Didn't necessarily mean a roll (although at the table if my players have forgotten a detail their PCs have picked up along the way, I'll generally have them roll an Int check for me to remind them). Just that therealthom was out of town for the weekend and Navior hasn't posted in a while, so they ought to have a chance to "remember in character" if they choose to, before we just forge ahead and force them to forget/ignore it by default.
Honestly, I wasn't sure how much time we had left before the meeting. We went to Rag's End 3 hours beforehand, and it wasn't clear how much time it took us to find the waitress and get her story.
Yeah, I'm putting the Rag's End group at about 7pm, and the other group at about a quarter after six. Honestly, I've lost track a bit myself, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it (and don't really have the energy to go back and figure it out for the sake of thirty minutes here or there, so those are the times we'll go with).
Laya would definitely remember the meeting, so I'll have her mention it. She'd be willing to go along to it if that's what the party wants, but she's also willing to miss it if necessary in order to stay and aid the rest of the party.
For the record - Phillip doesn't like Khismia... which I know is basically Joana's stated goal... so it's working :P
Waiting to see if Laya's got anything to add before hitting the warehouse. I'll be afk today so when you all are ready to go, just have Heward give the word. He's going to want to stay within 30 or 40' of Phillip though. Got to be able to get to him and smack the vargouille in 1 round.
For the record - Phillip doesn't like Khismia... which I know is basically Joana's stated goal... so it's working :P
Well, solve the mage-poisoning case, and you'll be rid of her. Or just get her killed. Whatever.
Just for the sake of clarity, and since it seems to be common knowledge in this thread that my PCs have done things that never actually happened, Khismia did not suggest Phillip be used as bait. She only suggested we use the tomb robber to draw out what remains of his partner in crime.
Phillip's player knows that - but Phillip was reacting to a reasonable interpretation of events as they played out.
Although Khismia first suggests using Robal as bait, the repetition of the statement (low-value target) was made after Heward had tied up Robal.
Phil then looked around between Khismia, Laya, Heward and himself and inferred that she meant that Phil himself was the low-value target in line with her previous conduct Barely acknowledging Phillip's existence, harsh words after the chase of the waitress, and pointing a crossbow at him when they first met.
Khismia then clarified herself - but also reinforced her callousness and her particular choice of words. His subsequent umbrage is borne more out of her freely stating her views regards to the rights of prisoners, etc.
Hopefully that sheds light on Phil's viewpoint - and I can state with certainty that his beef with Khismia is not based on her suggesting that Phil be used as bait. He's currently upset at all of the other things that Khismia's been saying about the relative value of life and such.
Off topic for a moment...
My two other MSI groups are getting along in their games. Neither group had yet tried the time wasting trip to Guards and Wards (though it means they'll have a more interesting encounter at Rimblesnuffin's with the two goons than you did). One group didn't split up, do only just found out about the enjoiner at the end of the first day, then elected to retire to the Arms for a night of drinking. The other group did split up, and learned the location of the other two fragments with enough time to spare to cause me some trouble during their first day.
They're already discussing taking possession of the two fragments. I know some people felt it was a bit railroady that the NPCs refused to give up their pieces. Mostly, I felt that since the bad guy wouldn't know the pieces were gone until he'd already attacked, and if you had the pieces, you might not have bothered guarding the buildings, or might have split the party at a time you really needed to be together.
So, thoughts? Would allowing the PCs to take the fragments prove detrimental to the storyline? Any advice here?
I really want the encounter at the party, though. It is what gives the PCs the chance to interact with, and make impressions on, several key NPCs, and generate the meeting with Pellerin.
Plus, the whole saving Rimblesnuffin's from falling over the edge of the cliff is supposed to be a dramatic high point leading up to the final climax. I'd hate to give it up, too.
Which I guess is why people found it railroady. GM too in love with his own encounters.
Insuring that the PCs can't actually affect the series of events but can only react to them, no matter how good their arguments or high their social skills rolls, discourages player enthusiasm. The fact that we always had to fight the summoner on a battlefield of his own choosing only exacerbated the power disparity, and it made all our advance information-gathering feel like a waste of time.
Not to mention that, as Laya eloquently pointed out, it makes Lord Wallis, in particular, look like a moron for insisting on keeping an item which he knows someone has been knocking down buildings to steal in his home during a public event rather than putting it somewhere for safe keeping, especially when his crack security team which he trusts more than the Watch proceeds to do nothing to actually safeguard his house and belongings but just mills around outside with everyone else. If you're married to forcing the PCs to fight at the party, let him have made a big deal about his daughter wearing a family heirloom necklace going back to the founding of Magnimar at her debut, although then you're probably going to have to kill Benessa, as she doesn't stand any better chance against Wisp than any of the PCs.
As it turned out, Rimblesnuffin's was a low point rather than a high point in our game. It demonstrated that we were completely overpowered and outclassed by the bad guy, allowed the party to choose to sacrifice one of its own for nothing instead of bond as a team that cared about each other's lives and well-beings, and was followed up by the higher-level NPCs yelling at us for trying and failing instead of providing us with any sort of resources and encouragement to make us feel like we had a better shot next time. That had to have been one of the most discouraging encounters I've ever played through. Several of us almost died and we didn't hurt the enemy at all; heck, we couldn't even locate him.
Honestly, if the PCs aren't going to have any chance to stop Mikobar at Rimblesnuffin's because the fight at the party is preordained, you shouldn't force them to have the encounter. You're just setting them up to lose, and since Mikobar's minions are all summoned, they can't even do anything to weaken him before the final battle. It's just a feel-bad encounter in which the PCs can accomplish nothing. Have Guards & Wards inform the Watch when the alarm goes off, and they can arrive after Mikobar is already gone to try and save Lowcleft. Because even though we stopped the building from going over the cliff, it still felt like a total defeat, especially since we only got reprimands for not catching the summoner instead of any sort of accolades for saving the city. If you've got an encounter planned that the PCs absolutely cannot interfere with the outcome of, you ought to let it happen off-screen and only let the PCs show up when they can do something.
EDIT: Being a reasonable guy, Rimblesnuffin probably ought to ask MSI to take the enjoiner fragment to keep it in a safe place until the guy is caught and try to save his home and business. Leave it up to the PCs as to whether they're clever enough to spread the word loudly and quickly that it's been moved to keep Mikobar from smashing the store. Of course, then you'd have to switch the venue for the smash-n-grab from Rimblesnuffin's to a Watch outpost somewhere, but you could use the same map and have the vault in the basement be an evidence lockup and still preserve the structural integrity of MSI HQ. It's all about the illusion of flexibility; the PCs end up in the same place, but they feel like they were in the driver's seat rather than the passenger car.
Joana's post has some good ideas. Esp. the illusion of flexibility and save the house when they're called to the scene too late. Getting beat can provide motivation. I did bite on Rimblenuffin's. It made me really want to catch the perp, while completely dreading a confrontation.
Joana's post has some good ideas. Esp. the illusion of flexibility and save the house when they're called to the scene too late. Getting beat can provide motivation. I did bite on Rimblenuffin's. It made me really want to catch the perp, while completely dreading a confrontation.
Well, that WAS the plan, or at least what I hoped you'd get out of it.
Also, the confrontation was a chance for the group to get some intel on how to beat Veristan. If you had just shown up to save the building, you would never have known that the snake had electric capabilities (which it no longer has, but whatever), or that Veristan liked to fight from invisibility, so you would never have brought those little bags of flour.
The battle at Rimblesnuffin's was tough, and you got spanked pretty hard, but the group's tactics weren't exactly stellar. You were split three ways, and some of you had no idea where the rest of the group even was. I think that's totally realistic for a group, a lot of whom are not warriors, that's just met and only had a day to get a feel for each other, but it made the encounter a lot harder than it was supposed to be. Really, the encounter was against a trio of earth elementals and an eidolon (for which you all got full xp credit, even though they were summoned creatures, because Veristan, while there, was never a target and never involved in the confrontation). Also, I rolled really badly (for you) when determining how many elementals were there. There could have been only one or two.
Veristan used to be a fifth level vanilla summoner, using the summon eidolon spell to get his snake along with his elementals. For these groups, he's a fourth level master summoner. It means he has a bit less power, and the amazing staying power of the master summoner doesn't help him as much as it would a PC master summoner. Plus, the eidolon is only a 2HD beastie, making at a CR 1 for the Rimblesnuffin encounter, instead of CR 4 like you fought.
All in all, I think having the battle (while still tough) a bit easier will go a long way towards avoiding any player bitterness. Plus, these groups have already gelled a bit better, taking a lot of time for interpersonal interactions (save for one group where the elven diviner just made a rather poor joke about possibly using the other party members for necromantic experimentation some time down the road; that didn't go over well).
The illusion of flexibility is important, though. Honestly, if these party's do get the enjoiner away from the gnome, knowing that his shop is a likely target, and then don't bother to watch the building even with the enjoiner gone, they deserve the negative ramifications and fall out that they'll receive down the road.
Speaking of interparty relations: Don't take a hostage if you're not prepared to follow through and make the party deal with the consequences of their actions. You must have thought the others would try to save her life since you backed off Wisp's threat, but all I got out of Rimblesnuffin's was the knowledge that the party considered my PC an acceptable loss in exchange for ... not really accomplishing anything (which, frankly, makes Heward's shock and disgust with Khismia's utilitarian ethics a little rich). ;P
It left me in this weird limbo where I knew the party had chosen to sacrifice Auriel but she didn't know, and she hadn't actually died after all, though not due to any effort on the party's behalf, and I'm pretty sure it had an effect on my/Auriel's attitude when we started getting lectured about party trust and unity.
I'll have a post up tonight when I can get a look at the map (namely when not at work).
Sorry guys, I will get a chance to get to my computer with the map on it, I promise.
According to Laya's character sheet, it is, so it can't be converted to a cure, if that's why you're asking.
Technically, using Intimidate like that is a standard action, and I assume you'd rather it's effect than taking down the infected civilian. The infected take a good look at Heward, brandishing his halberd. The threat from him being much more present than that of the vargouille, they scatter, three out the door, the rest into an office behind the south stairs.
Isn't that worse actually? Releasing three more about-to-be-vargouilles into the general population at sunset that will have to be tracked down?
Technically, using Intimidate like that is a standard action, and I assume you'd rather it's effect than taking down the infected civilian. The infected take a good look at Heward, brandishing his halberd. The threat from him being much more present than that of the vargouille, they scatter, three out the door, the rest into an office behind the south stairs.Isn't that worse actually? Releasing three more about-to-be-vargouilles into the general population at sunset that will have to be tracked down?
Yeah, that thought went through my head, too.
Bugger - used up the crit on the terrified civilian and had nothing left for the main target.
I don't think I killed the infected yet - with the 12 non-lethal damage it should only have 7 lethal, so has a good chance of stabilizing.
According to Laya's character sheet, it is, so it can't be converted to a cure, if that's why you're asking.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Isn't that worse actually? Releasing three more about-to-be-vargouilles into the general population at sunset that will have to be tracked down?
Well 2 now. And yeah, it's worse. I should have made sure the door was closed behind us.
At least the door is closed now and Laya's safe. Heward can move freely.
Joana, I'll bet Laya and Khismia get back into this fight before it's done. Neither Phil nor I look to be good at ranged fighting.
work trip. can post maybe Sunday? then another trip mon-Tues next week.
Friday's work trip turned into 2 days plus now I've got to finish the reports for all last week's work ASAP. Monday's trip has been extended to Wednesday. Might be Thursday before I can post again. DMPC my character as needed. Sorry.
I like Joana better when she's not playing a character that's seemingly solely made to be distinctly unlikeable :P
Trying to guilt someone into feeling bad because he didn't burn civilians alive...
It's chilling, but there's a horrible macabre logic to it. I know what Laya's counter-argument would be if she were there, but yeah... chilling. :)
Hey, excuse me for thinking about these poor people's lives after we've cashed in our XPs and patted ourselves on the back for being heroes: "We'll prevent you from dying and turning into a monster, but you're just going to have to live with Intelligence and Charisma drain and the fact that you're now hideously deformed so that your loved ones will never again be able to look at you without shuddering in revulsion. You're welcome, and have a nice day!" ;D
Of course, if the Cryptmistress is willing (and high level enough) to provide all the spellcasting gratis, that's only 200 gp per infected prostitute and/or panhandler in material components. If the city of Magnimar had to pay someone for the casting, it'd be 1670 gp a hideous, tentacled head.
Joana,
I love most of your characters (except Khismia - she's a b*tch) and your ability to RP them... but please don't actively defend Khismia's viewpoint too vigorously. I'm happy with the thought exercise, and I agree that in a cold and emotionless state that they would be better off dead than betentacled... but as a person, I don't want to be made to feel bad because I didn't jump on the murder bandwagon.
Regards,
Phillip / Mark
Also, don't assume the NPC's decisions before we've seen them. She, the Cryptmistress of Magnimar responsible for overseeing all things related to death and burial, didn't do anything to restore the tomb robbers beyond stopping the infection. She made it quite clear in character that that was a deliberate decision and they were getting what they deserved for robbing at tomb. Restoration spells will take care of the mental drains (without material components, the diamond dust is only for removing negative levels), and they'll have other means to repair the physical deformities. Of course, Khismia is free to assume that the Cryptmistress wouldn't bother with any of these measures.
Restoration
School conjuration (healing); Level cleric 4, paladin 4
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (diamond dust worth 100 gp or 1,000 gp, see text)
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels temporary negative levels or one permanent negative level. If this spell is used to dispel a permanent negative level, it has a material component of diamond dust worth 1,000 gp. This spell cannot be used to dispel more than one permanent negative level possessed by a target in a 1-week period.Restoration cures all temporary ability damage, and it restores all points permanently drained from a single ability score (your choice if more than one is drained). It also eliminates any fatigue or exhaustion suffered by the target.
1,000 gp to remove a negative level, but without negative levels, it's still 100 gp material component per casting, and it would take two, since each casting works on only a single ability score. Anyway, I was basing my assumption about the expense and high-level magic involved on this post that spelled out what would be needed to reverse the effects --
-- which implied removing the physical changes would require a 13th-level caster.
But, yeah, I am guilty of assuming that all I'm going to get from the Cryptmistress is insults and platitudes after her "oh you poor dear stupid child" speech. As such, it's probably best that Heward send Khismia back to the Bazaar. Her demonstrated inability to make any positive contribution to the team gives Heward all the in-game justification he might need to be rid of her, and meta-wise, the fact that she hasn't done anything but make enemies in four months of real time means her absence certainly won't weaken the party.
I point out once again the massive breach of protocol that would involve Khismia attending the secret meeting, since, per the DM, she works for a ruthless (yet Lawful Neutral) crime gang hostile to the Watch, rather than the fantasy-RPG equivalent of a force of mall cops.
Anyway, not interested in providing security for Heward to have a conversation she doesn't get to take part in. Bodyguard duty, as she learned at the library, is boring.
The above is both true and reasonable for Heward to know. The Princess of the Market is a glorified mafia boss, tolerated by the Watch because she keeps the area secure for foreign merchants and presents a very favourable view of Magnimar for new visitors arriving by sea. And since she doesn't seek to increase her territories and refuses to endorse drugs, the Watch is fine letting her have her little area. She IS Lawful Neutral, as compared to Jaijarko, the mafia boss of Rag's End, who specializes in flophouses, smuggling, drugs of all kinds, prostitution, assassinates City Watch members when he gets the chance, and kills plenty of innocents in his constant battles with other crime lords that operate out of Underbridge and the Marches (he's Neutral Evil).
As such, the Princess is afforded a certain level of respect and recognition in the city, even to the point where she has representation on the Council of Ushers (indirectly, but everybody in the "know" knows where his loyalties lie, and no, it's not Pellerin).
Any or all of which might have been useful information for me to know before you let me make a character who worked for her, as this was all the official Paizo material I had to go on:
Although the market welcomes all comers, the ever-changing crowd, shouts of exotic traders, and generally raucous bustle make the place a nightmare for the local watch to patrol. Fortunately, the Princesss of the Market, Sabriyya Kalmeralm (LN female rogue 12), takes care of policing her own. The daughter of the first Prince of the Market, Nazir Kalmeralm, who disappeared nearly 28 years ago, Sabriyya is well-loved by most of the bazaar's regular traders and her "court" -- a sizable gang of toughs and money collectors (N male human fighters 2). A passionate woman in her late forties, her quick wit, aristocratic bearing, and silver tongue are as famed as her fiery temper and unforgiving memory. While many in the city still see her as little more than an exceedingly public gang lord, those who frequent the chaotic maze of stalls and shops know the service she provides.
No way from that almost-entirely glowing write-up of the positive effect she has on the city for me to know my PC would end up having to be either a criminal thug or a gullible pawn and, either way, unable to participate in the gamethread as an equal.
I'm sorry but that quote says to me what Nazard just said about the Princess of the Market... obviously your interpretation differs.
Anyhow, I'm NG and get along with most folks as long as there's a ready supply of pastries & I can bury my nose in a book :)
Yay! Megan's back. I wasn't sure if you had seen that I've (finally) shifted the focus back on Calatin and Awgin. Feel free to jump in any time.
He slips out (assuming you let him).
He's clearly a fiend and up to no good. Don't let him get away. Kill him! ;)
What did you guys do with Robal? Still chaining him out outside of taverns as you move from place to place?
Left him with Khismia? Ha ha!
MSI HQ should be more or less on the way between the Cathedral and rag's End. We could drop him off on the way down.
Is that OK Nazard?
SO did Khismia come with us or not?
Leaving Robal at MSI is fine.
SO did Khismia come with us or not?
She didn't have the security clearance to attend the secret meeting, so no, she's gone.
Heward had asked her along. Hargreaves wasn't on the original invitation (at Stafford's place) either, but he came.
Phillip works for the Watch. Khismia works for a criminal organization.
Heward asked her along anyway. It wasn't clear the meeting was Watch business. Heward had it pegged as wimpy Councillor needs hand held on a G job.
Then presume she said no.
As information: the college has now made me full-time as of right now. So I am now eating my lunch as I type...
I am going to use one of my websites to hold a core of PDFs for role-playing purposes, to get around the 'at work, books at home' syndrome, and so maintain a reasonable presence here.
Also, I am running for ENnies Judge this year. Voting starts at the end of the week. Your support would be appreciated :)
How would I vote? And will the Ennies take away from you posting here? :-)