I too was enjoying the tests until this one. I realized that there was a riddle to be found, but with a character with a 7 intelligence, I didn't feel it right to try to figure things out too much. As it was, I picked the eighth potion figuring the potion in the eight o'clock position would be the easiest to grab, since he has a heavy shield on his right arm, then the seventh, then a different one as Emilian tried to be random and finally beige.
I agree that it was more of a player riddle than a character riddle. It wouldn't have helped Emilian, but you could at least have allowed Knowledge: Religion to help some characters deduce things. There were two solutions to the riddle, but still only one method (thinking) to solve it. Why not allow Fortitude saves to reduce the effects of the potions? At least that would allow the brute strength characters their own approach.
I'm thrilled Emilian is still in it, though, and here's hoping Gaza consents to another healing burst before whatever attacks them arrives.
By the way, did anything come of the PM I sent you concerning the spikes in the chain room?
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I asked about Desna and asked to roll knowledge religion and got that everyone knew about Desna and it was common enough but not that a month was named after her. It might be reasonable that the DC was 10 or less to know that Desna had a month named after her.
Is it possible that different amounts of information were given to different contestants?
I don't agree there. Maybe only 2 of the 11 people have low Fort saves. Everyone else has high saves. Then it becomes less a test of reasoning and more who has the best Fort save. Yes, you grabbed a spike.
Information was given on a per question basis. If you didn't ask anything, then nothing was given.
As for the months, we play on Golarion, the PbP made that quite clear. Nobody ever commented on any of the previous 3 trials when the pedestals referenced the 3 different months, what is that they're talking about? That led me to believe that as a player you were familiar with the calendar. Like Catelyn said, when you saw the 12 hours of the clock, that should have led you to believe a calendar was involved. Other than Cirnos, no one else asked about the months of the year.
It's hard to make riddle-based tests like those that actually test the characters and not the players, because intelligence and reasoning are the one thing we can't simulate being higher than our own. We can use the rules to simulate swimming through ice water, even if none of us could actually do such a thing, but letting dice rolls decide the outcome for our characters of a reasoning riddle never feels satisfying, so we're back to the players having to figure it out, and some players just aren't good at riddles (which says nothing of those people's intelligence).
I'd say the biggest difficulty is that, in order not to give anything away, you right from the beginning shot down so many means by which the plays could get more information, that you gave the impression that there was nothing to do but trust to luck and hope for the 1 in 12 chance.
I think this was always going to be the hardest trial to pull off from a design standpoint. I say we don't dwell on could've should'ves and enjoy the rest of the show.
I agree that a fort save shouldn't be the main point of the test, but perhaps one for half damage could have been allowed. Then even a high buff character with no brains would still go down by guessing randomly. As for the clock and the months hinting towards the solution, I can make no argument against that. It is absolutely true, I just missed it. That is why I made my sea-lawyer argument about in character/out of character knowledge.
Ha! I just had to go back and check because I could have sworn that the third trial called Zon-Kuthon by name instead of Kuthona. I guess it was just all the Kuthonites in the group messing with my brain.
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Information was given on a per question basis. If you didn't ask anything, then nothing was given.
As for the months, we play on Golarion, the PbP made that quite clear. Nobody ever commented on any of the previous 3 trials when the pedestals referenced the 3 different months, what is that they're talking about? That led me to believe that as a player you were familiar with the calendar. Like Catelyn said, when you saw the 12 hours of the clock, that should have led you to believe a calendar was involved. Other than Cirnos, no one else asked about the months of the year.
Lucendar,
I do not mean to argue with you. You asked for opinion so I am sharing mine. Please do not feel the need to rebut all my points, but if you do not want opinion do not ask. I would not be happy about being eliminated regardless of how it happened, but it would have been cooler for Justified to have been taken down by a Smite Good from Cirnos, instead of dieing because the player of Justified did not know the Golarion calendar.
In the end its 100% your call who keeps playing with you. We all knew this. I think I have something to offer the right campaign so I'll look for another game.
I am not arguing with you Justified, just giving you my point of view.
Is this fifth trial to be the "bloodbath" where we might exploit the Performance Combat rules, or did you mean the PVP at the end?
At the end, if necessary.
I think Emilian hit the nail on the head here. When a character dies due to bad rolls, we can blame lady luck rather than the GM, but when it's just us we can blame the GM for our own lack of knowledge. I don't think it was fair game-wise per se, as I really grew under the impression that we were completely alone in guessing, but the comparisons were drawn and were made clear, so it certainly wasn't impossible.
'Guess this'll remind me from now on never to take what seems like "fluff" as just setting; it can affect the game drastically.
Now if only my own players would realize that. Seriously, I have an NPC who walks around, knows all the answers, shows up in the nick of time always, leaves whenever combat rears its ugly head, and even once seemingly kidnapped a PC who remembered nothing[i] from the past day or so and none of the PC's saw it fit to question her - not once! I asked them multiple times, I practically rubbed their noses in the fact and they just sat by like big dumb complacent morons. [i]*sigh There's something about roleplaying that can turn very, very intelligent people into drooling infants.
Heh, just telling stories to distract from the inner pain of missing out on another PbP.
Has anyone else conversed with the baron while we have been inside btw? I got a cryptic message from lucendar titled "in your mind" to my whispered conversations with him. If you want i'll quote it out in here later so you can see what i asked and what i got back.
Just fed the baby and i'm in bed on my phone so i can't access my pms at the moment. 3;30am here in the uk so my partner would be displeased if i were typing loudly!
You have all made good points. A frequent player of mine in a few of my PbPs commented that while he thought the test was fair, he PMed me that he would have failed it also because he is not familiar with the Golarion calendar. The fact that Justified stated he did not own any of the campaign setting books also moved me, as well as the player/PC knowledge argument. The PRD also doesn't list the Golarion calendar. I can understand how that can leave a sour taste in a player's mouth and I see you are all bringing these arguments because you want to continue the game. So based on all that, I am reasonable so I will give the three of you a DC 15 Intelligence check for your character to have figured out the god/calendar connection. Roll it in the thread. If you fail, that's the end of it and we can all sleep well. Succeed and welcome back! That's the best I can do.
Nope.
So, could I take a twenty on that?
Hehehe, jk. Can't wait to see who wins. I'm hoping for a huge battle royale. Thanks anyway for the chance, Lucendar.
Nooo!!! You still owe Cirnos that favor!
Sure, I'll get to that right after I escape from the bowels of hell.
Being a gm myself,
First, You should not have auto-discounted any int based skills, players can draw odd connections and asking a good question might get a clue.
Second, Requiring setting knowledge is fine for this case, because the players can look up things on a wiki somewhere(what I did) but not for at the table where such is not easy and very time consuming. However a k local should always be available for such basic things that the char knows even when players dont.
Third, Always allow a work around based purely on char. I always give my players three int checks, each at increasing dcs. Each check is made and dealt with by itself before the next one.
If successful they get a clue, but the rewards get diminished.
It encourages players to figure it out on their own but allows a player with no clue to play it safe and see if their char can figure it out.
Fourth, The colors should have been clearly named, you might catch seven colors of the rainbow but the only colors I looked at was to see if Desna had a favored color.
A good site if you want better puzzles,
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule
Thanks, but we can move past this now.
I did notice that the first three trials were named after months and this one was named after the goddess. But I have never even seen the months of Golarion listed anywhere and had no way of knowing what they were. I do not own books on the world setting.
I guess its somewhat sour grapes but I find it less than satisfying that you tested my in game character on my ooc knowledge of a game system. I am amazed that so many people responded correctly. I salute them, and would like to hear how they all came to that conclusion.
I wish everyone a good game. Maybe we will have a chance to play together again.
The fact that there was no mention of the number of the month just jumped to me. So I went for it. I indicated that I was taking potion with the number of the month corresponding to Desna.
For what is worth - I do not think any of the challenges were hard. GM clearly gave us at least two different ways to solve each room/trial, plus I believe that he has shown quite a lot of "openness" in accepting our (not always constructive) criticism.
For the last trial specifically, I have to admit that I could not get the reference to the primary or rainbow colors, since I am not an english native speaker (and believe me, I did search quite a lot for potential colors combinations), while the other solution (month related to Desna), was so obvious, at least to me, that I almost did not take it, thinking it to be too simple. Mind you, I have a very limited knowledge about Golarion, I run my campaign in Forgotten Realms, while I play in home-made setting - and it took me less than 30 seconds to type Wiki Golarion Calendar, and get a reference to the month.
The GM can probably testify, that I had dozens of other ideas as well, but they were probably too complex (unnecessarily complicated) for such a simple trial. True, maybe he should have allowed you a INT/WIS check to get the "connection" to the months, but guys - this is not a tabletop, it's PbP. You have like at least 10 minutes to think of your next move, and prepare accordingly, sometimes even hours. You have all resources available to you on the net, why just not try to use them?
In previous 4 trials I have watched us complain on his "cruel and hard" tests, but let's get things into perspective, OK?
1. Game is called Survival - we all knew very well to what we are applying for, it is harsh, and it should remain so. Usually I really dislike this kind of games, but in this specific case, I entered and I truly expected everyone to behave so. Instead, I get "friends" from turn one (and all of us are convicted killers, mind you), people risking and saving each other and acting like "goody two shoes" right from the start. I can understand that someone is taking risks to save the cleric, for example, it makes sense even for convicted killers, but helping each other out on every occasion....OK, maybe I got the setting wrong.
2. Each trial was fairly easy, at least IMHO. You have maybe noticed that Haterivet had very easy dice rolls (or sometimes did not have them at all), that's because I tried to use his brains. His INT stat is average, I agree, but his WIS is pretty high, and I have made sure with GM that all of my proposed course of actions are in line with my character (i.e. not proposing solutions suited for a genius, when Hateriver is obviously not one)
3.GM tried to remind some of you, not very subtly sometimes that you do not have to rush in. And yet, usually our typical course of action when entering new trial was "BANZAI!"...for some, this is totally in character, so I have no issues, but for some others...
4. Back to the issue of cooperation - saving everyone attitude (leave no man/halfling/whatever behind) is nice and OK, but wouldn't you feel a bit bad (hypocritical) later on, when after the fifth trial, you are forced either to kill, or be killed by the person you have rescued earlier. Already there are several allegiances creating a situation that either 7-8 of you have to go out (probably bot happening, no matter what), or some of you will be in a situation to either "give up" on someone, or die by his/hers side, leaving only 2-3 survivors.
Oooops, too long rant. Sorry for that guys, usually I am not such a "b..." as I may sound here, but for me this game should be dark and very gritty, with no heroes (OK maybe just one), and most of us anti-heroes. For now, it does not look that way, at least from my perspective.
And btw. @Morgthar, you're not the only Kuthite left ;-)
I agree with a lot of what Haterivet has said. I got onto the safe ground at zero hp and at the start of the fourth trial i had 14.
Now i might be at fault for some of the "friendly" feel to the game but i'm also one of the only two people out of ten left alive who has actually killed a PC. I certainly wouldn't have saved Kor from his spikey death, i made alliances with both Kazmuk and Varos who died soon after and i'm sticking with my Quain et al alliance all the way through because at the start they had me bang to rights dead and didn't strike. If anyone deserves my loyalty its Quain.
Don't forget that after this whoever survives needs to work as part of a team, i'm willing to work with anyone but i know some people are more trustworthy than others.
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One last comment as I move on. Since I did not know my player knowledge was being tested I did not look outside the game. Before reading these posts I would have considered it unfair to go to wiki to solve an in-game puzzle. I would not let my players do that at a table so I was not willing to do that in this game.
Its always hard to keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate. I may know how to take down a troll, but would my character know? He is first level and has no ranks in the correct knowledge skill, so I would say no, and the alchemist fire at his belt goes unused until the wizard in the party makes the knowledge check and calls for it.
Sorry to slow stuff down... been VERY hectic at work.. I am putting out fires as they spark up, will have a post up here shortly!
Don't forget that after this whoever survives needs to work as part of a team, i'm willing to work with anyone but i know some people are more trustworthy than others.
Obviously its those 'Chaotic' folks, holders of vows, keepers of oaths!
AWW COME ON!
Sorry to slow stuff down... been VERY hectic at work.. I am putting out fires as they spark up, will have a post up here shortly!
Obviously its those 'Chaotic' folks, holders of vows, keepers of oaths!Don't forget that after this whoever survives needs to work as part of a team, i'm willing to work with anyone but i know some people are more trustworthy than others.
Chaotic doesn't mean i have to be a dishonourable scum bag, it just means that i don't have to take crap from LE antipaladins who can't keep their team alive :p
Working as a team is the time that you expect a chaotic character to behave slightly lawfully, at the end of the day if we are going to actually work together after the trials then everyone has to show at least a little trustworthyness.
Lucimar!
Lucimar.
Then Kwin goes quiet.
Congrats to those who were able to un-die. I wish I had thought to beg for mercy when I misunderstood the situation and believed I was standing in a defensive position outside the training grounds with only teammates around me. I look forward to seeing how the fight to the death goes.
From the PRD
Chaotic Neutral: A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions.
Sounds to me like someone you can trust in a pinch... To help himself.
I do realize nobody "begged for mercy". Sour grapes and all that.
Kor, having to assign a target for your Dodge feat is 3.5. In PF, it's a flat +1 bonus to Ac against all attacks (as long as you're not flat-footed).
Kor, having to assign a target for your Dodge feat is 3.5. In PF, it's a flat +1 bonus to Ac against all attacks (as long as you're not flat-footed).
So it is. I'm still making the transition. Thank you for the correction.
Bleh, initiative obviously do not like me too much, since I am playing after this guy. Until then, similar to others Dodge (which someone properly pointed out does not have to be activated towards specific enemy), and.....surprise, surprise, yep, you guessed it - total defence ;-)
See you all foks in the morning
1 down, 9 to go!
True, but I'm willing to risk it...you have to earn your survival!
Lucendar has no mercy!!*
*Note: He almost one shot a party member in the surprise round of our first encounter... no one even got to roll initative and already 0 hp.
Then proceeded to deal 21 points to our battle cleric... Woe to poor Gregor.... never was the same.
Agreed Cirnos. In our LoF game, I think we are averaging a PC death each level, not to mention several near TPKs. Ah, good times!
OH MAN! You are in THAT LoF game??
I have been reading that.. you poor souls....
See if you can get a discount on res diamonds, or scroll of reincarnate if you buy in bulk!
This is how rumors get started! *grumbles* Damn gossiping PbPers!
That description of chaotic neutral is a good description of the enlightened self interest with which menas has acted with throughout this game. If you think i should avoid teamwork, run off alone and die then your describing chaotic stupid.
Not saying you are describing that but saying a chaotic person cannot also be honourable is very close minded and probably the cause of all the alignment threads and arguments we see and hear about. You just have to follow your own code of ethics and honour, which i know i owe to Quain as he could quite simple have killed me.
Funny thing is alignment is often misunderstood, had a gm once ask me why my LN char was breaking the law. lol.
Though I grant that last time I read alignments was 3.5
On my way back from work again. Just to clarify my post about acting inside the initiative order, its the first round of combat so its not that important. But in the next few rounds if Gaza goes before Hat and Mor and Cir acts before me it could get confusing.
No complaint, just that its better to work around it before it starts to be a problem than try to fix it if for example cirnos attacks before me and kills the gnoll so i miss out on damage.
Waiting to post can be bad sometimes, like fridays for me, I get a small window of opportunity to read and post if I dont post, then I am waiting till my lunch break sat.(sometimes I get sat morning but not always)
The dice roller is with me, GO TEAM TRIP!!!!!
To be honest Gaza i don't mind waiting around other peoples posting schedules, at least we can chat in the discussion thread if we're waiting a while. As long as we know why we're waiting i think its something people have to learn to deal with for pbp.