DM Fnord |
Even though they are 3rd party, here's how I read that feat.
I can make a cloak of elvenkind resistance, it combines the properties of the cloak or elvenkind and resistance. This is simply an easily calculated custom magic item crafted with craft wondrous item.
However, while killing mobs in the bottom of some long forgotten dungeon, I come across some wings of flying.
With mythic craft wondrous item, I take the cheaper of the two items (the elvenkind resistance cloak), and by paying a fee equal to its cost, I am able to merge the two items together.
My other option would be to sell one of the two items at half price, then spend days and gold to craft the properties into the item I kept.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
areniel's sheet has been updated with the following changes:
- removed extra 10th-12th level 'bonus spells' (since we're not getting bonus epic spells for high caster stat).
- removed divine protection feat (since group seems to be banning).
- brought crafted items into alignment with group crafting conventions.
- removed disguise/deception items and skills in anticipation of new background in which he operates openly (per DM's preference).
i think that was everything you asked for, DM, right? i have a handful more money i need to spend yet, and a new background to write but those will have to wait for tomorrow, (and tons of linking to do which may have to wait even longer). in the meantime please feel free to look it over and let me know if there's any additional changes you'd like me to make.
Lessah |
Hello again!
I'm struck down with a cold and some minor fever - so I'm afraid I will not be continuing so much on Tengil's backstory and such for a few days (at worst). Note: it is mostly the focus that is lacking, so I might still fiddle a bit with his sheet and/or (if the thread comes up) ponder/RP a bit in there : )
DM Fnord |
Let's put it this way, the advanced template was banned because it was likely that everyone would take it. This it only made the gm's low complicated. Divine protection is the same thing. Worth nearly every player being able to qualify, it only makes the gm's life complicated.
If you want to vote on it fine, just know that if it passes, all my major npcs will get between +10 and +20 to their applicable stats to balance and negate that feat. Other gm's can deal work it how they want to.
When every player has 1.5 million gold, having an increase to cha of +10 is easy.
Lessah |
I can keep my wis low and send the cash to bump my cha, I get 3x the benefit.
Tell me a good reason why that feat should be allowed.
When one has the feat and faces casters using SoS/D, one can crappy web-sites with bad graphics and looped music :P?
Not certain if that qualifies as a good reason for the feat rather then against ...
DM Fnord |
Nereid's grace is rounds per level, and you can't wear armor, that works for me. It Also Doesn't Stack With ring of protection.
Bestow grace of the champion is also rounds per level, the TARGET has an alignment restriction.
As spells, both are resources that have to be spent, last a limited time, and probably won't be up in a surprise situation. Wheras DP is always there, for a feat, and as mentioned before, it's better than three other feats, combined. (Iron will, etc)
aceDiamond |
Also quick note on bestow grace, it's a different spell than bestow grace of the champion. Though it has half the alignment restriction and minutes per level instead.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I'm sorry if I misunderstood or misrepresented the divine protection scenario. I removed it from Areniel and will leave it off regardless of how it applies to others (in the interest of ensuring his saves aren't unreasonably higher than anyone else's).
I've been alone with my kids all evening but I will get his gear more complete and post at least the skeleton of his new background later tonight.
Lord Manticore |
How badly do we need our cohorts (if any) right away? All that I have left to do is to pick a (non 3rd party) mythic feat, and write some more of my background, for Tessara. I have not had a chance to write up a cohort, or any of my followers. Also, by using the ring of the eccleciarch, is there going to be a problem with me having access to ~300 followers, as opposed to normal? To be fair, I envision them to be mostly scouts and infiltrator types, not front line combatants.
DM Fnord |
damn auto correct. I sent those earlier posts from my cell phone.
So anyway, we banned the advanced template because it was basically a very cheap, across the board boost that was pretty much too good to pass up dip for everyone.
Divine Protection is just as good, massive boost to all saves for the cost of one feat.
In a low level game this might give a cleric of paladin a boost of a couple points. At this point, wow.
Validk can definitely switch out a feat for a +9 boost to all saves. Consider, that means a typical mob needs to have an attribute 18 points higher that normal to negate that one feat.
Compared to Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude. Three feats that give only a +2 to one of the saves.
I don't see any reason to allow such a feat since the natural response would be to boost all or most major npcs to compensate.
I welcome counter points though.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
david barker |
I'm fine with leaving saves as is; this is more of a strategy campaign, from my mindset, as opposed to who has the best stats/feats/etc.
I agree, also sorry I haven't got my concept up or been to active I have been looking for a new job. To be honest that is my main focus right now.
Lord Manticore |
Lord Manticore wrote:I'm fine with leaving saves as is; this is more of a strategy campaign, from my mindset, as opposed to who has the best stats/feats/etc.I agree, also sorry I haven't got my concept up or been to active I have been looking for a new job. To be honest that is my main focus right now.
I know how you feel. I got the sack a couple of weeks ago myself. I've been multi-tasking between doing some freelance work, finding a job, playing Portal 2 w/my daughter...oh, and building characters :p
Hopefully you'll find something soon.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
should we maybe move our conversation to 'discussion' so that we don't keep showing up as an active recruitment thread?
also, sorry i don't have the revised background up yet- i've been totally slammed at work. its going to basically follow the same pattern except he'll fight openly instead of pretending to be a soldier. i'll invent some non-canon threats for him to have vanquished (that won't interfere with canon events but explain why he didn't change the way the canon events went down). his wealth is basically spent- i might pick up 1 or 2 little things but all the major stuff is set and most of what he has left is going to go to material components (mostly diamonds and incense, which is what 90% of divine spells require). there are a lot of links left to add but today is super busy so i won't get to it yet.
DM Fnord |
@Lord Manticore
How you depend on using your followers will determine how much detail you need for them.
*****
I.e. Validk has them as employees throughout his organization. Using the downtime rules, they are more loyal than typical paid employees. I don't really see them as anything more than a GM tool.
We need more information on this 'Redcoat' movement. I'll send out some messengers and see what comes back.
GM decides what rolls are necessary, adds some modifiers for the number of places and communication distance, makes a couple secret rolls, provides clues:
DM: You receive several responses from units in Varisia. Please make a Diplomacy: Gather Info roll (to determine which ones are likely valid reports). Your contact in Magnimar has noticed a large group of individuals camped someplace to the north of the city. They come in every few days looking for recruits and buying supplies.
*****
If on the other hand, you want a small army to follow you around, you'll have to consider logistics like their much slower travel rate. And that they'll likely get slaughtered in any combat with an epic npc.
I wouldn't be opposed to trying out some mass combat for an encounter, but I'd likely try to arrange for something other than using your followers.
Lord Manticore |
@Lord Manticore
How you depend on using your followers will determine how much detail you need for them.
*****
I.e. Validk has them as employees throughout his organization. Using the downtime rules, they are more loyal than typical paid employees. I don't really see them as anything more than a GM tool.We need more information on this 'Redcoat' movement. I'll send out some messengers and see what comes back.
GM decides what rolls are necessary, adds some modifiers for the number of places and communication distance, makes a couple secret rolls, provides clues:
DM: You receive several responses from units in Varisia. Please make a Diplomacy: Gather Info roll (to determine which ones are likely valid reports). Your contact in Magnimar has noticed a large group of individuals camped someplace to the north of the city. They come in every few days looking for recruits and buying supplies.
*****If on the other hand, you want a small army to follow you around, you'll have to consider logistics like their much slower travel rate. And that they'll likely get slaughtered in any combat with an epic npc.
I wouldn't be opposed to trying out some mass combat for an encounter, but I'd likely try to arrange for something other than using your followers.
My current thought is that they would be part of the Crusader movement. If I have time, I would like to setup a 'mercenary' company that specializes in scouting, using the downtime rules from UC. I can see myself (pre-mythic) taking my cohort and 2-4 of my 'top people' on scouting missions. However, now that I am dealing with intergalactic threats, even my cohort may be taking on the day-to-day responsibilities of the company.
aceDiamond |
On the magic item creation page, uses per day is alters the price by "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)".
So, theoretically, if you had a once per day item you wanted to turn into twice per day, you double it. Three times per day, you triple it. The fractions depend on the uses per day you start with, but that's the starting point.
Peter Stewart |
On the magic item creation page, uses per day is alters the price by "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)".
So, theoretically, if you had a once per day item you wanted to turn into twice per day, you double it. Three times per day, you triple it. The fractions depend on the uses per day you start with, but that's the starting point.
Right, I simply wanted to ensure it wasn't going to irk the GM.
Also, are we hard lining on archtypes, or including a bit of wiggle room for abilities that in RAW do not work together, but in play might (for instance, Crossblooded and any other Sorcerer Archtype that replaces a bloodline power or spell)?
Peter Stewart |
How do we feel about commissioning custom magic items again? I just went through the calculations and getting a pair of summoner crafted Boots of Greater Teleportation (as the regular BoT, just with Teleport switched with the Greater version) should run 70,200 gp. Curious about if that would be cool with everyone.
If I'm out of line for responding to something off discussion, feel free to let me know, but personally I think this kind of cherry picking on item origins is a bad idea that leads down the rabbit hole.
Once you start discounting things along these lines you end up with a giant can of worms. Are we all going to pack wands made by paladins and rangers, wondrous items crafted by summoners, and so forth? That kind of wealth shaving seems sort of petty when we start with 1,500,000 in base wealth.
Also, I'm a little confused about wealth - in terms of how it relates to followers. I know early on in the discussion thread it was said that follower items came out of your wealth, but there seemed to be push back against that later in the thread.
Do followers get NPC wealth by level (75,000 for a 17th level cohort) or are we purely equipping them out of our 1.5 million?
DM Fnord |
Peter brings up a good point.
hybrid classes get spells at different levels.
Sometimes this works against the hybrid, sometimes not. If a full caster is using hybrid spells and taking the +5 to the craft check, then the cost is definitely cheaper for the wizard.
For instance, wands are capped at 4th level spells.
A wizard simply can't make a wand of dismissal (5th level).
But a summoner can (4th level).
So should a wizard with a high UMD be able to get summoner wands?
One thing to keep in mind.
The wizard crafts boots of greater teleport at a cost of 5th level * 9th caster level *1800 command word = 81000
The summoner crafts them at 10*4*1800=72000.
This formula makes things cheaper at low levels. At high levels it can actually be more expensive for the summoner.
My thought is that anyone with crafting uses their own class. Anyone else getting crafted gear should pick a class and be required to use that cost for all their gear. This MIGHT balance the cheaper low end stuff against the more expensive high end stuff.
@Peter We had originally stated that all follower gear had to come from the character's wealth. This isn't what the book said, so we modified that slightly.
For followers, use the basic NPC gear table for their level.
Cohorts use the heroic gear table.
The "however" is that this gear is the personal gear of the individual.
Using the NPC's gear to buy a handful of wands they can't use to hold for you doesn't work.
Any gear you want/expect to be able to use for your own benefit must come from your own pocket.
So your cohort can have some armor, a weapon, maybe a couple potions/wands/etc.
But if you want them to have potions to pour down your throat, you buy it and they can hold it.
For instance, Validk purchased a handful of magic missile wands that are kept for the use of some of his followers when he calls them through a ring gate. Since his intent is that they use those wands when he tells them to, at the target of his choosing, the cost came from his pocket.
On the flip side, his cohort Orsen has more gear than is generally allowed, that additional cost came from Validks pocket.
DM Fnord |
I'm inclined to be rather hard lined on archetypes.
As for magic items, if you are talking about a 1/day being increased to 2/day or even command word, I'm okay with that since you have to pay the difference cost.
Provided, that the ability on the magic item is one that is readily repeatable with a spell and not a custom ability.
For instance, increasing the 1/day fly in celestial armor would be fine since it is based on a spell and can readily be calculated per the formula.
On the other hand, increasing the 3/day ability of the ring of ancestral bloodlines would be problematic.
Peter Stewart |
I'm going to suggest again that Divine Protection is a very bad idea for PCs. The distinction it creates between the haves and have nots (e.g. divine casters and everyone else) in terms of save disparity is absolutely staggering (as Fnord showed in his last post).
Worse than simply opening such a large gap, the feat literally has all but no cost for anyone playing a divine spellcaster. While there are other means of achieving an ability score to saves (Heaven's Mystery, Heaven's Spirit, Enlightened Philosopher) they require huge investments in terms of levels and function as capstones.
Bestow Grace of the Champion is a rounds / level spell that only functions for a Lawful Good character. It can be dispelled, you can be caught without it cast, or you can easily be ineligible for it. Comparing it to an always on feat that again, costs only the feat for divine casters, isn't really accurate. (That said, I also think it's a bad spell, and should not be available by wand).
That said, if people are dead on leaving the feat in the game for players, I would heartily recommend adopting one of the two house rules that I've seen used in my last few high / epic games in regard to things like Divine Grace. Either,
1. Divine Grace (and similar) allows you to use your Charisma score in place of other ability scores for saves (e.g. replaces all scores with Charisma)
or
2. The bonus granted by Divine Grace and similar abilities is a resistance bonus, and thus does not stack with a cloak of resistance.
Either change allows Divine Grace / Divine Protection to provide a statistically meaningful bonus to saves (in fact, a very large one still) but helps to cut into the margins a little bit, providing a 2-7 bonus, rather than a 7-12 bonus. It's still way outside the lines for other feats like Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude, but is hopefully no longer a game wrecker for Gms.
(All of this is said with the same understanding as Areniel, that generally speaking at higher levels [and especially epic levels] the likelihood of a failed save goes down noticeably, from 50% to the 15-20% range as attacks become more lethal and numerous. Generally speaking people should not fail saves only on a 1, but design goals usually are not built around the idea of a 50% failure rat, because each failure tends to be staggering in its implications)
DM Fnord |
I don't plan most of my encounters on the 50% design rate. I used that as an example.
I would expect that a 25th level mythic creature should have abilities that are a challenge. My description noted how they would not be any challenge nearly all the time.
I'm ok with it replacing the base attribute instead of adding to it. Still quite powerful, but not a game breaker.
DM Fnord |
So, on one hand I've gotten posts about what's taking so long, on the other hand I've seen posts on not being ready.
I think that Katja and Validk are the only two characters that are ready.
Next week is a major holiday for the US, and I believe most of us are there. I had hoped to start working on getting characters introduced and the preambles completed by then.
Unfortunately, it isn't looking that way from what I am seeing.
I'm going to start with anyone ready on Dec 1. Those completed after that will get worked in as appropriate. I'd like to be able to review finalized sheets over this weekend.
Lessah |
I have to apologize about the lack of progress on my backstory and such, one "I need to fix this" has cropped up almost as soon as I finished the last one lately. There is a deadline on Friday which I hope will be the last one, which would give me most of the weekend to sit down and catch up on all the stuff that is fun to do - like this : )
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Timewise, the first of December should be enough (but see above!). However, would it be okay to type up small scenes like the ones that you put up now - before the game starts?
I feel they usually help to get the creative juices flowing and they are useful to get a live insight in our characters :)
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I'm sitting on GMT +1 actually, so no holiday for me : )
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Note: Vicarius is a title, not a name (A more scholarly inclined leader of an Hellknight order). I'm debating on whenever to keep it in the alias or not. I feel that it is a quite fun bit of flavour, but I might drop it if it causes confusion : )
Peter Stewart |
When no item may exceed 250,000 gold, does that mean in cost or price?
I'd had a staff in mind, sort of an iconic possession, that cost right along 250,000 when crafted, but realized such an item is actually worth almost 500,000. I can break it up into multiple items if needed, but thought I'd ask and clarify before I took that step.
Also, objections to upgrading items - increasing the resistance bonus on robes of the archmage to +5 for instance.