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Nightflier's Midnight Game Thread

Game Master nightflier

Set in the grim world of Aryth, Nightflier's Midnight is a game that speaks of almost futile hope that shines against the darkness.


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Cheliax

Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:

Actually, between the incoming Orc and the Dwarven barbarian, we've got a couple decent tanks.

What we're shy on is rogue-types. We have Pete, and he's very good, but another couldn't hurt. We've doubled up on everything else. (except healers, but there's a lot less room for variance in that one. Gilian's pretty much the ultimate Midnight healer build already)

Also, since Nightflier mentioned that you would likely be a sort of in-and-out recurring character rather than a main cast member, the rogue gives you a handy "escape clause" to be able to come and go as you please.

Another good way of emulating that effect is by having a character that can shapeshift (beast shape, elemental form, wind walk, ect)

Might be something worth thinking about.

Also, if you're thinking about being a Dorn and possibly tying what you come up with to Anvinder or myself, I've got a lot of ideas built right in. Just let me know your thoughts.

I could do a rouge thing but I'm not sure how to do it and make it dorn worthy doesn't seem like a dorish thing hmm maybe an elf of sometype are the any HP's that give eleshape or mist form or something cause that would be neat being able to turn into somke "air" or something would be neat hmm I has idea if nightflier would work with me on something there is a template called shadowwalker for fr campagin setting that might make a neat path if we could work it out cause I looked through the :ps on the srd and I don't remember seeing anything like that and I have an idea for it to fit in my backstory I'll be another one from the otherside of the fence if it works


Male Black Blood Dwarf Fighter 5
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
For his bonus feat (monk) I was going to take dodge, but what does Ragnar think about Deflect Arrows or Combat Reflexes? I can't see a lot of opportunity for those, or at least Combat Reflexes I see being cumbersome. And for a fighting class that can't wear much armor, every point of AC counts.

Normally I'd say Combat reflexes all the way, but in this game where we do not really have a map to view or the ability to move tactically, I agree, it would probably be a waste.

Deflect Arrows is a great feat because it's reactive. Simply being able to say once a round that an arrow doesn't hit you can be pretty valuable. (Deflect Arrows=Screw you, Archer-Rogue build)

In my opinion, Dodge is decent, but only really useful as a stepping stone for some of the awesome things it's a prereq for. If you're not planning on going for spring attack or whirlwind attack, don't bother.

Why not ask Nightflier if he'd allow a similar-powered feat (a feat at the beginning of a tree, or a stand-alone) that would be more character appropriate? He's altered the classes pretty heavily already, and it's always nice to see what your options are before you make a choice.

Gotcha on Dodge. Especially since he effectively has Spring Attack at second level with a successful Acrobatics check.

I can't think of any feats right now that might be good replacements, but Nightflier, what do you think of Ragnar's suggestion?

Also, can Deflect Arrows work if a character is aiding another character in combat? For example, Chops favorite heroine is engaging enemies with her new bow, and Chops is standing there knocking down return fire to keep it from hitting her.

Well technically if Chops was willing to take his character down a slightly different path, rather than using up feats you could do exactly what you wanted with the Cover Ally defender ability. Unfortunately it's a 2nd tier ability and the prereq is dodge training.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

Pre-battle, slow-mo walk scene music. for your enjoyment ;)

For our newbies, there's your introduction to the characters. (For best results play the music in the background as you read the other thread.)

Yes, we are all total badasses. Try to keep up. ;)


nightflier wrote:
Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:


So that puts us at 2000 xp. If we're using the normal xp track, that's a level for us.

How are we handling it?

You level up on your next rest. But since you just had one, and those dwarves are summoning something, and Zafina disappeared who knows where... By the way, rat busted Eyvindr's sword. You should take the pieces for reforging, I suppose.
nightflier wrote:
Ragnar, I've noticed that you leveled up your character. It is not the right time yet for doing so. The party haven't had a rest period. You will all level up only after resting.

I leveled up as well. I thought the bolded meant you were going to count our previous rest as "the rest" since we still had a bunch of stuff to fight and we were all pretty beat up. I'll adjust back down.

Cheliax

Guys, be prepared for even tougher battle when you go against the ritualists. The head honcho is 5th level priest of Izrador. I love you guys and I am having extreme fun with this game, but I will not pull any punches.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

Ok, so we're still level 1. Got it. I know all my previous numbers. Not a problem.

What is a problem is throwing the lot of us up against a CR5 encounter when we're about out of magic, healing and Rage. Just by the numbers we will be very lucky to survive this.

Not that I'm really complaining. That's what Midnight is all about.

Recommended plan folks-

Chops, and possibly Ragnar too, grapple him. Everyone else surround him and gang beat him. Pete will be our big damage source, but he needs his sneak attack and we can't ever let the jerk blow that whistle or get a spell off. The new guys try to hold off the minions.

Any supporting ideas or counter-arguments?

Cheliax

Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:


What is a problem is throwing the lot of us up against a CR5 encounter when we're about out of magic, healing and Rage. Just by the numbers we will be very lucky to survive this.

Well, yes. That's what Midnight is. Izrador does not play fair, right? When all of this started, you had Pete and two wildlanders for scouting. The problem is that your two wildlanders are now dead. You need to do some scouting before formulating any plans.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
nightflier wrote:
Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:


What is a problem is throwing the lot of us up against a CR5 encounter when we're about out of magic, healing and Rage. Just by the numbers we will be very lucky to survive this.
Well, yes. That's what Midnight is. Izrador does not play fair, right? When all of this started, you had Pete and two wildlanders for scouting. The problem is that your two wildlanders are now dead. You need to do some scouting before formulating any plans.

Well then someone with a bit more sense (gilian?) should probably suggest it in game.

Also, for Sorok, there's a whole pile of dwarven weapons in the next room. Might want to arm yourself.


Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:

Ok, so we're still level 1. Got it. I know all my previous numbers. Not a problem.

What is a problem is throwing the lot of us up against a CR5 encounter when we're about out of magic, healing and Rage. Just by the numbers we will be very lucky to survive this.

Not that I'm really complaining. That's what Midnight is all about.

Recommended plan folks-

Chops, and possibly Ragnar too, grapple him. Everyone else surround him and gang beat him. Pete will be our big damage source, but he needs his sneak attack and we can't ever let the jerk blow that whistle or get a spell off. The new guys try to hold off the minions.

Any supporting ideas or counter-arguments?

I like that plan. It reminds me of how the Black Company took out The Dominator. With Chops maintaining a grapple, he can deal 1d6+3 points of damage , scratch that 1d8+4 points of damage automatically (at least the way I read the rules.) The urutuk is a one handed weapon, but Chops can get him in a leg lock and go to town with two-handed swings while Ragnar pins. Even if swinging a one-handed weapon with two hands within a grapple is out, it is still 1d8+3 pts. During this, Pete uses Sleight of Hand to get that whistle off of him, then sneak attacks to his hearts content.

Meanwhile, Solvistania is picking them off with her bow, Ilona probably should be whacking at the ritualist, and Gillian picks off mooks with the Sorok and the other new one (can't remember the name just right now.)

This is, of course, after a good scouting mission.

PS...what are you worried about? Isn't Ragnar a CR5 creature all by himself ;P


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:


PS...what are you worried about? Isn't Ragnar a CR5 creature all by himself ;P

With all the carrying on that's happened, you'd think so. Sigh.

Cheliax

Anvinder, please add the description of Haunted One feat to your sheet.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

*Insert long frustrated string of cursing aimed at useless dead dwarven children here*


Female Human (Sarcosan) Fighter 2/ Chaneller 3

LMAO

Cheliax

Guys, let's move on. It's midnight here, so it's kinda appropriate hour for decision making. Do you want to move back into the ritual chamber, stay behind the iron doors in the cell section, or pull back into the forest? Whatever you decide, I'm gonna be online for a few hours more, than to bed.


Chops is moving down. Although I thought we were all in the ritual chamber and the bad guys had retreated farther down.


Female Human (Sarcosan) Fighter 2/ Chaneller 3

Let's do this. Kill 'em all, we're going in.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Ilona Ebonblade wrote:
Let's do this. Kill 'em all, we're going in.

Yep, that's what we're doing. Morituri te Salutant.


Sorry about my absense, but yeah Solvi is happy with the plan


Male Orc, Tribe Moon mother, convert: White Mother Sect 3/wildlander

Ok guys, I intend on getting some work done on Kiron’s character today, hopefully have him ready to go either today or tomorrow that way I can bit my nails for the remainder of the couple weeks. I put the rest of my character talk under spoilers; I don’t mind anyone looking under them and definitely don’t mind opinions or advice, mostly I don’t want to take over the discussion thread with Kiron talk. I have a feeling I am going to post quite a bit in here until I am posting IC.

Kiron character notes:
The Idea behind the duality of the Hero paths and Kiron’s nature is the collar, If the natural lycanthrope aspect of the moon tribe will step on Pete’s beast ( I will say that I would be going with a canine version and not feline), then that definitely is not my goal, so I would be open to changing it, I could go for a more dark ritual demonic thing for the original evil aspect of Kiron. Regardless of what he is in his previous state, group wise hopefully we won’t ever have to see it, because he would indeed be the enemy if we did. The collar and hopefully my covenant item is what is taking and sealing off his natural evil aspect and closing it off. If the blessed path ends up something angelic that is good with me too. I’m flexible with both of these because it is something that Kiron wouldn’t have had control over. If they snapped an angel collar around his neck, well that’s what they did and he is better off for it. I do like the contrast of being a demonic servant of Izrador and being an angelic orc rebel.

flesh eater:

Flesh Eater
There have been throughout history many primitive cultures that
believed by eating the flesh of their enemies they could gain their
power. However, the truth behind this myth is not quite so clear-cut.
In truth, only those truly without remorse, and who know the secrets
of pain and flesh taught to them by outsiders, can benefit from such
things. Once someone commits such an atrocity, however, the taint
of it stays in his bloodline forever more, and the gift, if it can be
called that, to draw power from the devouring of flesh is passed
from generation to generation.
Level Ability
1 Secrets of the Flesh, Rend Flesh d4
2 Blood Rage 1/day
3 Draw Forth the Life
4 -
5 Peel Back the Skin +1
6 Heart of the Matter
7 Blood Rage 2/day
8 Rend Flesh d6
9 Scalp Foe
10 Peel Back the Skin +2
11 -
12 Bone Daddy
13 Blood Rage 3/day
14 Windows to the Soul
15 Peel Back the Skin +3
16 Rend Flesh d10
17 Brain Matter
18 -
19 Soul Bind 1/day
20 Peel Back the Skin +4

Flesh Eater Ability Description
Secrets of the Flesh (Sp): At 1st level a flesh eater has learned
the secrets of taking power from eating the flesh of his enemies. By
eating the flesh of an enemy the character can gain the effects of
bull’s strength for one round per character level. The flesh must be
eaten from a foe within one hour of him dying, and has no power if
kept till later.
Rend Flesh (Ex): At 1st level a flesh eater develops sharp claws
and razor-like teeth with which to tear and rend flesh from his
victims. He can do d4 damage with them and not provoke an attack
of opportunity. At 6th level the damage increases to d6, and at 16th
level it increases again to d10.
Blood Rage (Sp): Beginning at 2nd level the sight and scent of
blood can send the flesh eater into a ravenous frenzy, temporarily
increasing his strength and constitution by +2 (and thereby +1 hp
per level) and his Will saves by +1 for one round per level.
However, he suffers a –1 penalty to AC. The flesh eater will attack
until all enemies are down and defeated or the blood rage subsides,
at which point he must feast upon the remains of the fallen for the
remainder of the encounter.
Draw Forth the Life (Sp): From 3rd level a flesh eater learns
how to draw the life force from drinking his enemies’ blood. This
only works on the 10 points of lifeblood between a character
reaching 0 and –10 (the dying range). For each point of blood he
drinks from a bleeding enemy within this range, he is restored a like
number of hit points.
Peel Back the Skin (Sp): Starting at 5th level, a flesh eater
learns the secrets of the skin and can, by spending an hour, skin a
defeated foe. If the skin of this foe is eaten, for the next hour plus 2
levels of the character, the flesh eater receives a natural armor bonus
equal to the amount listed: +1 at 5th, +2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4
at 20th level.
Heart of the Matter (Sp): At 6th level the secrets of the heart
reveal themselves to the flesh eater: not the subtleties of amour, but
how to release the power of a foe by eating his heart. By eating the
heart of an enemy the character can gain the effect of bear’s
endurance for one round per character level. The heart must be
eaten from a foe within one round of him dying, and has no power if
kept until later.
Scalp Foe (Sp): Upon reaching 9th level a flesh eater learns
how to scalp a foe, something he is able to do on any critical hit with
a small or medium slashing weapon. By scalping an enemy the
character can gain the effects of eagle’s splendor for one hour per
character level, at the end of which time the power of the scalping is
used up, but the character can keep the scalp as a souvenir all the
same.
Bone Daddy (Sp): At 12th level a flesh eater learns the process
by which he can take the thigh bone of a fallen enemy and grind it
down into a pulp; when mixed and drank with water, this grants the
effect of cat’s grace for 1d4 rounds. The bone may only come from
a foe the flesh eater has killed himself, but may be kept for up to a
week before losing its power. A single medium-sized thighbone will
produce on average 5 applications.
Windows to the Soul (Sp): At 14th level a flesh eater has
learned how to take the power from the eyes of his foes. By eating
the eyes of an enemy (one foe can provide two applications), the
character can gain the effect of owl’s wisdom for one round per
character level. The eyes must be eaten within a day, and have no
power if kept beyond this time.
Brain Matter (Sp): From 17th level a flesh eater learns how to
take the power of his foe by eating his fresh brain. By doing so the
character can gain the effects of fox’s cunning for one hour per
character level. The brain must be eaten from a foe within one round
of him dying and has no power if kept until later.
Soul Bind (Sp): At 19th level a flesh eater can cast soul bind
once per day as per the spell of the same name, cast as a channeler
of the character’s level. No receptacle (focus) is required for this
spell, as the flesh eater himself absorbs the soul. Souls within a flesh
eater can only be released if he wills them free, or upon his demise.

p.s. I emailed you Nightflier, let me know if it didn't get to you.


Male Orc, Tribe Moon mother, convert: White Mother Sect 3/wildlander
divineshadow wrote:
I could do a rouge thing but I'm not sure how to do it and make it dorn worthy doesn't seem like a dorish thing hmm maybe an elf of sometype are the any HP's that give eleshape or mist form or something cause that would be neat being able to turn into somke "air" or something would be neat hmm I has idea if nightflier would work with me on something there is a template called shadowwalker for fr campagin setting that might make a neat path if we could work it out cause I looked through the :ps on the srd and I don't remember seeing anything like that and I have an idea for it to fit in my backstory I'll be another one from the otherside of the fence if it works

you could always atempt to invoke a loki-esque persona, if loki isn't a god of the dornish rogues, I don't know what he is.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Kiron WhiteMoon wrote:

Ok guys, I intend on getting some work done on Kiron’s character today, hopefully have him ready to go either today or tomorrow that way I can bit my nails for the remainder of the couple weeks. I put the rest of my character talk under spoilers; I don’t mind anyone looking under them and definitely don’t mind opinions or advice, mostly I don’t want to take over the discussion thread with Kiron talk. I have a feeling I am going to post quite a bit in here until I am posting IC.

no problem here. I'm enjoying the discussion during the down time.

an idea for you-

Spoiler:

What if the "true nature" was actually the good side? What if the Mother-Wives invoked some kind of ritual that tainted his soul when they discovered he was special and powerful, but prone to feelings that ran counter to the teachings of izrador?

It could very much be a ltcanthropic thing too, the taint waxing and waning with lunar patterns .

The thing that makes this a more interesting choice (at least to me) is because it builds plot and motivation right into the game. If Kiron knows he's been tainted and that the collar is the only thing suppressing it, he's going to not only be fighting the jekyl/hyde battle, he's also going to be looking for a cure for the curse (again with the lycanthrope imagery). If the evil side is the true nature, that's a very different character.

I guess it's just a matter of if you want to play the "bound demon being forced to do good against his will" or the "fallen angel seeking redemption and forgiveness."


Male Black Blood Dwarf Fighter 5

Nighflier:
Bit of a late character creation idea, this came about due to your mixing of the wildlander with the Pathfinder Ranger. Due to the epic nature of this campaign, would it be ok if we were alter the Pathfinder Barbarian class and mix it with the Midnight Barbarian class. Maybe not giving both Rage powers and tier abilities as that might be a little over the top, although certainly cool. But the Midnight Barbarian offers some very appropriate feats and neat abilities that I wouldn't have to be raging to use.


Male Black Blood Dwarf Fighter 5

Background edited to fit in Dorzar.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

Kiron, Nightflier, the heavensent Path is up at Against the Shadow.

Cheliax

Sorok Hamfael wrote:

Nighflier:

Bit of a late character creation idea, this came about due to your mixing of the wildlander with the Pathfinder Ranger. Due to the epic nature of this campaign, would it be ok if we were alter the Pathfinder Barbarian class and mix it with the Midnight Barbarian class. Maybe not giving both Rage powers and tier abilities as that might be a little over the top, although certainly cool. But the Midnight Barbarian offers some very appropriate feats and neat abilities that I wouldn't have to be raging to use.

I am sorry, but Midnight barbarian is the same as in Core Rules. It says so at the beginning of the Core Classes chapter of Midnight 2nd Ed. rulebook. Can you be more specific?


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
nightflier wrote:
Can you be more specific?

He's talking about this.

Cheliax

Sorok Hamfael wrote:

Nighflier:

Bit of a late character creation idea, this came about due to your mixing of the wildlander with the Pathfinder Ranger. Due to the epic nature of this campaign, would it be ok if we were alter the Pathfinder Barbarian class and mix it with the Midnight Barbarian class. Maybe not giving both Rage powers and tier abilities as that might be a little over the top, although certainly cool. But the Midnight Barbarian offers some very appropriate feats and neat abilities that I wouldn't have to be raging to use.

I've read the class, but I am little tired right now and have a lot of work to do, so I'm gonna shirk a little of my DM responsibilities - tell you what, you (and Ragnar, if he wants) do a detailed progression of combined Midnight and Pathfinder barbarian and I'll review it. Don't make it too powerful, but make it suitably heroic. If you want, you can even create some kind of headhunter alternative barbarian, or something based on stealth.

Cheliax

Kiron and Ragnar:
At this time, I would prefer if you would stick with wolf lycan theme. It will be easier for me to include you in the game later on, since I already made some plans concerning wolves. Could you talk with Ragnar about Warg Heroic Path?

Ragnar, could you do something with Warg HP for Kiron? Wolf oriented warg would fit very nicely with my plans for the next part of the campaign, when you finish Ruined Warrens, and I'm very limited with my time right now.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
nightflier wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

I'll see what I can do. It won't be as much of a mirror in terms of the path switch, but if I do it right, there might not even need to be a path switch. Just an alignment one. That would actually be pretty neat too.

Kiron, would you mind making a profile of the Against the Shadow forums and discussing this with me there. Like you said, it's better not to clog up this thread, and that's where I do all my work anyway.

Over there my avatar is Doomed Hero. I should be easy to find.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

I gotta say, the stuff going on right now with Pete, Chops and NF's descriptions of their rolls has me laughing my ass off. You guys are killing me.


Male Orc, Tribe Moon mother, convert: White Mother Sect 3/wildlander

Sure, I was considering making an avi over there anyhow. Look for Kiron Whitemoon....and this link.


Male Black Blood Dwarf Fighter 5

So Ragnar and I did some work on the Midnight/Pathfinder Barbarian crossover and here's what we came up with.

Basically we took the Pathfinder Barbarian and gave it the Midnight Barbarian traits and bonus feats at the appropriate levels, while taking out the Midnight Barbarian special abilities because we thought they made it too powerful. So here is the level progression.

Barbarian:

1st:Barbarian trait, Rage, fast movement,Endurance
2nd:Rage power, Barbarian trait, uncanny dodge,
3rd:Trap sense +1
4th:Rage power, Die hard
5th:Barbarian trait,Improve uncanny dodge,
6th:Rage power,Trap-sense +2
7th:Damage reduction 1/-, Improved toughness
8th:Rage power, Barbarian trait,
9th:Trap-sense +3
10th:Rage power, Damage reduction 2/-
11th:Barbarian trait, Greater Rage,
12th:Rage power, Trap-sense +4
13th:Damage reduction 3/-
14th:Rage power, Barbarian trait
15th:Trap-sense +5
16th:Rage power,Damage reduction 4/-
17th:Barbarian trait, Tireless rage
18th:Rage power, Trap-sense +6
19th:Damage reduction 5/-
20th:Rage power, Barbarian trait, Mighty Rage

The abilities that were removed are as follows:
3rd: Suck it up: Even the mightiest of blows might feel like just a sting to the barbarian. Upon reaching 3rd level, when a barbarian is hit but before he knows for how much damage he is hit, he may decide to halve that amount of damage. The barbarian may do this once per day at 3rd level, twice per day at 9th level, and three times per day upon reaching 15th level.
9th: Heart:The barbarian is a fierce and brave warrior, not easily dissuaded from death or danger. At 9th level, he gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against fear effects. At 14th level, this bonus rises to +4. At 19th level, the barbarian reduces the level of any fear-like effect by one step. In the case of the shaken condition, this ability removes the fear effect entirely.
18th: Shrug it Off: The barbarian becomes even hardier, healing hit points faster than other people would. The barbarian now recovers hit points and ability point damage twice as fast as normal characters, this increase to triple the amount with full rest or long term care or quadruple with both.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Kiron WhiteMoon wrote:
Sure, I was considering making an avi over there anyhow. Look for Kiron Whitemoon....and this link.

Got it. The path is up. [http://www.againsttheshadow.org/index.php?topic=1649.msg16675;topicseen#new] Here ya go[/url]


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Sorok Hamfael wrote:


Basically we took the Pathfinder Barbarian and gave it the Midnight Barbarian traits and bonus feats at the appropriate levels, while taking out the Midnight Barbarian special abilities because we thought they made it too powerful.

It makes me cringe a bit, but no more so than Ranger/Wildlander hybrids.

I've got this thing in my head regarding various power levels that I need to think out. I'll post later.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:
I'll post later.

So later didn't take that long. This is a long post regarding some play-balance issues and potential out of game dangers we might face. Feel free to ignore it if the nitty gritty stuff in our hobby isn't your favorite thing

Anyway, here's what I've been thinking about-

It concerns me a bit that as the players generated their characters, many of them, essentially, were using different rules sets which vary wildly in power and effectiveness.

There are two separate issues going on, so i'll address them separately. The first is about Classes, the Second is about Paths.

Classes-

Spoiler:

It's fairly common knowledge that in 3.5 the character classes were all over the place in terms of balance and ability (Cleric and Druid at the top of the stack, Monk and Fighter at the bottom). Pathfinder fixed a lot of that, but not all (I don't actually think it's possible to really balance all the classes against each other, but that's another discussion). Essentially the power spread is a lot tighter these days.

Until we threw in the Midnight classes. Now the Ranger, the Monk and now the Barbarian have gotten a whole other stack of abilities. Essentially, those three classes are now Gestalt classes. (weak gestalts, sure, but stay with me for the sake of argument)

I've been in enough Gestalt games (including a few with a parties that included both Gesh and Non-Gesh characters) to know that the extra abilities don't actually make a character much more powerful. (Hit Dice, BaB and Caster Level do that). They mostly just make them more versatile. In this case, we're gestalt-ing a class with another very similar class. This decreases the amount of versatility, but does increase specialization a lot. (Imagine what you could do if you made a Gestalt Fighter/Fighter, as an example of what the "doubling up" danger is. What we're doing is not quite that bad, but it's close)

Paths-

Spoiler:

Like classes, not all paths are created equal. The gap of effectiveness is even more pronounced than in the old classes. I've made new versions of the worst offenders, bringing them up to par with the best of the old stuff, but that means that some of the good-but-not-top-tier paths are now the bottom of the barrel, and there is still a pretty big discrepancy in power between, say, the Ironborn and the Healer

What we basically have are three tiers of power in the Paths. The Pathfinder paths, which have been brought up much like the Pathfinder classes were, the "good" old paths and the "bad" old paths. (keep in mind, i'm not judging them as ideas, or anyone's character choices, I'm only judging the path itself in terms of overall effectiveness. I use the term "bad" because it's easy, not because it's an attack)

Someone with a Pathfinder path is going to see a fairly obvious difference in what they can do when compared with what someone with one of the "bad" old paths can do. (Anvinder and Ilona are a good example of this. Ilona has the ability to Stun creatures at will. Anvinder has the ability to fall asleep at will.)

Character Comparisons-

Spoiler:

So I've mapped out a short list of who's doing what and where that puts them in terms of numerical effectiveness. Keep in mind I'm making no judgments on the characters, or how thier players built them. Also, feat choice can go a long way towards shaping a character's effectiveness. This list is only to give a visual representation of where the characters fall according to class/path combinations.

This list is ordered from most to least numerically powerful.

Gestalt Class/Pathfinder Path

kiron- wildlander wereling

sorok- barbarian shadow walker

Gestalt class/ Good path

ragnar- barbarian haunted

chops- defender steelblooded

Normal class/Pathfinder Path

ilona- fighter charismatic

Normal class/ Good path

gillian- channeler healer

solvistania- channeler dragonborn

pete- rogue beast

Normal class/Bad Path

anvindr- channeler dreamer

What all this means is that as the game progresses, we may be prone to some wild power imbalances in terms of character effectiveness. It's not a big deal now because the numbers being thrown around are just not that big right now, and the powers are short lived and fairly tame.

This will not be the case by 5th level.

Keep in mind, this is not a complaint at all. I've played, and thoroughly enjoyed, games where i was playing Frodo to someone else's Gandalf, but if you don't know that's what you're getting into it can be kind of disheartening to realize it later.

Mostly what this is, is a warning of what may come later. If you're one of the big guns, no one wants you to feel resented. If you're one of the guys who had to sacrifice some effectiveness to get the flavor you wanted, no one wants you to feel overshadowed. If you have any concerns, I hope you speak up.

I have no reason to believe that Nightflier won't make the necessary adjustments to reign in the brutes or give a hand up to those that are falling behind.

I hope this helps you corroborate any gut feelings you may have had but didn't have time to waste figuring out why.

Thanks for bearing with me while I thought all this out.


male halfling rogue 1

What's a "Pathfinder path"?


Female Human (Sarcosan) Fighter 2/ Chaneller 3

That actually unfolded exactly as I expected. I see Ilona as being in the middle in terms of combat effectiveness. However, it's also important to look at roles when determining effectiveness. I've always thought of Ilona's role as the person who makes every team member better just by being on the team.

Considering the abilities of the path coupled with the abilities that will come by multiclassing with Charismatic Chaneller, and eventually Warrior Arcanist, at level 5 assuming Fighter 2 Chaneller 3, she'll give every party member a bonus to combat rolls and skills, stun, distract or charm enemies just by looking at them, while still being effective in a fight. Make your allies better, your enemies worse, then kill them.

Like a good point guard.

If effectiveness is then measured by how well you do what you are supposed to do, which in her case is inspire everyone to be amazing, then she's just as effective as the killing machines.

Damn, she really is a Sarcosan Valkyr isn't she. :)


Male Orc, Tribe Moon mother, convert: White Mother Sect 3/wildlander

I think he may have just wrote pathfinder as a typo, I think it is suppose to be class/path.

While I respect your opinion and I haven't seen it in action, I am not at all trying to make the #1 badA**. I took Wildlander because Divine shadow didn't want to and we needed a wildlander in the group(and mostly I just want to be in the group.) as far as the were side of my character went, I assumed it was going to be supressed and hidden away unless hell broke loose and Kiron actually went bad. In which case, I assume the rest of the group would kill him(not something I want at all)

the wildlander + ranger for me looks like this.

Pathfinder
---------
bab +1 fort+2 ref+2 wil+0 abilities:: favored enemy, track, wild empathy

Midnight
---------
bab+1 fort+2 ref+0 wil+0 abilities:: Track, wildlander trait

equals
--------
bab+1 fort+2 ref+2 wil+0 abilities:: track, favored enemy,wild empathy, wildlander trait ( I took skilled +3 to a skill)

so, essentially I took the best of the bonuses, I didn't add them together and I have an extra ability if we are going by path finder, or two extra if we are going by midinight.

Now if the paths go as I think they are going to, I am taking the wereling path.(which you just designed DH, so if its over powered lets take it down a notch.) =)

Just saying how I see it. Definitely don't want to be entering the game arguing, and if there is still a power issue, well that is why I have been asking for input.


Male Orc, Tribe Moon mother, convert: White Mother Sect 3/wildlander

I've got my crunch done! I think I need to embellish a bit more on the description, make a decision on how the paths are going to work, get equipment and run everything by the gm. And I'll be ready to attempt to negotiate an Orc into your party.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Ilona Ebonblade wrote:
That actually unfolded exactly as I expected.

I figured it wouldn't really be surprising stuff to most people. It was just on my mind, and I thought I'd get it all out there so we're all on the same page.

Pete the Runt wrote:
What's a "Pathfinder path"?

On the Against the Shadow website, myself and a few others have developed "pathfinder updates" of a lot of the existing paths. I've posted up the work on the forums there. (It's where Ilona got her version of the Charismatic path from.)

Basically, we've taken the weaker ones and bumped them up, split a few of the "muddy" ones into multiple concepts and generally tried to do with the paths what Pathfinder did with the 3.5 classes.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Kiron WhiteMoon wrote:

character related stuff.

Slow down there, hoss. ;)

I'm not in any way saying your character is overpowered. I'm saying that you have the benefit of having an extremely good path/class combination. I think that you have an interesting character concept backed up very well by the numbers.

I am almost never one to b%~~& about power balance. Generally speaking, I don't care as long as the rules allow someone to do what they think their character ought to be capable of. In a good game it doesn't really matter. Everyone still gets their time to shine.

The only reason I brought it up is because early on in this game there was some tension regarding power balance, and even though the player that was most concerned about it (Sky'tor) isn't with us any longer, the nature of his concerns still stuck with me. I wanted to map out for Nightflier what I saw as some possible mechanical advantages and disadvantages that we may see over the course of the game, and to see if there was anyone else who had the same concerns as Sky'tor did.

As we've already seen, feat selection combined with clever play can overcome any possible inherent weakness of a build. Pete's a great example of this. He's not using one of Nightflier's Gestalt classes, and he's using one of the un-updated paths (a good one, certainly, but nowhere near the best) and so far, in terms of character effectiveness, he's definitely our MVP. Right after him is probably Gilian, who is also in the same Class/Path tier.

Don't worry about if your character is overpowered or not. I have full faith in our ability to make sure he doesn't outshine anyone else.


Male Orc, Tribe Moon mother, convert: White Mother Sect 3/wildlander

*slows to a stand still and discards the name Hoss*

After rereading my post, that came off way more defensive then I intended. Sorry about that, when I was writing it, it was coming from a much more reasonable tone then I invoked.

I hope to not make my self outshine anyone but the group to shine brighter.(I think Ilona said that somewhere in this thread.)

Cheliax

Kiron WhiteMoon wrote:

I think he may have just wrote pathfinder as a typo, I think it is suppose to be class/path.

While I respect your opinion and I haven't seen it in action, I am not at all trying to make the #1 badA**. I took Wildlander because Divine shadow didn't want to and we needed a wildlander in the group

Its not that I don't waant to according to nightflier unless you guys bleed a player I'm not a permant party member I didn't want to be something I where I would become vital for and mess up his plans or leave the group with out something and as for race I'm waiting on nightflier for a few things but he was talking bout me being an elfling DH if you would like to help me plot out my character hit me up at oberontheelfking@gmail.com and ilet me ping a few ideas off you I may go dorn or something else anyways


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
divineshadow wrote:
more character stuff

Man, how did I get pegged as the newbie-helper guy. ;)

Not that I mind, I'm just curious how this keeps happening. It's sort of a running theme. Heh.

For midnight related stuff I prefer working on Against the Shadow, since all the resources we'd be referencing are right there. It also gives other folks the opportunity to benefit from whatever ideas we come up with and chime in if they see something the like.

Why don't you make a profile over there and jump into the thread Kiron and I started. It'll be one of the ones listed in the lower left column. Should be easy to find.


Male Orc, Tribe Moon mother, convert: White Mother Sect 3/wildlander

* takes other foot out of mouth*


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

So upon looking at all the character related stuff that's been posted, I've noticed that I've sort of been monopolizing this thread. I apologize.

To avoid this, I'd like to ask anyone who has questions or discussion topics that do not relate to what is happening immediately in the game here to find me at the AtS forums. I'll be more than happy to talk about anything there. That's what it's for. I feel like this is not, and I doubt those of you that aren't concerning yourself with the recent discussions want to sift through all our stuff to find the few posts that are in-game relevant.

Once again, sorry for taking up so much board space lately. I'll knock it off.

Cheliax

Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:
divineshadow wrote:
more character stuff

Man, how did I get pegged as the newbie-helper guy. ;)

Not that I mind, I'm just curious how this keeps happening. It's sort of a running theme. Heh.

For midnight related stuff I prefer working on Against the Shadow, since all the resources we'd be referencing are right there. It also gives other folks the opportunity to benefit from whatever ideas we come up with and chime in if they see something the like.

Why don't you make a profile over there and jump into the thread Kiron and I started. It'll be one of the ones listed in the lower left column. Should be easy to find.

Because until I can buy a new comp I'm stuck with my blackberry and I can't sign up or even find a sign up/ login button over there while on my berry however I can read the fourms there just fine


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
divineshadow wrote:


Because until I can buy a new comp I'm stuck with my blackberry and I can't sign up or even find a sign up/ login button over there while on my berry however I can read the fourms there just fine

If you can use the sign in button here, you should be able to use the one over there. It's all the same coding.

But, to help you out, here's the registration page.

The login area is in the middle of the left column.


Female Human (Sarcosan) Fighter 2/ Chaneller 3

HEY ALL JUST A LITTLE MOOD MUSIC FOR THE NEXT FIGHT.

Cheliax

Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:
divineshadow wrote:


Because until I can buy a new comp I'm stuck with my blackberry and I can't sign up or even find a sign up/ login button over there while on my berry however I can read the fourms there just fine

If you can use the sign in button here, you should be able to use the one over there. It's all the same coding.

But, to help you out, here's the registration page.

The login area is in the middle of the left column.

Yay that worked now what thread do I look for

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