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So an interesting thing happened to me yesterday. I met with a longtime friend of mine who owns an RPG trading post because I purchased from him the three Limited Edition leather-bound 3.5 PHB, DMG and MM from him, as one of my final WotC purchases.
And I said to him “you know, this is so weird. Like some older folks remember where they were when Kennedy was shot, I remember EACH game/book store I stood out in front of waiting the day a new edition (or in the case of 1e, each book) as they came out. Just, BAM! No questions asked and I was on board. And yet I’m not only completely unimpressed by any new edition leaks or news I find no motivation whatsoever to even look into it. What happened?”
And he mentioned that I was ‘growing up’ (I’m 40). I said “WHAT!? Now, finally? As if my house, job, wife, two kids and so on aren’t enough…I’ve still gamed D&D every weekend since 1980, what’s that supposed to mean?”
He just smiled like he was joshing me and said that I was just putting more thought into my spending decisions. The real funny part is I STILL have a healthy gaming budget, but since last October my wife and I haven’t come close to using it each month and don’t plan on it with 4E either. Paizo’s got my gaming loyalty & money now. What happened, how’d I go so far off the wagon so quickly? I think I know. But if you have any fun theories, please clue me in.
In general I suspect the big 3.5 gaming library I have not come close to touching on calls, as does the fact I see the same titles but with different math coming out for 4E and it's starting to feel like a cycle instead of progress. Thoughts?
-DM Jeff
I can relate to this issue DM Jeff. I can tell you where I got my first edition PH, DMG, MM, and FF later on when it came out. Rode my bycycle down there. I ordered them through the Sears cataloge in my hometown. I think I waited about 3 weeks when they came in. Picked up the books, again rode my bicycle. Why do I remember, because it was important to me.
2nd edition I wasn't as excited about but I recall ordering them from Phoenix Games in Minneapolis and they mailed them to me because it was hard for me to get around in those days. I didn't really purchases any other 2nd edition products.
Top Secret/S.I., I remember basically every purchase.
3.0 Got the core books at the Source Comics and Games in the Twin Cities. After that, it all became a blur. I think it is because they have milked the game systems and market so much. If a new book came out overy 4-6 months, I would remember all of them. I would also have incorporated far more information into Greyhawk than I do now.
We didn't age, the market lost its excitement because nothing is special anymore. The reason we remember these things, is because they were special.
In the case of your Kennedy assassination example, it was tragic and emotional for people at the time. Either way, it means something, which is why people recall where they were at the time.
We didn't age, the market lost its excitement because nothing is special anymore. The reason we remember these things, is because they were special.
Do you mean that it kind of feels like Wizards is saying, "Well its been long enough. Time for a new edition."?
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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We didn't age, the market lost its excitement because nothing is special anymore. The reason we remember these things, is because they were special.Do you mean that it kind of feels like Wizards is saying, "Well its been long enough. Time for a new edition."?
More like it kind of feels like Wizards has flooded the market - too many books out too quickly. If they would have delayed some of their releases, they might have had more sales since players would have had some time to try out the rules presented in each book before the next one came out. It also would have provided more time for playtesting each book, which may have resulted in a higher quality product rather than some of the dreck they have released.
In essence, I believe this rush to market philosophy is the reason for 4E.
I am more on your side of the fence with 4E, except I dont see 4E as a cycle. I don't really see it as progress either. I mostly see it as something new.
A lot of the gamers that started playing 1 or more editions back have had a lot of 'backbone ideas' that have carried through for 30years. Magic systems, races, classes. It's all been washed a different color now and then but ultimately Dungeons & Dragons, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, ADD 2nd Edition and then 3.0-3.5 were cycles of the rules that were essentially the same game. It's changed but the changes have been made on common systems and at a much more gradual shift.
Well they have finally decided to break the old molds and do a complete remodel of the game from the ground up. The line of continuity has been broken by that decision for good bad or otherwise. This new edition of the rules is just that. It's a brand new game that is similar to current and past editions of D&D only by certain naming conventions and one or two other flavor bits kept together.
I think it's very exciting personally, and I think WotC is going to achieve their goal of attracting new players and impressing flexible old players.
For those of us that are happy with our game we already have a fully fleshed out system with hundreds of books full of enough rules to choke the Oliphaunt of Jondelay. And we have a cool source of continued content if the 3rd party publishers continue to operate under the OGL.
If the end result is more kids reading and rolling dice and less kids living in MMORPG worlds mashing keys...I'd say I'm fine with whatever may come.
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I can tell you where I got my first edition PH, DMG, MM, and FF later on when it came out. Rode my bycycle down there. I ordered them through the Sears cataloge in my hometown. I think I waited about 3 weeks when they came in. Picked up the books, again rode my bicycle.
Oh, for what it’s worth, I stood at the top of the escalator in Quaker Bridge mall in Lawrenceville, NJ waiting for the gate of the Allied Hobbies to open with my friend for the 1E Fiend Folio. His parents drove us.
The day I heard 2nd Edition was available, I took an “extended lunch” from my job to run to The Game Room at Woodbridge Center Mall in NJ to get the core books. It was a surprise, I was on the phone with a friend who said they just came in and I ran out that minute.
I was a playtester of 3e Forgotten Realms, and had the rules early in bad photocopy form, but it was still a glorious day to get that packet in the mail. And the day before GenCon at the RPGA meeting that year my wife and I got handed our fresh, brand-new 3.0 books from some guy named Andy Collins.
I took the day off and was waiting outside The Gamer’s Realm in Central NJ to snap up the 3.5 books the day they were available.
Good memories, those. :-)
-DM Jeff
I can tell you where I got my first edition PH, DMG, MM, and FF later on when it came out. Rode my bycycle down there. I ordered them through the Sears cataloge in my hometown. I think I waited about 3 weeks when they came in. Picked up the books, again rode my bicycle.Oh, for what it’s worth, I stood at the top of the escalator in Quaker Bridge mall in Lawrenceville, NJ waiting for the gate of the Allied Hobbies to open with my friend for the 1E Fiend Folio. His parents drove us.
The day I heard 2nd Edition was available, I took an “extended lunch” from my job to run to The Game Room at Woodbridge Center Mall in NJ to get the core books. It was a surprise, I was on the phone with a friend who said they just came in and I ran out that minute.
I was a playtester of 3e Forgotten Realms, and had the rules early in bad photocopy form, but it was still a glorious day to get that packet in the mail. And the day before GenCon at the RPGA meeting that year my wife and I got handed our fresh, brand-new 3.0 books from some guy named Andy Collins.
I took the day off and was waiting outside The Gamer’s Realm in Central NJ to snap up the 3.5 books the day they were available.
Good memories, those. :-)
-DM Jeff
The Game Room in Woodbridge used to rock (as did the Game Room that once existed in the Staten Island Mall) back in the day! I bought most of my 1st edition books in those stores.
I remember buying Oriental Adventures on a rainy day and, upon arriving home, being locked out of the house (I had forgotten my keys that day). Luckily my step-father's van was unlocked and I spent the 2 hours I waited for someone else to get home poring over the book in the shelter of the van.
For me, the OGL is partly to blame for me NOT wanting to upgrade.
I have *so* many adventures and campaigns to run for 3.5 that I simply have no *need* for a new edition (or, at least one that would require reengineering the adventures I have).
Heck, I still haven't played a lot of "Adventure I" and "Adventure II" written/compiled by some d20 hack, I think. ;)
We didn't age, the market lost its excitement because nothing is special anymore. The reason we remember these things, is because they were special.More like it kind of feels like Wizards has flooded the market - too many books out too quickly. If they would have delayed some of their releases, they might have had more sales since players would have had some time to try out the rules presented in each book before the next one came out. It also would have provided more time for playtesting each book, which may have resulted in a higher quality product rather than some of the dreck they have released.This is exactly what I meant. I realize that from a market point of view WOTC didn't feel profits would be sufficient for tons of modules and a hardcover book every 4-6 months. As a consumber though, this is my preferance. Whether it is business effective or not, for me it is the best way to stay interested in a game.
Imagine (I know not business/market efficient, but that put aside, again, imagine what it would have been like if WOTC had adopted the same approach as TSR did in the 1st edition days. Tons of adventures being the norm, with a hardcover book every 4-6 months. We could probably get other goodies like the mats, miniatures, fake coins, etc. We could have had the time to incoporate every piece of information that we wanted. In my campaign, I try and make highly detailed random encounter tables but it is impossible to keep up with the books. I like to take divine spells and reorganize them to a degree between religions, so as to provide a greater distinction between faiths and what your deity does for you. I like to spell out what all the arcane schools provide. With a book every several months I could have achieved the Greyhawk I always wanted.
Ok, so eventually over the years, WOTC gets many of their current 3.5 books published, just at the rate indicated above. We have been able to absorb things like a sponge and have really strong campaigns as a result. The rules get tweaked and improved in something like UA. They don't change drastically, just the necessary little fixes, or alternative rules for advancing in campaigns, etc.
Then eventaully, books go out of print, and tens 8 years later we get the reprint. Kinda like Disney does with their movies. "Wow, I won't see this book for another decade and I wasn't playing when the original came out, gotta have it". WOW. to me, this would have kept me locked into one game forever.
But alas, it was not meant to be. Sigh, why can't I ever get what I want in life?
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Here's a question: are you excited about the Star Wars t.v. show that they're supposedly making? I know I geeked out for each of the 3 prequels. I'm STILL capable of geeking, when geeking out is called for. Also, when Rolling Stone panned Revenge of the Sith, I got so mad I almost crapped myself. Call me a fanboy--you can bite me, Rolling Stone!!!
Here's a question: are you excited about the Star Wars t.v. show that they're supposedly making? I know I geeked out for each of the 3 prequels. I'm STILL capable of geeking, when geeking out is called for. Also, when Rolling Stone panned Revenge of the Sith, I got so mad I almost crapped myself. Call me a fanboy--you can bite me, Rolling Stone!!!
I don't care for star wars....its against my religion. I'm more of a star trek fan (original series and characters). I also don't watch much TV other than Nip Tuck and Legion on Saturday mornings. So I guess I won't get to excited.
Then eventaully, books go out of print, and tens 8 years later we get the reprint. Kinda like Disney does with their movies. "Wow, I won't see this book for another decade and I wasn't playing when the original came out, gotta have it". WOW. to me, this would have kept me locked into one game forever.
Hmmm... Never thought of it like that before. Maybe then I am not a geek so much as I am a collector of rare and fine things. I like Firefly/Serenity more then Wars or Trek. Hell, I like Firefly so much, I have Old Wounds on my computer at work. (All you other Browncoats out there that don't know about Firefly Old Wounds, go here. You won't be disappointed.)
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I have *so* many adventures and campaigns to run for 3.5 that I simply have no *need* for a new edition (or, at least one that would require reengineering the adventures I have).
That's precisely where I am at this time, with the exception I am still eating up Paizo adventures like cheeseburgers, and the players love them.
Heck, I still haven't played a lot of "Adventure I" and "Adventure II" written/compiled by some d20 hack, I think.
Hey, I resemble that remark! :-D
-DM Jeff
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Here's a question: are you excited about the Star Wars t.v. show that they're supposedly making? I know I geeked out for each of the 3 prequels. I'm STILL capable of geeking, when geeking out is called for.
I sure am! This alone at least shows I still get all excited and haven't lost the spirit. Heck ask my wife how I run to the darn mailbox every day whenever I get a notice Pathfinder is en route!
-DM Jeff
That's precisely where I am at this time, with the exception I am still eating up Paizo adventures like cheeseburgers, and the players love them.
So...in a way, Jeff, this whole thing, is YOUR fault! :D
If only you, and the rest of the d20/OGL community (Paizo included) had only put out crappy products, I would be welcoming 4E!
I guess irony can be pretty ironic sometimes....