Rynjin |
Full BaB: 6 points
2 Good saves (Fort and Will): 3 points
d8 HD: 1 point
6+Int skills: 3 points
Weapon Proficiency (Custom assortment): 2 points
Medium Armor: 2 points
Extracts: 6 points
Mutagen: 3 points
= 26/25
Weapons: Kukri, Machete, Starknife, Gandasa, Scimitar, Sword Cane, Bec de Corbin, Syringe Spear, Longbow, Shortbow, Falcata, Whip, Bola, Brutal Bola, Hand Crossbow
Trying to figure out what I should drop ATM. Unless we wanted to hash out right now what the new costs for casting should be.
Simple solution:
6 level casting, no buy-in.
Divine casting, 1 point buy-in.
Arcane casting, 2 point buy-in.
Then the same for progression?
6 level casting, equal to spell level.
Divine casting, 1.5x spell level (2 points at 1st)
Arcane casting, 2x spell level.
Since I think your main complaint (Lemmy) was that Divine and Arcane cost the same, but don't exactly deliver the same?
Lemmy |
Hmmm... Hex Channeler seems like an exploit to get both Hex and Channel Energy without paying for the latter... Take them separately...
Additionally, while I won't change it (at least not without further consideration and hearing your opinions)... I'm starting to think Divine Grace is way too good in FFCS. There is zero reason not to take it, as it pretty much garantees the character won't ever fail a save, especially if it's based on an attribute that already boosts your saves.
I'm not a fan of SoL spells, but I'd also like offensive spell to remain a threat.
Lemmy |
Trying to figure out what I should drop ATM. Unless we wanted to hash out right now what the new costs for casting should be.
Simple solution:
6 level casting, no buy-in.
Not a good idea... 6-level casting is probably the strongest option in FFCS in its current form.
TSince I think your main complaint (Lemmy) was that Divine and Arcane cost the same, but don't exactly deliver the same?
Actually my main complain is that the cost progresses at a different rate than the point gain, which guarantees the system will break sooner or later... Either you save a bunch of points for something you'll never use (say, you expected to reach 9th level spells, but the game ended at 15th level) or you stop being able to advance your casting (e.g.: the game goes beyond 20th level).
And in either case, leveling up is really freaking boring for full casters. You can never select new class features... Which kinda defeats the whole point of FFCS.
The disparity in spell list power is also a concern, of course (e.g.: why grab the Magus or Ranger spell lists when you can pay the same for the Wizard or Hunter one?), but more easily fixable... And a simple rule of restricting spell list to their original accompanying BAB progressions should help a lot to balance the.
Scavion |
Hmmm... Hex Channeler seems like an exploit to get both Hex and Channel Energy without paying for the latter... Take them separately...
Not trying to get hexes to be completely honest. I intend to use the Class feature solely for Channeling. Paying more points for better channeling. (5 as opposed to 3)
Lemmy |
Lemmy wrote:Hmmm... Hex Channeler seems like an exploit to get both Hex and Channel Energy without paying for the latter... Take them separately...Not trying to get hexes to be completely honest. I intend to use the Class feature solely for Channeling.
Then why not simply take Channel Energy and save 2 points?
Rynjin |
Not sure how to fix that without undervaluing casting.
Maybe make it a 3/4/5 point purchase at every "up level"?
So:
6 level casting: 3 points at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th?
Full Divine: 4 at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc.
Full Arcane: 5 at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, etc.
Or maybe 5 for all.
I don't really like the idea of restricting based on BaB, but maybe on one "step". Ful casting is 3/4 BaB max, while 6th can hit Full if they want.
I made Leng because there's a lot of great "throw down in melee" spells that are Personal only on the Wizard list, but they can't use them.
Scavion |
Scavion wrote:Then why not simply take Channel Energy and save 2 points?Lemmy wrote:Hmmm... Hex Channeler seems like an exploit to get both Hex and Channel Energy without paying for the latter... Take them separately...Not trying to get hexes to be completely honest. I intend to use the Class feature solely for Channeling.
Increasing the amount of Channel Energy dice through Extra Hex.
Lemmy |
Not sure how to fix that without undervaluing casting.
A fixed price could do it... But I suggested that before, so I assume you don't like the idea.
How about... Dividing the point gain into 3 separate models?
model 1 - Gains full BAB and up to 4th level casting: 5pts per level.
model 2 - Gains medium BAB and up to either 6th level casting or to 9th level divine casting: 5pts per level. gains... 2 or 3 points per level
model 3 - Gains slow BAB and any casting of choice... 1 point per level...
Well... In hindsight, this is basically the same thing as a having a fixed price... So... I don't know. :P
Lemmy |
Increasing the amount of Channel Energy dice through Extra Hex.
That... Might make Channel Energy a bit too powerful, though... I don't really mind having good healers, but the campaign itself already gives a pretty big boost to channeling, with you adding your level to heal, getting more uses as you level up and being able to increase the die size.
Let me think on that one...
Scavion |
Scavion wrote:Increasing the amount of Channel Energy dice through Extra Hex.That... Might make Channel Energy a bit too powerful, though... I don't really mind having good healers, but the campaign itself already gives a pretty big boost to channeling, with you adding your level to heal, getting more uses as you level up and being able to increase the die size.
Let me think on that one...
I have to use either feats and/or my hex progression to up the channel dice. The hex channeler doesn't increase it for free.
I'll respect any decision you make however, it's not a dealbreaker for me in any way.
Rynjin |
Rynjin wrote:Not sure how to fix that without undervaluing casting.A fixed price could do it... But I suggested that before, so I assume you don't like the idea.
I don't remember that. What was the price(s)?
Rynjin |
I do think the thing I listed earlier could work.
It halves the cost and staggers them out across levels evenly.
What do you think of the 3/4/5 plan? Or even 5 across the board, though that would make Spontaneous Arcane and Prepared 6 level cost the same per levels, which seems off.
I think in that case, 4 points is fair for 4 and 6 level casting, and 5 for full.
So that would make the cost:
4 level casting: 16 points
6 level casting: 24 points
9 level casting: 45 points
Basically, halving the cost of spellcasting entirely.
This is a double edged sword. It allows for diversity with casting and cool abilities, but it DOES up the general power level.
Lemmy |
Lemmy wrote:I don't remember that. What was the price(s)?Rynjin wrote:Not sure how to fix that without undervaluing casting.A fixed price could do it... But I suggested that before, so I assume you don't like the idea.
-.-'
Rynjin wrote:Yes, but what lists cost what?Well... My suggestion would be:
Full casters list: 5 buy in; 4 pts per level (total 85 pts - 71% of your total points)
Half-casters: 5 buy in; 2 pts per level (total 45 pts - 37.5% of your total points)
Pseudo-casters: 3 buy in; 1 pt per level (total 19~23 pts - 16~21% of your total points)Maybe full-caster lists could have different costs for arcane and divine spell lists (e.g.: divine full casters costing 3 points per level or arcane casters having a higher buy in), but I think that'd be unnecessary and possibly unbalanced.
The ability to spontaneously cast Cure/Summon Nature Ally spells should probably be given freely to the appropriate spell lists, and maybe sold separately for 1 or 3 pts for those who want it.
Rynjin |
Actually, shouldn't that be 81 points, 43 points, and 22 points?
Like, 9 points at 1st level for full casting is pretty harsh. Clerics become impossible to build, for instance.
3/4 BaB: 3
2 good saves: 3
2+Int skills: Free
d8 HD: 1
Simple weapons: Free
Medium Armor: 2
Domains: 5
Channel: 3
Spontaneous Casting: 1
Casting: 9
27/25
And still one point off if you make Spont casting free.
Ad there's no wiggle room for something like better skills or a higher HD, or more weapons. Should probably leave it at just the buy-in at 1st. Otherwise, I think it might work better, yeah.
You want to try it? This would be effective across Myrial as well.
Rynjin |
Full BaB: 6 points
2 Good saves (Fort and Will): 3 points
d8 HD: 1 point
6+Int skills: 3 points
Weapon Proficiency (Custom assortment): 2 points
Light Armor: 1 point
Extracts: 5 points
Mutagen: 3 points
= 24/25 (1st level)
---------------------------
Extracts: 2 points
Ceaseless Observation (Empiricist archetype): 2 points
= 28/30 (2nd level)
---------------------------
Extracts: 2 points
Canny Defense (Kensai Magus): 1 point (?)
Investigator Talent (Expanded Inspiration): 2 points
= 33/35 (3rd level)
----------------------------
Extracts: 2 points
Studied Combat: 5 points
= 40/40 (4th level)
Weapons: Kukri, Machete, Starknife, Gandasa, Scimitar, Sword Cane, Bec de Corbin, Syringe Spear, Longbow, Shortbow, Falcata, Whip, Bola, Brutal Bola, Hand Crossbow
I put a (?) by Canny Defense because I wanted your input. My judgement was that it was inferior to some other, similar abilities that already cost 3 points, or are part of a bundle. Namely, Nimble (Gunslinger), AC Bonus (Brawler) and the Monk AC Bonus, which either freely scale by level, or do that AND add a stat. Do you agree, or should I bump the price up?
Lemmy |
Hey, guys... Sorry I've been absent the last few days, but it's been difficult to find the time to sit in front of my PC. I'm mostly only making quick pots from my cel phone these days.
Work and family have been taking a lot of my time, and one of my friends is going through a really rough patch right now...
I believe things will calm down starting tomorrow night, so I'll be back to posting by then.
Sorry the sudden hiatus.
Lemmy |
Ah! My bad! I thought I had already replied to these questions before the short hiatus during which I couldn't post.
Scavion:
- You can use the Inquisitor spell list if you want. I don't mind. If you're making it prepared, I think your best option is using thr Warpriest's table for prepared spells per day.
- I'd like input from everyone to know what you think about Channeling Hex... While it's not gam breaking, having a character who can heal everyone (possibly twice per round) for[ (character level)*d10 + character level] might be problematic... I'm leaning towards allowing it, but I'm unsure of what would be the effect on combat.
Rynjin
- Remember my unarmed & unarmored class variant? For Canny Defense, I suggest you make it something similar to that and charge the same cost of the equivalent armor proficiency.
- Clerics are already impossible to build due to having to save 8 points at 1st level (in addition to the initial 6 pts for spell casting). Also, unless I made a mistake, it should be a total cost of 85 for full casting (5 buy-in + 4 pts per level x 20 levels). I suppose lowering the buy-in to 4 pts and giving spontaneous casting for free to the appropriate spell lists should work.
Rynjin |
Lots o' healing probably isn't going to be TOO problematic, except for prolonging fights where we flail around and nobody gets anything but lucky hits. I.E. all of them.
I don't remember your Unarmed/Armored class, no.
Lemmy |
Well... I'll allow Scavion's healing... If nothing else, it works as a test. If it turns out to be too much of a problem, we can rework it later, but I'm willing to at least give it a chance.
On the unarmes/unarmores variant... You can find it in my list of house-rulea, but the quick version of the AC bonus was like this:
At 1st level, the character switches his armor proficiency for a Dodge bonus to AC. If all he haw is Light armor, he adds a bonus equal to one of hia mental attributes, if he's proficient with Medium armor, the bonus raises by +1 for every 8 levels in the class, if he has Heavy armor proficiency, it instead raises by +1 for every 4 levels.
Lemmy |
Uh... Do you want switch back to standard PF and use homebrew archetypes to create characters similar to what you have now?
I like FFCS, and after you have a nice vision of what you want, it isn't all that tiresome (specially if like me, you keep a Excel file with notes on what you want to take at what levels and how much it costs. :P)
I'm okay either way, but I do enjoy creating FFCS characters and NPCs.