Kingmaker AP - Into the Stolen Lands!
Game Master Haldhin

If I remember right, swords, maces, lions, horses, dragons, roses, crosses, and towers turn up the most. But then again I don't know much about heraldry. Just seems like those are everywhere. Unicorns count as horses sense its just a horn difference. ;)

I think you forget Deer and Stags

How do the unicorns in the area feel about that?

Cause as pure as they are, they are kinda scary when pissed. Just saying. xP

Both traits worthy of emulation ;)

Colonists forcing language and culture on native peoples sounds pretty much exactly like the sort of thing we would be against.

I'm not trying to be difficult, many of the suggestions I like personally. I'm just trying to look at it from a gameplay perspective in terms of what those languages are analogues to and what the words would mean to the characters.

To me as an educated english-speaking american, I like interesting and exotic sounding names. A lot of the places I'm used to are names that have little or no meaning to me personally (I have no idea what San Francisco or Seattle mean). The culture of those places is instilled in them by history, not by the name, so the name is practically irrelevant from a long-term perspective.

To Raxus, as an uneducated multi-cultural Riverlands native, picking a name sets a tone, and instills ideas. To name a place in a language that isn't understood by the people who live there is the same as picking random gibberish. It is meaningless. We'd have to teach a new language to everyone in order to give the name meaning. To Raxus, meaning shouldn't have to be manufactured.

So, I'm curious what names your characters are most drawn to, and why.

Even Colonist like exotic names

Canada is a aboriginal word for Village.
Not French or English.

Well, unless we want to define which specific Earth languages correspond to languages in Golarion, we could pick or make up any word we like and say it means "liberty" or "freedom" in Hallit or Sylvan or Draconic or whatever language we wish, as Arumil suggested up-thread.

That's not to say that creating a list of Golarion languages and their corresponding Earth counterparts wouldn't be an interesting exercise for our game... In fact, I think that would add an interesting element. For convenience's sake, we could start by saying Common (Taldane) corresponds to English.

If you do something like that can you have it in English in a spoiler. Cause I cant translate stuff unless I am on my comp. I can post from a number of devices but not translate. >.<

As far as what name my character is drawn to, Arianna would be drawn to a name that reflects that our new nation respects and values liberty and freedom.

Or we could just take the first letters from each of our names (A, A, B, B, R, T) and arrange them into a name for our nation...

As far as what name my character is drawn to, Arianna would be drawn to a name that reflects that our new nation respects and values liberty and freedom.

Or we could just take the first letters from each of our names (A, A, B, B, R, T) and arrange them into a name for our nation...

I kinda like that idea, but I think we should look at all the first letters in the names

Me -> B,E,A, and V
Arianna -> A and S
Raxus -> R
Arumil -> A
Bydar -> B and L
Temerrith -> T

ie. SELART

Tabrab...Abrabt....Barbat....Batrab.....yeah I know, I suck. xD

Edit due to ninja- I have two A's you know. ;P

At least my twist gives some variation to the letters.

I'm still looking for meaning which would be relevant to us, and to the other people who will be living in the kingdom we found.

Languages in the River Kingdoms:

Most (90%+) people speak and/or understand:
Common (Taldane)
Hallit.

Some (20% - 50%) speak and/or understand:
Skald
Varisian
Dwarven
Elven

Few (< 10%) speak and/or understand:
Draconic
Giant
Goblin
Gnome
Orc
Sylvan

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I'll work on a guide linking real world languages to the ones on this list.

Looks like using Skald and Elven are viable options for finding a name.

Besides common, is there any language that the whole party speaks?

Languages
Me -> Skald, Sylvan,
Arumil -> Elven, Draconic, Celestial, Goblin, Orc, Undercommon, Aklo, Boggard, Sylvan,
Arianna -> Aklo, Boggard, Draconic, Giant, Gnome, Sylvan
Raxus -> Draconic, Giant,
Bydar -> Elven, Celestial,
Temerith -> Infernal

Language Known By Number of PCs
Sylvan: 3 <- in the Few category
Boggard: 2
Celestial: 2
Draconic: 2 <- in the Few category
Elven: 2 <- in the Some category
Giant: 2 <- in the Few category
Skald: 1 <- in the Some category

The lands that are already populated by fae creatures would definitely be appropriate to name in Sylvan. That could also spread to any settlements we found that are near those areas.

Looks like Sylvan and Elven are the top ones.

If you wanted to use Irish as the equivalent of Sylvan, 'Land of Liberty' would translate to 'Talamh na Saoirse'. If you use Welsh, it translates to 'Tir o Ryddid'.

Many countries are named for the people who live there, or for a prominent feature, such as its geographical location, or nearby bodies of water. Additionally, many countries are formed from parts of words with a suffix added such as -stan, -stad, -dale, -ia, -mere, and -ebon.

Going with the theme you seem to be using, you get names like:
Freedom - ia
Bastion - ia
Haven - stad
Liber - ia (from liberty; interesting since this one really exists)
Salvat - ebon (from salvation)

Just some thoughts I was having about names.

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Heraldry is another topic - using the image of a creature is not unusual, but is is by no means required. Many people and locations have simple colors and shapes that represent the country and/or family lineage. A blue shield with three white stars forming a downward-facing triangle, or a green tree on a brown field.

If it matters, the Brevoy crest is a two-headed red dragon on a quartered field of yellow and white diagonal squares. As you are founding a realm nominally under the control of Brevoy, incorporating something from their heraldry might be something to think about. Not trying to sway you one way or the other, just throwing out ideas.

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For the alternate language use, I'm thinking about keeping it really simple. So far, I haven't been able to find a definitive explanation of how the languages on Golarion developed. In lieu of that, I'm going to use my own ideas.

The basic premise is that there were a handful of languages during "the beginning" of Golarion, and all other languages are derived from them. As such, all of the languages will use the same alphabet as their progenitor. For example, the Gnome language would use the Sylvan alphabet. I'll be posting a chart containing all the languages and their parent.

Currently, the four base languages I'm thinking of using are:
Aboleth
Celestial
Draconic
Sylvan

Each of these would have a distinct alphabet, and all languages descended from them would use the same real world representation.

Does that sound like a workable and worthwhile plan?

May want to add Elven and Azlanti. Sense the elves were certainly around and the Azlanti were the first humans also around at that time. I think they would be the origin language for all human dialicts in the current age. I am guessing your stopping at around the age of legend. If you move on to the age of darkness then we get the dwarves and orcs in the mix. Hope that helps. ;)

I'm not sure I like the idea of being under the control of Brevoy.

Anyone have any good reasons for or against?

If I remember correctly, the Azlanti were raised up from barbarism by the aboleths, so the Azlanti language may have been derived from Aboleth (or at least use the alphabet).

Now with Elves being from a different planet, I'd think they would have their own base language and alphabet.

@Arianna
Sense pathfinder purposely has been hazy on the subject so far I cant find anything concrete. But from what I understand they enhanced the primitive humans, granting them higher intelligence and such. So they could have created their own language. DM call I guess.

@Raxus
That's why Arumil cant become a noble. He does not break loyalty oaths. As far as Brevoy is concerned we are under their control. They gave the charter after all. ;)

As near as I can tell, the charter isn't anything except for a call for volunteers. They aren't funding the operation, they haven't sent any of their own people or offered us any protection.

They just said "hey, go do this" and if we do we get rewarded with a title (which really just puts us under their thumb). If we don't particularly care about having a noble title from a country we don't live in, I'm not sure we have a reason to accept their rule.

I did say "nominally" but yes, the realm is going to start as a Barony of Brevoy. The ruler (and nobles) would have to accept the leader of Brevoy as their Lord.

As for accepting their rule... well, they are offering you the chance to build a realm from the ground up in any way you want, without interference. They're also going to give you resources to get it started. They want a strong - and friendly - neighbor on their southern border.

And you should also consider what they'll think if too many of you refuse the titles. You're in a land where strong people routinely create their own fiefdoms of bandits and outlaws. Part of the reason why they're offering you titles, and the opportunity to rule, is to avoid having to deal with another Stag Lord (or worse).

Ultimately, I'm fine with whatever you guys want to do. The AP assumes players take the titles, but it's not a problem for me if people don't want to go that route. Just a bit more work for me to figure things out. :)

That makes more sense, and doesn't sound quite as bad as "get these suckers to commit a coup and instill a puppet government for us"

I'm not sure I like the idea of being under the control of Brevoy.

Anyone have any good reasons for or against?

While I know weaseling around oaths would probably be frowned on, what would immediately come to Bydar's mind is that if we swear to serve the Crown of Brevoy, that is a lot better than serving the KING, and might slide. Even then, if we're lucky enough that King isn't named, given the challenges the current Regent faces to his legitimacy, that might also allow us a point of order if we need it.

Heck, even if we're pushed to swear to the King by name, if he is later declared a false king, we could agree with that, and thus since there never WAS a king so and so, then the compact is null and void.

It's all underhanded, but you know what they say the definition of a noble is: "Someone who knows best how to say one thing while thinking another" :) Bydar detests the game, but he has had training in it.

As I understand it that will not work sense I already brought up that point with Arumil already. After all he will still be pretty young when everyone else is dead and buried from old age. Which is why oaths are a big deal for him. xP

Maybe put a caveat on the oath, such as "so long as I hold this office" or something like that, so that when you want to not be bound by the oath anymore, you can just retire from whatever you were doing, court-wise.

I'm willing to go along and see what DM Haldhin has planned - we did all sign up to play 'Kingmaker' after all.

I like Raxus' suggestion, maybe phrase it as "so long as I am able." If you no longer wish to be bound by the oath, you could say you are no longer able to fulfill your duties and resign.

Raxus' idea is a good one.

Couple of things:

1. The letters giving you a noble title actually comes from Restov, but carries the seal of the Regent. Make of that what you will. ;)

And the oath of office says something to the effect of serving the lawful and legal ruler of Brevoy, not a specific person.

2. You won't get to change any of the oath wording. No caveats, subtle ways to ignore responsibilities, no deciding to back out at a later date. The only way to get out is if the ruler of Brevoy releases you. Even publicly renouncing your title won't be recognized - it may be enough for you and your conscience, but not the leader of Brevoy.

I realize I'm being strict on this, and it's intentional for the story and future events. The difference between a group of nobles and a group of commoners is huge when ruling a realm.

That said, I'm not being strict just so I can screw you later. Conflicts may arise in which you are forced to consider your oath before deciding on a course of action, but I won't be a jerk just to be a jerk. :)

1. The letters giving you a noble title actually comes from Restov, but carries the seal of the Regent. Make of that what you will. ;)

As did the exploration charters granted to us by the Swordlords of Restov. ;)

And the oath of office says something to the effect of serving the lawful and legal ruler of Brevoy, not a specific person.

Again, knowing the state of the current political landscape in Brevoy, make of that what you will... ;)

2. You won't get to change any of the oath wording. No caveats, subtle ways to ignore responsibilities, no deciding to back out at a later date. The only way to get out is if the ruler of Brevoy releases you. Even publicly renouncing your title won't be recognized - it may be enough for you and your conscience, but not the leader of Brevoy.

I realize I'm being strict on this, and it's intentional for the story and future events. The difference between a group of nobles and a group of commoners is huge when ruling a realm.

That said, I'm not being strict just so I can screw you later. Conflicts may arise in which you are forced to consider your oath before deciding on a course of action, but I won't be a jerk just to be a jerk. :)

And again, this is what we all signed up for when we applied to play in the 'Kingmaker' campaign. I say bring it on!

For Freelandia!

You know, Freeland isn't a bad name.

When I saw "Freeland" I immediately thought of Breeland. Just watched Fellowship this weekend. :)

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I thought about the other languages, but I'm going to keep it at the four I listed. I've got some reasons, none of which are really important or vital for our game, but Arumil and Arianna are on the right track.

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I'll be surprised if we're not finished with this adventure in the next couple of weeks. I am going to do my best to get all of the additional information and rules documents posted into the group no later than this weekend to give everyone a chance to look through it.

Some will be IC knowledge, and will be clearly marked as such.

Also, I would like to start referring to "hexes" as "provinces" going forward. We're going to need to start thinking in those terms as the realm starts growing.

I'm updating the map now and will be including some province names for reference. New map may not be ready for a day or so, but will be posted soon.

Got Ultimate Campaign and the kingdom rules look like they have been upgraded and includes new options, even ruler positions.

Their is a lot of new optional systems and content in there.

Good to know, thanks for the update! Definitely looking forward to getting it.

Waiting on your PM. ;-)

I know. Just been hectic around the house. You'll have it today.

I figured which is why I have not posted much. Also wanted to see what everyone else wanted to do first.

@DM
PM sent, let me know if you got it. Site is being mean to me today. >.<

I got it, thanks. Will look it over and respond later tonight or early tomorrow.

I've uploaded another province map with names. All of the explored regions have names except for those lands under control of Howl and Sootscale. I'm going to start using these province names in updates to help clarify where things are happening.

Hey everyone, sorry for my absence. I've been sick as a dog with a sinus infection, and this is the first I've felt like sitting up in front of a computer in a few days. Working to catch up now.

That sucks, glad your feeling better

Thanks!

Agreed, glad you're doing better!