Vosil Comarenza |
Oooh, drama! Me likey.
Quick (or maybe not) question, OGGM: Could I just get some clarification on things before we respond to this in-game? I'm having difficulties getting to grips with the River Freedoms - and, more generally, with feudal law, such as it is. I think the issue is that I'm used to a world where Magna Carta has been good law for 800+ years (and the Bill of Rights for 200+), so I really think this is something that my character understands better than me.
(cue: "what's my motivation?" jokes)
As I have it, "Say What you will..." is the lowest-ranked of the River Freedoms, and it doesn't protect against consequences of what you say. Plus, "Courts are for Kings" is higher-ranked, right? So if we say it's illegal to spread sedition, or foment unrest etc, that out-ranks the "Say What you Will" Freedom.
Plus, "You Have What You Hold" is higher still; so if he can't prevent us from holding him, we can do just that, right? We have him, we hold him; and if he couldn't stop us then he shouldn't have provoked us.
Basically, and leaving alignment and character out of it for the time being, my understanding (please correct if I'm wrong on any of this BTW) is that this is a medieval campaign and the tone we're going for is 'enlightened feudalism' - we don't have serfdom or slavery, and we don't simply murder those we dislike, but we're not going for Andoran-style democracy. There's no Bill of Rights. As I understand it, our response to his accusations could essentially be "Yes, and we're arresting you for sedition and fomenting unrest."
(Note that I'm not saying that's what we SHOULD do, or that it's what Vosil's about to do - I'm just trying to work things out)
In other words: what are our options here according to the River Freedoms?
Dregan Hirscherz |
Sorry things are tough at home currently. My son is sleeping very poorly so i'm am too. I will catch up when i can. Please bot me for a bit.
-Posted with Wayfinder
Old Guy GM |
Sorry to hear that Dregan, take care of your son and yourself, we'll be here!
Vosil, the bottom line is it's your kingdom, handle it the way you want. It's the potential repercussions that matter. He happens to be in your territory, so he has only the protections that Fairhaven gives him, whatever those are. What you have to decide is how much of his talk you are willing to tolerate, and what the effects are on the people. I don't want to say too much more, to do so would give some things away! you always have the NPC council members to discuss with, and your new 'enforcer'.
EDIT: also, he hasn't actually suggested the people revolt or do anything at all. He's giving his opinion on your activities. So to say he is fomenting unrest or sedition would be a stretch at this point.
Talia Khavortorov |
Good luck with everything, Dregan. I hope it passes soon.
Gavriil |
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Ok, folks! Finals are over and I'm finally gradumataded so things are finally slowing down for me. I just got off work and its really late so I'm probably not going to post tonight, but I'll go through everything in the morning and get a post up then!
Old Guy GM |
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In case you are wondering why the saves and the penalties are different, I made some home-rule adjustments on the -2 penalty for attraction based on your background RP. Talia has no penalty for obvious reasons. Gavriil has the full penalty, which should also be obvious. Dregan and Naralesh got a -1 (instead of -2) because of their significant others back home. Edric only got a -1 because of his rather dark background.
Hope that makes sense. A small benefit from backgrounds and RP.
Vosil Comarenza |
Concord
A day later, the man is in the square again, haranguing the crowd about taxes and the absence of the Ruling Council.
Taxation rate is zero. As in, there are no taxes.
Vosil, anything else you want to do while Jubal investigates? Maybe with the other NPC council members?
There probably is something I could do, but I have no idea what.
In case you are wondering why the saves and the penalties are different, I made some home-rule adjustments on the -2 penalty for attraction based on your background RP. Talia has no penalty for obvious reasons. Gavriil has the full penalty, which should also be obvious. Dregan and Naralesh got a -1 (instead of -2) because of their significant others back home. Edric only got a -1 because of his rather dark background.
Hope that makes sense. A small benefit from backgrounds and RP.
Love this! Although RP-wise, Gav's penalty should be higher ;-)
Old Guy GM |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Old Guy GM wrote:Taxation rate is zero. As in, there are no taxes.Concord
A day later, the man is in the square again, haranguing the crowd about taxes and the absence of the Ruling Council.
'Alternate Facts'. He doesn't care what the actual tax rate is.
Old Guy GM wrote:Vosil, anything else you want to do while Jubal investigates? Maybe with the other NPC council members?There probably is something I could do, but I have no idea what.
Ok, wanted to be sure you weren't waiting for the rest just because of rank or something.
Old Guy GM wrote:Love this! Although RP-wise, Gav's penalty should be higher ;-)In case you are wondering why the saves and the penalties are different, I made some home-rule adjustments on the -2 penalty for attraction based on your background RP. Talia has no penalty for obvious reasons. Gavriil has the full penalty, which should also be obvious. Dregan and Naralesh got a -1 (instead of -2) because of their significant others back home. Edric only got a -1 because of his rather dark background.
Hope that makes sense. A small benefit from backgrounds and RP.
I thought about it ;)
Talia Khavortorov |
Work is a deluge right now. I hope to be up to speed tomorrow. If I'm holding anything up, please bot Talia.
Thank you!
Vosil Comarenza |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vosil Comarenza wrote:'Alternate Facts'. He doesn't care what the actual tax rate is.Old Guy GM wrote:Taxation rate is zero. As in, there are no taxes.Concord
A day later, the man is in the square again, haranguing the crowd about taxes and the absence of the Ruling Council.
Ha! I suppose he wants to "make Fairhaven great again" too?!
Actually, can I use the Diplomacy skill to spread rumours, rather than gather information? Putting a few 'alternate facts' out there about him would be a good use of my time...
EDIT: Gav, that was a great, great post. I'm sorry I can only favourite it once.
Edric 'Godly' |
Belatedly - congrats Gav! The exciting world of full time work awaits...
Interesting take on the penalties OGGM - I'm beginning to think that Edric must be completely scarred now. Teach me to write tragic backgrounds before the game even begins!
Naralesh |
I leave for one day and all of you get ensnared by feminine wiles? *grumbles* At least Gavriil has experience with this situation! ;)
It's pretty late tonight so I may need to post tomorrow.
Naralesh |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The other two elementals have names too. One is called [click here] and the other is named Brian.
Talia Khavortorov |
One is called [click here]
Nice! Perfect name for a pile of sentient rocks!
Also, OMFG!!!
Vosil Comarenza |
Apologies - still at work. I'll post tomorrow, please bot if I'm holding things up.
Vosil Comarenza |
It never goes smooth. Why don't it ever go smooth?
Sorry all, will try and post tomorrow, assuming there's a government by then (and frankly, that's in the top 10 of sentences I never thought I'd post).
Talia Khavortorov |
OGGM, I love what you're doing here, but I have some questions:
1) Did Talia's local/act rolls reveal anything about where this man may be from? Mannerisms, colloquisms, accent, anything of that sort that would pin this guy as being from somewhere other than Concord? He is living in the inn, after all, so he must have come from somewhere, even if he won't admit it.
2) Is this an ongoing challenge, or is it over?
3) If it is ongoing, will we take -2 (or more!) unrest after each exchange? [Gulp!]
Old Guy GM |
1) No, you didn't find anything about him. He's too good at concealing that - which should give you a hint about him/his purpose.
2) It is sort of ongoing, at least it will be ongoing until you deal with him one way or another.
3) It's not a daily penalty, but it's kind of hard to adjudicate via pbp. I threw the -2 out there (per the book, btw) as a warning that this man's activities should not go unchecked. There is a opposed check involved, as I'm sure you've guessed, vs his oratory skill.
EDIT: I should add that there has been some discussion about investigations of the man between Jubal, Darrick and Vosil. I was waiting for some direction from the group on what shape that should take.
Talia Khavortorov |
Thanks for the clarifications!
1) No, you didn't find anything about him. He's too good at concealing that - which should give you a hint about him/his purpose.
Roger that! He's just a disgruntled farmer or something, got it!
:)
2) It is sort of ongoing, at least it will be ongoing until you deal with him one way or another.
Ok, this begs another question: is this specific encounter ongoing, or given that the penalty was handed out, are we moving past it. In other words, should we respond, or is this scene done?
Thanks!
Old Guy GM |
As far as #2, that's up to you. I left it hanging for you guys to do something, or nothing. There a suggestion to search his room while he was away. He is away now while he's in the square, but I haven't gotten any instructions on who or what is going to search. There are many things you could do right now:
1) engage in debate - which you've done, and from a metagame standpoint, you've made your opposed rolls for today.
2) delay him while someone searches his room. Jubal maybe?
3) throw him in prison
4) attack him
If I don't hear anything today, I'm going to move it forward.
Talia Khavortorov |
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I, the player, would rather not engage him in any more debate, mostly because I have counterpoints, but would like to save them, if need be. I do have a class ability that would work great in this instance (mockery, give opponents -2 to cha skill checks), but I just don't see Talia stooping to that level in front of her subjects. Le sigh, this is probably the only time I'll ever have the opportunity to use such a thing as well.
Options 3 & 4 don't seem very likely, given that they are rather cruel and arbitrary actions (we have no proof that he's anything but a concerned new arrival), so since Talia is concerned with seeming just, and Edric actually is just, I don't really see those as options. It would be much easier if we were evil, for sure!
I was thinking of something like option #2, but over a longer time frame, taking advantage of him leaving the hotel, etc. But delaying him now would be much more concise. I'll get a post up today.
EDIT: Actually, option 3, it turns out, was on the table, if only for the night, and part of a bluff.
Talia Khavortorov |
OK, I had an idea and ran with it, hope that is OK with everyone. Please chime in, alter as you see fit, etc.
Since Talia's taking the statue for the town square, she'll pay for it out of her loot share.
Vosil Comarenza |
I do have a class ability that would work great in this instance (mockery, give opponents -2 to cha skill checks), but I just don't see Talia stooping to that level in front of her subjects. Le sigh, this is probably the only time I'll ever have the opportunity to use such a thing as well.
Disagree entirely - what could be more dramatic than a public verbal duel for the loyalty of your subjects?! I thought you were a playwright...? ;)
I'm happy to stand by with a scowl (Intimidate gives a further -2 to his rolls); there's nothing in the River Freedoms says we have to fight fair!
EDIT: Talia's order to have him executed made my blood run cold, by the way. Beautiful bit of writing.
EDIT II: And I'm with Edric's interpretation of the paladin code, too: The G in the alignment is significantly more important than the L. You don't fall for committing a C act, after all.
EDIT III: I've put the unrest into the kingdom spreadsheet. Unrest still at 0, but if it goes up by much more it will start to register.
Talia Khavortorov |
Disagree entirely - what could be more dramatic than a public verbal duel for the loyalty of your subjects?! I thought you were a playwright...? ;)
I was interpreting the ability as more slander and defamation than a public duel. More like a court gossip cutting down someone with snide remarks; more passive-aggressive than direct confrontation. Not that Talia is above using that ability, but in a debate-style situation (rather than in a private court) it was more a concern on her part that it would be perceived as not the proper behavior from her subjects, and thus work against her. I like your interpretation better.
EDIT: Talia's order to have him executed made my blood run cold, by the way. Beautiful bit of writing.
Thanks, it was fun to write.
EDIT II: And I'm with Edric's interpretation of the paladin code, too: The G in the alignment is significantly more important than the L. You don't fall for committing a C act, after all.
Oh goodie, a paladin code discussion :P
I'm going to shy away from that, but I do think it raises a bigger issue that I'd like to hash out now, before it comes up again, and becomes an issue for Edric's player and myself.
The issue is this: This world, as I believe OGGM has it set up (and please, OGGM, correct me if I misspeak), is not as "good" as what we think of. From Talia's perspective, she's behaving perfectly rationally, even on the "good" side of the ledger. First, she and Edric tried appealing to the people, the most "good" option, to win hearts and minds. Didn't work. Next, she's delaying Grigori while trying to find proof of malfeasance. There's not, as I can see it, any other "good" options left. Although as written, no one is in on the ruse, it doesn't matter; Edric has rejected the possibility of him working on a deception, and the paladin code requires him to work with honor, not lie, etc.
We've seen this type of quandary before, with the kobolds/dwarves. Good as we think of it is not the same thing in this world, and our legitimacy as rulers is in real peril if we can't make hard decisions.
This of course, doesn't jibe with paladins, especially lawfulGOOD ones, who won't commit evil acts or take part in deceptions. And, Edric won't go chop wood (as an aside, I think the chopping wood thing is actually a really good thing in PF/DND - it lets other more rogueish players play their characters in a manner consistent with their principles, which is good for harmony at the table; it doesn't constrain those characters with a paladin code that they didn't ask for, and it doesn't put the players of paladins in positions where they fall).
So, that effectively neuters anything but the lawfulGOOD course of action, which, we've seen once and probably are seeing again here, is not always going to be possible. What to do then?
I would like some guidance about how to play Talia in these situations as well. She's built to be a bit of a scoundrel. She's a student - and manipulator - of people. I can walk this back and make her respond to every situation in some GOOD manner, but it weakens her significantly by not allowing her to make full use of her toolbox. Frankly, is not that exciting for me as a player either; I prefer shades of gray to GOOD, and I didn't ask to be saddled with a paladin's code.
Talia's a s#@& explorer and middling in a fight (which is OK, she is a bard after all). I'd like the freedom to run a little in social encounters. To be clear, I would not ever put Edric in a position to fall. But, in the absence of her/us being able to persuade people in social encounters, what is she to do, if denied the more "nuanced" (read: ethically gray) course of action? Is there a way for her to remain a scoundrel while also respecting Edric's decision to not take part in deception and not chop wood?
As another aside, perhaps I should rebuild her as a traditional bard, and do away with the court bard archetype? That way she could contribute more with buffing/knowledges, if less with diplomacy/manipulation? It wouldn't solve the issue(s) raised above, but it would allow her to contribute in other ways.
Edric 'Godly' |
Please don't dispose of Talia as she is on my account - Edric is not going to turn into the 'Holy Vigilante - you will all do everything exactly the way it must be done or feel my wrath!' and he's certainly not going to do things like withhold healing because the others have annoyed him.
Edric's problem is the current situation is much more simple than perhaps I've made it out to be. You've threatened to KILL Grigori. Edric would, if it was explained to him first, have no problem with having Grigori distracted etc in order to have his room searched - the man poses a threat to Fairhaven and needs to be dealt with. Arbitrary execution, however, is not the way to deal with it. Keeping him to view a display of the militia, or discuss art - no problem. Jailing him in order to have him executed - not fine!
On chopping wood: I agree its a good thing, it just feels very meta sometimes. If the paladin always goes chop wood five minutes before everyone else do sneaky things then its challenging suspension of disbelief. If Talia gets a lot more done when Edric is out drilling the troops then that's to be expected and as you say, even celebrated. Hopefully I've not had Edric being a ridiculous pillar of righteousness so far and complaining at picking locks or insisting on waking up sleeping enemies.
If it comes to it and Talia needs to ask Edric to go and do something else then he will - he trusts Talia to do the right thing which is why her suddenly deciding to kill people scares him!
So don't change Talia on my account - just remember, if you're going to do something morally grey, then warn him first! He's not against pretending to do something like that, and if convinced of the necessity he'd actually do it - that's why he follows Desna and not Iomedae.
Vosil Comarenza |
This is interesting, and I want to assist without creating yet another alignment debate.
However, I think I don't agree that "good as we think of it is not the same thing in this world." I think that good is recognisable when you see it, and we recognise it because it is the same thing.
How you play it, however is up to you - and I mean that literally. There's a reason we didn't put the paladin in charge: it's so that you, the Ruler, can tell him (politely or otherwise) to shut it.
If you order Kesten and the guards to execute Grigory on the spot (evil), I'd probably expect Edric to intervene; if you order them to haul him away for torture (evil), I'd likewise expect Edric to intervene; if you order them to lock him up without harming him (NOT evil) I'd expect him to grumble a bit (since it's not exactly a good action either) but not actually stop Kesten from carrying out that order.
If he does intervene then we have a different problem, but the difficulty here is that he thinks you're about to commit an evil act, rather than a simply morally grey one. Maybe warn him in advance next time, so he knows what's coming?
Paladins are NOT there to force everyone to act LG - they're there to combat evil. Huge difference.
As for lying: remember that undetectable alignment is on the paladin spell list.
Talia Khavortorov |
Thanks, Edric. That clarifies a lot for me.
Edric's problem is the current situation is much more simple than perhaps I've made it out to be. You've threatened to KILL Grigori. Edric would, if it was explained to him first, have no problem with having Grigori distracted etc in order to have his room searched - the man poses a threat to Fairhaven and needs to be dealt with. Arbitrary execution, however, is not the way to deal with it. Keeping him to view a display of the militia, or discuss art - no problem. Jailing him in order to have him executed - not fine!
Sorry, I would have retconned things to make the ruse more clear, but you stated you weren't interested in deception either. At that point, I decided not to bother, since acting on her impulse is a little more in character for Talia, and it wouldn't matter so much either way :) As I understood your post quoted here deception/ruse and chopping wood was off the table:
Edric won't be happy with it any which way - and I've always thought that the 'paladin goes outside to chop wood, knowing full well what is going on inside' is somewhat dubious
FWIW, I had a much longer, more ethical plan in place based around careful investigation, but I then I thought it probably wasn't OGGM's intent to drag this storyline out for another week or two, so I decided to push the action a bit. I actually intended to make it clear that it was a ruse, but didn't get it into that first post. So it jumbled things. And I understand that as presented, it put Edric in a difficult situation. My aplogies.
On chopping wood: I agree its a good thing, it just feels very meta sometimes. If the paladin always goes chop wood five minutes before everyone else do sneaky things then its challenging suspension of disbelief.
Agreed. It can be heavy-handed. I'll certainly discuss things in the future a bit more before acting though - just trying to move things along, and getting a bit carried away. Apologies again!
Talia Khavortorov |
stuff
Right, I think I misunderstood an ooc comment and rushed things. I certainly could have been more clear IC. Apologies.
As for the paladin code (and I still think this is problematic, as it reinforced what I thought Edric was saying OOC when I looked up the code), it states:
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying...
Undetectable alignment in on the paladin spell list.
I think UA is on the spell list, if you're going to interpret what Paizo has written strictly, so that Pally can... stand around silently and not get pinged by antipaladins? Walk around Cheliax and not get devils sicced on them? This seems like a case of the rules contradicting themselves.
For what it is worth, I am absolutely in favor paladins being able to lie.
Ugh, I've gotten into a paladin code discussion after all :)
Talia Khavortorov |
However, I think I don't agree that "good as we think of it is not the same thing in this world." I think that good is recognisable when you see it, and we recognise it because it is the same thing.
Oh, as for this, I'd like to get OGGM's thoughts.
Was it good to relocate the kobolds? I'd say with our modern interpretation of morality, it was not.
Is it good to detain/delay a person while you ransack the room they stay in, looking for evidence to imprison them because they've criticized the government? By our modern standards, I'd say that it is at best uncomfortably authoritarian. But I don't imagine many people would have an issue with it in our game world.
Talia Khavortorov |
OK, I've updated the map (finally). @ OGGM, my Google-fu was failing me, and I couldn't find the descriptions of the hexes we'd last explored, so I went online and found a KM map and used that. It didn't have any encounter locations on it, so nothing was spoilered. Hope that is OK.
I also think I made a mistake and accidentally erased the last two hexes of fog on the map to the right of the lake at some previous date (d7 and e7). Those are not explored yet, correct?
Also, loot:
The Dancing Lady gave us the following shares, adjusted for goods, and assuming that no one is taking anything beyond what Gav and Talia have claimed:
Dregan, Edric, Vosil: 669.64 gp
Gavriil: 519.64 gp, a bearskin coverlet, and a royal outfit.
Talia: -230.36 gp, a dancing lady statue, and a royal outfit.
Let me know if anyone wanted anything else, and I'll adjust appropriately.
Vosil Comarenza |
Good points, all. The only thing I would say is that Pathfinder (and the D&D system as a whole) explicitly recognises that some actions are Neutral, meaning that not every choice boils down to a simple Good/Evil divide.
That doesn't mean that Good/Evil don't exist - but a third option is literally built into the mechanics of the game.
So I agree with you that the actions you mention weren't Good - but they weren't Evil either, and we tried hard to find Good alternatives like negotiation first. Sometimes it's the trying that defines you as Good.
Edric 'Godly' |
No need to apologise to me - it's good roleplaying fodder and that's no bad thing.
I think as a general rule, Edric will be ok with neutral acts for defense of the realm etc as long as he gets the necessity explained first. He's a paladin and somewhat naive so the extra details will be needed.
As Vosil says sometimes its the trying that matters - if Talia says "we need to search this guy's room, lets chuck him in jail so we can" Edric will probably respond "hey, that's over the top, how about we invite him to the militia parade as an honoured guest instead?" This balances necessity and expedience in a more 'good' fashion than imprisonment. :)
If we can ever get Talia out of her room... :P
Old Guy GM |
Keep in mind that I haven't changed 'good' or 'evil' in any way. What I've tried to do was present situations where you had to make choices that would challenge those concepts. 'Good' for you as an individual or even an adventuring party may be very different from 'good' for a nation. Yes, the root definition of 'good' doesn't change, but the path to get things done may step across the lines a few times. I've said it before: it's not just about you, there are people counting on you.
For the record, I loved what Talia did, AND Edric's response. All she did was tell him he was going to be executed, that's a bit different from actually having him say, poisoned at the table. And don't rebuild Talia; she is built for this type of thing, which is important, and will be more so in the future.
Should Talia have told everyone her plan? Maybe. But as the PC built for court intrigue, she would know that too many players may spoil the play. It's far more convincing for a man like Grigori to believe her when people like Edric react as they do. Unintentional or not, it was brilliantly played.
The kobolds? You didn't relocate them, they moved themselves at Kaalib's behest. He was out of the game, so essentially that was my doing. An epic send off for a PC, and taking away a troublesome piece without you guys having to do it.
I am just returning from a family trip, so I will get the game stuff and questions answered tomorrow.
Old Guy GM |
OK, I've updated the map (finally). @ OGGM, my Google-fu was failing me, and I couldn't find the descriptions of the hexes we'd last explored, so I went online and found a KM map and used that. It didn't have any encounter locations on it, so nothing was spoilered. Hope that is OK.
I also think I made a mistake and accidentally erased the last two hexes of fog on the map to the right of the lake at some previous date (d7 and e7). Those are not explored yet, correct?
Actually using that map will make both our jobs vastly easier. That way you can just copy what you see without having to decipher my esoteric descriptions! Especially when it comes to the lake and it's environs.
D7 and E7 are not explored, but that's ok. Just leave it and remember that you still have to go there.
EDIT: I believe a statue has kingdom benefits as well. This could be added for free if Talia is paying for it. Or paid for with BP and Talia doesn't have to take the hit. Your call. Also, what are we turning in for the quest, and who is doing it? Gav? <grin>
Talia Khavortorov |
Thanks for the clarifications on alignment, OGGM, it is very helpful.
Actually using that map will make both our jobs vastly easier. That way you can just copy what you see without having to decipher my esoteric descriptions! Especially when it comes to the lake and it's environs.
I'll work off the map in the future then. I'm all about saving the GM some time!
EDIT: I believe a statue has kingdom benefits as well. This could be added for free if Talia is paying for it. Or paid for with BP and Talia doesn't have to take the hit.
Regarding the statue, I'd like Talia to pay for it. This is the kind of thing I had kind of envisioned her spending some of her money on, rather than (just) magic items. And, with Grigori's subterfuge, it is probably better that the locals see and know that it is her money being spent on improvements, even if it is just a statue with an inscription on it.
I did recently spend some money on getting her cold iron longsword enchanted - when would that be ready?
Also, what are we turning in for the quest, and who is doing it? Gav? <grin>
I forgot about the quest. I guess we wouldn't be selling that stuff then. Definitely the coiling snake statuette, maybe other things? I'll refigure everything when we know what we're giving the lady.
If Gav turning the items gives the GM a grin, I'm all for it! She sounds like trouble (of the kind Gav would like).
Vosil Comarenza |
If you want to put him on trial, we can still do that; I just thought it would be more fun to destroy him.
Talia Khavortorov |
If you want to put him on trial, we can still do that; I just thought it would be more fun to destroy him.
This is my most favorite thing in the history of ever. Nicely done, Vosil!
Vosil Comarenza |
Glad you liked it!
"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it."
-- Voltaire