Monster Mashup - Master Thread

Game Master CaveToad

Can you rescue your 'beloved' mentor from the forces of evil? Will you make your way in a world that may not trust you, understand you, or want you? Will you stay true to the path Goodwin set out for you, or revert back to your former life?


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Here is Goliath I would say new an improved but with the shitty errata he is worse off for sure. Oh well. Just have to wait for the cheese dip to pick up warlord.

Any recommendations for a feat other then step up?

Goliath:

Goliath
Swashbuckler 1
Cleric of Ragathiel 1
Monk 1 (Qinggong)
Favored Class: Warlord
LG: A promise is a promise. He does not enter deal lightly and he respects the laws of society that he is not part of. He seeks to do good and help those not able to help themselves and to thwart evil and become a valorous knight.
Male Ogre
-Advanced Strength 4RP, Hardy 3RP
Goliath has been inspired by stories of daring Knights and Paladins. He worships Ragathiel taking to heart his words of Duty and Chivalry. His word is his bond and he seeks to do good to honor the teachings of Goodwin and Ragathiel. He aspires to be a daring knight that will inspire stories and songs.Init: +9; Perception +8 Darkvision 60’ Lowlightvision
Size: 10’, Reach: 10’
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 16, flat-footed 15
(+2Natural, +3Dex, +4Wis, -1size)
HP: 19
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +6
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Offense
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Speed 30ft

Melee:
Unarmed Strike +8 1d6+8

Melee:
BastardSword +10 2d8+12 (+12str)
(Str+8, WF+1, MW+1, BA+1, Size-1)

Melee Flurry:
BastardSword +8/+8 2d8+8/2d8+8 (+8str)
(Str+8, WF+1, MW+1, BA+1, Size -1, Flurry -2)

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Statistics
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Str 26, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 16
Base Atk +1; CMB +10; CMD: 26 (10+8str,3dex,4wis,1size)

Feats:

Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus Bastard Sword, Crusaders Flurry, Improved Initiative, Extra Panache, Slashing Grace, Step Up

Skills: 5 Ranks
Acrobatics +7 (1rank,3class,3dex)
Perception +8 (1rank,3class,4wis)
Sense Motive +8 (1rank,3class,4wis)
Diplomacy +7 (1rank,3class,3cha)
K. Religion +4 (1rank,3class)

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Special Abilities
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(Su)Channel Energy 6/6
(Ex)Panache 5/5
(Ex)AC Bonus
(Ex)Flurry of Blows
(Ex)Opportune Parry/Riposte
(Ex)Daring-Do
(Ex)Dodging Panache
(Sp)Inspiring Word 7/7 +2 morale to attack, skill, saves for 3 rounds
(Su)Destructive Smite 7/7 +1 morale to damage 3 rounds

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Traits:
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Fates Favored
Reactionary
Community Minded

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Languages:
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Common, Giant

--------------------------------------------
Spells: Domains: Nobility, Destruction
--------------------------------------------
Cleric Cast: 1st: 2+Domain
Cleric Prepared:
0: Mending, Guidance, Create Water
1st: Shield of Faith, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor(Domain)

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Gear:
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MW Large BastardSword (Normal 1d10, Large 2d8)

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Carrying Capacity
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Light: 612lbs or less / Medium: 613-1226lbs / Heavy: 1226-1840

Appearance/Goals:

Goliath

Goliath was born seventh son of the seventh son in the line of the chief of the tribe. He was marked by his pale skin. He physique was far superior to the others his age. He was trained well and soon became one of the greatest warriors of the tribe. He showed great loyalty and duty to the tribe doing whatever that was asked of him, but he didn’t posses the bloodlust that others in his tribe did. He would punish those that stood before him with his destructive power but only if it was for the betterment of the tribe. We warned against the reckless destruction and evil acts. It was this the got the attention of Goodwin. The Archmage saw great potential in Goliath. His heart was pure and he possessed the great power to throw down any evil that would stand before him. He had a spirit of leadership and community striving to better those around him wishing all to prosper and not fear the persecution of evil. For this Goodwin took the young ogre from his tribe. He explained to him why he was selcected. Goliath was honored. Time passed, Goodwin shared stories of wars and battles of courageous knights and paladins. Goliath was spiritual and asked many questions of faith and purpose that these men had. Goodwin would lake of deity’s and the powers they granted to their divine warriors. It was the General of Vengeance Ragathiel that stood out among the others. His sense of duty and chivalry inspired Goliath to take up the blade in his name.

With the training of Goodwin and the divine abilities of Ragathiel Goliath became a great warrior among the champions. He worked with his brothers and sisters honing each of their abilities and inspiring them to do better in combat. His natural ability to lead made them come together. The years of training only strengthened their bond and the effectiveness of their abilities. He now finds himself with a group of his siblings of Goodwin seeking to find their master. He hopes to keep them focused on their duty to follow their masters teachings.


You need weapon finesse for slashing grace. Also keep in mine slashing grace doesn't work with flurry of blows.


Well you don't have power attack and we faced enemies with over 50 HP already at level 1... I see you didn't pick practiced initiator for trait so Additional traits is a good option. Your favored class is still listed as warlord. I'm thinking to pick up blind fight myself at some point, it doesn't give a lot of power, but it'll be great if it is needed.

@CaveToad: He got swashbuckler finesse instead of weapon finesse. How doesn't slashing grace work with flurry?


I will be reviewing Gon Barren, Goliath and Ctha'at-Sebek over the next day or so. There is one slot at table 2 that someone will fill.

I would like an alias and full crunch to make my review easiest. Some things that help make the review process easier:

1) put your original stat rolls and a link to the post in a spoiler in your crunch.
2) show bonuses and penalties for stats, show full math for everything, saves, hp, ac, attack routines, skills, etc.
3) list the source of your feat ( bonus, level 1, etc )
4) show full stats and math for any familiars, companions etc
5) dont forget your starting hero point and to list a theme.
6) make sure your favored class is declared and the bonus is used
7) gear, encumbrance, and a treasure bookkeeping spoiler is needed


Yep swashbuckler finesse instead of weapon finesse. CaveToad is right though about it not working while flurrying, but I don't need it too so if I crit or drop someone while flurrying I don't get panache back. No worries.

Additional traits will be taken before the cheese dip. Just was going to hold off for now. Not too worried about not having power attack at level 1. He will normally use Inspiring word on himself and move on round 1. This will give him a +12 parry and riposte if successful. This will make his flurry round at +10/+10, If they are medium size and didn't have reach and I went first then I have buffed and attacked them twice on round 1 with AoO, and then a riposte both at +12. So it's a big assumption but lets say this happens and the flurry attacks hit. He will be 2H the weapon on round 1 so that is 2d8+12, 2d8+12, then 2d8+8, 2d8+8. So 58 average damage. Power attack will make the build but it's more important to hit more. If I was 2H all the time then yeah it would have made the cut. I was thinking of stand still for a feat to keep people from charging pass me.

Correcting copy past errors now :)


Alright everything updated and ready to go.

CaveToad did I do HP right for toughness at level 1? I had 5con + 3toughness +1level for 9x1.5 is 13.5 + 1d10 for 23. Just making sure. Thank you. Hope to kick but with you guys.

So didn't have the extra feat to spare. I had picked up weapon focus with the Warlord bonus, so now it took the last spot.


Your damage calculation assumes the enemies are stupid enough to try to attack the large guy with reach and riposte. Of course it's going to happen some amount of the time, but some amount of the time you'll have to actually move to the enemy in order to attack, then you'll get neither AoO nor parry. Stand still seems kind of cool in that it'll stop the enemy from attacking completely if they don't have reach.

Since it seems like one of you will be joining our group (replacing Cardau) you could look at our party to look for synergies/unfulfilled roles. I assume you all pretty much have locked in flavor at this point, but it wouldn't hurt if that fit as well. The party is Xanya, Kiki, Quassine and Simon already, check link to aliases from players under table 2 (for example under my campaign tab).

Where does the *1,5 in your HP calculation come from? 10(hd)+5(con)+3(thoughness)+(fc)=19.

Community minded is potentially really cool combined with opportunistic gambler on Xanya. Does the trait work for yourself as well?

I believe you've forgotten to list stunning fist and improved unarmed strike.


:), the 1.5 is what happens when your making multiple guys with different recruitment and character building and you get confused b/c your dumb :), Changing back to 19.

My Theme is the warrior of virtue, sort of one that has been inspired by the stories and seeks to become a legendary swordsman, but not because of how much damage he does, that gets boring, but out of his skill and different abilities he can pull off while fighting. I will look at the group make up though.

Yeah the damage has a lot of if's in it just a possible outcome. Power attack just isn't that big of deal until around level 4 when it scales up. Then with warlord it will get more use when I wont' always be full attacking and using the weapon in 2H a little more often :)


@Xanya, so your the heavy hitter. Nice charge damage. My first idea was mounted as well. Since you plan on warlord, I may do something else, though it will still be good if we both do, assuming you do the Encouraging roar, I could go with the sunder and bull rush stuff. Will have to plan for the future. So a LN, CN, CG, NG. So two of you a little more free doing what you want or desire. Only one Lawful so not the best at upholding their word and deals. Goliath would hope to help in that regard. Seems like a fun group. Does the bard have any plans to retrain flag bearer. Its a nice buff but once the warlord comes into play not so much.


I'm not sure I'll be able to fit in encouraging roar actually, I might pickup defending the pride instead. That along with warning roar, momentum crush, pride movement, indomitable mount and gambits will give me plenty to do with my swift actions. Flagbearer will be nice for when we don't have encouraging roar active (I at least am planning on getting a coragous weapon eventually). I think Kiki is planning to go Warlord from level 5 as well, though not sure what abilties she is picking up.


Hey, Goliath, could I ask why you took Slashing Grave, when your Strength is 10 points higher?

Doesn't seem like a good idea to cripple yourself like ghat, unless I'm missing something?


If it's just to enable the 'Piercing Weapon' requirement of several abilities, check out Weapon Versatility.


Nice, weapon Versatility is way better and it will still work with flurry, Thanks Hotaru. I don't think I have ever read that one or just glanced over it. Switching now.

@Xanya, yeah with flag bearer or someone throwing out a constant morale bonus courageous is a no brainier for all, you get the added benefit of rage :)


I know Unchained Monks supposedly can't have archetypes, but I would at least like to make an argument for Weapon Adept.

As I said, its important both mechanically and flavor-wise for my concept.

Somebody asked if Perfect Strike was That good and for this character, the answer is yes. Being so incredibly trained and sure of your skill with one specific weapon that you you lessen the chance greatly of missing is the key aspect of this character.

He used to be incredibly chaotic, being a former Bloodrager(possibly more) of Rovagug, just destroying things for the sake of destruction and the joy he got in smashing stuff.

Then our benefactor found him, seeing within him great potential, and took him under his wing. Of course, such massive chaos needed to be restrained and channeled constructively, so Goodwin set him on the path of the Monk. While still a bloodrager, he had favored the warhammer, so Weapon Adept came naturally to him, though he has opted for a weapon that he is more racially inclined towards, the nine-section whip.

The archetype gives up Stunning Fist, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Timeless Body and Perfect Self, all of which are gained via the normal progression of both the Monk and its Unchained counterpart.


If weapon Adept is that important then why not take the archetype. If it matters that much fluff wise then go for it. I'm not using unchained monk. I don't think the flurry is that good. In the first few levels it is pretty nice but in a high powered game like this overcoming the -2 to attack is not a big deal. Or you could pick it up through Kensai magus or just wait till what I think its BAB+6 or something right?


I'd like to stick fast to the no archetypes rule for unchained monks. It becomes a slippery slope once I make exceptions. Plus with 3 class gestalt, you can get your BAB and better HD elsewhere, so the impetus to take unchained monk is not as critical. Yeah the flurry is worse for old monk, but meh. Also I would point out the perfect strikes special section wording: " A monk may attempt an perfect strike attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk."

As an aside in case it needs clarifying:

The other classes of your gestalt combo do not count as other classes for purposes of this wording. For example if you are 4th level monk/blah/blah, you don't get to use it an extra two times a day. Twin mind class levels also do not apply, nor do cheese dip classes.

For everyone in general:
There are other powers, feats etc in the game like this, and I believe I have made note of these rare situations before. The extra bonuses class levels from these do not count for this type of thing. This has come up in cases of Sneak Attack or Animal Companion levels stacking from multiple sources.

The reasoning is Cheese Dip and Twin Mind levels as well as gestalt are all taken in parallel, not in addition to. If you were 10th level gestalt with three 10th level classes, a 2nd level cheese dip #1, a 1st level cheese dip #2, and say 3 twin mind classes of levels 5, 3 and 1, you are still a level 10 character. You don't get to count 42 class levels for abilities that call out this sort of thing.


So, does or doesn't people cheese dipping into the +2 initiator thing work the way they think it does? Since HD doesn't carry over between 'trees' or to dips, I'd think it wouldn't affect that, either.

Also, original monk's flurry still uses your full BAB, is there some sort of stipulation I'm not seeing that makes new flurry better than old?


New flurry doesn't get -2 from twfing, though you have to wait until level 11 to gain your next attack (though that is also at full bab). Just read the new rules on the pfsrd, it's easier than me paraphrasing. It's quite different.


Hotaru of the Society wrote:

So, does or doesn't people cheese dipping into the +2 initiator thing work the way they think it does? Since HD doesn't carry over between 'trees' or to dips, I'd think it wouldn't affect that, either.

Also, original monk's flurry still uses your full BAB, is there some sort of stipulation I'm not seeing that makes new flurry better than old?

I did start to ponder that after I was writing my post and was starting to rethink that that also fell into the same category, so I might need to review the wording and tweak it a bit as well. The practiced initiator is really meant for multiclass, and when used in a single column multiclass scenario it makes more sense. Inside a cheese dip, which, true, should be self contained and exclusive it makes less sense. At most it probably should just add 2 to your initiator level up to your HD, the problem is your initiator level is dependent on other classes, so the others should count in its calculation, but obviously not add all the individual gestalt classes or twin mind classes up individually. It probably should count your gestalt level ( basically character level) - the level of cheese dips for which PI is listed. I think Xanya said that he thought it might work this way originally.

I have to mull it over.


Why not just take the Perfect Strike feat at level 8?

Hotaru: traits apply to whichever of your trees you want.


:P CaveToad understands what I meant.

Sure, you can pick a trait that only affects that one tree. But that one tree is level 1. And it's supposed to be compartmentalized from my understanding.


I'd like to throw my own $.o2 on the 'cheese' dip issue.

What benefit is the cheese dip providing?

Some cantrips and a couple of first level spells if you select a caster. Which at the level we get that cheese dip, and considering action economy, provides a very small benefit.

No BAB, HD, skill points, or saves, kinda makes sense. I'll revisit this in a moment.

Few melee/ranged classes have something that is going to provide a solid benefit from one level, or five over all 20 levels.

The original rule did state that the cheese dip is tied to the primary class. I think many people forgot this part.

So stacking initiator levels may not always work if an initiator class isn't their primary.

What I saw the cheese dip for was meeting a prereq of a prc without sacrificing the primary class. I.e. I want to play an arcane archer, but don't want to loose three caster levels for the second class, I can cheese dip it, and at level 12, I'll meet the requirement and be able to get in 8 levels of arcane archer.

I could see allowing the cheese dip to be attached to any of the three primary classes. I would like to see it be able to provide sympathetic bonuses to which ever class it is tied to.

Otherwise, it's really like saying "you can play gestalt, but your second class line only progresses by one level every 4 levels."

This really limits what classes can effectively be used in the cheesedip position. The benefits will be very low level compared to the overall character level.

Back to the restriction on HD, saves, etc. Why not allow the cheese dip to potentially replace those values from the class it is attached to?

You should maintain that HD, base saves, BAB, and any class progression can't exceed the fastest progression available to any class.

(I.e. at 10th level it doesn't matter what a player did, their base saves can't exceed +7. Their BAB can't exceed 10, HD can't exceed 10, sneak attack dice can't exceed 5d6, etc.)


weapon versatility:

When I hold my crossbow gangsta style I get slash damage!

It's all in the wrist, that's how I got blunt damage with a whip.

This wooden club, carved from a tree stump, can do piercing damage when twisted a half turn clockwise. Great against vampires.


Fnord: if you feel that way, it's because you're not a natural-born min-maxer. The cheese dip system is actually incredibly powerful, and allows a lot more versatility in builds.

Example A: I'm probably going with archetyped fighter and monk as my two cheese dips. That nets me 9 extra feats, all of which I can use; by skipping pre-reqs on a few of those, I'm essentially increasing my feat space by +50%, while also gaining some nice fighter and monk bonuses.

Example B: That said, I'm really torn. I'd love to take Extra Rage Power with some of my feat spots (to get Pounce), but that requires me to have a regular rage, which requires a dip of two in Barbarian. Rake would give me additional free intimidate checks, while a single level in Wizard would turn my familiar into an unstoppable illusion machine, significantly increasing my action economy multiplier.

Example C: Oh dear lord, archetyped monks. A dip of two in MoMS lets anyone kill anything at level 8. Far Strike Monk is an absolute godsend for ranged characters, with the ridiculous number of prereq-free feats it gives.

Example D: Qualifying for feats. A single dip in Bloodrager lets an ordinary Barbarian/Sorcerer use Mad Magic without taking two rage powers. Inquisitors and Slayers qualify for ungodly powerful feats of death that are now open to everyone. Etc.


Yeah the point is to allow a few levels of extra junk to increase power even more without spoiling the purity of the base three gestalt classes. Am I insane for creating it? Sure but lots of people hopefully have fun exploring it. I am willing to allow lots of power, but I like to be fairly rigid about my rulesets around it. Plenty of ways to create ridiculous stuff within the somewhat shaky rules as it is.


Casters can take Kineticist as decent fallback Ranged attacks should they run out of spells and want to do more than cantrips.


I like to think of myself as more of an optimizer than a min-maxer.

What I was trying to get at is that those dips, are looking to only benefit utilization of a couple of classes. You gave four examples, two using monks, and 2 for barbarian.

Psychic warrior kineticist? I don't see how that would help a wizard.


Well, the best classes to take for those are, obviously, the ones that you'd look into dipping into in a normal game.

Of course, no one's going to dip one level of wizard, that's an insane idea except for very specific build. But everyone can benefit from the multitude of feats that both fighter and monk can offer, as well as several archetypes that many normal characters dip into anyway.

And I think he meant the Occult Adventures Kineticist, the one that throws around bolts of power and energy and stuff.


Why would you *want* to dip psychic warrior? (Not that you even can, because it's psionic). I'm saying there's *something* that benefits everyone.


Yes, Occult Adventures version.


From my view, the point of cheese dip is to get quick class features that don't scale off of level.
Paladin's Divine Grace, Stalker for a talent and simple manuevers, Rogue for Evasion, etc.
It becomes completely viable to drop two levels simply to get one feature that would round you out or allow some nice combo.

I don't really see what the issue is, except for running out of classes to level with all these gestalts!


The issue is clearly that he wants to take arcane archer without having to waste a ton of levels on other classes.

There are a bunch of classes that are extremely front loaded so a few levels give massive benefit. I'm taking warlord with my first cheesedip and any of the pow classes make insanely good dips due the way initiator levels and stances work. Dervish Defender gives int+2 AC constantly, which is ridiculous for a caster or anyone really (as long as you manage to pick up a few spiked gloves or have improved unarmed strike or just happen to use twf). Paladin is another good example allowing for Cha to saves, there is also an archtype which gives cha to AC while unarmored. Swashbuckler gives the amazing opporune riposte and parry (which sadly are disallowed from all wannabe swashbuckler stuff). Socerer 1->Dragon Disciple is a decent use of cheesedip since you still can use your normal skills, though it might be better to replace the sorcerer with something else. If you want to buff casting there are not as many options unfortunately, but there are still some. You ridiculed dipping wizard, but dipping into spellslinger lets you use money to get up to +5 to the DC of your spells. Heaven's oracle allows the awesome relevation awesome display which is really powerful for those kind of spells (metamagic increased color spray for example), there are a bunch of other relevations allowing for unique things as well. Duettist bard could give you a familiar to sing your praises all day, make it a figment and you'll never lose it. Dirge bard allows all your mind affecting stuff to affect undead, greatly increasing the versatility of those spells. A dip into one of the classes granting coven benefits will allow for some incredible increases to casterlevel with the appropriate following (mainly for out of combat stuff, but that can still be great, we do basically get leadership for free). Bloodrage with the feat Mad Magic still allows you to cast, so that's probably a viable dip in some cases boosting your con. 3 levels of magus and you can spellstrike with any class, kensai also gives you a heap of other bonuses.

I do agree that I do see why the new classes can't replace current values. For example if all the classes are d8 hd and you dip into a d12 class I feel like you should get +4 HP, since that is the best for any given level. Similar things with skills. If all my classes are maximum 4/level I want to be able to dip into rogue or ninja for +4.


Twin mind classes are allowed to replace values if the values in one of the classes for BAB, HP, saves or skills would surpass your main gestalt values. They don't replace immediately just because your HP die is now a d12 in first level twin mind does not mean it swap immediately, you would have to surpass your HP with a total in one of the columns of twin mind.

As noted cheese dips never allow this. They are meant to just be a side thing where you get a little extra oomph, I don't want to introduce all this math tweaking just for a few levels.

Also remember PrCs must be met within a column not cross column unless you are meeting skill or feat requirements. You cannot PrC in a cheese dip anyhow.


The advantage to dipping is usually always better and provides more options for martial's. If you see your character as a wizard and focus on casting dipping will aid in your survival, and give you a few options if you run out of spells, but not as much benefit as it does for others IMO. On Paladin are others planning on this. I am, but did CaveToad lift alignment restriction. I stayed LG b/c I saw myself going paladin as cheese dip. Just curious.

I'm surprised and maybe someone did on one of the tables, but no one went Orc Scared Witch Doctor/Barbarian/Alchemist to have a casting stat in the 30's at the start.


You can take Cavetoad's homebrew 'Chawful' trait once to ignore alignment restriction on one class.


And then only chaos/lawful axis. :)


cool. Thanks.


When does twin mind start?

Let's say it kicks in at level 5, and that you have d8's for your other classes. Each level of the twin psionic barb archetype has a d12.

At 5th level you have 5d8 = 40 hp

Every 2 twin levels of barbie is equal to 3 levels of your base classes.

That means that you would have to focus on the psionic archetyped barbie for 13 levels to exceed d8 HD, and at 13th level you would get an extra 4 HP.


Alias created! It was very hard to find a usable avatar though, unsurprisingly there are very few mind flayer avatars.

Let me know if I am missing anything.


fnord72 wrote:

When does twin mind start?

Let's say it kicks in at level 5, and that you have d8's for your other classes. Each level of the twin psionic barb archetype has a d12.

At 5th level you have 5d8 = 40 hp

Every 2 twin levels of barbie is equal to 3 levels of your base classes.

That means that you would have to focus on the psionic archetyped barbie for 13 levels to exceed d8 HD, and at 13th level you would get an extra 4 HP.

Your math seems off, but perhaps you are not considering how the XP accumulation of twin mind works. You do not level your twin mind levels at the same pace as when you level your regular class, it has its own identical pool of XP, so it will level faster actually since you are leveling up lower level class(es). It's like cheese dips on roids.

Example:

Let say you are level 5 with 10000 XP when you gain the twin mind power. You have 40 base hp as you mentioned with D8s.

You gain the twin mind power, and now lets say you acquire another 11000 XP. This puts you at 6th level in your regular class (21000XP) with 48 base hp, and quite close to 7th. However, 11000 XP also goes towards twin mind. 500 Xp to purchase your base class, psionic barbarian, and 10000 more to level it up to 5th level. Your hp are 60 already at this point, and would have been equal at 6th(4th) and can thus replace your gestalt HP base. You still have 500 Xp left over, and since you levelled a twin mind class to at least 3rd, you can choose another class, so you spend 500 XP to pick something else, which has its own column and its HP don't affect this example, unless say for example this class had d10s for HP, and you focused on this now, ending your barbarian progression, leaving it at 5th level. 35,000 XP later your main gestalt class has 56,000 XP and is level 9 with 72 base HP and its HP surpassed your barbarian again so its HP take over as your base. 35,000 XP devoted to your new twin mind fighter class puts you at 8th level with 80 base HP which supersedes both your base and previous twin mind class, so becomes your new base. You are 9th level gestalt, with a 2nd level cheese dip #1, a 1st level cheese dip #2 (cheese dips classes have no affect in HP), and your twin mind classes of Psionic Barbarian 5/Fighter 8.

Hopefully this makes sense.


If cheese dips counted towards HP/skill points, I bet someone would wind up wanting to replace, say, their 4th level HP/skill points with their cheese dip rather than their 1st level (or something similar. I haven't worked out the math of when you can do what or tried to come up with an example of this). And then book keeping would become even harder.


I think the real question that everyone is too afraid to ask is

What kind of cheese is the dip? American? Provologne? Swiss?
We'll only know when we get there.

God help us if its Brie.


I am reversing my previous decision/ruling on taking initiator classes for cheese dips. My ruling didn't make sense with how I have cheese dip classes running in parallel with your regular gestalt build. Basically you can still take practiced initiator, but it will only add the 2 levels. Your initiator level doesn't scale with your other gestalt classes (it may seem illogical, but it makes more sense with the way i want to balance the dips). Basically with Practiced Initiator, you would be Initiator Level 3 at cheese dip level 1 (Character Level 4), and IL 4 at cheese dip 2nd level (CL 8).

Further reading and what I will be adding to the FAQ in the campaign tab.
----
I want to clarify what happens when taking a Cheese Dip in a Martial Maneuver initiating class and then applying the Practiced Initiator Trait to that class. I had ruled differently in the recruitment thread at one point but this supersedes that ruling. A cheese dip is a mini version of the same gestalt progression the character normally has. It has some custom rules, but it does run in parallel to the others, just at a reduced level. In the same way that you would not count the levels of your other gestalt classes for purposes of powers in one of the classes, so too with cheese dip classes. It was confusing when reading over the way initiator level is handled, but the design for allowing the initiator level to scale was really for multiclassing between multiple initiating classes or for multiclassing with non-initiator classes. Choosing an initiator class with a cheese dip is not mult-iclassing, it is just gestalting further, albeit in a more limited capacity. Therefore the other levels of your gestalt classes have no bearing on your initiator level. If you apply Practiced Initiator to your cheese dip class it will raise your initiator level by 2 (up to your character level - which it will always be below, so this is moot.)

If you multi-class within your regular gestalt framework (class #2 or 3) and one of those classes is an initiator class, then the initiator calculations kick in for counting other classes in the same 'column' towards your initiator level, and here Practiced Initiator can kick in and offer its bonus of +2 (up to character level - which will only be pertinent if people multiclassed into an initiator class right at level 4, the earliest you can multiclass with gestalt classes 2 and 3).


This ruling seems overly harsh to me, but I guess it makes sense if you want to nerf the pow classes so the others are more viable. Sadly this removes the possibility of getting a 3rd level stance (earliest you can get it is now level 20), which was my main reason for picking warlord. Too late to pick an initiator class as my main class now...

Was the option with (total level-initiator level)/2+initiator level too powerful? It seems by far the most intuitive to me. For example at level 8 you could have 2 levels of warlord, then you would have 6 levels in classes other than warlord hence you add half that to your warlord level and end up with 5 (or 7 with practiced initiator).

Also did you change what level you could multiclass? I seem to remember that we had to take 4 levels in another class but you listed 3 twice now (both for twin mind and normal).

I guess I have to look at what psionic martial classes there are to get my stance, though raging wilder just fits so well thematically...


Wait, what? Third level stances are not nearly as powerful as some of the other stuff you can get with a level or two in warlord...

And Xanya, he's saying that a single level in the class on a cheese dip shouldn't give you nearly your full caster level in another class, that seems overpowered.


Xanya Zellor wrote:

This ruling seems overly harsh to me, but I guess it makes sense if you want to nerf the pow classes so the others are more viable. Sadly this removes the possibility of getting a 3rd level stance (earliest you can get it is now level 20), which was my main reason for picking warlord. Too late to pick an initiator class as my main class now...

Was the option with (total level-initiator level)/2+initiator level too powerful? It seems by far the most intuitive to me. For example at level 8 you could have 2 levels of warlord, then you would have 6 levels in classes other than warlord hence you add half that to your warlord level and end up with 5 (or 7 with practiced initiator).

Also did you change what level you could multiclass? I seem to remember that we had to take 4 levels in another class but you listed 3 twice now (both for twin mind and normal).

I guess I have to look at what psionic martial classes there are to get my stance, though raging wilder just fits so well thematically...

The ruling is to correct my prior ruling which was incorrectly formed based on the ways I have the classes set up, because I wasn't thinking clearly about how it should work. So, it isn't a nerf per se, because the way I explained it earlier was not appropriate to the system I have in place. Also, since no one has taken a cheese dip yet, it shouldn't affect anyone except for planning purposes. In addition, since it seemed to be unclear until only a few days ago, it should not have impacted anyones plans too negatively. Remember, you always have the option to take an initiator class as a part of your twin mind super gestalt, just not the first class. So I don't see why there should be any super panic about it.

You can multiclass at level 4 with your non-primary gestalt classes. I don't see where I said 3. You can also multi-class in your twin mind gestalt build. Again you must be level 4 before choosing a new class in the same column. Adding another gestalt is not the same as multiclassing. The tricky part is that the gestalts are not advancing at the same rate so it may be unclear to everyone by me, so I can try to clarify.

Here is an example:

Bob the adventurer is triple gestalt
fighter/mage/cleric. He gets to 4th level and choose cheese dip 1, and picks rogue. At 6th level Bob acquires the Twin Mind ability. Now Bob can take any XP he gets and apply a like amount to a whole new set of gestalt classes. Bob has 15,000 XP as a 6th level character. Bob goes on some adventures with his buddies and kills some weak stuff, enough to gain 1000 xp each. Now Bob can afford his first twin mind class which costs 500 to start at level 1. It has to be a psionic class. Bob takes Psion. Bob still has 500 XP, but he cannot start another class, because before get can, he needs a twin mind class at level 3, so he banks the extra XP in his twin mind XP pool. Now, Bob is still gestalt fighter 6/cleric 6/wizard 6/rogue 1 and twin mind gestalt Psion 1. You could say the twin mind just merges with the original gestalt but since they follow different rules and advancement we don't (sort of why the cheese dips are treated with special rules but are really just a weaker add on to your original gestalt).

Bob adventures more, over the series of many adventures and missions he racks up another 20,000 XP. This is enough to put Bob at level 8. He chooses rogue 2 as his cheese dip #1 advancement, and then takes paladin 1 for cheese dip #1 level 1 choice. He also gets to duplicate that 20,000 XP and apply it to his twin mind gestalt. Well, 20,000 XP goes a long way. With the twin mind rules Bob burns 10,000 of that XP to take his first twin mind to level 6 putting all those levels in Psion. Then he decides to add another class to the gestalt. He pays 500 XP and then another 3800 to take the level to 3rd level. He takes alchemist. Finally since he has a class at both 5th and 3rd, Bob can add a third class for another 500 XP. He takes barbarian for yucks. He has 700XP left over but can't spend it on anything, unless he wants to just apply it to one of the current classes, but he can just bank it.
Bob is now Fighter 8/Cleric 8/Wizard 8/Rogue 2/Paladin 1 and twin mind Psion 6/Alchemist 3/Barbarian 1. None of these are multiclass.

One example:
Now as Bob levels more he could multiclass with say alchemist, ceasing his alchemist advancement and taking say warlord at 4th. Now, within that column, if he applied practiced initiator, his 3 alchemist levels count as half (or 1) + the warlord level + 2 for PI, putting Bob's initiator level at 4 for that column. Win/Win. He can continue to advance this column however the heck he wants, adding more alchemist, more warlord, or more anything else. But he doesn't need to since he can just tack on more classes as part of the gestalt.

Another example:
Bob's 3rd twin mind gestalt pick of barbarian is actually the Path of War Barbarian archetype Primal Disciple. Applying Practiced Initiator to this selection does no good, as its just a 1st level class within its own column (just like a cheese dip is). Just because Bob's main gestalt class is 8th, and his highest twin mind class is 6th, he only calculates his initiator levels within the silo of that class, in this case barbarian. But Bob doesn't care because he is getting XP out the wazoo now and in another 10,000 XP he can jack his Primal Disciple level to 5th, ignoring his other two twin mind classes if he wants. He needs to get at least 1 class to 7th level before he can add a 4th class to the gestalt however Bob is content as it is so far. He laments all the time he spent anguishing over how to squeeze so much out of his cheese dip when the juicy ripe fruit of twin mind was there all along.

Let me know if I can clarify even more, as it makes sense in my head, but still may not be clear. Also feel free to ask questions about other weird combos, class features, or feats and how they apply, not just the Practiced Initiator stuff. Gestalt leads to strange stuff. Two main things to remember is your character level is still your main three gestalt class level. Unless you multiclass within a column, everything is its own silo of solitude, all gestalts, dips and twin mind gestalts. Only within a column if you can multi-class can you play together for things like PI or whenever it says treat levels of X class like levels of Y class for purposes of stacking.


lol, nice explanation, and thanks!


I somehow interpreted "You can't multiclass until level 4." As "First you need 4 levels, then you can start multiclassing'" Looking back at what was written earlier I see that I was wrong.

I guess I'll probably end up taking warlord with my twin mind instead. Now I have to find another class that I actually want 5 levels from...

I guess I'm wondering about how a lance while mounted works with swashbuckler. It is a piercing weapon that can be wielded in one hand, so I think it should work for most of the swashbuckler abilities. I will be wielding it in two hands though. Does it count for the stuff that requires a "One-Handed Piercing Melee Weapon"? What about piercing strike which states "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler"? I have a weapon in the other hand, but it's the same weapon. "Opportune Parry and Riposte" doesn't really work in pbp as you have to declare the use of the ability after the attack is declared but before it's made and there is just no such time-frame. How will you handle that?

Twin mind works a bit different than I thought. I thought you could just pick up more classes as long as at least one was high enough, having to get all to level 3 first seems much more fair (though ultimately not very different as three levels will also be cheap once we get high enough).

Raging wilder states that it stacks with barbarian to determine what rage powers you can pick. Does this work at all? Does it increase level up to max character level(so multiclassing with my barbarian becomes easier)? Or can it actually go beyond that?

Most of this is very far into the future though, so it can wait a while.


For opportune Parry and Riposte, Bodyguard, Attacks of Opportunity and the like, I've always suggested setting up automated responses. Just have a little spot in your character sheet and let your DM know how you'll react. If your 'modus operandi' changes, then let them know at the start of your turn. Then the DM just rolls for you, and comes up with the results of the action all at once.


Swashbuckler Finesse should work with a weapon wielded in two hands; most, if not all, of the swashbuckler's other abilities don't.

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