OGGM's Kingdom Builder

Game Master Jeff Przybylo

This is the Kingdom Builder thread for OGGM's Kingmaker Campaign.

Kingdom Stuff:


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Female Dwarf Paladin (Holy Tactician) 4 | HP 29/39 | AC 16 T 10 FF 16 CMD 17 (21 vs Trip and Bullrush) | F +8 R +4 W +7 | Init +0 | Perc +0 (Darkvision) | Status: Lookout

Dear DM:
Not amused with the dwarves reaction. My take was to try to make some sense into them, and if unable, punch them to a pulp, tie them up, and make the guards send them packing home.
I was thinking in lines like:
"I didn't decapitate the Stag Lord to suffer idiots like you."
What she would accept instead of knocking them out is to make them swear fealty to Talia and the new kingdom, make them all conscripts in the new army (with her as general) and remind them "Oathbreakers die", another of the Six Rivers Freedoms.
She won't allow a group of rogues take the gold mine, even if they are dwarves. You have what you hold. She has the mine, and she won't relinquish it without a fight.
So, my point is, Magna isn't going to let them go away without them swearing fealty to Talia, or stopping them by force if necessary. You are with her or against her, and them being dwarves is no excuse.
So we will need to compromise here... do we roll initiative, or the dwarves take it down a notch?
Note: I would expect Magna called for Dwarves friendly with her, not some sycophants. You send me sycophants, she will kill sycophants.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

"Talia." Naralesh says. Having quietly blended into the background of the conversation like usual, the elf suddenly makes his presence known. With Darrick and the others gone, he addresses the Viscountess. "These dwarves may not be your subjects yet, but they are not our enemies. Rankle against your decrees they might, but I think we should restrain ourselves from any talk of violence against them until they have proven they cannot be dealt with peacefully. They carry the same prejudices Magna brought with her when she first joined us. We should not treat them as though they cannot come to see Kaalib's people as more than monsters."

Naralesh glances toward the door, where the others had recently walked out. "This is a sign that we must solidify our alliance with the Sootscales, however. Darrick is right - there's been no talk of an agreement with them to work the mines. We've mostly left them alone as we build - do we even know they still honor our agreement? We should not leave the silver mine unexploited, but it need not be dwarves who plumb its riches. Kobolds are avid tunnelers. If we offer them protection and allegiance, as citizens or vassals of Fairhaven, perhaps they would agree to harvest the silver for our fledgling nation."

He sighs. "With that in mind... I should go after Kaalib and Orsheval. I don't think he was headed to tell the kobolds 'all is well.'" He looks to Talia. "When I catch him, what should I say? Do his people have Viscountess Khavortorov's word that she will not allow dwarves to assault their home?" It is obvious that his question is rhetorical, but everyone present knows it is Talia's responsibility to make the decree.

Naralesh is a skilled rider, and Kaalib isn't too great on horseback (with zero ranks in ride, am I correct?). He should be able to catch up to the kobold and have a conversation.


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HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Also, Magna, oh god please don't start a fight with the dwarves.


Female Dwarf Paladin (Holy Tactician) 4 | HP 29/39 | AC 16 T 10 FF 16 CMD 17 (21 vs Trip and Bullrush) | F +8 R +4 W +7 | Init +0 | Perc +0 (Darkvision) | Status: Lookout

if a war they want, a war they will get... I prefer to have it sooner rather than later.


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HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Also also, Magna, you asked for dwarves, you get dwarves. I don't see that they're being unreasonable (for dwarves) or sycophantic (for dwarves) - they're just dwarves: as exasperating to you as you doubtless were to Talia and the others way back when.

Is it possible (gasp!) that Magna's proximity to other humanoids means that she's becoming more reasonable contaminated in the eyes of "true dwarves"? ;-)

Something to ponder. I think OGGM is doing a fabulous job with them (and I suspect is having a lot of fun in the process winding us all up...)

EDIT: Also, also, also - you are a Paladin of Torag; while that comes with some nice 'perks' (like being able to kill surrendering enemies without falling), I'm damn sure you aren't allowed to raise arms against your own people just because they're p*ssing you off. Not without some SERIOUS consequences. Tread carefully: the Forgefather doesn't strike me as someone who has the remotest sense of humour about these things*.

*or about anything at all, actually


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Seconded. In these dwarves, Magna is looking through a mirror at the dwarf she used to be, not the paladin she currently is. She has to take the opportunity to find a better resolution to this than "kill whoever doesn't agree with me" - and frankly, I think she's finally ready for that kind of character development. This plotline is about Magna, in my mind. She proved that a paladin can kick ass when she decapitated the Stag Lord. Now she gets to prove what else a paladin can do.


Edric 'Godly' wrote:
"To talk, sir dwarf. Nothing more. I understand that you have objections to the Viscountess' decision to leave Kobolds in the lands on her borders. May I ask why that is? I'm afraid I know very little of them, or of your own fine people." Edric flashes his biggest smile and decides to play the idiot for a little while.

Gaerd looks at Edric like he is crazy. Not for the first time, the Brighthammers have been presented with - what they see - as an example of insanity on behalf of the Fairhaven government. "Because they're kobolds, lad. Because they're kobolds." He turns back and looks out over the hills of the Kamelands. "Ye know, this land is tough, good bones. We came here at the invite of yer General, did ye know that? She asked fer us, and we came. To mine gold, it were. Now we get guff about the kobolds in yer silver mine." He looks slowly at Edric.

"Kobolds, by Torag! Ida thought a dwarf had more sense! Ya need not worry about the Brighhammers, lad. We'll be movin' on." He turns back to the trail and does not speak again. To Edric or anyone from Fairhaven.


Vosil...

Darrick and the others do not respond to Vosil's outburst. Kesten looks like he would have something to say, but a sharp look from Darrick cuts him short.

Sometime later, a scout reports that the three of them rode out from Concord, heading north.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:

OK, slight retcon.

Talia turns on Naralesh, her face flushed red. "No sign? You have what you hold! That is a threat if I've ever heard one! They plan to do one of two things; take our gold mine, or take our silver mine. We'll let them make the first move, but make no mistake - those brothers intend to do one or the other!"

Implaccable. Unflappable. Naralesh. The elf continues on, unbothered by Talia's outburst, prattling on about kobolds and silver mines, and eventually, the Countess's rage subsides. Sighing, she looks to the elf, who has, no doubt, seen his share of outbursts in his long life.

"Yes, yes, Darrick is right about the silver mine. We need to bring the kobolds under our wing. Perhaps we can arrange a priest of Abadar to go among their people? Kaalib certainly took well to the faith."

"I'd planned to ride to Kaalib and let him know we'll honor our agreement, but you're welcome to do so instead. Return immediately to our council. We need to discuss plans for a militia."

"Everyone else, please meet me there in fifteen minutes. Where's my damn diplomat?"

------------------

Meeting, minus Edric and perhaps Magna, who may be with dwarves as well?

EDIT: Going to hold off on this, as we've lost Asha, Darrick, and Kesten?


Let me make something PERFECTLY CLEAR: you do NOT hold the gold mine or the silver mine. When and if you claim the hex, then you will hold the gold mine. You FOUND it, but in the River Kingdoms, that isn't the same as HOLDING it. You CANNOT claim the silver mine hex. According to your 'treaty' as you call it (and you are really stretching the agreement you made to call it that), that hex belongs to the kobolds. Any deals to work the mines must be done through diplomacy. Rules-wise, it's going to be tough to get the BP bonus from that hex.

Magna, you are on very dangerous ground here. Those dwarves came at your invite, but they are not obligated to DO anything. If you want to get to work, you were going to have to make it worthwhile, and it's now too late for that. They aren't 'rogues' because they don't belong to you or anyone else for that matter. As far as the Brighthammers are concerned, Fairhaven has made it's choice.

Vosil, good post, but you KNOW that will have consequences.

I need to know now where everyone is located and what is your intent at that location? Do not try further to talk to the Brighthammers. There may be a time later, but it isn't now.


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LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:

Yeah, I understand the mechanical differences there (and sorry for any confusion/consternation it has caused on my part - truly not my intention, OGGM). Talia stated earlier that she intends to act as if we hold the entirety of the Greenbelt, to deter anyone from claiming other parts. Of course that isn't true, and please be assured that I, the player, understand the difference (and Talia probably will too, very shortly).

Apologies!

EDIT: Talia's headed to the meeting room.


Talia Khavortorov wrote:

Yeah, I understand the mechanical differences there (and sorry for any confusion/consternation it has caused on my part - truly not my intention, OGGM). Talia stated earlier that she intends to act as if we hold the entirety of the Greenbelt, to deter anyone from claiming other parts. Of course that isn't true, and please be assured that I, the player, understand the difference (and Talia probably will too, very shortly).

Apologies!

EDIT: Talia's headed to the meeting room.

Thanks for the clarification, but no need to apologize. I just want clear up potential confusion. This format - like all written formats - makes it tough to be clear sometimes. As long as you guys are having fun, I know I am ;)

EDIT: Yes, three NPCs have left for now. This WILL have repercussions on the next Build Phase unless someone does something about it. Have your meeting, time to talk to them will be later.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

...yes, there are consequences: you need to get us 3 more NPCs. On a more serious note, this is the feudal system: you get to advise your lord/lady, but once they've made a decision (which Talia did, clearly) you don't get to keep disputing it. It's testament to the NG nature of the kingdom that they're allowed to abandon their posts: a more despotic king could have them brought back and whipped for desertion and disobedience.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:

Ha, just realized that if Talia doesn't ride off, she's there for Vosil's outburst.

It is Talia's turn to stand, mouth agape, as Vosil lays into Darrick in the strange tongue of the southern lands. Frowning, she watches - and lets - Asha, Kesten, and Darrick leave. Let them cool off. Patch things up in a bit.

"Thank you for your support, Vosil," Talia says, the now familiar headache perching behind her temples, "but you should probably apologize to Darrick when you see him next. Men like that don't take kindly to insults."

Figure this is easier than more retconning.

--------------

When word comes that the three advisors have been spotted riding north, the Countess pinches the bridge of her nose. Looking around the room, at the few of her council left, Talia smiles, more rueful grin than expression of happiness.

"That went poorly."


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

"I think," says Naralesh, "That bringing order to these lands is going to be a lot harder than slaying a Stag Lord. It's becoming apparent that we're going to have to speak in the language of the River Kings after all - we must hold the mine, not simply claim it."

"If these dwarves leave - that is their loss. We will find other miners, and the gold mine will be ours. The more pressing matter is the apparent vacancies on the Wise Council."

He nods at Talia. "I will be back with all haste, and with our treasurer."

-

Hurrying outside, he mounts Susan and rides off in the direction of the Sootscales' lair. It's not long before he spots a kobold riding ahead of him - spurring his mare on, he catches up with his friend.

"Kaalib," he calls out. "You have naught to fear from the dwarves. Talia, for good or for ill, has sent them packing - and Darrick, Asha, and Kestern have apparently abandoned their posts." He sighs. "I think you understand better than any of us the implications of that for Fairhaven. Talia has called for us to meet, and we need your help."


Vosil Comarenza wrote:
...yes, there are consequences: you need to get us 3 more NPCs. On a more serious note, this is the feudal system: you get to advise your lord/lady, but once they've made a decision (which Talia did, clearly) you don't get to keep disputing it. It's testament to the NG nature of the kingdom that they're allowed to abandon their posts: a more despotic king could have them brought back and whipped for desertion and disobedience.

Ah, but it is the PCs that did the escalating. Your councilors merely gave you advice. No one disputed Talia's decision. In fact, Darrick said she should hold to her word. They gave her an out, and were chastised for it. There was a much better way to handle that. Go back and read it, I was very careful in what I put down. They didn't get upset until things got strange: Talia said maybe you should kill the brothers and deal with the rest! Then Vosil goes off on them. In any other kingdom, a duel would be in order. And by the way: abandon their post? Like Kaalib and Edric did? Kaalib's duty is not to the kobolds, it's to Fairhaven, and until he 'retires' and stays with them permanently, it will stay that way. You don't know for sure where the 3 are going, or if they've 'given up'. The difficulties of rule...

Have the meeting, get your policy together, then mend fences. I moved them all away to bring the level down and let you guys play the Privy Council for a bit.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary
Talia Khavortorov wrote:
"Thank you for your support, Vosil," Talia says, the now familiar headache perching behind her temples, "but you should probably apologize to Darrick when you see him next. Men like that don't take kindly to insults."

Vosil runs a forefinger and thumb along his mustache and beard, only to find - much to his surprise - that his hand is shaking. He hastily coughs and buries his hand in his doublet.

"I have few principles, Lady, but I stand by those I have. And I do not abandon my friends - I have few enough as it is. If you order it, I shall of course apologise. But I shall likely never trust those three again: if they would throw Kaalib to the worgs-" here he gestures to the pelt of Howls-in-the-Hills, elegantly spread before the fireplace - "then what guarantee do we have, elf, dwarf, Varisian or Shoanti?"

He sighs. "I am bitterly disappointed in Asha, especially. Old Deadeye teaches that community is as community does - she should never have turned her back on Kaalib like that."

"My advice? Find new councillors."


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Gods, where do I start with this?!

Old Guy GM wrote:
Ah, but it is the PCs that did the escalating.

Uh, no. Escalation was when they suggested turning against one of the founder members of the kingdom. Leaving aside the fact we CAN'T (because he's a fellow PC), there's no way that was ever going to fly in a NG kingdom

Old Guy GM wrote:
They gave her an out, and were chastised for it.

An "out" that involves turning a blind eye to the massacre of Kaalib's tribe. No dice.

Old Guy GM wrote:
There was a much better way to handle that.

I'm listening. Bear in mind the constraints above (fellow PC, founder member of NG kingdom).

Old Guy GM wrote:
They didn't get upset until things got strange: Talia said maybe you should kill the brothers and deal with the rest!

How is that "stranger" than betraying one of our own?! Which they seemed perfectly happy with.

tl;dr: the escalation was Darrick's reaction (or lack thereof) to Kaalib's "what is man" speech*. That was when the s#%@ hit the fan.

*Actually, it was a FAR better speech than my paraphrase suggests, it didn't just deal with emotion, but with facts, like the fact that Kaalib has proven indispensable and loyal (over a far longer period of time than Darrick has), and that - as far as we know - the Sootscale tribe has kept to the agreement, and that Kaalib's contributions are worth more than a silver mine...

Silver Crusade

HP: 212/212. 0/16 | AC:30 | F:+23+ R:+17 W+20 | Itm/Med/Perc/Surv +18, Acr/Lore +15, Ath +23 | +23, 3d12+7+8 | Active Conditions:

OGGM - will Edric be able to run into the councillors on his way back or did the dwarves go in a different direction?
On the subject of dwarves Edric will leave them alone as long as they don't seem to be headed towards the Kobold's silver mine. If they do then he'll do something drastic...

As to the issue of 'abandoning posts' there is surely a degree of context required. Edric left a note about what he was doing, and as a matter of fact - does not have an actual post of any significance, and was attempting to help. Perhaps more importantly he didn't ride of having just had a disagreement with his feudal superior - therefore he still retains a degree of trust and the assumption of 'abandoning his post' will not be made for a couple of days (hopefully this would hold true even if he were an NPC). Kaalib also has, what most people would call, a highly legitimate reason to be rushing off right now. As long as he returns within a reasonable time frame and can account for his time then again no reason to consider desertion. Edric won't consider the councillors to be 'deserting' unless they fail to come back for a considerable period of time or until the kingdom suffers by their inaction.

Lastly, wanted to say to all - great story coming together here guys. It is fully appreciated here, even though Edric prefers to appreciate it from a distance :D)


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I think both Vosil and OGGM have made some valid points here - What option do we have other than what we did? Do you want us to kill the kobolds, betraying Kaalib, a fellow PC, and just settle for "we want the silver so let's take it?" Our characters and our kingdom are good-aligned - were we supposed to abandon all of that the moment some outsiders show up asking for silver?

I naturally assumed we weren't even supposed to consider that option. Yes it might be economically smart to murder anyone who holds a resource we want, but to suddenly lose three leadership roles because of it seems very harsh - and while I can't know your intentions, it feels like a punishment.

On the other hand, Vosil's outburst was incredibly hostile and confrontational. I don't know what the purpose of that was if not to provoke Darrick. Also, Talia's line about casually killing the brothers does sound utterly insane. So much that I couldn't figure out how to respond to it in-character for over a day.

I think some out-of-character discussion is in order right now, to figure out what the heck the situation is here. I don't think it's OGGM's intention to make this a "players vs. GM" situation but that's sort of what it feels like.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Also:

Are the dwarves leaving? Have we lost the chance to have them work the mines? How are they represented in the Kingdom Builder rules?

Have our NPCs really quit? It seems like they, in unison, agreed to resign together, without saying any words regarding this. Do Asha and Kestern really know and agree with Darrick that closely?

I am super confused by this situation, and it seems to be getting more chaotic.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Naralesh wrote:
On the other hand, Vosil's outburst was incredibly hostile and confrontational. I don't know what the purpose of that was if not to provoke Darrick. Also, Talia's line about casually killing the brothers does sound utterly insane. So much that I couldn't figure out how to respond to it in-character for over a day.

Ha, yeah, reading back it sounds pretty bad, and I totally get the advisor's reactions. Chalk that up to the player not having much time and wanting to get a post in. I'll be much more precise with Talia's wording in the future. Moving the rest to the discussion tab...


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HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I feel like I should add that I love this plotline and this style of play, but I also want to understand the situation better. I think the NPCs are all being roleplayed beautifully (though I am at a loss why Kestern, Asha, and Darrick are suddenly seemingly "in league" with one another).

I am eager to conquer the political challenges of this game as well as the martial ones. I just hope to get some more insight into just where we stand.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

I agree with Naralesh on all counts. I freely admit that my post got away from me; I just got the sense that Vosil - who has a flair for the dramatic - was deeply moved both on a practical and personal level by Kaalib's speech; and Darrick's frankly cold reaction to it was equivalent to lighting the blue touch paper and retiring. Especially since Darrick is a newcomer who's contributed nothing; he hasn't earned our respect the way Asha and Kesten have. But the way I did it obscured the points I was making about Concord and "we built this together" (as well as the problems with "shabby compromises" - there was a lot in that post that wasn't insults); which was counterproductive.

I'm with Talia, too; as leaders, we (I!) need to be MUCH more careful with how we (I!) behave, and post accordingly. The trouble is that Vosil's player doesn't always go in for quiet introspection; I'll need to work on that OOC!

Soooooo.... lesson learned, I guess? Although if the lesson is "screw the principles, take the money" then I'm not sure where that leaves us. Hoping OGGM can shed some light.

Silver Crusade

HP: 212/212. 0/16 | AC:30 | F:+23+ R:+17 W+20 | Itm/Med/Perc/Surv +18, Acr/Lore +15, Ath +23 | +23, 3d12+7+8 | Active Conditions:
Vosil Comarenza wrote:
Soooooo.... lesson learned, I guess? Although if the lesson is "screw the principles, take the money" then I'm not sure where that leaves us.

In the wrong game... Two paladins remember? :) Screwing the principles is not an option. (Although if the paladins get together then they could be 'screwing the principals' ;) )


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HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary
Edric 'Godly' wrote:
Screwing the principles is not an option. (Although if the paladins get together then they could be 'screwing the principals' ;) )

DAGNABBIT LET ME DRINK MY COFFEE IN PEACE YOU MONSTER!!!!!


Sorcerer (Tattooed Draconic) 4 | HP 20/20 | AC 14 (18 w MA); T 13; Ff 12(16) | CMD 14 | Fort +2; Ref +3; Will +4 | Init +2 | Perception +11
Naralesh wrote:
"Kaalib," he calls out. "You have naught to fear from the dwarves. Talia, for good or for ill, has sent them packing - and Darrick, Asha, and Kestern have apparently abandoned their posts." He sighs. "I think you understand better than any of us the implications of that for Fairhaven. Talia has called for us to meet, and we need your help."[/b]

Kaalib pulled his steed to a stop when Naralesh came for him. Once he hears the all clear, he calls Orsheval back as well. It was good they caught him this fast, or the thrush would have been out of reach. The kobold nodded to the elf and turned his horse around to ride beside him back.

Once Orsheval comes back and lands in his mouth, the little sorcerer cleared his throat and spoke. "Of course this is my fault. I haven't gotten control of my people yet. If I can become chief, then I can more properly represent and lead them into a more prosperous future. I just thought I had more time to prepare. I should have rode the noteriety of killing the Stag Lord right into the duel. The time was right and I hesitated."


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Status:
HP: 28/43; AC: 18/14/14; Saves: F +6, R +8, W +3; Init: +4 (+2 in the forest); Per: +11 (+2 more if in forests);

Dregan will come riding up quickly to the castle he is dressed in dirty overalls. Reigning in his horse he recovers his voice before asking "Is everyone alright? I heard there was a fight. Anything I can do?"


Female Dwarf Paladin (Holy Tactician) 4 | HP 29/39 | AC 16 T 10 FF 16 CMD 17 (21 vs Trip and Bullrush) | F +8 R +4 W +7 | Init +0 | Perc +0 (Darkvision) | Status: Lookout

I just want to point out Magna is not an idiot, not a fool. She would invite dwarves that would be allies with her, not any dwarves.
And, being a Paladin of Torag doesn't mean she won't attack dwarves that threaten Talia, her friends or the new kingdom. No reason why left some "renegade" dwarves reclaim an area, if she can prevent it.
They want to mine the gold, they need to swear allegiance. If they don't, they are no better than any other brigand. She didn't invite them to steal the mine from them. That is silly.


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HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I think that the dwarves are fantastic. They're exactly what I would expect from a dwarf - single-minded, self-assured, set in their ways, and they don't like kobolds. I think they're some of the most believable characters we've encountered. I get that Magna would want to summon dwarves who were loyal to her commands, but who is she in dwarven society that she has that kind of authority to pick and choose a legion of obedient miners? The only reason these dwarves came is that there's promise of riches for them in this new frontier country.

I imagine Magna thought she had that kind of authority. In her mind, obviously, the dwarves would send their most loyal, hard workers to aid Torag's chosen, and they wouldn't think of questioning her authority. The realization of the truth should make Magna open her eyes to reality a bit more, I feel.

It's Kestern and Asha's actions I don't buy.

I like that they agreed with the dwarves. The dwarves are even right. We should eradicate the kobolds. Kaalib is a remarkable exception. Kobolds are monsters! That's just a fact in this world. But... We are an exception too. We're good. We're heroes. We don't do the smart thing, we do the right thing. And so we're in conflict because of it - good. That's part of being good-aligned.

But I don't understand Kestern and Asha riding off into the north without a parting word, leaving the rest of the Council unsure of their intentions, for all appearances quitting in protest after a few sentences of discussion. Darrick is new. Him doing that doesn't surprise me. But when did Kestern and Asha suddenly decide to abandon ship with the new guy? Did they become his close buddies at some point offscreen?

Their actions bewilder me.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

"Kaalib, I don't know the ways of your people, but I worry about the outcome of such a duel. Even if victorious, what would that mean for you? Would you have to abandon Fairhaven? Would the Sootscales truly follow a chief who spent most of his time away in a castle, managing balance sheets?" Naralesh asked Kaalib as they rode. "I'll admit, it would be a powerful aid to the viscounty to have a true ally of your tribe, but I hope you have truly thought this through. And how long until another kobold decides to depose you in the same manner?"


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Agree with Naralesh about the dwarves - they're fully, unmistakeably dwarves - with one (slight) caveat: there's a fresh, never-tapped, GOLD MINE waiting to be claimed; and we want them to mine it. Why is the very first thing they do when they arrive to pick a fight with some kobolds over a silver mine? I get they hate kobolds with an unreasonable passion, no problem - but having just arrived, wouldn't they go for the gold mine, work with us, put down roots; and THEN, once they've got a feel for the place, approach us about taking down the Sootscale tribe? Rushing straight off to a fight seems hasty, even rash - not qualities I associate with dwarves at all (well, sober ones, anyway).

Agree completely on the advisors, I'm baffled. In addition, I think Talia's suggestions of murder - while ruthless, and more in keeping with a Neutral character like Vosil than a Good character like Talia - were actually far less crazy than the idea that we (generally) Good-aligned folk would betray one of our own for monetary gain (even typing that idea out just looks wrong). If I had to choose between throwing Kaalib to the worgs and killing a few dwarves I've never met and who I don't owe anything, well then, DIE LAWN ORNAMENTS! (nothing personal, Magna)


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I got the impression that they were on their way down, planned to mine the gold, and sent some scouts out to see if their intel on the silver mine was accurate, perhaps hoping to impress the rulers of Fairhaven with a resource they had missed.

I don't think they saw it as "picking a fight," just a scouting mission and they naturally assumed we'd want the kobolds destroyed too.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Maybe - but I got the sense that a confrontation with the kobolds was imminent. All that talk of "you have what you hold" and "but the kobolds aren't subjects - YET" made me feel they were practically lacing up their war boots. I definitely got the sense of a time bomb ticking - I thought that was OGGM's intention.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:

My impression was that the dwarves wanted to make the kobolds priority #1. That puts Talia in a tough place. As stated above, she simply can't betray the kobolds without just cause, and she can't use the dwarves as an excuse to do so. In fact, the dwarves are very much the aggressors here - the kobolds have stuck to their own and held their end of the deal, as far as we're aware.

Regarding Talia's suggestion of murder, there's more to it that I didn't properly convey in the post. First and foremost, Talia's not suggesting we out and out murder the dwarves. What she was - poorly - saying, was that the dwarves are threatening to take what we view as ours (even if we don't control it) so there's a potential fight on the horizon. "You have what you hold" is a clear statement to her - the Brighthammers are saying, in effect, you don't control the mine, perhaps we just take it for ourselves? She's willing to let the dwarves make the first move on the mine, and then if no compromise can be found, she wants to chop the head off the snake, and offer terms to the body.

She doesn't want to 'genocide' the lot of them nor does she want to go to war, and she's definitely not going to make a move on the dwarves without provocation.

However, coming into her kitchen and threatening the her with taking the mine is simply not something she can let go, either - if the dwarves take the mine and she does nothing, it would be a horrific show of weakness and invite other groups to do the same. She has to work a balancing act here - part bluster ("our" mine), part hammer (cutting the head off the snake) to prevent this type of occurrence becoming the norm. We're a small, weak country, and a hundred dwarves is a significant threat. So it is dirty and a bit ruthless, but if the dwarves want to play by the rules of the River Kingdoms, she'll play along. It is the type of realpoltik that will definitely push her into the N end of the alignment spectrum, but in her mind it has to be done to avoid a worse fate down the line for the people of Fairhaven.

TL;DR: Talia is not advocating for genocide, but we're going to have to get our hands dirty if the dwarves go for the mine. Other interested groups cannot be allowed to see Fairhaven as ripe for the picking.

EDIT: Regarding the NPCs, I don't really have an issue with how any of them have acted. None of us players have the full picture, and it is OK that we don't. People act unpredictably all the time in real life, and usually that behavior is totally predictable if we are able to see things from another's viewpoint. We may or may not get that clarity, and I'm OK with that.


Very long and involved post coming - I've been typing it and you guys are discussing - hang on! Hopefully it will help.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I'm sure OGGM's post will put this to rest, but I didn't see it like that. The dwarves probably don't even have the weapons and equipment to take on the kobolds by themselves, and they have to know that trying to claim the gold mine without soldiers to back them up is suicide and doomed to fail.

"You have what you hold," was a direct response to Talia saying "we claim the entire Greenbelt as our borders" which we don't control. The entire Greenbelt isn't ours - yet.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Naralesh wrote:
"You have what you hold," was a direct response to Talia saying "we claim the entire Greenbelt as our borders" which we don't control. The entire Greenbelt isn't ours - yet.

Oh, I agree with you that the dwarves were definitely saying that. But, look at that interaction from the viewpoint of a Brevic noble that is used to seeing innuendo all around her. Her whole life has been surrounded by messages hidden within simple phrasing. The dwarves were definitely saying that the mine isn't ours, and they may have been saying more. If Talia knew that they were saying more, Talia wouldn't wait for them to make the first move.

She knows - and hopes - that she could be reading too much into it, and if she is, that's great. Then no lives are lost, no relationships broken beyond repair. But she is planning for the eventuality that she's right. Hence talk of taking out the Brighthammer brothers and militias. So her talk is worst-case scenario planning. Thus, letting the dwarves prove - just like the kobolds - that they are a threat is an essential part of the planning - otherwise, she's just a despot.

I, as a player, failed to convey this, and am hoping it is making more sense now?


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Just for clarification: the "genocidal" comment was mine - I was accusing the dwarves of being genocidal for wanting to wipe out the kobolds. I stand by that accusation, FWIW.

Agree entirely with Talia, BTW: the provocation from the dwarves wasn't something we could let stand, or who else would come next, seeing us as soft targets?


Why is this conversation ooc? This has all the markings of the Council talking late into the night. Just change to In-character, and bam!

Long post is up. One thing: I do want to move forward, let's not let this take over the game. You guys go forth and RP your kingdom!


Naralesh wrote:
I'm sure OGGM's post will put this to rest, but I didn't see it like that. The dwarves probably don't even have the weapons and equipment to take on the kobolds by themselves, and they have to know that trying to claim the gold mine without soldiers to back them up is suicide and doomed to fail.

But no one bothered to check, or ask, or find out who they are...

Quote:
"You have what you hold," was a direct response to Talia saying "we claim the entire Greenbelt as our borders" which we don't control. The entire Greenbelt isn't ours - yet.

A thousand times, YES! Now, in character!


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Dregan Hirscherz wrote:
Dregan will come riding up quickly to the castle he is dressed in dirty overalls. Reigning in his horse he recovers his voice before asking "Is everyone alright? I heard there was a fight. Anything I can do?"

"Indeed, Master Hirscherz, we need your council. And later, I have a job for you. Please join us in our meeting room."

Vosil Comarenza wrote:
"My advice? Find new councillors."

Talia laughs, a little bit of pleasure on this dark day. "Would that it were that easy, Vosil. Kesten and Asha have proven themselves friends and confidants. They should be allowed an explanation for their behavior, but we'll need to catch up to them first - which I intend to do after this meeting."

"As for Darrick, I'm inclined to agree with you. However, a powerful noble family in Brevoy is not an enemy that we need right now. Best to keep him close - and in Concord, if we can bring them back."

"But we have other problems to discuss as well."

Looking around the room to the assembled group of lords and ladies, Talia continues.

"We have three problems, as I see it. One is our absconded advisors. After the meeting, I'd like to leave with Dregan to track them down and find out why they have left, and bring them back home, if possible. If not, at least we can wish them well in the future, and hopefully avoid any ill will."

"Two, the Brighthammers. I fear they mean to take the gold mine for themselves. My thinking is that we form a militia - it is one of the three duties our citizens have, after all - and work immediately to secure the lands around the mine. A show of force is the proper response here, I feel. If the dwarves mean to take the mine, let's show them that we can take it from them. A hundred or so miners should buckle easily enough under the pressure of our armed citizenry."

"Three, the Sootscales. Darrick is correct when he feels that they will continue to be a problem. We need to work on making them productive allies. My thinking is that this is two-fold. One, they must start working the silver vein. Kaalib, your people do have some facility for mining, correct? If they can be brought around to this, silver ore flowing to our craftsmen will only help engender good will for the Sootscales among our people."

"We also need to - for lack of a better word - civilize them. My apologies, Kaalib. Our treasurer took well to the teachings of Abadar. Perhaps the rest of the Sootscales would as well? I suspect that with a large enough donation, which I will happily contribute to the church in Restov, a priest or two could be convinced to live among the Sootscales for a time, and enlighten Kaalib's people to Abadar's civilizing ways."

"Thoughts?"


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HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Edit: Ninja'd by Talia.

Let's assume that much of this has been said already in-character - our adventurers making the same kind of realizations we have made as players, and transition that into roleplay. In fact, my last line works perfectly in character.

"...Gaerd's invocation of the first Freedom was a direct response to Talia saying "we claim the entire Greenbelt as our borders" which, for all our grand plans, we don't control. The entire Greenbelt isn't ours - yet, and the people of the River Kingdoms - ours included, aren't going to accept that until we build roads, expand the borders we can afford to patrol, and prove we can hold - and protect, what we claim."

Naralesh looks around the table. "I think we can all agree we learned much about the challenges of rulership today. We're not just a band of adventurers and explorers anymore - there's a whole new set of rules we have to play by." He sighs, and looks to Kaalib. "Even if it doesn't come to violence, we need to be ready for it. Is raising a militia financially viable for us now? And how quickly can we expand our borders to encompass the gold mine? We might have liked to wait, but the Brighthammers have forced our hand."


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

To Talia's post:

"All excellent goals. I think the Sootscales are the lowest priority at the moment. They're not a present threat to us and we have more time to handle that thorny issue later. The silver mine's not going anywhere. The gold mine might, if we're not careful."


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HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Vosil shuffles paper; he's good at finding things out. "We can claim the gold mine imminently, as it is on our borders already. But I do NOT advise a show of force against the dwarves. A show of respect, perhaps. Their people are fine miners, whatever their other flaws. If they work it for us, and pay taxes, under our protection, I would think that everyone wins."

Next turn, in fact: pay 1 BP and the hex is ours!

"Magna: what do you know of these brothers and their clan? What brings them to the Stolen Lands? Who are they and what are they likely to want?"

Knowledge local re dwarf brothers: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (7) + 9 = 16


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YES! You want to know where I was going? This. This. THIS! Crisis arises, leaders say: 'Hey let's talk. Everyone (not in the Council) sit down and shut up (sorta) until we figure it out.' Excellent! Most astonishing wonderful! (my inner hobbit) You're going to need this in the future. I've read the books, trust me.

Silver Crusade

HP: 212/212. 0/16 | AC:30 | F:+23+ R:+17 W+20 | Itm/Med/Perc/Surv +18, Acr/Lore +15, Ath +23 | +23, 3d12+7+8 | Active Conditions:

OOGM - I realise this probably got missed earlier. Would Edric run into the councillors on his way back from the dwarves or not?


Edric 'Godly' wrote:
OOGM - I realise this probably got missed earlier. Would Edric run into the councillors on his way back from the dwarves or not?

Nope. I did state in my long post that they did not take the same route.


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Sorcerer (Tattooed Draconic) 4 | HP 20/20 | AC 14 (18 w MA); T 13; Ff 12(16) | CMD 14 | Fort +2; Ref +3; Will +4 | Init +2 | Perception +11

Kaalib straightened his papers in front of him and cleared his throat with a puff of smoke. "The issue with getting an army right now isn't gold, we have enough cash flow, it's the food. We need to allocate more space for farms, and possibly a few fisheries to be able to feed the army. We could get by if we claimed the mine as long as we continued to survey more land for farms in the coming months.

Even with the castle under construction, we have enough space therin to house two hundred troops. We don't have the training facilities to make anything besides a basic militia, but the numbers alone should dissuade small groups from trying to take advantage of our lands. If we ever wanted to deploy them, it would cost..." He shuffled his papers, "...at least four fold, and it would be good to have a granary for extra stores in case we need to protect our assets away from town."

He took off the spectacles that he somehow balanced on his snout and continued. "As far as the Kobolds go, they can do the job. If we want to encourage them to be more civilized, I actually recommend using some of the silver profits to build them actual housing. We can also invite the chief to Concord and let him see what we're able to build here, after we have our army of course, and perhaps it will encourage him to be more cooperative if he believes he can eventually get some of the same kind of living conditions. The thing that convinced me was spending time in Restov, and actually seeing how the whole system works."


Where are you and what are you doing? I have Talia, Naralesh, Vosil, and Kaalib in the Council chamber talking. What are the rest of you doing? Be specific as to location and actions. For example: 'In the Council chamber talking to the Council'.

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