all seen during combat.

I stand by my statement. Nobody wants to sit at a table with a rogue with +20 sleight of hand stealing all the party's stuff for himself. It creates an atmosphere of dysfunctional play and has always resulted in hard feelings in every case where I've seen it happen. I guess you could take the high road and try to talk it out, but in my experience, jerk players will always find a way to be a jerk. You close one road and they'll find another.

While I can sometimes agree with Mr. Matthews, it all depends. For some tables, that makes the game funny. I have played goblins that play tricks on people that in some games is considered hilarious but in others, with all the same players, would be so out of the feel of the campaign.

What matters is what works for your group and the feel of the campaign.

Besides what everyone else said, how do you keep a falchion hidden under your cloak long term? It's a big item and it will definitely be awkward. Easy perception checks that the group would probably be entitled to just about every damn time the Magus moved would reveal that he had it.

I did bring this up and was told once we start moving I could make other perception checks against his disguise to hide the weapon. However for future situations I'm gonna bring up that sleight of hand is for small objects and if it is used for anything bigger then there should be a -5 or even a -10 for each size bigger like what Gauss said, that makes the most sense to me.

I stand by my statement. Nobody wants to sit at a table with a rogue with +20 sleight of hand stealing all the party's stuff for himself. It creates an atmosphere of dysfunctional play and has always resulted in hard feelings in every case where I've seen it happen. I guess you could take the high road and try to talk it out, but in my experience, jerk players will always find a way to be a jerk. You close one road and they'll find another.

You bring up a really good point however we all play online games together and decided to start a pathfinder game. I think since it's the first game and he is very new we should see how it goes. Plus it's not my game so it's really up to the GM but I'll probably talk with him tomorrow about this. I mean jerk characters could be fun but not when it is at everyone elses expense, then it just gets kinda annoying.

Well we did another perception for him hiding it while he did a disguise check. I forget the rolls on that but there was also no penalty or bonus. I did ask about it and he tried to say it was just tossed in the river from the battle and I did pass my sense motive vs his bluff. So I do know he was lying about that, I honestly don't care all that much about this item, I just worry about down the road. If he can simply take items before we even start the party loot it's going to get pretty annoying pretty quick. Especially if it's an item we all seen during combat.

First talk to the GM. This kind of behavior should not be acceptable.

If the GM won't sort things out of character you can handle things in character. You know he stole it because there is no other reason for him to lie and bluff doesn't give false positives. Next time you're on watch and he isn't, wake up everyone else and search his kit. Then, as a group, decide how to punish him. Cutting off a hand is traditional in some cultures, hanging in others. Either way you're now an established group and can refuse to accept anyone with the sleight skill as a new member.

Next time you're on watch and he isn't, wake up everyone else and search his kit.

Or just wake everyone else up and leave.

This looks like it belongs in the "Advice" section.

As was mentioned above, you generally have to be really careful with PvP kind of stuff. If you want to run with it, go ahead, but it can create a whole world of problems.

How often does a character get to steal treasure? How valuable can the stuff that is stolen be? What happens when another character catches the player in the act? Etc.

That's not to say you can't do it, but there are a whole mess of issues that crop up when you start allowing PvP stuff. The most important thing though is to make sure everybody is on board with it before it happens and make sure the rules are clear (because there's a difference between letting someone pocket an extra handful of gold and letting someone swipe the +3 Sword of Superawesomeness). I'd be willing to bet most people don't find it particularly fun if they feel like they're missing out on rewards and have to worry about getting cheated by other players ("I was going to enchant my armor, but now I can't because the Rogue filched that valuable painting we found"). But, to each their own.

I hate this type of thing for a few reasons, as a player feeling screwed by your so called mates is annoying, both player and GM the RP/reflection killing mad dash after battles is annoying. As a GM I don't allow it, as a player I explain out of character that it is a dick move. If I played with someone who wouldn't change their MO, PVP would escalate very quickly.

If your GM is actively working to help conceal the theft, I would probably just leave the game. If your choice of games is very limited I would in character refuse to go along with the theft. "What do you mean the falchion disappeared? I want to get to the bottom of this. Clearly someone is a thief in our midst and no one is going anywhere until we find out who it is!"

-delete, sorry double post-

I hate this type of thing for a few reasons, as a player feeling screwed by your so called mates is annoying, both player and GM the RP/reflection killing mad dash after battles is annoying. As a GM I don't allow it, as a player I explain out of character that it is a dick move. If I played with someone who wouldn't change their MO, PVP would escalate very quickly.

If your GM is actively working to help conceal the theft, I would probably just leave the game. If your choice of games is very limited I would in character refuse to go along with the theft. "What do you mean the falchion disappeared? I want to get to the bottom of this. Clearly someone is a thief in our midst and no one is going anywhere until we find out who it is!"

The GM was trying to be fair and let people play the way they want, however he does not know all the rules cause there are a ton so I came on here to see if there were any rules that could have stopped this. Obviously being able to use sleight of hand on a sword as big as that with absolutely not penalty as we stand right next to him set off a few red flags to me because I play more often then the others. I just came here for some rules to bring back, like I said before we all play online games together and decided to try a online pathfinder game. This was our first games and I am hoping to get rules over to the GM before things get out of control.

This looks like it belongs in the "Advice" section.

Sorry, first time posting to the forums so I thought it would fall under the rules. I honestly just wanted to know about rules concerning sleight of hand/stealing group loot that the party all saw.

Here you go, the sleight of hand skill link, note that only small or coin size sized objects are used for sleight of hand, so unless the Magus had cast a spell that changed the size of the Falchion, he couldn't have used sleight of hand to hide the item using the Sleight of Hand skill by itself.
Sleight of Hand

As others have said the GM should have given him some negatives to his roll.

Treasure distribution should be handled in character. For instance your character knows this guy is lying. He either lets it slide for now or pushes the issue.

I understand there is a balance between fair to players and rping things out. I side strongly on rping things out rather than handling things meta-game.

I think get a good chuckle when someone tries to pull one over on the party.

Sometimes unscrupulous types steal. If you know call them on it. If you don't oh well.

Sometimes the trusted Paladin holds the money and extra gear because he is so trustworthy. However no one told him not to tithe before loot was split.

Sometimes the good cleric destroys the necromancers spell book because of all the evil spells in it.

Sometimes the ranger pulls the paladin aside to discuss some "troubling issues" so the rogue can steal without the high and might looking over his shoulder.

Its the GM's job to make sure people get WBL.

...what does a magus want with a falchion anyway?

Medwin, you posted in the correct forum. The original question was regarding the rules. What it turned into (ie, an advice thread on how to deal with a player/PC that steals from other players/PCs) is not your fault and does not change that this is a rules question.

- Gauss

Money

As others have said the GM should have given him some negatives to his roll.

Treasure distribution should be handled in character. For instance your character knows this guy is lying. He either lets it slide for now or pushes the issue.

I understand there is a balance between fair to players and rping things out. I side strongly on rping things out rather than handling things meta-game.

I think get a good chuckle when someone tries to pull one over on the party.

Sometimes unscrupulous types steal. If you know call them on it. If you don't oh well.

Sometimes the trusted Paladin holds the money and extra gear because he is so trustworthy. However no one told him not to tithe before loot was split.

Sometimes the good cleric destroys the necromancers spell book because of all the evil spells in it.

Sometimes the ranger pulls the paladin aside to discuss some "troubling issues" so the rogue can steal without the high and might looking over his shoulder.

Its the GM's job to make sure people get WBL.

I'm all for roleplaying things out, I just felt that I do a sleight of hand check and you do a perception as you stand right next to me did not cut it for roleplaying. Now say if he said he uses perception to wait for the exact moment everyone is not looking to toss the falchion into is cloak that might have went better. Still the logistics on such an action being so easily done was lost on me.

Also, how would stealing such a large item work, would they have to be in stealth? Say if there was a painting how would one go about stealing it, what checks should be rolled? Would they have to wait till there is no one around the painting the just stealth into the place?

This is a rules question, at first. However, just make sure the rest of it gets addressed/resolved in some way before it becomes rules debates over stolen treasure and the OOC anger therein.

The mechanics of this situation stunk I agree. I would rp this single instance out and later talk to the GM about the language of sleight of hand being traditionally used for small items not something so large as a two handed sword. That in the future you hope that he will adjust DC's more in keeping with the RAW.

If the Magus of the group is this good at Sleight of Hand, I shudder to think of what the Rogue can do.

Barbarian: Hey, wasn't this nine-headed fire-breathing hydra wearing jewelled barding a moment ago?
Rogue: What, you're complaining because its AC is five points lower?
Barbarian: Well - no, I guess not...
Rogue: So are you accusing me of something?
Barbarian: You look lumpier than usual.
Rogue: Yeah, whenever I wear this extra-big cloak I have attacks of Spontaneous Obesity Disorder. Look, are you going to finish killing that hydra or not?

Missing loot: falchon
Last seen with: magus

If you have information on either please contact our barbarian serial crusher.

As others have said the GM should have given him some negatives to his roll.

Treasure distribution should be handled in character. For instance your character knows this guy is lying. He either lets it slide for now or pushes the issue.

I understand there is a balance between fair to players and rping things out. I side strongly on rping things out rather than handling things meta-game.

I think get a good chuckle when someone tries to pull one over on the party.

Sometimes unscrupulous types steal. If you know call them on it. If you don't oh well.

Sometimes the trusted Paladin holds the money and extra gear because he is so trustworthy. However no one told him not to tithe before loot was split.

Sometimes the good cleric destroys the necromancers spell book because of all the evil spells in it.

Sometimes the ranger pulls the paladin aside to discuss some "troubling issues" so the rogue can steal without the high and might looking over his shoulder.

Its the GM's job to make sure people get WBL.

The Paladin wouldn't get as big of a share of the treasure and we'd tell him to clear it before he did it again. Any Cleric worth his or her salt turns said spell book into the local church elders, who will destroy it and reward the Cleric for the effort. A Rogue stealing from people outside the party won't create the same kind of issue in game as stealing from other players' characters.

Are players allowed to steal directly from other players, or just from group loot before it's split? What are the other characters allowed to do in response when it's discovered? What happens when RPing turns into "I noticed him stealing the sword I wanted again. I coup de grace him while he's asleep"?

Again, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying you really should make sure everybody is on board and the rules are pretty well laid out beforehand. In the end, if the natural conclusion of having a character steal from other characters are either the party (or at least a member) offs that character or kicks the character from the group because s/he can't be trusted, what is gained in the end other than frustration on the part of the players (both those who had their treasure stolen and those who have to roll up a new character) as well as the GM (who has to deal with the fallout)?

I've just never been a fan of PvP stuff. I know other people like it and if everybody involved is cool with it there's no reason not to have it a part of the game. But I think it's too easy to go off the rails and create situations where players get frustrated for things that needn't be a part of the game. To each his or her own, I just don't like it.

As others have said the GM should have given him some negatives to his roll.

Treasure distribution should be handled in character. For instance your character knows this guy is lying. He either lets it slide for now or pushes the issue.

I understand there is a balance between fair to players and rping things out. I side strongly on rping things out rather than handling things meta-game.

I think get a good chuckle when someone tries to pull one over on the party.

Sometimes unscrupulous types steal. If you know call them on it. If you don't oh well.

Sometimes the trusted Paladin holds the money and extra gear because he is so trustworthy. However no one told him not to tithe before loot was split.

Sometimes the good cleric destroys the necromancers spell book because of all the evil spells in it.

Sometimes the ranger pulls the paladin aside to discuss some "troubling issues" so the rogue can steal without the high and might looking over his shoulder.

Its the GM's job to make sure people get WBL.

The reason I think this is better handled out of character is because then the characters are salvageable as party members. Perhaps it is because I let too much of myself bleed into my characters, but seeing someone steal from me is a point of no return.

Gnomezrule wrote:

As others have said the GM should have given him some negatives to his roll.

Treasure distribution should be handled in character. For instance your character knows this guy is lying. He either lets it slide for now or pushes the issue.

I understand there is a balance between fair to players and rping things out. I side strongly on rping things out rather than handling things meta-game.

I think get a good chuckle when someone tries to pull one over on the party.

Sometimes unscrupulous types steal. If you know call them on it. If you don't oh well.

Sometimes the trusted Paladin holds the money and extra gear because he is so trustworthy. However no one told him not to tithe before loot was split.

Sometimes the good cleric destroys the necromancers spell book because of all the evil spells in it.

Sometimes the ranger pulls the paladin aside to discuss some "troubling issues" so the rogue can steal without the high and might looking over his shoulder.

Its the GM's job to make sure people get WBL.

The Paladin wouldn't get as big of a share of the treasure and we'd tell him to clear it before he did it again. Any Cleric worth his or her salt turns said spell book into the local church elders, who will destroy it and reward the Cleric for the effort. A Rogue stealing from people outside the party won't create the same kind of issue in game as stealing from other players' characters.

Are players allowed to steal directly from other players, or just from group loot before it's split? What are the other characters allowed to do in response when it's discovered? What happens when RPing turns into "I noticed him stealing the sword I wanted again. I coup de grace him while he's asleep"?

Again, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying you really should make sure everybody is on board and the rules are pretty well laid out beforehand. In the end, if the natural conclusion of having a character steal from other characters are either the party (or at...

All of these are things that happened in parties I have been in with 0 bad blood and no party on party violence.

I certainly could see these things being abused but that is a different issue that is an out of character issue. But what in this game can not be abused. Someone using the meta-game assumption of party cooperation as a shield to get more than everyone else is a problem player.

When the Paladin tithed our money we all laughed. From there on in people kept track of their own money though two characters still gave money to the Paladin to tithe.

When the cleric destroyed the book the wizard made sure that every other piece of the necromancer's gear was separated from the cleric while the cleric was healing. Just in case.

When the Ranger pulled the Paladin aside the rogue looted not just the enemies corpses but several of the items that clearly belonged to the owner who sent us to get rid of the enemies who were squatting in his digs.

Oh man, this kind of thing drives me up the wall. It's just not fun when other party members screw you over. Obviously this is a personal taste thing, but to me it's just not the sort of thing that should be in a co-operative game.

Him stealing it is bad enough, but what happens if you actually win the opposed roll and notice him stealing it? It's the sort of thing that can really spiral downhill. I've never seen a phrase cause more havoc at a game table than "It's what my character would do".

This is usually the sort of thing that players should discuss and is not really under the purview of the GM. But if a rogue goes around, say, pickpocketing people and getting lots of money from it, then the GM could find a way to give a similar amount of money to other PCs. The barbarian wins an arm-wrestling tournament, the paladin gets donations from friendly people, the wizard sells some wondrous items he's crafted.

While I understand that pvp stuff is "roleplaying" I've personally seen it break apart three different gaming groups. I hate it- and it can ruin the fun of people who reasonably expect a fair share.

There's also a double standard at times- you are the naughty CN rogue who enjoys stealing from party members? Great! I'm the lawful neutral justicar type who thinks that stealing from your comrades at arms during life or death situations is treachery punishable by death.

I guess you should probably decide either way- even aside from the stealing issue, it's important to avoid the double standard. The worst is "evil" players who think any in-game interference with their "right" to do evil stuff is OOC limiting on their roleplaying rights. My paladin has as much right to roleplay stopping you from torturing someone as you have a right to say that your character is torturing someone.

"I'm evil-aligned! Stealing from you is what my character would do!"

"I'm a crazy-ass barbarian. Caving your head in with a greataxe for stealing from me is what MY character would do".

There are worse things in the world than a bit of strategic metagaming.

Where did the character hide the falchion? Nature's pocket?

Guys. Guys.

He's just playing his character!

yeah, actually I agree that some strategic metagaming is expected

your one non-freedom as a player is that there has to be a REASON why the other people would keep you around. Your PCs can hate each other, but if they flat out refuse to adventure with each other- no game- and that's abused at times.

I remember one LE player who flat out refused to help in combat. She just stood there and ordered the other party members around. Because roleplaying.

Now to a degree, that might have been a fun character element, but in excess it got old pretty fast. When we confronted her in character with "you've got to do your share around here," she got very OOC upset and accused us of telling her how to play her character. Meh.

Roleplay all you want, but you have some onus to give the other three people some reason to generally want you around.

I wonder in what way he'll 'play his character' when the rest of the party tires of pretending ignorance, uses divination to determine the responsible party, and helps the magus hide it where nobody will think to look for it - in his unmarked grave.

"What fun we're having! Aren't I a hoot?"

If you can identify the thief in character, I might let him do it and intimidate him into splitting the spoils with me. Depends on the game though.

I guess you should probably decide either way- even aside from the stealing issue, it's important to avoid the double standard. The worst is "evil" players who think any in-game interference with their "right" to do evil stuff is OOC limiting on their roleplaying rights. My paladin has as much right to roleplay stopping you from torturing someone as you have a right to say that your character is torturing someone.

Oh good God, That Guy. Especially when they expect everyone else to play their characters like impotent bystanders while they flaunt that #%€*.

"Why aren't you letting me play my character?"

"We are. Now let us play our good characters. Also, actions have consequences."

I have never seen it escalate into PVP. I am sure it could. Its one thing to try to pocket a falchion and profiteer its totally different to when confronted about taking it to respond by threatening violence against a friend and ally.

As a GM I am pretty hands off about this kind of thing I do not encourage PVP, but there are also choices that put people in a place where violence might happen. Almost always one or both sides calm the situation down. Hence the LN Justicar counts this as a warning and the thief takes it seriously.

Sloanzilla wrote:

I guess you should probably decide either way- even aside from the stealing issue, it's important to avoid the double standard. The worst is "evil" players who think any in-game interference with their "right" to do evil stuff is OOC limiting on their roleplaying rights. My paladin has as much right to roleplay stopping you from torturing someone as you have a right to say that your character is torturing someone.

Oh good God, That Guy. Especially when they expect everyone else to play their characters like impotent bystanders while they flaunt that #%€*.

"Why aren't you letting me play my character?"

"We are. Now let us play our good characters. Also, actions have consequences."

The very epitome of Chaotic Stupid. Works especially well with his counterpart, the poorly-played Paladin with the Lawful Annoying alignment. "I detect evil on everybody. If they pop as evil I kill them. What do you MEAN I'm going to prison? You aren't letting me play my character!"

Alignment is fun tool, but I find that sometimes players forget that their PCs have personalities as well. Evil characters can actually care about others, after all. A person can be evil and quite loyal to their friends. They just might have strange reactions sometimes-- if somebody hurts their friends, an evil character might, say, murder the transgressor and everybody that person cares about. But hey, at least they won't steal from the rest of the party!

Not to derail even more, but some players also forget that even the world's most "evil" or "chaotic" characters sometimes just purchase a donut and a cup of coffee in the morning, instead of torturing or threatening the guy at the donut store to get it all for free.

Or imagine four inmates of a max security prison break out and rob a bank. Sure, one of them might make off with all or most of the money if there's a very good chance he could get away with it. On the other hand, if he knows there's a very high chance the other three heavily armed, dangerous inmates might see him or even suspect him of stealing from the group, he would not take the risk, if he planned to remain with the group.

I'm running through a dungeon with three other heavily armed guys (including a motherf+*+ing barbarian) and we drop some guy with a neat weapon. No matter how much of a thief I am, no way I'm attempting a high risk play on the other three.

I remember one LE player who flat out refused to help in combat. She just stood there and ordered the other party members around. Because roleplaying.

Now to a degree, that might have been a fun character element, but in excess it got old pretty fast. When we confronted her in character with "you've got to do your share around here," she got very OOC upset and accused us of telling her how to play her character. Meh.

This could actually work if you're playing a bard, sensei, or some other build that can improve people's abilities by "telling them what to do." Buff spells in general could even be flavoured that way. But in that case the character actually would be doing her share.

lol- "naggy matriarch"= +2 to hit, +2 damage, -5 to will to live

Alignment is fun tool, but I find that sometimes players forget that their PCs have personalities as well. Evil characters can actually care about others, after all. A person can be evil and quite loyal to their friends. They just might have strange reactions sometimes-- if somebody hurts their friends, an evil character might, say, murder the transgressor and everybody that person cares about. But hey, at least they won't steal from the rest of the party!

That's actually one of the main reasons I want to play a dreaded 'Evil Character', simply because every evil character I've ever seen has been Chaotic Douche. I want to play, like, a Gunslinger Mafioso, who sees his adventuring companions as 'Family', and strives to honor and protect them. He just, you know, also cuts a few corners to do so.

Cut to a shot of him pistol whipping the Magic Shop clerk, and telling the rest of the guys that there was a 'discount sale' hours later before stocking his friends up.

LOL