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It is up to the GM, but BTW later Take 20 says:
Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
OK by this logic and I'm sure this has been debated on the boards when would a trap ever be sprung?
. PC: "GM before I enter the room I take a 20 to find traps..then, moving slowly through the room, I remain taking 20; my modifier to find traps at first level is: +6 (+3 class skill, +2 , dex, +1 for trap finding class feature) therefore, I find every trap below DC 27 GM, and since I'm a meta game muchkin', and know there won't be any traps in a 1st and 2nd level dungeon above DC 22...lets just cut the crap and say I found um all ok?"
sorry for the sarcasm but this is in no way a correct interpretation of perception regarding, searching for traps .... You Nerph so many abilities (trap spotting class feature anyone?) and challenges (like every trap where time isn't a factor!) within in the game that it hardly makes it even worth it to include traps at all.
But tell ya what..each GM interprets his game the way he she sees fit..as far as PFS is concerned I'm un-schooled on the ruling. I really not looking forward to carrying on a debate. If I'm wrong regarding RAW then I'm happily wrong and will strive to keep traps relevant in my own home games. If PFS adhere's to some non-sense rule that you can simply take 20 and instantly spot all traps (given time) I'll suck it up and try to enjoy the parts of the adventure that actually offer a challenge or role-playing opportunity ignoring the glaring mistake in their rules.
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You can only search a 10ft square (4 squares) at a time. Doing so is a move action. So twice in 6 seconds. Taking 20 is a minute.
If time isn't an issue, and there are no distractions or other dangers, then indeed you can Take 20 on an entire room.
But that's rarely ever the case.
Resolute I've reviewed the rules and respect your interpretation.. I suppose give enough time you could find proof of Aliens or Angels...but is it any fun? Maybe to some but It's not for me..as I mentioned..I'll quietly grit my teeth and just assume we spend one minute to stop every 10ft section of this dungeon just so we avoid the possibility of setting off a trap..
Oh wait possibly two minutes .... if there's a roof above the floor the floor is 10x10 right? so wouldn't the roof take up that same amount of square footage? Oh wait on areas that have a wall and a roof we're talking 3 minutes right? Did the rules specify cubit area or square area? Oh drat that corner area is going to be a problem 2 walls and a roof that's 4 minutes...Oh my God don't check the 10x10 niche for a trap buddy the ceiling vaults to 15ft high there! I don't want to do the math lets see (hmmm that's 3 walls x 1.5 + 2 (floors) and ceiling um GM! I need help should I round up or round down?)
Yep tons of fun lets do it!
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You can only search a 10ft square (4 squares) at a time. Doing so is a move action. So twice in 6 seconds. Taking 20 is a minute.
If time isn't an issue, and there are no distractions or other dangers, then indeed you can Take 20 on an entire room.
But that's rarely ever the case
Your definition of rarely and mine apparently differ...
#1
#2Jack, ever the professional, searches each door for traps.
Perception 'Take 20' = 27.
#3Mad Jack peers down the long corridor, then nods to the single door.
"Let's try that first."
He then takes his time searching it for traps
"Aye, well, we can work out what it is later. Onward!"
After checking the door at the end of the room for traps (and assuming that he finds none), Mad Jack opens it, to see what lies beyond.
Somewhere in Wisconsin Gary Gygax grave stirs..
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Oh btw time spent so far in the Dungeon checking for traps 69 minutes..this doesn't include time spent to try and break down doors investigate carvings recover the quill ect...If I'm GM I keep close track of spells like mage armor and light...cause this is going to take some time...hope you all brought extra rations! by the 5th or 6th room may be time for a rest whether we encounter a monster or not!
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But there's no verisimilitude being broken by allowing a character to Take 20. It's part of the Core Rulebook. And it makes sense both in- and out-of-character. Someone being slow and methodical.
What is wrong with that?
If you have a mechanic that can always defeat an obstacle, what is the point in either? I could see using the "take 20" on an area that you already know a trap exists ( Ethan in breaking into the CIA in mission impossible..Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade when they're inside the final temple) All these instances the character had a "story reason" to know there was a trap in this particular place and they needed to find it and either deactivate or bypass it..
But, that's a far cry from what's happening in our adventure. Jack is literately "spamming 20's" every step he takes to avoid a potential consequence it's sooo video game mentality; I don't have freaking words. Trying to beat a roll-playing game! Isn't the object to make a good story? So unless the temple starts collapsing forcing Jack to actually ya know "roll" in a "roll-playing game". the rest of us are basically stuck behind what amounts to a land mine clearing unit, to give us the OK to move forward..
I thought I signed up for a roll playing game but some people just gotta win....
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*shrugs*
I look at it this way - rolling is equivalent to eyeballing something for three seconds (a move action), and then deciding that is enough, whilst 'studying carefully' is taking a minute to do the same thing.
If you suspect there might be a trap, why wouldn't you be careful, instead of risking life and limb?
As I previously stated, I am only doing this in rooms (if there is no immediate threat), and on doorways (which are more likely to be trapped than anything else); I am *not* doing it on every 5' square (for example, I didn't do it on the stairwell down, or on the corridor).
That said...
I am perfectly happy for Dave to take point, and potentially trigger every trap, if he so wishes.
Jack just takes no responsibility for any injury incurred as a result.
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I mostly see taking 20 on traps are recognized as in the dungeon (which we already have seen one) and usually just on doorways and or obvious places.
It also doesn't matter so much as these levels, but taking 20 on every door or hallway is a good way to run out all your buffs, which usually there are a lot floating around at high level. In fact, Dale would appreciate it if you didn't run down his Wand of Mage Armor. ;)
I thought I signed up for a roll playing game but some people just gotta win....
People play the game for different reasons, and PFS is an amalgamation of all of those. While you might not like how a certain person plays the game, part of playing PFS is accepting how everyone does so (within reason, of course).
As well, it makes sense in character. Here's an example dialog:
Player 1: "Hold on a second. We've seen traps in this dungeon before. Let me take my time inspecting this door instead of rushing in."
Player 2: "Oh brother! Just get on with it already. You've done it for the last 4 doors and nothing was there. I'm hungry and just want to be done with this mission!"
Player 1: "But on the first door I found one didn't I?"
Player 2: "Grrrph."
Player 1 takes time to inspect the door.
Player 1: "Looks clear to me. You want to kick it down to make you feel better?"
Player 2: "Yeah I do, but man you suck the fun outta dungeon delving!"
Player 1: "There's nothing wrong with being careful."
Funnily enough, that dialog could be interpreted as a conversation in-character OR out-of-character. ;)
I'll also be slow to post for the next couple of days, as we're off to prep for a chainsaw party. (Seriously. Got a couple of downed trees on property we own, and we're inviting some friends over to help us cut them up.)
-Posted with Wayfinder
Re taking 10 or 20, this is PFS, so I'm stuck with the rules as written regardless of my own feelings on the matter. The Core rulebook gives it as an explicit example; not much more to say about it.
-Posted with Wayfinder
Back from the wilderness, with all limbs and digits still in place. I didn't expect to be incommunicado for quite so long, though.
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Glad to hear that things worked out for you. Now it is my turn for a hurricane. I am up in North Central Florida, near Gainesville, so all eyes are on Irma. When we had Matthew, we did not lose power but Hermine knocked it out for about two days so I am not sure what posting will be like for the next few days.
Good luck!
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My very first scenario my Tengu was diseased with Filth Fever, and a person at the table that I'd never met paid for my Remove Disease. Ever since then I happily contribute to status removals, so count me in for a portion of Warren's Restoration.
Who knows, it might not be the only thing someone gets afflicted with down here.
Alternatively, Drain is one of the few afflictions that you don't need to remedy by the end of the scenario. If you don't want to spend money or Prestige now, you can do it later when you have the extra to spare.
Glad you're OK!
I'll be on the road most of today, so posting will be sparse to nonexistent.
-Posted with Wayfinder
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So I went back and went through the post of the last week (since 9/21 or 7 days). I was trying to figure out why this room was taking so long to get organized ect.. mindful that there are a lot of doors to check..I'll just put the raw numbers down.
A quick definition may be in order..a "non action post" is where the story or action of the story didn't progress at all(like counting charges of wands ect..necessary but doesn't forward the game-play): there were relatively few post where characters inter-acted with each other but, roll-played something out that didn't necessarily forward the story but I included those post as "action" post anyway because RP is the whole point. (most of those post were about the corpse sex room)
action post is where a character did something like explore, rolled a save, talked with another character about what to do next ect..
So without further ado here's the count (it may not be perfect but it's close)
GM 13 total post (all GM's post are action post)
Warren 14 total post : 10 action , 4 non (to be fair her non action post were direct questions about the room)
Dave 15 total post: 9 action, 6 non ( and one rant I deleted)
Resolute 12 total post: 6 action, 6 non ( again to be fair there was some house keeping stuff that eventually needs to be done)
Jack 7 total post: 3 action, 4 non action
Dale 6 total post: 1 action, 5 non action ( his only action was to identify the wand; I almost put when he went over and looked in the sex tomb as an action but it had already been explored and he didn't interact with any characters)
Two blades 3 total post (maybe 4?) 2 action, 1 non
So we've had 60 total post in 168 hours
By my count 34 have actually progressed the story or added to the roll-play. 26 probably could have been saved or put on the discussion thread (I'm pointing the finger at myself here as well people). The GM is posting an average of twice a day as is myself, Warren, and Resolute is almost twice. Jack is once a day and Dale has posted nearly every day at least a blurb.. Two blades seems to have been busy over the weekend because his post rate is about every other day.
So what does this all mean? By agreement we said one post a day min and try to get one post in on the weekend? So far everyone is meeting that except one person ( and they explained they had a very busy weekend).
So if we're meeting expectations of posting rate what exactly is bogging us down?
It boils down to this, we need better content in the post we are posting. We can bring the house keeping and most of the questions over here to the discussion page true?
By keeping our post on the game play thread, game orientated (again guilty as charged walking shame faced to the hangman's noose now); We can achieve a much more efficient result.
My second suggestion is this..pick a leader! Warren post a lot and seems really dedicated to moving through this dungeon. My vote would be for her. Once we pick a leader, she/he just assigns us task and we do them!
(when combat comes around we are on our own) In this type of social contract, the GM could just bot a character that hasn't posted in 24hrs because the boted character already has an assigned task!
In conclusion..I think by letting go of the reigns and letting one person direct our movements and by keeping our post relevant to the task at hand; we could greatly improve the speed of game-play and actually finish this module!
Thoughts?
P.S.( I made efforts not to step on any one's toes to harshly and called out my own rants as being guilty of slow pace of play too. So please, let's try to keep it constructive.)
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I'll just say that counting and categorizing people's posts isn't healthy, Dave. It goes beyond gameplay and comes off as a little controlling.
We currently have Warren and Resolute at an open door and Jack at another open door. Let's see where that takes us.
Also TwoBlades is dealing with the aftermath of one of the most damaging hurricanes in US history so I'm more than happy to give them some posting leeway.
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The real slowdown of this game is the module itself. I have GMed it twice in PbP and the sheer amount of doors and pathways slow it down. It's not anyone's fault... it's just the way the module is. Heck, it causes slowdown in-person too it's just not as pronounced as it is in PbP.
I think a leader is a great idea. I call not-it since I am playing a sorcerer who really shouldn't be opening doors, plus I have GMed this at least 3 times by my recollection.
One of the things that really slows down dungeon crawls by PbP is when you have too large a range of options. GH is really, really bad about this, and you're in about the worst location of the lot. There are *twelve* sets of doors in this room, and it doesn't matter that most of them lead to dead ends--you don't know that going in.
Incidentally, there are a couple of places you can get to that can take you outside the published scope of the adventure. If you reach any of them I'll warn you ooc, because they don't exactly come with warning signs.
I'll be traveling today, and will be slow to post.
Apologies for the silence these past few days--I was off work Friday and spent that day and the weekend dealing with home stuff, and then work today has been pretty busy.
Warren--normally I'd joke about having your character take the lead while you're gone, but since you've been doing that anyway it's not as funny.
Good thing to be doing.
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GM quick reminder on the rules of light. Both Resolute and Dale have low light vision. Normally a lantern shines out two 30' radius regular light and another 30' beyond that with dim light conditions. (this means that unless our enemies are attempting stealth checks..everyone can see them if they are within 60ft of Dave's current position.)
With creatures/PCs that have low light vision..all light radius is doubled (ie. normal light is 60' and dim light out to 120') this makes it highly likely that both Dale and Resolute saw the enemies (unless they were using stealth) as soon as Dave turned the corner with his lantern. (As they could see out to 120')
There are several threads about this but if you want quick concise clarification I'd recommend listening to the third episode of "chronicles podcast". It features an excellent piece on lighting according to the Pathfinder rules.
One last thing of note..even if we can see them now..our enemies will get a concealment bonus beyond 30' radius of the light if our PC doesn't posses low light vision. (ie. 20% miss chance) Thus if warren were to fire her sling from 50' she'not only have to roll a to hit roll...but also a % dice for concealment ( my group always plays the low roll misses ie. 01-20 miss 21-00 hit: Perhaps you might want to declare your own concealment range rules before combat begins in earnest)
Dave, you are correct re lighting, but the hall layout makes the results come out a little bit differently from what you're describing. I'll do a retcon.
The skellies have claw attacks, in addition to their bows. AIUI, then, they threaten, just like a polearm fighter with a cestus. Thoughts?
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Those are actually two different examples.
1. The skeletons can threaten while having a bow out. This is because they can just have the bow in one hand and use the other to threaten with their claw. There's no reason to continue holding a bow two-handed after their turn. So in this case, yes they can threaten with their claw while holding a bow in the other hand. This one is pretty clear-cut.
2. A polearm fighter has to choose between threatening with two hands with their polearm or threatening with one hand with their cestus, and can't do both at the same time. (FYI, there's also a FAQ that you can't do it with armor spikes either without having a hand free to use them) The polearm fighter has to choose what they are wielding after their turn, so in that case they are either threatening at reach with the polearm or adjacent with the cestus. (DISCLAIMER: This is mostly my opinion of it based on lots of FAQ and dev posts, which can be summarized HERE)
Well, before I go clawing at Jack I'd like to be sure that I've gotten it right.