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I just played my first level 5 scenario.
Three out of the Four players made their own characters (the 4th created a pregen).
All three of us pointed out that we all actually enjoyed creating the level 5 character and all had created a character that could NOT have been created in PF1.
I created a bard who could do the Dr Doolittle thing and talk to the animals (Gnome with Animal Whisperer)
Another player created a Gish character (Wizard with fighter multiclass). Arguably overpowered but that is another matter :-)
The third played a goblin monk with ridiculous movement.
Just thought I'd make a postive comment in the flood of negativity :-)
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It does seem like 5th is the ideal level for "hitting concept" in this edition, either 3rd or 5th level is likely to become by prefered starting point for long-term campaigns.
Certainly more fun than creating 1st level characters. :)
I've been working on a 5th level Cleric/support NPC for my players. Human, with the Warrior background, worshipping Pharasma with the Healing domain. Their primary function is healer (Healing Hands), with repair/upgrade of the party's gear through Crafting (Expert Crafting, Quick Repair and Magical Crafting) as their secondary.
Compared to PF1, there's less choices available for character customisation, but there's just as many dilemmas with feat choices. Some of the ones I ended up surprised me, but they worked in well with my background (Martial Weapon Proficiency) and the Emblazon Symbol class feat lets me wade into battle with pick and shield, casting spells whenever AoO aren't likely. Picked up Produce Flame as my Adapted Spell Ancestry feat for short ranged combat and Trick Magic Item with Arcana, Nature and Religion skills to maximise my chances of using other classes magic items.
Looking forward to testing it out, so I can see the difference between theory and practice.
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Just thought I'd make a postive comment in the flood of negativity :-)
I think part of the negativity problem does come down to levels, in fact. A lot of people (myself included) are still mostly focused on 1st and 2nd level play and haven't really done much more than do a first-pass reading of the higher-level stuff, and from what I've seen I think that 1st level play is where the system is at its weakest. Everything is just less impressive, less varied, and less interesting than 1st level play was in PF1. But as more and better options become available at higher levels, a lot of those problems go away.
Just thought I'd make a postive comment in the flood of negativity :-)I think part of the negativity problem does come down to levels, in fact. A lot of people (myself included) are still mostly focused on 1st and 2nd level play and haven't really done much more than do a first-pass reading of the higher-level stuff, and from what I've seen I think that 1st level play is where the system is at its weakest. Everything is just less impressive, less varied, and less interesting than 1st level play was in PF1. But as more and better options become available at higher levels, a lot of those problems go away.
And new problems could rear their heads. Such as OP's side comment about the Gesh being overpowered.
But I'll not cloud another topic with any more negativity than this.
Such as OP's side comment about the Gesh being overpowered.
I'm not surprised. The fact that BAB, ASF, and AOO's are now gone mean casters have nothing stopping them from entering melee and being good at it. The 3-action system is also a huge boon for casters, essentially making everyone a magus since you can cast and attack on the same turn, which is massively advantageous since the -5 penalty for iteratives are a lot more painful in PF2 since it's also killing your chance of a crit.
I can sort of understand why changing grip is no longer a free action, as a way of keeping gishes out of 2-handed weapons (which they had no reason not to wield in PF1), even if that change really irritates me otherwise.
Just thought I'd make a postive comment in the flood of negativity :-)I think part of the negativity problem does come down to levels, in fact. A lot of people (myself included) are still mostly focused on 1st and 2nd level play and haven't really done much more than do a first-pass reading of the higher-level stuff, and from what I've seen I think that 1st level play is where the system is at its weakest. Everything is just less impressive, less varied, and less interesting than 1st level play was in PF1. But as more and better options become available at higher levels, a lot of those problems go away.
I actually do find that curious - I find 1st-level PF1 play to be incredibly uninteresting. Martials have one attack and are incredibly dependent on luck to not die thanks to HP being very close to damage, casters have very few spells and get stuck with crossbows very quickly, most options to differentiate you don't really exist...
I'd like to hear why you think PF2 level-1 play is less varied and interesting than PF1 level-1 play.
I actually do find that curious - I find 1st-level PF1 play to be incredibly uninteresting. Martials have one attack and are incredibly dependent on luck to not die thanks to HP being very close to damage, casters have very few spells and get stuck with crossbows very quickly, most options to differentiate you don't really exist...
I'd like to hear why you think PF2 level-1 play is less varied and interesting than PF1 level-1 play.
The answer is magic. Literally, drop lots of magical loot on your party. Low-level consumables are cheap and won't even come close to breaking the WBL bank. Potions and alchemical items work for martials, and scrolls and wands an help keep casters engaged and not just shooting crossbow bolts.
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The answer is magic. Literally, drop lots of magical loot on your party. Low-level consumables are cheap and won't even come close to breaking the WBL bank. Potions and alchemical items work for martials, and scrolls and wands an help keep casters engaged and not just shooting crossbow bolts.I actually do find that curious - I find 1st-level PF1 play to be incredibly uninteresting. Martials have one attack and are incredibly dependent on luck to not die thanks to HP being very close to damage, casters have very few spells and get stuck with crossbows very quickly, most options to differentiate you don't really exist...
I'd like to hear why you think PF2 level-1 play is less varied and interesting than PF1 level-1 play.
Oh you mean how it was supposed to be in PF1 but everyone mathed out things to the point that people weigh the gold cost of 1d8+1 HP?
Bitterness aside, all that magical loot(Some of which isn't actually magic) either gets tossed in the bag or vendor trashed to jump start the actual item they want. And they're still in GOLD in the case of some of them.
Heck the Trinkets are worse at times but this is about "Building a character up to 5 is Fun". And I'd go on a posting but OP wants to be posistive so I'll leave it at that.
I'll go over to maybe game mastery about the issues of WBL that aren't fixed still.
I've made 2 higher level chars so far. While making a 1st lvl one takes me about 15-20 mins, they took me about double that because I hadn't read all the classes yet. It was pretty fun, I hope I get to play all of them!
Were I stalled a bit was equipment. That took like an hour in itself. The treasure section in the pdf not having its items indexed was a pain in the ass; that and all the little rules about quality, magic, and items being scattered everywhere. Not to mention spells.
Conclusion: making higher level characters is fun, fast and easy, but the organization in the pdf makes dressing them and choosing spells tedious. That can be fixed though.
The answer is magic. Literally, drop lots of magical loot on your party. Low-level consumables are cheap and won't even come close to breaking the WBL bank. Potions and alchemical items work for martials, and scrolls and wands an help keep casters engaged and not just shooting crossbow bolts.I actually do find that curious - I find 1st-level PF1 play to be incredibly uninteresting. Martials have one attack and are incredibly dependent on luck to not die thanks to HP being very close to damage, casters have very few spells and get stuck with crossbows very quickly, most options to differentiate you don't really exist...
I'd like to hear why you think PF2 level-1 play is less varied and interesting than PF1 level-1 play.
I am stealing this idea! Or, I am stealing it for one campaign and not for another and comparing how it goes.
I think one could make the argument that it is still a problem that level 1 or 2 characters don't have much to do. On the other hand. being able to give out more consumables to solve problems like that is the exact sort of system mastery I want to obtain for 2e someday. It's not like I don't use my knowledge of PF1e to smooth out the rough parts of that system.
being able to give out more consumables to solve problems like that is the exact sort of system mastery I want to obtain for 2e someday
Unfortunately it's not a matter of system mastery, since resonance is just a hard "nope" in this respect. This has been my primary objection to resonance from the beginning. I come from a PF1 table where 1st level characters using 10 or more consumables in a single adventuring day isn't unheardof.
In the interest of saying something positive, I am genuinely pleased with how variable, strong, and interesting PCs of a variety of classes can be once they get 4-6 class feats under their belt. A lot of PF1 classes sort of ran out of steam once they got their basic combat suite under their belt, but in this system that doesn't seem to happen until very late if at all for PF2 classes.
For the playtest, the very early levels seem like something I'm going to want to get through as fast as possible, but level 5+ seem great.
In the interest of saying something positive, I am genuinely pleased with how variable, strong, and interesting PCs of a variety of classes can be once they get 4-6 class feats under their belt. A lot of PF1 classes sort of ran out of steam once they got their basic combat suite under their belt, but in this system that doesn't seem to happen until very late if at all for PF2 classes.
For the playtest, the very early levels seem like something I'm going to want to get through as fast as possible, but level 5+ seem great.
I have yet to get to that point myself.
I've just been making a few different characters and leveling them up to get a feel for the progression rules and running mini demo fights for the combat rules.
I kinda agree. You kinda need to hit level 5(6 for some classes) before it gets rolling. But at the same time, I'm not a person that can sit there for X sessions waiting to get to a level to be 'fun'.
Heck I looking into taking Dedications more not out of "This is good for my build/character" but just to have something ELSE to do on the climb up.
I guess what I'm saying is that the story/GM better be able to hold my attention better than the system until you get to the 'fun' point.
I feel that the Ancestry and Class feats should be skewed towards 1-5 range where they help define the character, while the general/skill feats shifted more towards 15-20 range where they allow to do something awesome once you have all your proficiencies up.
Alternatively, each proficiency increase should instantly bring a related feat with it. Right now it's pretty unrewarding to simply get a +1 and wait until the next level when you can actually take a feat to turn it into something new your character can do.