Areniel |
edit: i took down the post that was here because it was, hopefully, overly cynical... i do think that this could be a can of worms though... it would require a large amount of self-policing, and still might be a bit unbalancing... and i say that as someone who would benefit from it...
"Independent Research: A divine spellcaster can also research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless she decides to share it with others."
so, it's not just wizards... any divine caster can do this too, or at least any divine caster that prepares spells.
usually, gaining access to another spell list requires some significant investment- like taking a whole prestige class... being able to just pay some gold seems like it's probably not really enough... as much as i'd love to have divine time stop (or mage's disjunction, or wish...) for one of my 10th level spells i think maybe we should require the use of wands/staves/scrolls instead.
DM Fnord |
There are a lot of "class" abilities that can be acquired with gold. handwraps of the monk comes to mind.
Anyway, I asked for opinions on it, I appreciate it.
Interesting thing about the divine caster, I wonder which book that got added in. It was my recollection that independent research was a forte of the wizard.
Areniel |
It's in the original core rule book
And that's just my opinion, others might disagree (though, if we decide to allow it I'll have to shift around some of my gold)
DM Fnord |
I wasn't as much wanting CLW, that is more efficient as a wand.
However, there are certainly some other spells that would be of use.
The funny part is that I can craft a wand of CLW, it's a +5 to the craft DC since I don't have CLW on my spells known list.
I can also craft Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes which requires greater magic fang, again for a +5 to the craft DC (a whopping 15). But I can't cast greater magic fang on my familiar (not that I would want to).
The lower level spells are more of the fluff and really have a low impact to the game. There is certainly a bigger concern at higher level, more powerful spells.
The cleric can pay $10k and have a divine time stop in one of their few 10th level slots.
They could also make a DC 42 UMD check to cast a time stop spell from a scroll. If their INT is not 20, then another UMD check for the ability and the spell is cast for $3825.
A once a day time stop command word crafted item would cost 25,040 gold. Steep, but less than 7 scrolls.
For the cost of 1 scroll, they can cast it once a day for $3825 per scroll.
For the cost of 3 scrolls, a cleric could have time stop added to their spells known, in their 10th level slots for $10,000.
Or they can craft an item to cast it once per day for the cost of 7 scrolls, $25040.
That was the cleric example, but I'm talking about Validk, with a UMD of 44, and at least a 19 in each mental attribute. Validk doesn't have any 10th level slots, so he would be stuck with 8th level spells raised to 9th. Validk wants a large AOE. Earthquake looks like fun.
Option 1)Independently research a spell that creates earthquakes. For ease of validation, it works just like the cleric/druid spell Earthquake. But for Validk it's 9th level. So he pays 9k and creates an arcane earthquake spell. 2) He uses some scrolls from his friend the druid. He needs to make a DC 38 UMD check (auto succeed), and he can cast as many as his wallet will handle, at 3k a pop. 3) He crafts some earthquake boots usable once a day for $21,600 gold.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I guess it really is just a matter of how much you're spending (not whether or not you can even do it with gold)... I also auto-succeed on the check to cast 9th level arcane scrolls (including the check to emulate 19 Int)... So, I guess the question really just is whether people would rather we stock up on more scrolls or pay for research and have to use our own spell slots- and if the latter, if we're ok with 1k/spell level...
One thought I had to help balance the higher impact of higher level spells would be to do something like a base cost of 1k/level but then increasing the cost by 10% per spell level- that would leave 1st level spells at 1,100 (1k +10%); 2nd would go to 2,400 (2k+20%); 3rd to 3,900 (3k+30%); and so on, upto 20,000 for 10th level spells (10k+100%)... Or maybe do something like require any cross-class spell you research to use an appropriate focus that costs 1k/spell level (or spell level squared times 100g- that's the same cost for a 10th level spell, but much cheaper in the low levels)
Just some thoughts...
edit: actually, as long as we're discussing spell research... what about researching new spells that are just old spells with metamagic feats applied? e.g., could I research a spell that was a widened earthquake as an 11th level spell (8th base, +3 for widen), or a thundering version of stormbolts as a 10th level spell (8th base, +2 for thundering)?
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
but there's literally zero point to researching them if you already have the feat... you could just prepare the spell with the metamagic feat on it! to clarify- i wasn't talking about using cross-class spells there, just using research to create better versions of spells you already have access to... like, if you can already cast earthquake, could you research improved earthquake and rather than monkeying around with trying to make up a better version of the spell and then having to work out what level that would be, just make it effectively modified by a metamagic feat and then you know exactly what level it should be.
as for that negating the need for metamagic feats... that was basically my argument against cross-class research in the first place- it "would remove most of the need for any metamagic feat [the Mystic Theurge prestige class]". and, like you've pointed out, the work around already exists with gold... we could pay to research the improved version of the spell and cast it out of a high level slot, or we can pay more for a metamagic rod and cast it out of the regular slot...
honestly, it doesn't make that much difference to me- i'm mostly set on my high level spells anyways. i definitely think we should work out all the details before we start though (and I'm pretty certain that there will be at least one other character that this effects). the hitch is, it will effect how i finish spending my money... so i can't finalize my character until its settled...
Grand Moff Vixen |
Would anyone mind if my character finally stabilized Galt? That seems worthy of a Level 25 character. I have a build, but I need a backstory to apply to her, and I only recently thought of something promising.
I admit, I know nothing of Galt, though I am not opposed to what you have in mind.
This payday (Wednesday) I am going to get an additional book or two so I can work on more background details. My plan is to fill in some of the blank areas.
I'm not sure which book/s I want to get as of yet, but I will peruse my wishlists to see what can be of use.
Also, I have swapped out Resurrection and taken Greater Teleport instead. I have scrolls with True Resurrection as it is.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
so... we never really got closure on spell research...
DM- it seemed like you were leaning towards 'yes' on cross class, and 'no' on metamagic-based improved versions... is that what we're going with? and, if so, what's the ruling on research cost?
i'm not sure how extensive your research plans are but i'd only research 1 or 2 spells (maybe 3 at the absolute most)- it will effect my gear purchases though so i need to know what we're doing so i can finalize things...
Areniel |
i reworked Areniel's background... i think (hope) that its more in line now with what DM was looking for... there's a link to the character sheet in my profile (background is at the end).
i still have a bunch of links to add, but other that that i think i'm finished except allocating the last 200k gold... that's gonna be split up between material components, scrolls, and possibly spell research as soon as DM decides how we're handling research.
DM Fnord |
At least one person was not interested in cross-class spell research. So I'm fine with taking it off the table.
While both cross-class and metamagic research can to some extent be duplicated with scrolls, or magical items. A cleric researching wizard spells doesn't remove the need for a wizard.
Allowing the research of metamagicked spells without the feat does remove something from the game. I think that's a pretty big difference.
It's moot as they are, at this point, not an option.
As for your cash needs, it would probably be a good idea to have a few thousand gold in reserve. If you are spending down to your last gold piece, how will you handle incidental needs?
While I am certainly not going to require accounting for every minor purchase, I do expect a realistic component of having the pocket change for a room at the inn or the mug of beer.
Areniel |
lol- i was the one opposed to cross-class research... your argument was sort of winning me over though... but not allowing either of those types of research is probably better in the long run (the party Mystic Theurge will probably appreciate that we can't duplicate his schtick so easily).
i have 200,000 gold left. i will keep some of that available as spending money, but that seems like a bit much. i haven't bought any scrolls yet though and i want to make sure i have enough diamonds and incense to cast any spells i need to (plus i'll probably buy some basic gear for my simulacrum). if i have as much time tonight as i think i will i should be able to totally finish.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Areniel is all set (unless there's anything else that needs to be changed). there's a couple of minor details i need to finalize (like what i want my contingent spell to be) and the character sheet still needs some work (like a bunch more links), but i'm ready to get started whenever you're ready to work me in :)
Lord Manticore |
While I still need to workout a 'modern' backstory, Tessara is essentially complete and ready for insertion. In my first 'campaign' post should I post something that would be specific to my situation, or do you want me to tie into something else (besides cinnamon shortages, that is ;) )
DM Fnord |
For right now I'm going a bit more sandbox.
Post what ever you want, wherever. I'll start plugging in clues, details, bread crumbs, and if necessary, the occasional rail if neon arrows don't work.
As long as we don't end up with multiple combats, I can run multiple settings until such time as the players seek out their companions.
DM Fnord |
Question on Areniel.
You have a simulcrum, no problem. Your background states you created it;
but you don't have the spell on your spell list (if you used a scroll, the cost of the scroll should be included in the production cost for the simulcrum).
Please make your disguise roll here, and note the results on your sheet.
Areniel |
I replicated the spell with miracle, no need for a scroll (same thing for contingency). I did forget about the disguise check though... Could I pay extra to have a skilled crafter make it for me, instead? And if so, how much would that be? (I'm not going to lie about its nature- people will know it's a simulacrum... I'd still like it to be a decent likeness though)
Lord Manticore |
I'll admit that I've been dragging my feet with coming up with a cohort for Tessara; holidays and colds can do that. Do you want the cohort on the same file as Tessara's stats, or on a different sheet?
I'll also try to get my first post in this afternoon, if possible.
Areniel |
I don't want to overstep any bounds, but I think I might have a decent amount of down time tomorrow if you want an assist with your cohort Tess... If you're interested, just let me know what you have in mind and I should be able to put something together that you can edit as you see fit- sort of a starting point for you to customize from to save you some time/energy on some of the mechanics (and if not I certainly won't take it personally)
@GM- feel free to write some or all of what goes on with the paladins... i was gonna give my last post about a week and if nothing developed for me out of it i was gonna start on the scene with the pallies myself and see if you wanted to jump in at some point...
DM Fnord |
Wow, hit some combination of keys that just auto closed chrome, without notice, and quickly. I need to know what that was...
Anyway, I just dropped a simple response. I'm not planing on using anything with the Worldwound just yet. I also want to give you and Katja a chance to establish your relationship.
Lord Manticore |
I don't want to overstep any bounds, but I think I might have a decent amount of down time tomorrow if you want an assist with your cohort Tess... If you're interested, just let me know what you have in mind and I should be able to put something together that you can edit as you see fit- sort of a starting point for you to customize from to save you some time/energy on some of the mechanics (and if not I certainly won't take it personally)
@GM- feel free to write some or all of what goes on with the paladins... i was gonna give my last post about a week and if nothing developed for me out of it i was gonna start on the scene with the pallies myself and see if you wanted to jump in at some point...
Yes, Areniel, I could use an assist with the cohort. I would like the cohort to be a true spymaster, one that could easily blend into whatever element he/she needed to be in. The problem is that the concept is rather nebulous in my mind, with too many options to choose from. I would like her (I'm leaning towards a female) to be able to shape change or at least have access to a polymorph spell, with a high Disguise score.
I don't want her to be another drow (noble or otherwise), and I thought about dragons, but the restrictions are a bit much on that score. That being said, I don't want to do the standard aasimar/tiefling/half-whatever bit again, either. I'll have some downtime tomorrow as well, so perhaps we can confer and come up with something together.
M
Grand Moff Vixen |
Seeing as we have a timeline doc in the drive folder, I am going to begin making a more cohesive history of Katja in a chronological order. This will help to streamline it as well as give me the opportunity to add in more detail to her story. I will also be adding details on how she met the others based on what we have already spoken about.
Exciting!
Areniel |
Most of what I've done/posted so far has been around the the worldwound... The patrol with whom I shared my extended heroes feast were probably either safeguarding the border/Wardstones or scouting demon movements... and I think I included that the paladins I was training were based in Kenabres (and my simulacrum, with whom I share a telepathic bond, is based in Nerosyan)... All that is to say that there must be some way you can tie in with me, if you want? If nothing jumps out from what I've mentioned so far feel free to shoot me a PM and we can talk about ideas for how I could serve as a hook for you.
Lessah |
Aight - I'm messing around with gear and feats now.
Some questions!
There is an Path Ability that works really nice with Hexes - but sadly it is underneath the Archmage (since Shamans weren't released when mythic adventures came out) and all the other archmage abilities specifically call out 'Arcane Spells'. Would it be okay to pick the Path Ability as a Hierophant ? Or to take the Archmage path but ignore the references to arcane magic specifically ?
The Path ability:
Whenever you spend a standard action, move action, or swift action to activate an arcane school power, bardic performance, bloodline power, hex, or magus arcana, you can also activate an ability that uses mythic power as a free action. The mythic ability you activate must require the same action type as the other ability you activated or faster (a swift action is faster than a move action, and a move action is faster than a standard action).
Additionally - custom magic items. Would a quiver capable of casting Quickened Abundant Ammunition be too strong ?
My plan was to dabble a bit in vital strike + named bullet to be able to deal some damage :)
Areniel |
i can't speak to special exceptions the GM might make, but for options within the written rules...
- the dual path feat would allow you to be a hierophant but pick up archmage options... it would grant one archmage arcana (of which 'mage strike' is the only applicable option, and its admittedly not great) and more importantly allows you to pick path abilities from hierophant and/or archmage! in addition to Coupled Arcana the following archmage abilities do not specify arcane spells: abundant casting, arcane endurance, crafting mastery, eldritch breach, elemental bond, enduring armor, energy conversion, enhance magic items... ok, i gotta be honest- even i didn't realize how many of these path abilities would work for you... i'm not gonna finish typing the list, just read through the path abilities for archmage.
- i don't know what type of character you're going for, so this might be a much better option or it might be much worse... but you could instead take dual path for trickster rather than archmage. fleet charge and surprise strike are probably both better options for you than mage strike. the path abilities here are the big question mark- whether they're better or worse than archmage comes down to what type of guy you want him to be. the key here is 'path dabbling' which would allow you to pick up coupled arcana without having to take any other archmage stuff.
hope that helps. regarding abundant ammunition... custom items are up to the GM, but the spell has a duration so could be made constant rather than quickened. by the formula in the book, a constant 1st level spell (at CL 1) is 2,000 x2 for a minute/level duration for 4,000g... a quiver is slotless so that doubles the price and your endless quiver costs 8,000 gold (subject to GM discretion). out of curiosity though... named bullet only targets one piece of ammunition per casting- are you gonna have the action economy to make that functional?
@ everyone- RPGSS voting begins tonight, so the site may crash periodically... make extra sure to copy and paste (or otherwise backup) your posts so you don't lose anything!
Lessah |
@Action Economy - Abundant Ammunition allows spells that enhance projectiles to be cast on the container instead, and then applies to any ammunition drawn.
So round 1: Cast Quickened Abundant Ammunition + Named Bullet
Round 2: Draw arrow and shoot with Vital Strike
The character is a fey Shaman so any archery tricks isn't going to be the main focus. Merely something to do when a bit extra damage is needed : )
-------
@Trickster - Hmm. I didn't think of that - certainly much better then just picking up archmage!
edit: Here is the profile so far :) Some crunchy stuff left, and the fluffy stuff is still on a separate document, but other then that - feel free to take a look!
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
@Action Economy - Abundant Ammunition allows spells that enhance projectiles to be cast on the container instead, and then applies to any ammunition drawn.
ultimately, its not up to me and will probably come down to a GM adjudication but I don't think that trick works with Named Bullet... spells like align weapon or greater magic weapon are normally cast on quivers or bundles of ammunition, not individual pieces like named bullet; even more problematic, named bullet specifically states "Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged." which means that even if the spell were affecting every piece of ammo in the quiver it would end as soon as one of them was used to attack (ending the benefit for every piece simultaneously).
I'm not trying to be a downer (and maybe the GM will rule otherwise), but I thought it would be better to figure out exactly how that'll all work now rather than you trying it in our first major combat and discovering that your build has a crucial flaw... one upside to potentially dual pathing trickster is that you could spend 1 mythic point on fleet charge or surprise strike to get off an attack for 'free' in the same round you cast named bullet...
Lessah |
Lessah wrote:@Action Economy - Abundant Ammunition allows spells that enhance projectiles to be cast on the container instead, and then applies to any ammunition drawn.ultimately, its not up to me and will probably come down to a GM adjudication but I don't think that trick works with Named Bullet... spells like align weapon or greater magic weapon are normally cast on quivers or bundles of ammunition, not individual pieces like named bullet; even more problematic, named bullet specifically states "Once the target is used to attack the selected creature, successfully or not, this spell is discharged." which means that even if the spell were affecting every piece of ammo in the quiver it would end as soon as one of them was used to attack (ending the benefit for every piece simultaneously).
I'm not trying to be a downer (and maybe the GM will rule otherwise), but I thought it would be better to figure out exactly how that'll all work now rather than you trying it in our first major combat and discovering that your build has a crucial flaw... one upside to potentially dual pathing trickster is that you could spend 1 mythic point on fleet charge or surprise strike to get off an attack for 'free' in the same round you cast named bullet...
Yeah, I have actually looked around a bit about that issue. People seemed divided about 50-50 on the issue and no overbearing evidence either way, sadly.
Since I will be using Vital Strike, Abundant Ammunition isn't really necessary (It just makes it easier to continue shooting on round 3) so should the interaction be stricken down I'll just have to add some variety to my tactics (grasp! oh no - the horror :P).
DM Fnord |
Areniel provided good advice regarding the mythic question. I'd suggest sticking to one of those options to avoid a house rule that then opens up the possibility of other house rules.
Regarding the quiver...
There are two ammunition management items already available, efficient quiver and endless bandolier. Both require loading, but provide other benefits. What you are asking about is never-ending ammunition.
In this case, I would not allow a constant ability. It would be appropriate to have such a magical item to be command word. This would require spending an action to activate it, and would provide a duration based on the caster level used to create the item. Which at the cheapest means the effect would last for one minute.
Magic items that are based on spells with options generally require the option to be selected at the time the magic item is crafted. Rings of energy resistance must select a specific resistance when crafted. Darkskull requires the spell effect of unhallow to be determined when crafted.
It is notable that the two examples in abundant ammunition both state in their text that projectiles may be selected provided they are together. Named Bullet is very specific in that it effects one piece of ammunition.
So let's turn this around. If I cast AW or GMW on a bundle of 50 arrows, I have (at minimum level) one or two minutes to fire all fifty arrows. At 10th level, I still have 50 rounds of magicked ammo, and now I have 10 or 20 minutes to use it up. Adding Abundant Ammo to the mix doesn't do much at low level. By the time I finish casting the second spell, I've lost 1 of my 10 rounds of AA. At 10th level this is less of an impact, and with a ranged focus character, I may actually go through 50 rounds of ammunition.
Based on this information, I would be inclined to state that such a magic item would have to have the second spell crafted into the item. I would allow that only one command was needed to activate both effects.
The next test in making the magic item is to ensure that we are not falling for the "True Strike Fallacy".
Align weapon doesn't have a comparison I could find. Requiring that a specific alignment be selected when a magic item is crafted would be sufficient.
GMW is a bit different though. It specifically represents an attack/damage bonus to a weapon.
Let's say you find that 1 minute activation is fine, then the base cost for the quiver would be 1st level X caster level 1 X 1800 gold.
Adding align weapon would cost 2nd level X caster level 3 X 1800 = 10,800 plus 1800 X 1.5 =2700 for the quiver, for a grand total of 13,500 gold that provides unlimited aligned ammunition (select alignment at time of crafting, can not be changed) for one minute per activation.
Now, how much bonus do you want from GMW? The minimum? A +1, this would cost 3rd level X caster level 5 X 1800 = 27000 plus another 2700 for the quiver for a total of 29,700 gold to have unending +1 ammunition for one minute per activation.
As for Named Bullet. I'd allow it. However, in the same vein as the previous examples, you would need to determine the specific creature type/subtype it was usable against during crafting.
This would cost even more, 4th level spell X caster level 7 X 1800 = 50400 plus the 2700 for the quiver, totaling 53100 gold to have one minute of ammunition that strikes really well against one creature type.
In any case, I'd also add a stipulation that only one person may draw from the quiver in a round.
These costs seem comparable to having a thrown weapon with comparable abilities, especially with the feats that would allow you to use more than one per turn.
I'm inclined to allow these, though I would like to see other's viewpoints.
Lessah |
Vital strike (Improved & Mythic) is used since it allows me to:
1) Boost both my ranged and melee damage to a useful level
2) Stay out of the Full Attack zone of more competent combatants with the help of Flyby Attack
So my purpose for Abundant Ammunition was merely to extend a single casting of Named Bullet a bit further (Infinite Ammo exists as an enchantment already : )) - and for that purpose, I think I could merely splunge for quickened-Named Shot spells now that I think of it !
-----------------
My current Mythic loadout is:
Hierophant: Recollected Blessing (cast copy of spell prepared as a swift action)
Feat: Mythic Spellcasting (Irresistible Dance)
Path Ability: Faith's Reach (to avoid getting stabbed while using the above. Considering using a more mundane way of delivering it instead and pick Eldritch Breach)
Mythic Flaw: Cold Iron Weakness - Fit for a Faë
Mythic Bonus Feat: Mythic Vital Strike
I'll think about switching out my first feat for Extra Path - but it would be an investment for the future. Hmmh : )
Lessah |
Some numbers!
----------------------------
Vital Strike: Prehensile Hair +34 (3d3+72 + Stricken Heart [2d6 Negative Energy Damage + 1 round Staggered])
Vital Strike, Divine Power: Prehensile Hair +41 (3d3+114 + Stricken Heart [2d6 Negative Energy Damage + 1 round Staggered])
Vital Strike: Oathbow +28 (3d8+6 x3)
Vital Strike, Named Bullet & sworn target (crit + vital strike = x6): Oathbow +31 (12d6+50+3d8)
Vital Strike, Named Bullet & sworn target (crit + vital strike = x12): Oathbow +31 (24d6+80+3d8)
Vital Strike, Named Bullet, Divine Power & sworn target (crit + vital strike = x6): Oathbow +38 (12d6+92+3d8)
Vital Strike, Named Bullet, Divine Power & sworn target (crit + vital strike = x12): Oathbow +38 (24d6+164+3d8)
-----------------------------
If forced into melee, the procedure is Activate Prehensile Hair (Standard) & Cast Quickened Divine Power* (Swift). Next Round is to use Standard Action to Attack while maintaining positioning with Flyby Attack. Season with quickened/Recalled spells (True Strike?)
If forced to engage in archery - First round is Named Bullet (or perhaps another spell?) + Quickened Divine Power. Second round is Vital Strike Shot, preferably using the Oathbows sworn enemy power, and qucikened/Recalled spells (refill Named Bullet if needed or didn't do that first round, True Strike).
*Divine Power will be shared via Improved Share Spells (the teamwork version) to my spirit animal, so it is not a total waste if I keep out of combat (which I will try and do!).
On math and Crits!:
The Oathbow was chosen since it sounded kindof cool - but also for its nice sworn enemy feature which turns its crit multiplier into x4 (nice for Named Bullet!). Most likely, using Paizo math, a Named Bullet Mythic Vital Strike would be a x6 multiplier (x4 + x3 = x6, the way multiplier typically stack), not a x12 multiplier (x4 x3 = x12 [using real math]). But I included it for fun : )
Lessah |
Oh - another random and possible silly question!
The spell Atavism bestows the Advanced Template on an animal for 1 min/level. My Faë is a legal target due to the Animal Soul feat.
Would casting a spell (probably using a scroll/staff) that grants the Advance template (for a limited time) be kosher, since it is banned in character creation?
Because it is a very nice and versatile buff - especially improved spell-shared with a staff so that both me and my spirit animal gets it : )