I'm good. The only thing I forgot was the halfling slingbut I'm good now.
Morgrym is ready to go.
On an unrelated note, are we determined to head straight for the bandits lair? I doubt they will be mounting any kind of retaliation any time soon. At least thats what Deekin believes. Why don't we explore the Greenbelt a bit, as per our charter, and face them when we are a bit stronger. That way we can do some side quests too.
Or if we do think they will come for revenge, lets fight them at Olegs. It is after all a fort.
What say you?
We may be able to catch them now with the pants down. If they come after us at the fort, yes, it is a fort, but I doubt they'll engage in a siege. They can watch the fort and ambush us when we come out. If the bandits we killed don't come back, they may come, and if we're away when Oleg and Svetlana are alone, I doubt they'll be lenient on them.
Wow, there was a whole discussion in here and for whatever reason, it didn't show up in my unread messages. Weird.
Anyway, I think Gerran's ready to go, unless there's something any of you guys see that he's lacking. The only conundrum I can think of right now is whether to keep deadly aim, or switch it out for power attack. Seems that Morgrym, Caderyn (sp?), Wallop, and Gerran are melee; Marius, Aerynne, Scraps, and Gerran are ranged. I was thinking that the greatsword will likely be doing enough damage on its own, and it might be handy to front-load the damage with the bow as much as possible, but I'd like to hear other thoughts, if you've got 'em.
As far as when/whether we go after the bandits, I agree with Marius - let's go take 'em out quickly before they have time to bring in reinforcements or anything like that.
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Aerynne wants to go as soon as possible. It's two birds with one stone: Oleg and Svetlana get their stuff back and are safe, and they don't have to fear bandit retaliation while they're exploring.
I also don't think that I need to change anything.
@Gerran, I think it depends on whether you want to be more archery focused or melee focused. The forum favourite "switch hitter" style of ranger, going in the middle of both styles, tends to get Power Attack or Point Blank Shot first, picking up melee feats from the level-up feats and archery feats from your combat style.
EDIT: @Tassadan, what time is it? If it's early in the day (say, midday or earlier) Aerynne's not going to like waiting around just for the wizard spells.
Actually, switch-hitter doesn't usually get Point Blank Shot - it's usually a prerequisite for many ranged combat feats, but the beauty of the ranger archery combat style is that you can bypass prerequisites. At level 2, for example, I can pick up Rapid Shot without having PBS. Deadly Aim is one of the only ranged combat feats that you'd spend an actual feat for.
Still, yeah - the choice is between Deadly Aim and Power Attack. Level 2 will get me Rapid Shot, level 3 will get me either Deadly Aim or Power Attack (whichever I don't get at level 1, obviously).
Okay, so another arguement for not leaving right away: I know Morgrym acts tough but he still only has one hit point. As loath as I am to admit it, I could go down to a random encounter on the way to the bandits. That's not even mentioning that the leader is supposed to be even stronger than Happs. I'd rather not face this encounter at the whopping two hit points that I will have tomorrow. And I know that not having magical healing is a nuisance right now, but it's going to be downright dangerous if someone actually goes negative.
Fair enough - let's go see the potion guy nearby and see what we can get there to heal up and provide later healing, then go?
I may be flogging a dead horse here and I know this is meta gaming but this next encounter is bound to be tougher than the one we just had. Who sends their best guys on an errand? Plus, we will be fighting on their turf. Those 2 'near' deaths we experienced at the hands of the weaker bunch on tactically superior ground ... well they might be a lot nearer next time.
I am having trouble finding the post where we were told how much xp we got. I remember it's medium track, but not the amount. I'll try to find it, but if anyone knows off hand, it'd be appreciated.
A note on Scraps INT score:
If I am reading the rules correctly, goblins only speak Goblin and need a 12 INT to speak Common. Scraps therefore has a 12 INT.
Thing is, I don't want to RP her with a 12 INT, but rather, as a regular goblin, who gets -2 to Int. I therefore have RPed her as counting on her fingers and speaking with poor grammar.
Do I have any options other than keeping her at a 12 INT? If I have to do so, is there any reason I can't RP her as I like?
Left to my own devices, I'd put her INT at 8, more normal for goblins, and raise her WIS (common sense) or CHA (good for her backstory) instead.
That's the only change I would make to Scraps. I pick up PBS next level and then start working my way up the chain as a rogue.
@ Scraps: There's always another option: You could put a skill rank in linguistics. You will have oodles of skill ranks once you start taking levels in rogue, and can certainly spare one early on for this skill (which will later become a class skill!). You seem to have a rank in Kn: Local which I'd consider less than necessary.
Also, you each received 245 xp for the bandit encounter and dealing with the two survivors. A note that this is almost 100 xp higher per person than the Kingmaker book designates per-person. I do award roleplaying xp, and I think you guys have been doing a marvelous job of staying within the bounds of your races, classes, alignments, and backstories while simultaneously moving the campaign forward. This is no small feat, and I'm extremely impressed.
The only thing I'm changing is Marius' familiar.
I changed Gerran's alignment and Deity (Cayden Caillen->Erastil, CG->NG). Both are, I think, more fitting for his role and the way I'm playing him.
I will go ahead and keep Deadly Aim, since once I get Rapid Shot I should be able to do some fairly serious ranged damage (assuming we're faced by barns, approaching broad-side).
Okay, so I went and made a few more changes. Gerran is going to be a front-line melee guy when the time comes, so I'm sticking his FCB into HP instead of skills. I removed Kn:Dungeoneering (really, when would he have learned that, anyway?), and increased his HP by one.
He also grabbed that breastplate from the loot, which bumps his AC up to 19 from 16...and hurts his stealth, but still. He's keeping his Studded Leather armor for when/if he needs the stealthiness.
- EDIT -
I realize that I have now taken two fairly expensive bits of equipment from the pile. I added my old bow to the pile, which will help, but will also gladly forego any gold from this loot (or the money from selling it), to pay the group back in part.
The more effective Gerran is early on the better off we'll be, I think. Marius will be aiming for scrolls, scribing new spells, and eventually a pearl of power and Int headband. Early purchases will be somewhat incidental.
I have a couple of things to add/discuss.
1) I went ahead and made a loot form. It can be found here.
This is how it works - enter the retail value of an item from the SRD and all other numbers should be filled in.
Share Value lists the value of each item for each player. Your total is listed at the bottom.
Share for Items multiplies this value times the number of items we have.
If someone wants to buy an item, add the Share Value for that item to your total Share for Items to represent the loot they give you.
If you want to buy an item, subtract the Purchase Cost from your total Share for Items. This is the amount you must pay to the group to keep the item. If this value is negative, you must put money into the pot.
I hope that is not too confusing. I recommend that one person keep track of it, so please see below:
I can not keep track of the loot in-game because Scraps is bad at math. I can not keep track of loot out-of-game because I am a medical student and do not have time. My classes begin Feb 25 or so and once they begin, I study 16 hours a day. I will continue to read and post once a day, but will have no additional time for anything else, no matter how small or inconsequential. I really want to keep playing because the stress of school is almost debilitating and I hope this will help with at least a little of it.
I hope this has been helpful, despite my abdication of future responsibility.
I am going to change Scraps Int to 8. This will give him two 8s, in Str and Int, two stats that all goblins are weak in. Please don't see this as min/maxing, it's just roleplaying.
Scraps is a him? Oops! With that avatar you chose I thought he was a she. BAHAHAHA! 8)
I'm sure there is a song in there somewhere ... Johnny Cash and/or Aerosmith come to mind immediately
Heh - looking at the character sheet, coupled with the avatar, I seriously doubt it's a him...:-P
Scraps is a her. I mispoke.
I'm a him, she's a her.
I don't usually get confused on these things because I don't think of my characters as myself. My friend was talking to me as I was trying to finish that email however, and I was trying to listen and speak at the same time.
1 vial of Alchemists fire
4 sets of leather armor
1 dagger
1 Composite Longbow (+1 str)
4 longbows
40 arrows
4 short swords
I had worked out everything according to the excel file and don't really want to do it again. I'll let someone else tell me how much money we all get. I nominate Gerran for that task since he is the one wanting items out of the stack. I personally am not worried about specifics, and simply want to know how much money I have.
According to my table, that would be 94.77 gold + 20% of the cost difference between the bows. That is not based on the 280 gold, simply upon my tables and the SRD.
Please advise
If nobody else is going to take the other Alchemist's Fire, I'll take it.
Yes let's not over analyze the loot distribution. So long as over the long run it balances out I don't imagine there will be any complaints.
So looking at your spreadsheet, scraps, you haven't accounted for the fact that a composite bow with a strength rating increases its worth by 100 gp for every +1 to the strength rating. Therefore, a composite longbow with a +1 strength rating costs 200 gp, not 100. The formulae also don't seem to take multiples of an item into account, only calculating value for one of any given item. Here's my count (assuming someone takes the other Alchemist's fire) :
4 sets of leather armor: 10x4/2= 20 gp
1 dagger : 2/2= 1gp
1 Composite Longbow (+1 str): 200/2=100 gp
4 longbows: 75x4/2=150
20 arrows: 1/2= .5gp
4 short swords: 10x4/2= 20 gp
10 days worth of trail rations: .5x10/2=2.5 gp
20+1+100+150+.5+20+2.5= 294 gp
I admittedly had thought things such as the dagger and the arrows were of lesser consequence, and had left them out of my first calculation. Now subtract the 20 gp for Wallop's sling-staff and you get 274 gp. Also, you can add the 75 gp that the bandits had in cash, as you're not selling gold to Oleg (that would be redundant).
In total that gives the entire party a 369 gp gain in total liquid assets from this part of the adventure, 74 of which is in Oleg store credit. Any questions?
While I appreciate the effort that went into the spreadsheet, I think that, at least at lower levels, we're going to have some problems with it. Specifically, if we go strictly by a "you have to pay the party for it" rule, Gerran would have to pay over 200gp for the two items he took from the pile, which, even trading in his old bow, is quite a bit beyond his means.
The bow is 300gp (100gp for a base composite longbow, +100 per strength point), the breastplate is 200gp. That's 500gp retail value. We would get 250gp from Oleg for those two items, so Gerran would have to pay each party member (250gp/6) 41gp 6sp 7cp out of his cut, for a total of 208gp 3sp 5cp. He has his old bow, which has a retail value of 200gp, so could be sold for 100gp, which means he would only owe a total of 108gp 3sp 5cp...but he only has 4gp now, and he would only get a little over 48gp from the sale of everything else.
I think, as Wallop suggested before (assuming I read it correctly), that rather than try to make things excruciatingly fair, we should let party members have their pick of the loot (within reason). If possible, pick the gear out in character - if someone has an issue with it, provide reasons in character as well.
If it turns out that we can't behave ourselves and need guidelines, for whatever reason, I propose these:
- gear should be used by those that can use it best
- in those cases where more than one person can use it equally well, the one for whom it is the biggest improvement should get it
- in those cases where it would be an equal improvement, the players that are interested in the item can:
-- work it out themselves (preferably in character), or
-- choose to put it to a party vote (possibly in character), or
-- choose to roll for it.
- if a piece of equipment replaces old gear, then unless there is a compelling reason to keep the old gear, it is up for grabs
- if nobody claims an item, it will be added to the loot and will be sold.
In all of this, I am assuming that we want the higher-end equipment to be used rather than sold because someone can't afford to "purchase" it from the party. Ultimately, this will be to the benefit of the party.
Personally, I thought we all did fairly well with this loot. Unless there are objections (in character or out), I'd say let's just split the proceeds up evenly between us.
Gerran has described in great detail the system that seems to work best. I've always called it 'the honour system' because its based on need not on greed.
If things ever get unpleasant, we could later implement a point buy system where the DM awards 'honour points' for heroic deeds, solving a puzzle, RP, or pretty much any act that a player does that benefits the story and/or party. These are basically the same as the hero point system described on the pfsrd except you spend them differently. Players use those points as currency to spend in an auction for loot items that are contested or wanted by more than one player. I'd like to think it would never come to such as management of this system is clunky on a PBP game but it does work.
On an unrelated note, I'm not comfortable with my sling staff being paid for out of the party loot haul. I will buy that out of Wallop's share. So tack on another 20 to the party haul before you divvy up.
Take the second Alchemist's Fire, Aerynne! :)
I'm in agreement with Gerran on the loot distribution. I've done it both ways in the past, and they both work just fine. Just keep in mind that we may want to discuss cash flow later on when Marius is going to want to be buying and scribing scrolls. Perhaps some utility and transportation scrolls can be paid for out of party funds or contributed to by the party members. I say that because that's an area of cost that's least likely to be offset by random loot, unlike weapons, armor and Wondrous items.
Indeed, as I have mentioned before, we should set up a distribution system that divides all liquidated and shared assets by 7 instead of 6. That would give us one full share of assets designated as the 'party purse' for the purchase of such things as scrolls, potions, wands, bribes, remove curse/disease/resurrection, and other consumables that are for party benefit. I'd suggest that you making scrolls for the party most definitely qualifies for this.
Just my 2 CPs worth anyways.
Works for me.
369gp / 7 = 52gp 7sp 1cp each, with 3cp left over, which I suggest we just leave in party loot.
If we split the 74gp store credit 6 ways (doesn't make sense to have party loot limited to store credit, imho), that means that 12gp 3sp 3cp of that will be store credit.
So each party member will walk away with:
40gp 3sp 8cp in coins
12gp 3sp 3cp in store credit
Party loot is now:
52gp 7sp 4cp
Do we have a volunteer for who is going to be the keeper of the party loot?
So, does Oleg have any ~40gp gems just lying around gathering dust, or are we each gonna be carrying an extra 5 lbs around?
Also, if we do trade in gems, can they be bought for "face value" and used in place of currency, or are there moneychangers that will skim off the top when gems are bought/sold?
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Suggestion: we take one of the horses with us without a rider, fit them with some saddlebags and put everything we don't need to carry in there, coins or otherwise. We captured 5 horses, and at least Aerynne and Gerran started with horses, so there should be one left over. We might not even need an extra horse; most of Aerynne's non-essential gear is kept in her horse's saddlebags, and the horse can carry plenty of weight.
Morgrym also started with a horse that he uses as a pack animal to carry his supplies. He would be willing to volunteer it's service to the group.
Marius still has his mule too.
My hesitation about having Morgrym stay behind is that he wont get to do anything while you all are away killing bandits.
And, since it is relevant and humorous: It's pretty much always a bad idea
My hesitation about having Morgrym stay behind is that he wont get to do anything while you all are away killing bandits.
And, since it is relevant and humorous: It's pretty much always a bad idea
While I concur, I will be able to make things interesting for Morgrym while you all are gone if that's what you decide to do. I won't penalize a player for roleplaying. That's just bad GMing.
Gerran's intent was to get Morgrym to realize the consequences of his decision, and to hint that the party might very well die without his help. He doesn't want to leave him behind, and if someone feels that surprise isn't worth leaving him behind, he'll probably fold.
I was under the impression that someone else mentioned buying items from the party as part of loot. It was not my idea and is not the way I usually play.
With that said, I usually use a system sort of like Gerran's when playing with friends that I've known for a long time, which we aren't.
I have no problem going with that system if/until it doesn't seem fair. If that time comes, I will voice my unhappiness.
I am prepared to have to purchase my magic weapons/ammunition since I went with an unusual weapon. Tassadan may switch out some of the magic bows for magic guns, time will tell.
As to the excel file, I assure you that it took multiples of items into account. I stated in one of my posts that I did not know the difference in cost between a +1 STR bow and a +2 STR bow and that this bit of information would need to be factored in.
However, as the group does not want to use that method of dividing loot, I don't see the point of spending a lot of time explaining it. If it is useful to you at some time in the future, then feel free to use it. If not, it all works out the same to me.
As I stated in my previous email, I am not available for additional duties such as tracking loot. The only reason I undertook the job of creating the excel file was that it appeared that we were all standing in a circle saying, "When someone takes responsibility for loot, then..."
So, just to be clear, I am concerned that Gerran's system could be applied unfairly, but could just as easily work out great, depending on all of us. I certainly do not want to raise a fuss at this juncture. I will not take it personally if we do/don't use the excel file and I only put something like 30 minutes into it, so it's hardly the end of the world.
I'm pretty relaxed about everything right now. I will let you know if I have complaints when I have a complaint I wish to make.
I hope everyone is enjoying roleplaying and not taking things too seriously. Seems like the fight is getting pretty heated, I hope that's all in-game.
Just want to warn everyone not to paint themselves too far into a corner. A little conflict is fine, but this argument has gone on for almost a week and I'm sure we all want to progress at some point.
Yeah, I was a little surprised at Morgrym’s response. I hope I haven't pushed any real life buttons. It is just role play.
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I'm not personally bothered by Morgrym (OOC), although Aerynne is very much pissed off at him and his "my way or the highway" attitude to EVERYTHING so far. I'm having fun, but I would like to get going somewhere IC soon; as much as I enjoy the roleplay, there's adventure out there that I'd like to partake in...
Honestly, I did not mean for this to take up so much time. I thought an initial objection was neccassary to the idea of riding horses. Morgrym did walk all the way here in the first place. However, I was trying to lead into a "well, I'll do it but I won't like it" kind of situation until Wallop had his outburst. It's not my intent to derail the group, so I'm sorry if I've done so.
I took the opportunity to make some changes to Scraps. I had made some mistakes in making her and she's completely correct now. Don't worry, the mistakes worked against me, so it's all good.
Changes
1. I had taken Rapid Reload as a feat when she rcv'd it free as part of her archetype
2. I had given her a 12 Int when I wanted it lower. I had wanted to take it to 8, but if I did, she couldn't speak common until 2nd level, so I made it 10. I boosted her Cha to 10 in return, to make her cuter and more self-confident.
I assume that taking a point in Linguistics is not enough to get a language - but that your intelligence penalty can't knock out that point? If I'm wrong, please let me know. 1 skill rank -1 int modifier = 0 linguistics skill. Do I still get a language?
3. I converted Kobold Bushwacker to Goblin Bushwacker in Pathfinder-sCoreForge so I can update completely in that program. It was a bit tricky, but I had an 8 hour layover in Trinidad.
4. I respent her starting gold to give her leather instead of studded leather.
Something that kind of bugs me
A dose of gunpowder is 10g. A bullet is 1g. If I make them myself, they cost 10% or 11 silver. If I wrap them in a scrap of cloth and apply some non-magical wax they become alchemical cartridges.
If I make an alchemical cartridge, I pay 50% cost instead of 10%. The price jumps from 11 silver to 60 silver. 49 silver for a scrap of cloth and a bit of non-magical wax.
I think including paper cartridges in alchemical cartridges is kind of lame. I'm going to look on the boards and see if that has been changed or house ruled by other DMs. It just seems really harsh to me.
You can find her updated character sheet here.
A little question
The character creation rules state that we can't have an attribute over 19, counting racial adjustments. Most races have +2 adjustments but goblins take 2 negatives to have +4, instead of two +2s and a -2. I have assumed you still wanted me limited to 19, but I would take a 21 dex if allowed. I don't need the to hit, but the AC and skill point would be nice. 8)
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Scraps, you get a language per point in Linguistics, it's not related to your Int score or the skill modifier at all. The 0 in Linguistics just means you're bad at everything else the skill does (forgery, interpretation, etc...)
As for the alchemical cartridges, I think the cost increase is fair, not because of any sort of realism but because they give you much better action economy... they should cost a lot more.
Yeah - from the CRB, under the Linguistics skill:
Learn a Language: Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language.
Seems pretty straightforward to me :-)
As far as the RP stuff goes, as long as we get around to the bandits fairly quickly, I'm good with whatever (though I was a little concerned that it wasn't all RP frustration...).
Okay then, I've upgraded Scraps again.
ST 8
DX 19
CO 14
IN 8
WI 14
CH 12
Quick and weak like all goblins, she can eat about anything and still counts on her fingers. She's got a lot of common sense though and is pretty cute for a goblin.
I'm happy with her. I think she's a fun character.
For what it's worth, I agree (though Gerran hasn't come around to my way of thinking, yet...).
Oh, as far as RP vs non RP frustration, I'm completely fine with our current group and am enjoying the campaign. If I do ever take Morgrym too far, please send me a PM or other OOC message and let me know. But dwarves as a race are stubborn, righteous, and abrasive and Morgrym is even more so.
Scraps, I like the rebuild so far, but I can't see your character sheet. It's giving me a 404 error at the moment, so if you could either fix that or post scraps in a stat block that would be fantastic.
I agree with Aerynne that cartridges are not only a significant advantage and are therefore more expensive, but by their very nature they require alchemy, not just more materials.
The "no over 19 after racial mods" is also fully in effect for ability scores, as I used that to mitigate any potential min-maxing of characters that rely on only one or two choice ability scores. Also, this way you get a major boost in power at 4th level. Fear not, I'm not the "rocks fall, everybody save or die" type of GM. I will not throw you against challenges you cannot handle unless there's a specific purpose for it. I won't railroad, but it is in the nature of my position to manipulate.
As for the roleplaying, feel free to continue as long as remember that it's just a game. As far as I can tell, nobody's real-life feelings are getting hurt. If anyone should ever be made uncomfortable by another player's words or actions, please let me know by PM and I will do what I can to fix the situation. As of yet, I believe we are fine on this front.
Play on, players.
I'm fine with my character and all of her stats. I've got a post in the rules section about the ammo, I'll see what it says.
I'm going to take 4 levels of bushwacker instead of just 1 as that will allow me to reload as a move action without cartridges and a swift action with them. I'll then switch over to rogue.
I'm having a lot of fun RPing. While stats are great and all, they are really secondary to me.