OGGM's Kingdom Builder

Game Master Jeff Przybylo

This is the Kingdom Builder thread for OGGM's Kingmaker Campaign.

Kingdom Stuff:


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So the gameplay thread has become a sort of mashup of kingdom building and kingdom RP. The dwarves event is supposed to challenge you with the various elements you will face as rulers: the River Freedoms - if you don't know them, learn them! 2) the fact that your word is not law with everyone - yet. You will have to prove yourselves. 3) There are people around you that will be eyeing what you have. Get used to it. The next three books deal in this theme. 4) Your NPC council members won't always 'fall in line'. They have goals and ideas too.

Promise I won't take this too far.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:

Great stuff, OGGM!

I figured with a +11 mod in knowledge local, Talia would be familiar with the River Freedoms, even if she's not a fan of them. And she's not - she'd much prefer to live in a realm that doesn't embrace 'you have what you hold' as its foremost tenant.

As for taking it too far, this is the aspect of Kingmaker that makes it so much more interesting in my opinion than other Paizo APs. I hope you will have regular interactions with us via the NPC advisors - it is a lot of fun.


I was really counting on someone knowing the River Freedoms - turns out I was right! That's a very interesting part of AP for sure.


To answer Vosil: 'Courts are for Kings' applies to the laws made by the individual kingdoms and where they apply. If you you travel to another kingdom, you are bound by their laws, diplomatic immunity is not heard of.

You could make a law that you do not follow the River Freedoms, but I don't see what good it would do. Would you pick them all? Or just some? Or just one? Which one? 'you have what you hold?' All that would do is tell your neighbors that you believe you have sovereignty in places you don't control. The reality is that if you don't control it, well then they you don't control it. Not a lot you could do if someone decided to take it from you.

Take the Brighthammers, for example: if they decide they're going to wipe out the kobolds, there's nothing you can do about it. That's the reality right now. You don't have the power or authority to stop them. This is why your (very wise, IMHO) advisors are giving you an out.

Something else: people moving to the River Kingdoms are generally aware of the Freedoms. It's one of the benefits. If you flout them, what is the effect on Stability and Unrest? Only one way to find out.

Ah politics, should be interesting...


Hope no one dies during exploration, the dwarf issue is months after the wolf fight!


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Old Guy GM wrote:
You don't have the power or authority to stop them. This is why your (very wise, IMHO) advisors are giving you an out.

Unfortunately, Talia is more concerned with doing right (ethical) by her friends than doing the right (wise) thing.


There was some talk about the dwarves in the other Discussion Tab, going to reply here:

Throughout this AP I'm going to try - try mind you - to present you with some choices that make you develop who and what you are as a kingdom. WITHOUT delving into everyone's personal politics. I don't want this to derail into an argument every time.

That said, the first 'crisis' in Fairhaven, and everything went 'boom'! Talia and Edric off chasing the dwarves, Kaalib making a beeline for the kobolds, the NPC councilors upset and off on their own, everyone else left behind scratching their heads on what to do. May I make a suggestion? You are members of a government now, and really need to present a unified front where possible. Everyone scattered without everyone knowing what the official policy was going to be. What is the Grand Diplomat going to accomplish alone? Is he going to make policy without the consent of the Council? The Viscountess is off into the wilderness chasing miners, quite beneath her station. The Treasurer has run off, also without guidance.

I would think an emergency Council meeting would have been in order first. AT MOST, Orsheval could have been sent (he was) to warn the kobolds that the dwarves may be up to something ALTHOUGH THERE WAS NO INDICATION OF THAT. They came to mine gold for now. All I did was have the NPC councilors suggest an out for the situation.

Fun stuff, eh?


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Aaaaaaannnndddd...I wrote that before I read Naralesh's post!

The Voice of Reason!!! Great post!


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Old Guy GM wrote:
Fun stuff, eh?

Very much so! Talia's coming back - she just wants to personally let Kaalib know that she'll honor their truce. Though with Naralesh's post, I may do a little retconning, if that is OK.

As for what the dwarves are doing, "you have what you hold". It may merely have been an observation, but Talia has taken it that it is an implicit threat, and I've established that she can be rash :) From her point of view, if you're going to say something like that to a noble, there's always meaning lurking under the surface.


Talia Khavortorov wrote:
Old Guy GM wrote:
Fun stuff, eh?

Very much so! Talia's coming back - she just wants to personally let Kaalib know that she'll honor their truce. Though with Naralesh's post, I may do a little retconning, if that is OK.

As for what the dwarves are doing, "you have what you hold". It may merely have been an observation, but Talia has taken it that it is an implicit threat, and I've established that she can be rash :) From her point of view, if you're going to say something like that to a noble, there's always meaning lurking under the surface.

And you'd be 100% correct. That's the way it is in River Kingdoms. But remember they didn't come here to Concord with that attitude. Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. The stuff of Kings and Councillors. As far as I see it, my 'broken' NPCs (I saw that Vosil ;) ) have done what they should do, and you guys went OFF. Great fun, but you have work to do to get them back. Dwarves AND councilors. Because neither is going away any time soon.

PS: this is exactly why I have a separate thread for this. Two games in one!


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Oh hey, a discussion thread! This wasn't here last time I checked. Sorry for dumping so many OOC posts into gameplay now...

I am freaking out with emotions over this game right now. I am super stressed out about it - in a good way. I deeply care about resolving this issue because Naralesh does.

This situation is believable. None of us are experienced governors, and we utterly failed at our first crisis. We'll establish procedures for how to handle this stuff in the future at the upcoming council meeting.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Naralesh wrote:

Also:

Are the dwarves leaving? Have we lost the chance to have them work the mines? How are they represented in the Kingdom Builder rules?

Have our NPCs really quit? It seems like they, in unison, agreed to resign together, without saying any words regarding this. Do Asha and Kestern really know and agree with Darrick that closely?

I am super confused by this situation, and it seems to be getting more chaotic.

I don't think we know what the dwarves are doing. Talia is assuming that they either intend to 1) take the gold mine, or worse 2) kill their allies and take the silver mine, based upon the veiled threat that was made. As such, she'll want to raise a militia to make sure that doesn't happen, despite it not being monetarily possible to do so at this time.

Re: Folks running off - I'm personally not too concerned with it. Edric did leave a note (though Talia's going to ask him to send some notification in the future); Kaalib is totally justified in running off (I mean, if someone casually mentioned letting my family/friends get killed, I probably would too). Asha/Kesten/Darrick were insulted and are doing something, which we may or may not figure out depending on our actions. Perhaps they quit, perhaps they don't - but we've got time to figure out how to approach them.

Privy it up, and we'll figure it out.


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HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Your posts in this thread have addressed some of my concerns from the other thread, OGGM. Lets me get my head around this a bit better.

This is the most difficult thing any of my characters has ever had to deal with in an RPG, so that's why you're seeing this half-panicked/half-excited reaction from me. Most GMs aren't capable of weaving a difficult story like this, and it's a new experience to have one who absolutely can.

So thank you!


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Ooops, there's a discussion thread?! My bad. Sorry, I had absolutely no idea this existed until just now! Not sure why the (x new) thing didn't show up to highlight its existence.

I'll read up now and see where we're at.

EDIT: Ha, glad I'm not alone in ignorance, Naralesh!

EDIT II - Sorry, but this:

Old Guy GM wrote:
Take the Brighthammers, for example: if they decide they're going to wipe out the kobolds, there's nothing you can do about it. That's the reality right now. You don't have the power or authority to stop them. This is why your (very wise, IMHO) advisors are giving you an out.

is rubbish - what "out"?!

As Naralesh put it so brilliantly (I wish, I WISH I had that ability with words):

"What option do we have other than what we did? Do you want us to kill the kobolds, betraying Kaalib, a fellow PC, and just settle for "we want the silver so let's take it?" Our characters and our kingdom are good-aligned - were we supposed to abandon all of that the moment some outsiders show up asking for silver?

I naturally assumed we weren't even supposed to consider that option."

That was my assumption too - why in all of Asmodeus' Hells would we agree with the 'very wise advisors?' Because they're NPCs and "the Voice of the DM?" On that basis, we say to Kaalib that he and his people (and his player!) are surplus to requirements?!

Sorry if I'm getting worked up about this, I know it's just a game, but (to quote Naralesh, again) "This is the most difficult thing any of my characters has ever had to deal with in an RPG, so that's why you're seeing this half-panicked/half-excited reaction from me."

(Nara: sorry, I can't afford to pay royalties for quoting you; can you be public domain please? Otherwise I'm looking at bankruptcy...)


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HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)
Vosil Comarenza wrote:
(Nara: sorry, I can't afford to pay royalties for quoting you; can you be public domain please? Otherwise I'm looking at bankruptcy...)

You can owe me a favor. Save Naralesh's life someday in the gameplay thread and we're even. :)


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HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Heh - if my Tier 5 Fighter saves your Tier 1 God-wizard, we're definitely even; suspect it will more usually be t'other way round :)


I opened up this Tab for just this reason - to discuss these issues.

Now some very bad words have come up: 'player vs. GM' and (para) 'my character is not stupid', etc. If this is ceasing to be fun for people, then we can stop immediately. But let me clarify:

It's all about choices. I am presenting you with choices, and letting you react and choose. Then I am playing as realistically as I can off of your choices. So let's review and try to clarify for each case:

IMPORTANT NOTE: I'm not being snarky when I say 'choice made'. I mean that was a plot point where something happened in the story. NONE of these choices is irreversible!!!

The Brighthammers.
The Gold Mine
They came at Magna's behest. I can't make it any more clear that YOU DON'T HOLD the gold mine per the River Freedoms. They don't care that you think you hold the Greenbelt. They don't care what your intentions are. 'You have what you hold' in the River Kingdoms. They agreed to follow the laws within the borders of Fairhaven - which as of now do not include the gold mine. Perhaps you jumped the gun on calling them down this early. Choice made.

The kobolds
Not once did they say they were going to kill the kobolds. Not once. I just reviewed it, and I was very careful in what I put down. It was the NPCs who suggested that, and only to you all. (More on that later.) They did express incredulity that you would let kobolds hold the silver mine, but that's it. You as a group went straight down that path based on what your NPCs said. Choice made.

Where they are going.
They headed north towards the gold mine, not northeast toward the silver mine. Choice still to be made.

The situation
All is not lost with them. They are strongly puzzled by your acceptance of the kobolds. But they are going fend for themselves. It will take some diplomacy to get them to do what you want. As yet, no one has made any suggestions for Skill checks to determine who they are, but I will tell you this: Talia's assumption they are 'just miners' could be a grievous miscalculation. Choice still to be made.

Darrick, Asha, Kesten.
The kobolds
This should not be such a surprise to you. They understand perfectly well your relationship with Kaalib. They also are acting as Brevic nobility would: Machiavellian politics. A working silver mine under your control is better than one not working. You have a treaty with the koblds, Talia will not break it. The arrival of the dwarves gives Fairhaven a chance to eradicate the kobolds and open the mine in a swift stroke. Talia can wipe her hands of it as she can't control a dwarf/kobold war out side her borders. That is their thinking, you decided to make clear that wasn't an option. Choice made. (But see below)

Vosil's reply
Garess, Medvyed, Lebeda = ex Brevic nobility, but nobility nonetheless. Even Talia maintains some semblance of her family heritage. Comarenza = not so much. And you have to admit, that response was over the top. Vosil played in character, and I responded. Were they wholly and fully Brevic in their response, Vosil would be receiving a visit from a swordlord champion of the Lebeda's very soon, one he probably would not survive. Why did they go together? For the very reason you have brought up, but did not realize. They are outsiders, and they know it, or at least they feel like it. Better to leave and 'cool off' then have an incident. Vosil played in his character, choice made.

Where they are going
Unknown, north, but not near the dwarves. They are smart enough to know they don't want to be seen as collaborating if something happens. Choice still to be made.

The situation.
Again, all is not lost. Diplomacy is the order of the day. You will need them. I'm not going to keep throwing NPCs at you to fill leader slots. Choice still to be made.

Kaalib
The situation.
Oterisk (Kaalib) and I had this conversation back when he started. He is fully aware of the risks to the tribe of kobolds, back from Magna's firm conviction they should be wiped out. He chose to play the kobold under those circumstances, choice made.

The game.
NOW. I want this to be fun. That said, not everything will go your way. Just as the dice don't go your way in combat, the NPCs I present won't just fall in line and agree with everything you say. They have opinions, and motivations, that may or may not be what you want. That's what I believe a good Kingmaker game should be. PLEASE TELL ME IF I AM WRONG! Now you have a chance to use all of those skills no one takes - diplomacy, sense motive, knowledges, bluff, etc etc.

I hope this helps.

If I can make a suggestion: Find out what you don't know in game: Where have the dwarves gone and what are they doing? Where are Darrick, Kesten, Asha and what are their intentions? What will the kobolds do with the mine? Are they holding to their part of the treaty? Kobolds are lawful and evil, they also understand the River Freedoms, be warned. Kaalib has to decide what he is going to be. If he takes over the tribe and they become a vassal state, that changes his role within the kingdom, and I am playing that one by RAW.

Not looking for sympathy, but this isn't easy. To answer a Vosil question: you NEVER have to agree with my NPCs, you NEVER have to do what they say just because I created them. But they WILL act/react in accordance with their perceptions of your actions. Roleplay it! Throw in some dice for relevant skills, let's have fun with them. I could very easily make it all go smoothly, but that seems like a cop-out in this AP.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Ha. Knew Darrick didn't have the balls to challenge me in person.

More serious post to follow. You've said a lot that deserves proper thought and I shall endeavour to do so. But, I can't immediately see the "out" you were saying that you'd given us.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

For the record, I fully expect Kaalib to eventually rule the Sootscales as a vassal state. His player can still manage our books in the economic phase while the kobold governs elsewhere.

I can't imagine another believable way to incorporate the kobolds into our nation.

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it though.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Ok.

Firstly, thanks for the full explanation - and the time you put into running this game, OGGM. It is (honestly!) appreciated.

Second, I will leave it to those far better with words than I to examine all the issues you raised. I just want to focus on one: the fun.

THE FUN

What has reduced the fun?

I do not claim to speak for the others here; for ME, it was less fun when it became clear that the "way out" you had designed required my character to act utterly contrary to his own nature.

It was less fun when the dwarves refused to talk (difficult to do Diplomacy when someone says "I'm done listening" the way one of them did to Magna); or even to say "it's clear we disagree, but we're interested in [common ground xyz] and we're here to talk about that."

It was less fun when it became clear that nothing - NOTHING - we said was going to sway our advisors: not pleas to their better nature, and not a cold presentation of the actual facts. I certainly don't expect e.g. Asha to be persuaded by the same things that might work on Darrick, but if there'd been even the slightest indication that something we'd said could be persuasive for even one of them, Vosil's speech would have looked VERY different. The NPCs are critical to our success, so when all three of them say "no matter what you say, this is our view and we're sticking to it for all time" it makes it less fun and more...railroad-y: we have to keep them on board, or the game falls apart (especially given your remark/threat about not giving us any others).

(Trust me, I run the spreadsheet: I KNOW how much we need them. But it's not fun when they're un-persuadable. That makes them the rulers.)

What would help increase fun?

Again, I'm not speaking for the others, but I'm new to this sort of sandboxy game.

To start us out, how about options? Not exhaustive by any means, but some guidance while we're getting used to this whole thing.

E.g "your advisors seem focussed on getting the silver mine open by whatever means; but they're open as to how."

Thus, we can keep arguing that the mine doesn't need to be worked (unlikely to succeed, tension, but choice made); or we can suggest getting the kobolds to work it; or we can go with the dwarven genocide idea. But we're not then confined to the single "out" that we have to go with to keep our advisors happy.

EDIT: Heck, put the information in a spoiler, e.g. "Sense Motive DC 15" - that's at least a prompt for us to remember to roll for it!

Basically, helping us work out what our choices ARE before we are faced with the "choice made" statement. Saying "choice made" when I wasn't even aware of what choices were available, or that I was making one, is profoundly un-fun (again, just speaking for me).

I wouldn't expect this to last forever, but as an attention-deficit type, it would increase my fun greatly for now.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I still am no closer to understanding the 3 NPCs' actions. Every single action I've seen an NPC take in one of OGGM's posts has seemed very believable and realistic - except this one. What the hell are they doing?

At this point I trust that OGGM will at some point reveal to us a hidden motive the three share that none of us were aware of, or some secret that we haven't uncovered yet, that explains why these three have formed a coalition - which is what it seems like they have done. Wordlessly leaving the room, leaving the city on horseback, immediately after a disagreement with the leader? That reeks of a prior arrangement.

The fact that I know for certain that OGGM plays his NPCs realistically and well is why I am so utterly lost. They seem like they're enchanted or something - it's that out-of-character for them.

I'm sure there IS a rational explanation for this. But I want to communicate how it seems, so you know why I am confused.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Old Guy GM wrote:

NOW. I want this to be fun. That said, not everything will go your way. Just as the dice don't go your way in combat, the NPCs I present won't just fall in line and agree with everything you say. They have opinions, and motivations, that may or may not be what you want. That's what I believe a good Kingmaker game should be. PLEASE TELL ME IF I AM WRONG! Now you have a chance to use all of those skills no one takes - diplomacy, sense motive, knowledges, bluff, etc etc.

I hope this helps.

If I can make a suggestion: Find out what you don't know in game: Where have the dwarves gone and what are they doing? Where are Darrick, Kesten, Asha and what are their intentions? What will the kobolds do with the mine? Are they holding to their part of the treaty? Kobolds are lawful and evil, they also understand the River Freedoms, be warned. Kaalib has to decide what he is going to be. If he takes over the tribe and they become a vassal state, that changes his role within the kingdom, and I am playing that one by RAW.

Not looking for sympathy, but this isn't easy. To answer a Vosil question: you NEVER have to agree with my NPCs, you NEVER have to do what they say just because I created them. But they WILL act/react in accordance with their perceptions of your actions. Roleplay it! Throw in some dice for relevant skills, let's have fun with them. I could very easily make it all go smoothly, but that seems like a cop-out in this AP.

Thanks OGGM, this is good advice for us.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I concur. I have absolute confidence you're going to a good place with all this. But I am having difficulty roleplaying how to react to the NPCs because I don't understand the situation.


Vosil, let me state for the record: there were always options.

The 'out' was this: let the dwarves take the silver mine from the kobolds. Evil creatures dead, dwarves to blame, silver mine working and Fairhaven not responsible because it happened outside your borders. The 'out' is that you get the mine and Talia doesn't break her word! Short, bearded scapegoats! They presented it, and then attempted to counter your reasons. That's what they are allowed to do as members of the Council. Then you insulted Darrick. This is the tipping point, and I keep coming back to it. Was that necessary? For Vosil as a character, maybe, but now you all have work to do.

For Naralesh, there's no secret. They are nobles, Vosil is not. If Talia dresses them down, it's a whole different thing. They have a closed club, and their new club just insulted them. 'Them' because of their common history, one Talia shares btw.

Options? How about a vote? OR How about Talia saying 'I appreciate your arguments but my word is final?' Naralesh has been the only voice of reason, everyone else is out doing their own thing.

All the dwarves did was call you guys nuts and leave. That's it.

It's ok to play in character, but in Kingmaker, there will be consequences. Unless you are going to rule by an iron fist, you're going to have swallow some pride sometimes and not be 'in character'. That's how democratic-like governments like you are trying to create operate. Compromise. Diplomacy. Painful as it is, sometimes you're going to have to say please. The time will come when your word will be enough, and your power can back it up, but it isn't now.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Winston Churchill

Kaalib will NOT play both roles. The RAW is very clear on that. Pg 203 in UC: there's a Viceroy, and a Treasurer. It follows Vassalage edicts on pg 233. We will be following this.


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Naralesh wrote:
I concur. I have absolute confidence you're going to a good place with all this. But I am having difficulty roleplaying how to react to the NPCs because I don't understand the situation.

Say your sorry (Vosil), kiss their ass (Talia), and get them back to work. Can't be plainer.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I suppose neither Naralesh nor I fully understands nobles yet. Talia, this is your stage.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

By the way, I feel that I would be remiss if I avoided mentioning that I totally like Darrick's suggestion. The kobolds might actually need to be exterminated, if they won't ally with us. Naralesh knows that too, in the back of his mind.

But it's too early for that now, for an idealistic group like ours, unaccustomed to the darker side of rulership. The kobolds have not demonstrated that they're enemies - and until they do, we're not going to betray them, even indirectly. If Kaalib takes them over, he can rule them as a vassal state. If he fails, or they rebel against him, we will be forced to do something nobody wants.

The decision to make that call, some day down the line (if the kobolds force our hand), will be all the more emotional and dramatic for all the effort we put into trying to avoid it.


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Naralesh wrote:
I suppose neither Naralesh nor I fully understands nobles yet. Talia, this is your stage.

Indeed, nobility is a very odd thing. Think of an ultra-exclusive club, that you have no way joining unless by birth. You and your club are better than everyone, save those in the club with a better lineage. But you ALL are better than everyone else. And you fight tooth and nail to protect that. AND that's ingrained from birth.

Even your NPCs will have a hard time giving that up. They need a new club - and that's you all.


Naralesh wrote:
By the way, I feel that I would be remiss if I avoided mentioning that I totally like Darrick's suggestion. The kobolds might actually need to be exterminated, if they won't ally with us. Naralesh knows that too, in the back of his mind.

Yes, and they recognized what you did not: the time for less pain was now, when it was outside your jurisdiction (by the Freedoms, not your treaty). In their mind, if the kobold (Kaalib) was truly wanting to be different from his people, he would see the wisdom of that decision. Remember: ultra-exclusive club. (see above) Kobolds ain't in it. Not saying the 3 are right, just saying what they're saying.

And when you find them, if you ask, this what you'll get for an explanation.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Good. I think we agree. If we were "playing to win," we'd have done that by now. The fact that we're choosing the harder path is part of why I am so utterly fascinated with this game. When I GM'd this adventure path (we stopped slightly before the Stag Lord), my players slaughtered every kobold in a half hour and burned the mites' tree down after slaughtering those too. There was never a single thought that the creatures' lives might be spared.

I love that our group is different.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary
Old Guy GM wrote:

Vosil, let me state for the record: there were always options.

The 'out' was this: let the dwarves take the silver mine from the kobolds. Evil creatures dead, dwarves to blame, silver mine working and Fairhaven not responsible because it happened outside your borders. The 'out' is that you get the mine and Talia doesn't break her word! Short, bearded scapegoats!

BUT THAT'S CRAP!

(capitals for emphasis)

WE would know we were responsible. Also, that is NOT "options" plural: that is "option" - railroad.

This comes back to what I said earlier:

Quote:
it was less fun when it became clear that the "way out" you had designed required my character to act utterly contrary to his own nature.

There is no way that most of us would accept throwing Kaalib to the worgs, while retaining what MAKES us, us.

Sorry. If you're sticking with that as a reasonable out, you and I have a fundamentally different idea of what constitutes 'reasonable'


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

Vosil, I think OGGM presented it to us not as what he expected us to do, but because he wanted us to make the choice. It's not a railroad - it's a fork in the road. We already took the other option.

Just because he could have predicted our response, doesn't mean he shouldn't have presented us with the choice.

Honestly, I think the only reason they left was Vosil's outburst. Which makes them petty and rash - but as OGGM mentioned - nobles are raised to be elitist pricks.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

I appreciate the post, Nara, but actually that makes it worse: not only are there no 'options,' plural, there's 'option - oh, and I already know what option you're going to take so there!'

Gah. Alternating between "WTF - baffled" and "WTF - annoyance" is not how I want to play D&D. I get that for free in RL...


Status:
HP: 28/43; AC: 18/14/14; Saves: F +6, R +8, W +3; Init: +4 (+2 in the forest); Per: +11 (+2 more if in forests);

Dotting cause I'm not getting notices when posts come here.


Female Dwarf Paladin (Holy Tactician) 4 | HP 29/39 | AC 16 T 10 FF 16 CMD 17 (21 vs Trip and Bullrush) | F +8 R +4 W +7 | Init +0 | Perc +0 (Darkvision) | Status: Lookout

Just talking about Magna's point of view.
Maybe we can't claim the gold mine yet, but sure as hell she won't get anyone else to claim it. To let another group claim it is plain idiotic.
And I am not talking about Good-Evil or Law-Chaos here, but Friendly-Hostile.
If the dwarves are not friendly to the group (specially Magna), and are even hostile to them, then they are a THREAT to be removed. As soon as possible.
The moment they say "Not talking anymore" and turning their backs to Magna, they are considered hostile, and are the new "Stag Lord bandits" to be removed from the land.
So Magna's action is unchanged. She will non-lethally take them out, tie them up, and banish them from the Stolen Lands. Or die trying.
The next group of dwarves, or humans, or kobolds, that appear might as well learn to be more diplomatic or they will face the same fate.
Now... if the dwarves are a "feature" we are unable to remove, well, that was Magna's fault, and I ask, as a personal favor, to roll back Magna's calling them, and their arrival. And Magna will go out after her talk with Edric and Talia, and never come back. Have a nice game.
Just don't ask me to "accept" Magna will allow some HOSTILE group take over the gold mine without her try to do something about it.


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Status:
HP: 28/43; AC: 18/14/14; Saves: F +6, R +8, W +3; Init: +4 (+2 in the forest); Per: +11 (+2 more if in forests);

I've stayed out of this so for a few reasons. First I have a 5 week old child and this was a section that Dregan didn't have a active interest in. Additionally I didn't feel that my in put would help matters.

I am now writing because I am hoping that an outside voice might help. I know how easily this sort of game disagreements can get heated and it becomes hard to see the other persons perspective. Particularly in this medium (not face to face)

Both Vosil and OGGM have made some valid points. and I want to make a comments on a few of them in the hope that we can move towards a compromise.

I'm not sure that saying 'choice made' is the most useful. Yes some things are done, but the consequence shouldn't be determined yet. Someone can ride out and talk to the dwarves and correct some misunderstandings, particularly after heads have cooled etc.

We are playing a tabletop role playing game (if not at a table) and to me the beauty of tabletop rgps is that there are near infinite choices all the time. The adventure paths (and an unspoken agreement between us) try to funnels us in certain directions. I don't think anyone needs to label points where choices need to be made because that is every point (every post I have resisted the choice to declare war on Oleg but I could of (and everyone would have ignored me)).

Along the same line when players get involved in the role playing they are thinking about dice rolls, I think this is great, rolling dice can really disruptive a tense atmosphere and break a sense of disbelief. I think it is sensible for the GM to roll diplomacy or ask for a roll when they think it is required (otherwise you could make an argument that diplomacy roll should be with every post). For the same reason a player that wants to know motives can make their own sense motive rolls because the other option is the GM rolling for every post and... however I would suggest secret rolls by the GM to detect lying.

I have to go but I hope this will help rather than cause more problems.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Wow.

I really did go into a flat spin, didn't I?

I owe everyone an apology, but OGGM especially; as well as an explanation. I don't like sharing RL stuff on a public forum, so I'll just say that the "you didn't do [deliberately impossible task x] so now I have to punish you" scenario is horribly familiar to me.

I therefore - rightly or wrongly - perceived what was happening to be a re-living of that (in other words, "you didn't take the - impossible - out and now you face the consequences") and freaked out accordingly (hence the aforementioned flat spin).

I've now (mostly) regained my equilibrium, enough to see the need to apologise - profusely - for my tone and language, and for not letting it go and moving on.

OGGM: I'm sorry for any offence caused. Please though, without spoiling anything, could you let me know if this sort of scenario is a significant part of the AP? Because if it is, I'd rather resign now, with whatever dignity I still have, than when I'm weeping ragefully over a keyboard next time it happens.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

OK, it looks like we're starting to get into a discussion of Turn 5 actions (Lamashan); although we still need to resolve the event phase for Turn 4 [read: ensure - at the very least - we get the three advisors back].

Turn 5 (Lamashan) - PROPOSAL

Upkeep Phase: stability check TBC
Upkeep Phase: pay Consumption 0 BP
Edict Phase: Claim hex E3 (RESOURCE) -1 BP, +1 Consumption, +1 Control DC, +1 Economy
Edict Phase: Terrain improvements: Gold Mine in E3 -6 BP, +2 Economy, +2 bonus BP/turn
Edict Phase: Settlement: Propose that we save up for a Stockyard
Edict Phase: I propose moving Vosil's bonus from Economy back to Stability
Edict Phase: Taxation roll TBC
Event Phase: TBC Dun Dun DUNH!!!!

Economy 18
Loyalty 14
Stability 22
Unrest TBC
Consumption 0
Treasury 4 + Taxation roll result + 3 bonus BP
Control DC 26


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Also, OGGM: on the topic of resolving Turn 4, did my Knowledge roll get any useful information on the dwarf brothers, or their clan?


Vosil Comarenza wrote:
Also, OGGM: on the topic of resolving Turn 4, did my Knowledge roll get any useful information on the dwarf brothers, or their clan?

I believe there was a question for Magna included in that. so I was waiting for that. Will answer tomorrow if I don't here.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

I think we need to have a discussion about Magna's most recent post, folks.

It seems like Magna's player is not happy about what is going on here, and is talking about quitting the game. This needs resolving.

OGGM, can you comment on what she posted?

Is her understanding of this situation correct?


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary
Naralesh wrote:
I think we need to have a discussion about Magna's most recent post, folks.

Just so you know, I'm not ignoring your post, Nara (or Magna's either!), but I'm not really sure what to say.


The only thing I'm going to say about it is that Magna is making big assumptions and carrying this thing way too far. Way beyond my intent for this kingdom event. I've already stated many times that nothing is irreversible, or set in stone.

All that said, that is why you all have to sit down in Council, make decisions, and implement those decisions. The list of issues:

1) Get your missing councilors back. a)find out where they went. b)apologize to them and get them back.

2) The dwarves. a)find out where they went. b)find out what they are doing. c)negotiate as necessary.

To these ends, some information:

1) The councilors went north, but Edric did not see them on his way back, which would tell you they did not follow the dwarves. So no dwarves v. kobolds conspiracies here. Check Oleg's maybe?

2) The dwarves went north toward the gold mine, not the silver mine. You haven't claimed that hex, so they could legally set up and start mining and probably will. It will take a good month for them to even start to get going, so you have time to decide what to do and open negotiations with them. You hold all the cards save the military option. Vosil can recall that the Brighthammers are noted tunnel fighters. They and their clan are very famous for it. In addition, the Brighthammer clan is big - very big. And they aren't all here in the Stolen Lands. I will tell you that to launch your party and your militia vs a clan of dwarves who are acting within their legal rights is going to cost you dearly. Both in terms of in-game and meta-game. So don't do it.

What you do control is access to the surrounding area. If you claim the hex they have no way of getting supplies in and gold out, without your permission. A very powerful negotiating tool, I would say.


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HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Thanks OGGM for the information - can I just get a quick clarification: if we claim the gold hex and build a mine on it next turn (turn 5 - Lamashan) will we beat the dwarves to it? Or do they now have the head start?

Given you said it will take them at least a month, it seems there's the possibility we could beat them to it.


HP 48/48 | AC 16 (Touch 11, FF 14) CMD 13 | Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +5 | Init +5 Percep +4 SM +2 | Shift (15 ft, 8/8)

While it looks like we will be just fine if we claim that hex, the Brighthammers are absolutely out of line if they go and start mining a resource that they know we're about to claim. Legal? Sure. (As legal as you can be in a lawless no-man's land.) Honorable? Not even frikkin' close. They know our intent is to hire them to mine it - it's why we invited them.


You shouldn't even have to hire them. It's all part of the negotiations bit.

Vosil, you won't be able to build a mine this turn as long as they hold it. BUT that's my point - you won't need to.

You (will) own the hex, tell them they need to work with you, or you'll charge them so much for food and tariffs on their gold it won't be worth it. Then they will build it for you (just an RP thing, it will still cost the BP, notice how it still takes the month?).

I was hoping you guys would come up with that on your own after all that's happened. The funny thing is, Darrick would have suggested that in game. Let's get this back on track!

Also, I'm not going to move the action in the Council Chamber (at least not until the 3 come back) like I would the other part of the game, that's up to you guys.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:
Old Guy GM wrote:

You (will) own the hex, tell them they need to work with you, or you'll charge them so much for food and tariffs on their gold it won't be worth it. Then they will build it for you (just an RP thing, it will still cost the BP, notice how it still takes the month?).

I was hoping you guys would come up with that on your own after all that's happened. The funny thing is, Darrick would have suggested that in game. Let's get this back on track!

I was thinking along these lines, but you beat me to posting. I did think, however, that we'd have to claim every hex around the mine hex (I envisioned them for some reason having the whole hex). Glad that's not the case. It would have been time-consuming and expensive to encircle them like that.


HP 53/53 | AC 20 (22 w/C.E.) [T 15 FF 15] | CMB +7 | CMD 22 | Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +3 | Init +5 | Percep +0 | Stamina 7/7 | Active conditions: None Kingdom Spreadsheet | Turn Summary

Thanks OGGM, I really appreciate the "King(dom) Making for Dummies" hints.

We shall - hopefully - get better at doing this for ourselves as we get used to it.


Female Dwarf Paladin (Holy Tactician) 4 | HP 29/39 | AC 16 T 10 FF 16 CMD 17 (21 vs Trip and Bullrush) | F +8 R +4 W +7 | Init +0 | Perc +0 (Darkvision) | Status: Lookout

Hello.
Seems the dwarfs are here to stay.
That means Magna won't.
To the other players: Sorry to bring that mess up to you.
To the DM: Thanks for the game, was fun while it lasted. Please feel free to DMPC Magna, of take her out of the game altogether. I would appreciate if you mark her as "inactive" in the Campaign tab.


LN Female (Brevic) Human Skald 6 | HP: 44/44 | AC: 20 (22 w/shield) ( 13 Tch, 20 Ff) | CMB: +8 CMD: 20 | F:+8 R:+5 W:+7 | Init: +3 | Perc: +9; SM: 13 | Speed 30 ft | Spells: 1st 5/5 2nd 4/4 Spell Kenning: 1/1 | Performance 15/15 | Active conditions:

Cheers, Magna/Corsario. Best of luck to you!

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