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Kingmaker: The Path to Glory (Inactive)

Game Master pinvendor

Chapter 1: Stolen Lands? Well, steal them back!


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FIRST BLOOD

Waiting on the remaining NPCs, then back to the top!


Itinerant GameMaster

Initiative order returns to the top! Based on current positions, Corinne should be able to take a move action to go around the squares threatened by Ugly One and then be flanking with Ragnar if you wish to attack him. Or you could simply do a double move to go around and move towards Fat Boy and Girl Snatcher.

Xulgag should be able to almost make it to Fat Boy with a double move, but he will not be able to attack and would provoke an AoO unless he stops one square short of reaching him.


Itinerant GameMaster

@ODV; Lol, What are you talking about? It was just Refold and Ugly One. Refold's dead and Ugly One tried to attack and failed. Now we are back to Corinne the Chroniker!!


Itinerant GameMaster
OneDrunkViking on behalf of Ragnar the Younger wrote:
FIRST BLOOD

Was there any doubt it would be you?


I though the two child nappers would have a chance to go? Guess I was wrong!


Itinerant GameMaster

Dude, they went.


Yer right! By Jove! I dunno why I thought they hadn't. Heh.


So there's no chance of me getting in combat this round? What's the map look like?


If I did my math right, which lets be honest I probably didn't, this round you should be able to get as you ran/acrobatted past Refold, if you ran say you full 12(I assume) then you should be about where dark guy with two weapons was. How they got past without AoO I dunno, maybe you didn't run that far? Either way you should be a single move away so 6squaresish then fists of hurt.

I think .


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

Oh, thank the Gods they fixed it. I'll catch up and try to post before work tonight. Gotta take my pre-work nap now :)


Itinerant GameMaster

Doing an Acrobatic check to get past an enemy requires you to halve your move, so technically, that part of the move would only allow 3 squares of movement. Since Xulgag was doing a double move essentially, one at full and the other at half, he wouldn't have reached them. And unless I counted wrong would only be able to reach Fat Boy with a double move this next turn which would prevent an attack this next turn as well, but Xulgag could get up to one square away without provoking an AoO. He will definitely reach them next round. I posted something like this during the blackout for you guys yesterday.

I will try to get a new snapshot of the positioning when I get home today.


Indeed the move thing is correct. Could you take a picture that shows the whole battlefield in one pic? Switching back and forth is annnnoying.

WE'RE BACK IN ACTION


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

Agreed on seeing the map all in one picture, perhaps from a top down perspective, hence the labels would be ideal.


Itinerant GameMaster

It would be really small. That's why I did it in sections. Now that you're all getting closer together, I will be able to take a picture that shows everyone in the same shot.


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

Excellent! :-)


I guess this is where I hate the rules. If I were in the same situation, trying to catch someone, I wouldn't be worried about AoO's I'd be trying to go faster than the person to tackle them or whatever. Stopping, or even slowing down, seems like a very meta thing to do. At the sametime these guys are fleeing, so they shouldn't be worried about making AoO's. If they wanted to fight they would've instead of choosing to run. Really though, I just want to see what everything looks like before I attempt to close the gap to less the 5ft. Kidnapper should have his hands occupied while grappling the girl so I'm not expecting too much of a fight from him. And if he wants to flee some more, I'll be happy to give him my own AoO.


Indeed Stavo, BUT think, your monk is adept at dodging blows, he's running as fast as he can muster, without getting hit as in the minds' eye getting hit COULD possibly slow him down ever more than the nimble dodge betwixt his legs!

I think you made a good move, and at the loss of only 3 squares of your 12 ain't bad.

And as for this round doing a double move to get to fatboy, just entering his square won't get an AoO its only leaving it. So if you run right up into his face he won't get a free punch, but if they try to flee from you you will.


Oh I have pride in my moves so far, and I'm not done yet. I'm just trying to decide how to get to the kidnapper, I think there's a guy between us that I'm worried about getting the AoO from.


Itinerant GameMaster

I was incorrect in my calculations before. Xulgag will be able to reach Fat Boy to make an attack this round as seen here:


Word, looks like Xul is 6(ish?) sq. away. Dope dope dope


Itinerant GameMaster

A brief explanation of the terrain of the new area. The embankments indicate a steep hill. The stone steps is merely an ingress or slope which goes up. The two narrow strips are indicative of a gorge that drops 50 ft. down. Treat them as on large opening as if there was no grass in between.

And Xulgag is 5 squares away. Don't forget diagonal movement. I have put up another marked up map which shows the movement Corinne requested and two possible movements Xulgag can make to reach Fat Boy.

Alternatively if Xulgag would like to not pursue them that way and make a double move through the bottom portion of the map he may. Just remember obstacles cost an extra square of move and trees cost one per square of movement that passes through a tree square.

Incidentally a tree may also be climbed if desired. Climb check required for each "square" of movement you wish to make up the tree.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

1 RC to the Gamemaster for the awesome work on the top down maps!


Itinerant GameMaster

@Xulgag: I only have you as 9 to the right and 1 row up as possible from your starting location. Actually going through the trees would result in only 9 squares right where as going around along the trees along the bottom edge of the visible map gets you 1 row up from 9 squares away. Xulgag is effectively threatening the "easy" path through the center of the trees.

In order to avoid an AoO, Girl Snatcher would have to move through trees and will only delay the inevitable confrontation!


Itinerant GameMaster

I feel pretty good about those posts. Hope you guys are having fun! Take notes about the combat and we'll discuss the things you liked/disliked once the scene has resolved.


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

If I read things right, it's currently Ragnar's turn to act?

I'm having fun so far. I don't envy the work it takes to track everything on a map and upload it, though you seem pretty proficient at doing it.

I'm definitely aware that Corinne will not amount for much in combat, though I suspected as much. I'm hoping the roleplay, skill check portion of the game will augment her usefulness. Still, it's also possible I'll find some cool dagger that does more than 1d4 damage too.


Let me get this straight, running threw the trees impedes me so much that it cuts my speed in half. However, it doesn't stop line of sight or provide cover? BUT can conceal a man from my line of sight but not mine from his. Man, these are like two wayed trees of railroading if you ask me. If I can't see that guy with a very easy perception check, that guy can't possible see me well enough to shoot me. Look it up man, a 20 is a HARD perception check, but if he knows I'm there and is aiming to shoot me, I'm pretty sure I know he's there as well.


it is indeed my turn. was just recording my pocast so will post soon!


Itinerant GameMaster

@Stavo: sigh. First. You got twelve squares of move. The position you end up in is 10 squares from your original position. I fail to see how that is half your movement.

Second, if you can draw a line from the corner of a square to another without any obstacles in between cover isn't a factor.

Third, your perception DCs are based in the fact that you just got shot for over half of your HP, someone is now in your face with a sickle, and a distraction in the form of a squirming girl being carried away directly in your line of sight of the man on the hill. DC 20 IS the hard DC and the description accompanying it provides a nearly impossibly focused moment that anyone except Professor X wouldn't probably be able to pull off.

Lastly, he has higher position to see and is actively LOOKING around. You are not. Also, I never said his shot would be easy or you wouldn't have some cover of he does take a shot.

Anything else?


I guess the lack of description and using the map instead doesn't help. I still don't see how this sniper is hidden. I'm saying if line of sight is ever made, Xulgag would have a pretty good chance of seeing him as he ran into the situation.

Edit: Also what's a perception check really supposed to do in this situation. Me seeing him doesn't stop the fact that the dudes got an arrow pointed to my dome. Seeing him isn't going to stop that.


I think later on Stav, you gain an ability to dodge arrows yes? So eventually that spot might help? I dunno. I know he squares are not what we're used to (but only slightly) All in good time!


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

On a change of topic, I really like our characters so far. They are all very different and very fun. I think Stavo has done a really cool job in making his half-orc Monk. I like the descriptions (and the drinking, heh).


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

Re: Rules

Let's keep in mind this whole combat is to learn the rules and tweak them. That being said, I kind of agree with Stavo, unless you did factor in the cover of the trees to the overall difficulty of hitting him with the aimed shot.

I'm definitely used to a more descriptive style of fighting/playing, letting quick roles determine if we catch up or fall behind etc. But I'm enjoying the change of pace. We wanted something very different than Warhammer and Pinvendor is doing a great job of bringing that to life.


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

Ragnar:

Quote:
It was right, the flow of battle, the storm of sword and shield. All was simple in combat.

Inspired bit of writing there! Right from the pages of a novel. Loved it. Nice hit also, by the way. SMASH!


Itinerant GameMaster

Okay, so I am going to use the map to show you how this all happened. As Corinne has pointed out, the whole purpose of this is to familiarize ourselves with this. Even before we started, I said that the use of tactics and positioning would be important.

How Xulgag arrived at his current situation

The green path shows how Xulgag can most efficiently make use of his move to arrive at the closest possible point to the kidnappers.

As the black line on the right illustrates, the archer has perfect line of sight to Xulgag, and Xulgag has perfect line of sight to the archer. However, your stated objective was to try and cut off the kidnappers. Bursting through some trees, to your immediate left are the two men and a squalling young girl. Your attention was not focused on the beyond nor looking up a hill some 50 ft in the distance. Thus you wouldn't automatically see a man in this position. You would receive a chance to see him as perhaps his movement hit the corner of your eye, you happened to turn that way after being wounded, he snapped a twig, yadda yadda yadda....Perception!! And this chance I gave you.

In fact, consider this. When you walk down the street in a city with multi-level buildings around you, do you immediately notice one specific thing that is on the second floor? Third floor? After you got done moving hurriedly through "covering" obstacles such as neon signs, a crowd of people, or street lamps?

Moving on. Trees. They have branches. Most branches are not at ground level in fact we could say most trees except for really, really tall ones, have branches at chest level. Thus you wouldn't be able to run through a place immediately next to a tree without having to slow down or otherwise hit the branches. However, if you're standing next a tree and someone on the other side has a squirt gun they can see 2/3 of you under the branches and would be able to hose you down. Cover for a called shot to the head? Absolutely. For your torso? Nope.

Why would a Perception check benefit you in this case? The man is on higher ground. Thus the "chest-high branches" are lower than him, meaning the tree from his angle gives you perfect cover. Knowing he is there would allow you to make a tactical 5 ft step backwards to give you said perfect cover and avoid an AoO from Fat Norry. Not knowing he is there provides you may not choose to make that choice thinking you need to deal with the combat of Norry and have no other reason to move.

Finally, once again, I never said his shot to you would be easy. He's shooting into melee, and you would get a bonus to having a partial cover since there are tree branches in the square immediately adjacent to your right which could potentially interfere with the shot.

Okay, so that's the reasoning for how Xulgag arrived where he is and why knowing of the archer would benefit him. I am gathering from all of you that what I need to do is at least for a time, describe the exact situation you find yourselves in each time it's your turn. I trust you guys enough that I am willing to do this despite the ability for the other players to metagame after learning the description of each other's turn.

Think about the game in real world style. The map is just to allow relative distance to be accounted for. The way things are happening is still based in real world physics and logical thought. Remember, every round all of these things are happening a simultaneously. intiative order just signifies whose reflexes are a tad faster in this 6 second period.


Itinerant GameMaster

I agree with Corinne that you guys are doing swell. I like the characters, and the way you are describing yourselves. Not knowing the tacticality (is that a word?) of this game leads to some frustration to be sure.

Please realize I am not here to hose you or try to find a way to railroad you. My character is at stake here. I want you guys to save Arielle. I appreciate that you decided to try and do so since I did give you the option to just go on your merry way. I really wouldn't have stopped you. This is your game. But in the interest of learning and showing you what the rules mean, I am going to hold you and myself accountable.

Remember I retracted my initial ruling that Xulgag couldn't make it to Fat Norry on this turn. Because after I did the math, I realized I was way off. I am going to admit when I am at fault. But truth be told, I study the maps. I took it upon myself to do that for you guys for a reason. Not as a "Here is a player handout" thing, but as a "this is EXACTLY where your PCs are and what they can do" kind of thing. So don't forget that consulting these is going to be of vast importance.

Pathfinder is extremely map centric, postition important and very specific. Most abilites have strictly designed parameters regarding timing and distance. You voted for the PFRPG rules, don't forget. I advised you of all this ahead of time, and you sounded excited. I swear to you, I am trying to play this right, and I do encourage you to ask questions. In the future I simply request that you "ask" them, so we can work out together whether I made an error or there was merely a misinterpration or misapplication of rules. Angry sounding declarations on the discussion thread are merely going to make me defensive and demoralize the other players.


I'm actually pretty angry about this now because I've used these kinds of maps before and I've always played that you consider a tree or bush cover if you can't draw a line through a clear path to all 4 corners of the defenders square. This being because he can occupy any where in that corner. Sure the tree could be really tall with no branches, but you didn't describe it wasn't. It could be a short tree with branches all over the place. I don't see a consistency here that's all if the branches are tall, why couldn't I have just run under them and right in kidnappers face? it makes perfect sense that I could sprint under those branches and around the tree without any checks or reduction in distance if the fatman can shoot me without penalty. Cuz that's what I really wanted to do. Why would I want to leave distance between us if I could go around it?


what I would've done

This is what I'm talking about. If that tree is not sufficient enough for cover it wouldn't impede Xulgag's movement in the least. Fat guy would be shooting in to melee and the douche bag on the hill couldn't possible see me with the trees in the way.


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief
Quote:
Please realize I am not here to hose you or try to find a way to railroad you.

I believe you! That's the job of people who GM Warhammer, haha :)


Itinerant GameMaster

I am at a loss here. You know that out of all of us, Bill and I were the most rules lawyerish. Me because I liked things to be clearly defined, and he because he liked to leverage them for his own ends.

My instincts of course are to refer to the rules, argue my case, point out the things that all three of you have overlooked in my descriptions (one of which is HUGE), and overall justify why I am mostly right.

But this is about fun. No one should be getting angry or upset because an NPC got a lucky roll. I had indicated I would prefer to have a less emotional discussion about the rules and have you guys discuss at the end of the preview battle about how you feel things went and what anyone had questions about. Already that seems to have gone out the window, and resentment at what I described is already marring the experience.

I see that all of you seem to think I am wrong, so you tell me what you guys think is fair, we'll apply that to Xulgag and just move on. I would much rather get you guys to the roleplaying bits since that's where our group shines. This section was just supposed to be about learning the rules, understanding the tactics and what I need to do to make sure things are described correctly for you. Since I seem to be failing at that, I will just concede the moment. I would like to hear your opinions and then we can get back on track.


Really you just have to be absolutely descriptive In your moves. Dont say I charge around south off the path, the GM might not understand your planned route., DO say I move 1 square southeast, 4 east, 1 south. That way whoever is looking at the board can immediately see exactly the path you made. I think that's where our only hiccup is right now. We're all used to descriptive movements etc but pathfinder is very grid based in combat. It's just something we'll all need to get used to. This is an example combat, for us to see the kinks and get em ironed out. No need to get mad anybody!

Also, like Jon I've used these maps and if he was where he said he has thought he was cover would've been there, as he is under the branches, in the sphere of cover from being shot from above(if they were a certain height.)

Just chalk it up to communication and move forward!

(I know I have it easy. I run at the next guy, hit, run at the next guy!) much easier.

EDIT: is the problem in question Norry's ability to shoot Xul? I agree if the tree causes problems with movement then it should be granting cover, that makes sense, doesn't it? Good on Stavo for not letting the disagreement affect his Xul character.


I just looked back and read Xuls description and I got a placement different from both I your pictures! He said he wanted to end up 9 squares right, two squads up. So we may be counting off? I would again just stress that we'd need to plot our course in words so that of any traps, ambushes, etc get set off we know EXACTLY where we are when they happen dig?

And pinvendor, I know you mean well, but don't say stuff like

Quote:
point out the things that all three of you have overlooked in my descriptions (one of which is HUGE)...

It makes it more confrontational sounding because you're faulting us for not being able to read essentially.

I'm going to go back and read through to try and find it but again, things slip, if it's something GLARRINGLY OBVIOUS TO OUR CHARACTERS AND IMPORTANT don't risk it slipping through between lines of description. If it is something relatively hidden then don't blame us for not noticing! You did a good job hiding it! :)

I'm not mad at all I'm having a great time and dice are random! Let's keep it goin!

Edit: Are you talking about the "door" thing? I saw that when you wrote it but it doesn't really agfrct Ragnars skull smashing just yet. Jut because we didn't act on something doesn't mean we didn't see it :P


Itinerant GameMaster

The problem is Xulgag couldn't make it 9 squares to the right and 2 rows up if one used the movement restrictions I outlined. Of course that's dependent on the interpretation of what's hindering which now seems to be in dispute.

In regards to my comment about the thing you overlooked, perhaps it does sound a tad confrontational, but it is a bit frustrating that such an integral piece of the expectation of what defines the trees' appearance has been completely ignored when I put it out there and clearly stated it. If you can't find it then I consider that my fault and from now on will not assume that you guys have read or recall any prior descriptions.

As I indicated before, I now know that I will need to describe the situation each character is in each and every time it's their turn. I have no problem with that. It will just make my part a little longer to type up, but I am sure it will make things easier.

This situation just shows that we each have come into the rules with different understandings and experience, so hopefully we can work out how we want to proceed as friends and no one needs to feel angry or upset since no one is being treated unfairly with any intent.

You guys just tell me how I need to adjust the situation, I will write it up and we'll move on to Corinne's turn.


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

Descriptive confusion is something that comes up a lot through PBP interaction. I noticed that A LOT when I was running our Warhammer game. To me things made perfect sense because they were in my head, but to the players things could get muddled or confused because of the medium in which we are using. If this were a live action game, someone could quickly bounce a question off the GM, he could explain, and the game would go on. With play by post, that's harder. Things are more written in stone as they happen and it's hard to describe everything.


Ok I think you may need to tell us here what we're missing that affects the current situation. The trees are bare so that would imply visibility, however there are low branches that have a 50% chance to stun you if all out running. If there's that many it would make it seem like its difficult to tread (hence the movement hampering.) that would make it seem as if there is cover, maybe for the head but not body so a 25% cover? Not sure on that bit.

If Xul couldn't make it exactly where he had said why didn't we pause there and correct it before?

Pin my man, yer sounding very defeated and blaming us of what can be considered to have killed our last game, lack of reading. Maybe you should try and get across the important things without as many flourishes? I know it feels more right but maybe people are reading and not comprehending because there is so much? So maybe do your fantastic first draft and trim up what you think isn't necessary or each scene?

This is a test!!! Don't anyone get their feelings hurt for lack of understanding! We're all new to the system and we gotta work the kinks out first. Rome wasn't built in a single session...I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

Edit: also let's all take in to consideration that some descriptions have been up for awhile and can be forgotten as we proceed. Just thought of that myself.


Itinerant GameMaster

Another thing of note is that I am not trying to debate the things you are telling me about how you see it. I could literally prove that what I have described about how Norry could shoot Xulgag under the tree branches, but the tree's branches would prevent movement of the unhindered variety by simply shooting a video with my wife, a Nerf gun, and a tree outside our apt. But that's not the point. Being right is no longer the purpose of this discussion. This is about coming to a compromise and everyone being willing to set aside their anger, frustration, and pride in order to have fun and get to the part we all enjoy: the descriptive roleplay.

I am trying to move past the fact that I feel completely justified and allow feedback so we can all feel good about the situation. I realize that the problem is none of you are picturing what I am envisioning and that isn't your fault. So for the sake of things being fair, I would like to know what you would all like to see happen even if I have to retcon something and we have to start part of this over.


Itinerant GameMaster

Lol, I love how you're answer to everyone's debate of what exactly a "tree" is is to be less descriptive, ODV.


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

Is it possible to play Pathfinder in a more descriptive way, also? Or do the rules DEMAND that everything be grid related? I could quickly see our story becoming: "Corinne to node D7, strike. Villain 02 makes his saving throw, and moves to node E2..."

It seems to me that's pretty limiting to our vast, and I mean VAST, roleplaying skills. We're some of the most creative and talented roleplayers in history, and I mean it. I've listened to other games at Gamers Inn and those guys have nothing on what I've seen you all come up with.

I'd suggest a more descriptive style of play, with less worry about map placement. Use challenge rolls against our stats like DEX and Acrobatics and that kind of thing to determine if what we're doing/describing works or fails, and be less concerned about distance and facing and all that.

BUT, I will also say that I know next to nothing about these rules so it may likely be hard/impossible to do what I'm suggesting. Since this first combat is all about tweaking our experience of the game, I'm offering my advice. I just find the current system a bit limiting to our epic skills.


Did you read my reply :(

I'm sure your suggesting he's shooting under the branches and that's fine. I have no qualms with how everything played out. At. All. I'm trying to figure out where the problem is.

Quote:


Lol, I love how you're answer to everyone's debate of what exactly a "tree" is is to be less descriptive, ODV.

Straight up, that felt like you were being hurtful.

I was suggesting to trim the fat, not to not describe the trees at all.


Female Human Level 1 Time Thief

This is a challenging medium for sure. Some people call it easier. I call it harder. It's tough on the GM, that's a fact. And it requires a lot of patience from players. Let's keep our heads in the game. We'll figure it out :)


Itinerant GameMaster

Actually no, i hadn't read your reply since I was posting that comment when yours hit the board.

I was actually amused hence the "Lol". Don't forget, I am not the only one whose messages don't come across as intended. You're saying things like "not so many flourishes" and Corinne's saying things like more descriptive, less gamey. I am trying to moderate both which is why I didn't go into super great detail about some things.

HOWEVER, the current situation has arisen since Xulgag is upset that I didn't describe the trees a certain way, so that he could feel comfortable with why one thing is possible but another thing is not. That sounds like the request is "moar" description.

I am thinking that a more general definition might be in order. We could just rule that regardless of leafiness, bushiness, time of year, height, flowering, whatever the status of a tree, that it's just a tree. When it comes to combat we could just make things less realistic and more rules based. If it's a tree, there's cover, line of sight is impaired providing concealment and there is no variation regardless of anything else. I am willing to bow to whatever you guys think is good enough for you. As long as we can agree on something, so there isn't any further heartache over this kind of thing.

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