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Navior's Serpent's Skull

Game Master Navior


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Grand Lodge

"Yes. Stay there!"
That's what I heard. And I got to tell you, I'm awful thirsty.


Male Human Traveler / 8

I might have run it that way but I didn't think of that until I just now came and read your post. That would have been pretty funny, actually. I wonder how many stakes he could have made at Aycenia's before y'all showed up?


Eh, that was a pretty decent Sense Motive roll for such a wacky misunderstanding. Now, if you'd rolled a one....


Yikes, Mahjik! And you're always so accommodating to Douena, too. You'd think Desna would pick on someone else.

If Douena fails her Heal check, she's totally going to assume it's related to the snake-person poison. Str and Dex! :P


Male Human Traveler / 8

Sorry for disappearing the last few days. There's been an unexpected death and the funeral was today. Flying home later and will try to be back to my normal posting by tomorrow.

In other news, I've really had it with 2011. Bring on the new year and better times.

Grand Lodge

My condolences. Take the time you need.

Hit points: 1d6 ⇒ 3
Re-roll: 1d6 ⇒ 5
Nice.

What's the word on the potions?


It's actually supposed to be me doing the re-roll. Why? Because it's fun. It also keeps people honest, but mostly because it's fun. When I play in person, I do it as a secret roll made at the same time as the player. The player can then choose his/her roll or choose to have mine revealed. It's strangely satisfying. We gamers get a weird pleasure out of rolling dice.

At any rate, it's not really a big deal, so go ahead and take the roll of 5. :)


1d8 ⇒ 8

Seriously. Mahjik's constitution is clearly warped. Sick all the time, but full of life.


Female Gnome Cleric 4/ Rogue (burglar) 2

1d8 ⇒ 1

Mahjik just took my 8. That's why Desna is punishing him with disease.

*sigh* Re-roll me, Navior.


shishishishi :D

Mahjik's now level 4 monk (empty hand and qinggong archetypes)

Highlights:
- gains +1 Wisdom (now 18)
- ki pool 6 ki/day
- replace slowfall with barkskin ki power
- skills: acrobatics +1, perception +1, sense motive +2, sleight of hand +1

Full details on charsheet


Douena Trestleben wrote:

1d8

Mahjik just took my 8. That's why Desna is punishing him with disease.

*sigh* Re-roll me, Navior.

At least you know that with a re-roll there is no chance of doing any worse. :)

1d8 ⇒ 7


Male Human Traveler / 8

1d10 ⇒ 7

Wow, that's the best roll for hp Lorenz has got yet!

Thanks for the patience and condolences, guys. I had to fly back from the west coast on the red eye and then go straight in to work for meetings all day. When I finally got home I just crashed for about 15 hours. Sweet sleep...

Anyway, I should be back in business now.

Shadow Lodge

Um, if Makoa prays at night for spells, and he takes a level of druid, does that mean he has spell slots he can't fill?

1d8 ⇒ 2

Re-roll please.

+1 Wisdom


Dragonborn3 wrote:

Um, if Makoa prays at night for spells, and he takes a level of druid, does that mean he has spell slots he can't fill?

1d8

Re-roll please.

+1 Wisdom

He can fill all his spell slots. From an in-game perspective, he just ends up with more spells than he was expecting. :)

1d8 ⇒ 6


Will get Douena updated in a few hours. Have to take the kids to a Halloween carnival tonight.


Male Human Traveler / 8

Lorenz is updated. The changes are:

Level 4:

HP + 1d10 = 7 (+2 Con, +1 favored class bonus = +10 total.)
Attribute Increase: + 1 to Strength.
Skills: + 3 ranks (Fighter +2, Human +1) - +1 Perception, +1 Survival, +1 Swim)
BAB: +1
Fort: +1
Bonus Feat: Deadly Aim

Lorenz gets to use that shiny new bow now, right? Strength is now 16 for +3 modifier.


Update:
cleric level 2
+1 to Dexterity
hp 7 from Navior's roll above
+1 Fort & Will
+1 BAB
+1 orison slot, +1 1st-level spell slot
4 skill points + 1 favored class: Acrobatics, Diplomacy (see? finally remembered it!), Disable Device, Perception, Stealth


Male Human Traveler / 8

Boy, the chaos doesn't stop. Lost power on Saturday night as the nor'eastern slammed us and though it came back on Sunday morning, the cable is still out so I don't have any internet access. Trees are down all over the place. The weather has been so weird this year that the leaves hadn't finished changing yet either so it's an especially big mess.

Anyway, I hope there aren't any problems for any of you!


Okay, I'm finally getting a chance to review updated characters. Yay!

Douena looks great.

Wander Weir wrote:
Lorenz gets to use that shiny new bow now, right? Strength is now 16 for +3 modifier.

Lorenz can indeed use that shiny new bow now. :)

Everything looks fine with Lorenz, but I think you missed that several of his magical items were identified by Urza the previous day. The scimitar is +1. The magical arrows consist of seven +1 arrows and two +2. Only the one unique arrow remains unidentified.

Also, not a problem, but a suggestion: At level 4, a fighter can retrain an earlier bonus feat. Since Lorenz's Strength is now equal to his Dexterity, he no longer really gains any benefit from his Weapon Finesse feat. You might want to consider swapping it out for something else. Of course, if he gains a boost to his Dex at some point, the Weapon Finesse would again provide a benefit, so there's still a trade-off involved.

Now, I go to review the other characters...


Mahjik the Flink wrote:

shishishishi :D

Mahjik's now level 4 monk (empty hand and qinggong archetypes)

Highlights:
- gains +1 Wisdom (now 18)
- ki pool 6 ki/day
- replace slowfall with barkskin ki power
- skills: acrobatics +1, perception +1, sense motive +2, sleight of hand +1

Full details on charsheet

I'm afraid I have to be picky here, but you can't combine monk of the empty hand with qinggong monk since they both replace the diamond body power (empty hand replacing it with ki weapons and qinggong replacing it with whatever ki power you choose at 11th level). Since we were picky about this with a 20th level power for Aago in Jade Regent, I feel it's only fair to be picky here. Since Mahjik has been monk of the empty hand since the start, it means that you can't add on qinggong monk. All it means is you lose barkskin and gain slow fall.

Otherwise, everything with Mahjik looks good.


Navior wrote:
Otherwise, everything with Mahjik looks good.

Actually, just noticed you forgot to updated his BAB (although CMB and attack bonuses are updated) and his CMD, which should now be 22 (+1 from BAB increase, +1 from Wis increase, and +1 from his Monk AC bonus). :)


Makoa looks good, except you seem to have missed your new totem transformation ability gained as a 2nd-level wolf shaman. (You also forgot to change druid level to say 2.)


Male Human Traveler / 8

I was thinking that about Weapon Finesse too. I'll give some thought to a replacement feat and let you know.

I've always been bad about updating my equipment list, though I do think I missed some of the results of Urza's identification. I'll get that updated too.


And finally, Urza looks good, except it appears you accidentally gave him two favoured class bonuses. You gave him an extra skill point and also boosted his "flame affinity" to +1.5 from +1.

At last, the party has 2nd-level spells!

Grand Lodge

I'll correct that.
Note that I also moved his stat bump from str to cha.


Just a reminder to Lorekeeper in case you missed it above. :)

Navior wrote:
Mahjik the Flink wrote:

shishishishi :D

Mahjik's now level 4 monk (empty hand and qinggong archetypes)

Highlights:
- gains +1 Wisdom (now 18)
- ki pool 6 ki/day
- replace slowfall with barkskin ki power
- skills: acrobatics +1, perception +1, sense motive +2, sleight of hand +1

Full details on charsheet

I'm afraid I have to be picky here, but you can't combine monk of the empty hand with qinggong monk since they both replace the diamond body power (empty hand replacing it with ki weapons and qinggong replacing it with whatever ki power you choose at 11th level). Since we were picky about this with a 20th level power for Aago in Jade Regent, I feel it's only fair to be picky here. Since Mahjik has been monk of the empty hand since the start, it means that you can't add on qinggong monk. All it means is you lose barkskin and gain slow fall.

Otherwise, everything with Mahjik looks good.


Quote:
I'm afraid I have to be picky here, but you can't combine monk of the empty hand with qinggong monk since they both replace the diamond body power (empty hand replacing it with ki weapons and qinggong replacing it with whatever ki power you choose at 11th level). Since we were picky about this with a 20th level power for Aago in Jade Regent, I feel it's only fair to be picky here. Since Mahjik has been monk of the empty hand since the start, it means that you can't add on qinggong monk. All it means is you lose barkskin and gain slow fall.

hmmm... I think we're reading the archetype very differently then. Qinggong doesn't replace all class powers listed, it just makes those class powers eligible for replacement. Mahjik cannot replace the diamond body power (and be a qinggong) but he can replace any other unaffected class power. At least every discussion I've seen on it agrees that qinggong can essentially archetype with every other archetype (with possible exception of the martial artist).

If its not possible any other way, is it okay to strip Mahjik of empty hands then?


LoreKeeper wrote:

hmmm... I think we're reading the archetype very differently then. Qinggong doesn't replace all class powers listed, it just makes those class powers eligible for replacement. Mahjik cannot replace the diamond body power (and be a qinggong) but he can replace any other unaffected class power. At least every discussion I've seen on it agrees that qinggong can essentially archetype with every other archetype (with possible exception of the martial artist).

If its not possible any other way, is it okay to strip Mahjik of empty hands then?

I'm going to have to say no to stripping Mahjik of the empty hands archetype, as it's a well-established part of him. He's made lots of use of the improvised weapons ability.

As for the qinggong archetype, we do seem to be reading it differently. Diamond body is listed under 12th-level powers that the qinggong can choose from, which to me would seem to indicate they don't get the choice to keep it at 11th. Also, if they get the choice not to change an ability, that opens the possibility of a qinggong monk that doesn't change anything and thus isn't a qinggong monk (not a major problem really, just a humorous one). However, I do see how one might read it otherwise. I haven't read any discussions on the archetype, so I'm not familiar with the general consensus, but I really don't like the idea that it can mix with virtually any other archetype. It basically creates the ability to just add the qinggong archetype any time you feel like it, when an archetype (in my mind at least) is supposed to be something you have right from the start. I have to admit I'm not fond of mixing archetypes at all, but that's mainly because it creates more work for me trying to keep track of all the changes! :)

At any rate, while I'm inclined to say no to allowing the mix, I'm of mixed enough mind to listen to opinions otherwise. What does everyone else think?

Shadow Lodge

Navior wrote:
It basically creates the ability to just add the qinggong archetype any time you feel like it, when an archetype (in my mind at least) is supposed to be something you have right from the start.

See, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I understand what your saying, I do, but since some archtypes don't change at 1st level, it would be impossible to be them from the start. Makoa couldn't have been an Invulnerable Rager at first level, for example, because IR doesn't change any of the level one barbarian class features.

I have seen it mentioned on the boards that the Qinqqong monk should replace the Core Monk. I thought that was a rather interesting idea myself.


With the caveat that I am utterly unfamiliar with monks, just reading the archetype, I see:

Quote:
Ki Power: A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.

and

Quote:
Monk Abilities: Some ki powers are standard monk abilities. Even if a qinggong monk selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability, she can select that monk ability later as one of her ki powers.

...which sounds like if the monk exchanges a power at one level, he can still pick it up at a later level.

In addition, the messageboard discussion I've glanced at idly on the subject does seem to assume that qinggong monk is basically a "design-your-own-monk" class. I'm not a fan of modular classes where you build as you go, but that seems to be the consensus.

Ultimate Magic does specifically call out the archetype as "the high-fantasy qinggong monk archetype," which sounds to me like it's more subject to DM-approval than a "basic vanilla" archetype would be. The fluff also reads:

Quote:
Some achieve their power over ki through extreme discipline, while others attain this power by intentionally or accidentally ingesting rare herbs or strange mystical fruits, and a few are gifted these abilities by a dying qinggong master.

...which sounds like Mahjik might have to come up with some backstory as to how these powers suddenly manifest. Then again, we are on a secluded island with Aycenia's grove, and he's been eating all kinds of strange fruits and herbs.


True, there are a lot of archetypes that don't change any 1st-level abilities. I still always looked at those as being something the character has from the start; they just haven't affected the character yet. But perhaps that's a failing on my part. I suppose it's not really any different than multiclassing into a new class. So a fair point.

However, I'm still not entirely convinced that a qinggong monk should have the option not to switch out the listed abilities, which is really the main difficulty here. If it has to switch out those abilities, then Mahjik can't be a qinggong monk (because it overlaps with empty hand monk), but if a qinggong monk doesn't have to switch out the abilities, then Mahjik can be one.

I'm going to seek out some of these discussions about the archetype to see what points people have made. Alas, it undoubtedly means sifting through all the vitriolic arguments about how monks suck/don't suck. I don't particularly relish the idea, but oh well... :)

Edit: Ninja'd by Joana with some good points.


Navior wrote:

I'm going to seek out some of these discussions about the archetype to see what points people have made. Alas, it undoubtedly means sifting through all the vitriolic arguments about how monks suck/don't suck. I don't particularly relish the idea, but oh well... :)

Here and here. No dev input; nothing in the FAQ.

Oh, and here. And here.

Shadow Lodge

See, the main debate so far is over the word "can", as shown by Joana's post.

Just wait until you see the arguments over whether or not they can give up Slow Fall every time they get it! ;)


Meh, I don't like it. It feels like a movement toward a "build-your-own-class" paradigm a la the Advanced Race Guide rules. But it does seem to be RAW.


Mahjik will be able to live without qinggong; though as Joana pointed out, the consensus on the boards is that qinggong is a make-a-monk archetype. It's obviously a strong archetype as it gives a lot of options to monk characters - and yes, the way I read it it is possible to be a qinggong monk without ever changing any powers.

I always viewed it as the designers way of adding ki powers after Core was released. Essentially these ki powers are like rogue talents and rage powers, which I do like.

Admittedly, I'm not going into it for flavor: in the case of Mahjik I'm primarily interested in giving him another layer of defense and freeing up an item. There are at least 3 major neck-slot items that are important for monk characters: amulet of mighty fists, amulet of natural armor and necklace of ki serenity. With the qinggong archetype's barkskin ki power frees up an important option, making the class considerably more viable.


Oh, I forgot to mention, the way you (Navior) reads the qinggong it cannot combo with any monk archetype at all.


Joana wrote:
Navior wrote:

I'm going to seek out some of these discussions about the archetype to see what points people have made. Alas, it undoubtedly means sifting through all the vitriolic arguments about how monks suck/don't suck. I don't particularly relish the idea, but oh well... :)

Here and here. No dev input; nothing in the FAQ.

Oh, and here. And here.

Thanks, Joana! That saved me some work. I've skimmed through all four of those and gotten a feel for what people think.

Most of the arguing seems to be over the word can, which can (heh) be interpreted a couple of ways. However, I think the clincher is the part Joana quoted above: "Even if" That does seem to indicate that my interpretation is not the intended interpretation.

I still don't really like it a great deal. Like Joana, I'm not fond of the "build your own class as you go" style of character (not in this game at any rate; it works fine in classless games). However, it does seem to be the rules as written. Of course, I do sometimes change the rules as written (as is the prerogative of any game); however, I don't see a need to change them here. Allowing Mahjik to take qinggong monk isn't going to disrupt the game a great deal. And it does allow me to see how it works in actual play so I can decide whether to allow it in future.

So be warned, Lorekeeper: Mahjik holds in his hands the power to determine whether I ban qinggong monk entirely from future games! :)

Lorekeeper wrote:
Oh, I forgot to mention, the way you (Navior) reads the qinggong it cannot combo with any monk archetype at all.

Honestly, that doesn't bother me one bit. As I said, I'm not fond of combining archetypes in the first place. :)


If you think he's being an abusive min/maxer, you can always make him really wish he'd kept Slow Fall. Throw him off a bunch of cliffs and such. ;)


Male Human Traveler / 8

I'm with Joana and Navior in that I don't like the whole build-your-own-class kind of concept for Pathfinder. As a DM I'd only really allow such a thing at character creation, wherein I and the player would plot out the path of the character from 1st level to 20th (or however far I anticipate the characters will go). That way you can at least rule out a bunch of surprises.

I'm inclined to agree, however, that that is how the designers intended the archetype to be used. It's strange, however, that they haven't made a flat-out statement to resolve the arguments. I wonder if they just threw it out there to see how people handle it. :)

Those monks, always causing trouble.


Joana wrote:
If you think he's being an abusive min/maxer, you can always make him really wish he'd kept Slow Fall. Throw him off a bunch of cliffs and such. ;)

Yes, I think I'll start modifying the maps in Racing to Ruin to include a whole lot of cliffs and pit traps. Bwahahahaha! ;)


Atleast I know that a ring of featherfall will come in handy :D

Quote:
So be warned, Lorekeeper: Mahjik holds in his hands the power to determine whether I ban qinggong monk entirely from future games! :)

Oh noes! I - must - not - cave - under - the - pressure... aarrrr

I can already tell you my experience with the monk and ki powers: spending ki is expensive! Mahjik is heavy on the Wisdom, so he currently has 6 a day. It is easy to spend those in 6 rounds or less.

My "early day" usage of ki as a pseudo-haste for an extra attack has been almost entirely replaced with using ki on defense and for utility purposes exclusively.


Male Human Traveler / 8

Hey Navior,

I'm going to replace Weapon Finesse with Dodge. Sorry to be so late with that, I kept forgetting to take a look at my feat options after work. Character sheet will be updated in my profile shortly.


Wander Weir wrote:

Hey Navior,

I'm going to replace Weapon Finesse with Dodge. Sorry to be so late with that, I kept forgetting to take a look at my feat options after work. Character sheet will be updated in my profile shortly.

No problem!


Navior wrote:
Wander Weir wrote:

Hey Navior,

I'm going to replace Weapon Finesse with Dodge. Sorry to be so late with that, I kept forgetting to take a look at my feat options after work. Character sheet will be updated in my profile shortly.

No problem!

Dodge affects CMD too, so that should go up to 21.


Male Human Traveler / 8
Navior wrote:
Navior wrote:
Wander Weir wrote:

Hey Navior,

I'm going to replace Weapon Finesse with Dodge. Sorry to be so late with that, I kept forgetting to take a look at my feat options after work. Character sheet will be updated in my profile shortly.

No problem!
Dodge affects CMD too, so that should go up to 21.

Oops, that's right. Adjustment made. Thanks for catching that!


Lorenz Aeryson wrote:


As Lorenz walks into the village carrying the results of his labors, he suddenly remembers that he had a bag of snakes in his pack for Alton. "Er, excuse me," he mutters and runs off to where he'd left his pack in the lighthouse tower.

Very amused. Only Lorenz could forget a bag full of snakes! :D

Grand Lodge

Navior:
I was wondering if you wouldn't mind Urza switching to using the Words of Power rules? When I read (scanned) through them originally, I figured I'd never use them, but after listening to some podcasts and reading a few blogs, I think I'd like to give them a try.
After looking over Urza's spells, I don't think it would change him much. The biggest loss would be the lengthy protection of Mage Armor. I don't quite yet know what would be picked up in its place yet, so I can't say much about that.


Joana,

I just noticed that you've separated a different bonus for Disable Device for traps. I've always treated the trapfinding bonus as applying to all Disable Device checks, as the text only specifies a separation for Perception checks. So I would think that Douena should have +15 to all Disable Device checks.

Core Rulebook wrote:
A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1).


Dax:
I've never actually bothered reading the words of power rules thoroughly. I've just skimmed them, so I don't know exactly how they work. I like the idea of them, but if I were to use them, I'd want to switch all magic over to them, which would be more work than I'm up to doing at the moment.


So I presume that lovely version of Desna's favored weapon is Medium and not Small? :P

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