Into the Stolen Lands

Game Master Inneliese

Discussion thread for GM Inneliese's Taming the Stolen Lands campaign (Kingmaker Adventure Path)

Please report in here so I know you're in for the game and I don't need to replace you with someone else before the game has even started. I will start up the Gameplay thread this evening after I get home, because I want to have time to also get a few basic maps, images, etc posted.

Quick survey: is everyone okay with me setting up an Obsidian Portal wiki for the campaign to keep track of places, people, 'quests', etc?

Present and ready! ^^

I have no experience with Obsidian Portal, but I'm cool with a wiki. ;)

Obsidian portal is super easy, actually! You basically just sign up, and it emails you whenever something gets updated. As a minor suggestion, you're probably going to want to make a folder to automatically send the stuff into... because depending on the level of activity, it can get spammy fast. :P

Updating sheet to fit the changes. :)

So, when would you like to wake up to a half-feral stare, Ary? :p

Inneliese: How hard would it be to commission a ring of sustenance? :>

I've little experience with Obsidian but I've nothing against it. Do you want us to use IC or OOC profiles when we post here?

XD If you multiclass into Cleric or Oracle and take Forge Ring, you could make it for yourself. Or you could take Forge Ring and invest heavily in Use Magic Device, then use a scroll to make the thing.

Hai! I have never used obsidian portal before, but go for it.

IC or OOC profile makes no difference to me here on the discussion page.

I should like to point out that another route for crafting your own ring(s) or other magic items as a non-caster would be the Master Craftsman feat. If you cannot cast a spell required for crafting a magic item, that just increases the crafting DC by 5.

That said, typically you can commission any magical item you can afford... but may need to mail-order it from a larger city. (2-4 weeks delay in 99% of cases. Longer if you want something highly customized or really rare, like a +3 axiomatic spiked chain.)

I'm here on my phone for another hour love obsidian portal

I'm afraid that, unless my edition of the Core Rulebook is incorrect, Master Craftsman is only good for Craft wondrous item and Craft magic arms & armour. ^^; Unless you're implementing a house rule to the contrary...? :)

:P Well, technically, Ary would never have need of Master Craftsman... her goddess will provide her with magical capabilities at 4th level. :)

Eh, I'd house-rule for rings. It's wands, potions, scrolls, rods, and staves that really shouldn't be permitted under Master Craftsman. Rings fit the flavor of the feat every bit as much as wondrous items and arms/armor. To be honest, I've never understood why Forge Ring is separate from Craft Wondrous Item. The skillset needed to an enchant a magic ring and the skillset needed to enchant a magic necklace/bracelet/earring/etc would logically seem to be the same, no?

Effectively, yes. But they also split up several spell-trigger things, and spell enhancement things that are essentially just 'tiny stick' 'stick' and 'bigger stick' as well. :P That's why in most of my campaigns I reduce it to craft consumable, craft spell trigger, and craft wondrous. Yeah, it's a lot of power, but at the same time, making a player spend 3 feats to help gear up the party seems kind of lame, when it's reasonable just to charge the one... after all, one feat can make a huge difference in when a character can or can't do something.

I never found gear to be a problem in Pathfinder. Good tactics and teamwork let you beat any encounter really. But if magic items are a concern, well, you know who you'll want to attract to come and settle in our 'kingdom to be' *winks*

Excited to be here! I've never done this campaign before but have heard wonderful things.

I've also never used Obsidian Portal but it looks easy enough.

Geliglee eventually intends to pick up a couple of crafting feats so we'll see how that works out. I doubt Forge Ring will be such a feat, however.

How do we feel about leadership feat. One reason I ask is that could be a way for us to bring in some quality Craftsman and some non-NPC members of the council, when it comes time.

For what it is worth, I won't be taking leadership nor will I be taking any crafting feats.

Can we get a Game Thread to dot to make it easier to keep track?

I was planning to take craft wondrous item when we hit level 3, unless anyone objects.

Oops, sorry, I fell asleep when I got home halfway through writing up the game thread post. The first campaign post is up now.

P33J - This AP actually encourages taking the Leadership feat, so it will be fully available to anyone interested. Also, did you know that your alias' last name is misspelled?

Yeah, I'll fix it, I've got another post before it's permanent.

I was just looking over some of the newer classes in the advanced class guide... and am I missing something, or do they all just seem to be -better- than the base classes? Like Arcanist can take a level or sorcerer and 19 of arcanist, and gain all the sorcerer bloodline abilities... leaving sorcerer with roughly nothing arcanist can't do better. Or you could go 1 wizard, then 19 arcanist, and get all of the wizard's school abilities with a more flexible spell pool... meaning they beat them out in just about every way as well. Brawler just seems like a monk that gets a wider pool of bonus feats, Hunter is a ranger that gets teamwork feats and a better pet... I really need to know what I'm missing that makes them even with base classes.

The hunter has 3/4 BAB, only gets up to level 6 spells and as such is a hybrid of the druid and ranger. The druid is 'better', but the druid itself is an insanely powerful class.

The arcanist needs two stats and doesn't hold up against certain wizards. As for sorcerers, they're a pretty meh class to begin with.

And the Rogue needs a whole lot of love, because as it is, it is the worst class by far.

The way I look at Hunter, I see it as more of an improved version of the Inquisitor, in many ways. Mostly because I just dislike the overall flavor of inquisitors, but -love- teamwork feats. I personally love Hunter for its theme. I can't really tell whether it's OP compared to other options, but I have to say it looks really fun. It's one of the few that I've had a chance to look at that I didn't go 'what were they thinking?'

What's really messed up is that in almost every case, the stuff that makes the class from ACG better is something that was changed or added after the end of the playtest. The bloodline development ability for arcanists in the playtest didn't give the ability to dip one level into sorcerer and gain all bloodline abilities up to and including the capstone.

Really? Without having to spend a point? And to be frank, the sorcerer is a weak sauce class to begin with. The wizard is better in every regard, except for the gimmick cross-blooded blaster sorc at lvl1-3.

.. and even then, a wizard with sleep and color spray might do better .. in the end, it's up to the DM and the players to make sure everyone has a fun game ^^

I personally abhor playing wizard... it just feels so... lacking. They have a tool for everything except getting hit in the face... and even then. I feel like they just wind up being way over the top if played 'right' and nearly useless if played wrong. Sorcerer, on the other hand, has so many themes to play with. Crossblooded or not. Eldritch Heritage is one of my all-time favorite feats, just because while it doesn't always add a ton of power, it helps to flesh out a character as something beyond the pale.

Sorcerer just feels more 'fun' to me, even if it's -entirely- suboptimal.

Well, there is the downside that Sorcerer levels don't stack with Arcanist levels for purposes of spellcasting, so you'll have delayed access to higher level spells, but on the plus side you get expanded access to cantrips and 1st level spells if you don't care about caster level. One level of delayed access to spellcasting and one Arcanist exploit seems a really cheap price for full access to all of the abilities granted by a bloodline.

Overall, here's my opinion on the new classes:

Arcanist - All the best features of both the Sorcerer and Wizard classes, none of the drawbacks, and lots of nice exploits to choose from. Verdict: much stronger than existing classes

Bloodrager - Slightly smaller hit die, restricted to bloodline powers and feats instead of getting to pick from the list of rage powers, and in exchange gains some really weak access to spellcasting ability. Verdict: themed Barbarian, might actually be weaker

Brawler - Monk without all the ki and wuxia. Trades a lot of abilities, but seems to come out on top, having a better BAB, better hit die, better form of maneuver training, etc. Verdict: slightly better, gives a non-'Eastern' option

Hunter - Honestly, this class seems to sit dead in the middle between Druid and Ranger, and as a result feels better at being 'the class with the animal companion' than either. Does have lower BAB than Ranger and doesn't have full spellcasting like a Druid though, which makes the class more reliant on the animal companion. Verdict: strong class, but doesn't invalidate either pre-existing class

Investigator - I've never liked Alchemist, but this class actually looks intriguing, so it's a bit unfair to judge it. So I'll just skip to the Verdict: Only way to get me to play an Alchemist, and seems reasonably balanced against the Rogue

Shaman - One of the more balanced classes in the book, does a great job of providing a hybrid between the themed abilities of the Oracle and the overall class design of the Witch. The only 'issue' with this class is because of a single hex available to a single spirit, which apparently many forum dwellers seem to feel is the most powerful ability in the game. Whatever. Will definitely be playing around with this class, so don't be surprised to run into a Shaman or three in this AP. Verdict: not too powerful, not too weak, maintains a unique feel

Skald - What's not to like about this class? It has a much smaller hit die and BAB than the Barbarian, less DR, etc... but gains almost all the abilities of a Bard. Best of all, the Skald turns all allies who can hear him/her into Barbarians! Verdict: really strong class, extremely thematic, arguably 'better' than the base classes, but doesn't replace them

Slayer - Though it has a less powerful sneak attack than Rogues, it has a better BAB and a lot of bonuses to attack, meaning it will hit far more often. Overall, I would say it's essentially a far more accurate Rogue with a bit of a theme. Verdict: stronger than the Rogue, but somewhat less versatile

Swashbuckler - As a big fan of the Aldori Swordlords, I love this class, since when combined with the Slashing Grace feat, it seems a perfect match for that swordfighting style... but there's a lot of people raging over that feat on the forums, and there's definitely some issues regarding the abilities of this class that cause issues for forum play. Having given it some consideration, if I were going to GM a campaign with a Swashbuckler character, I would require the player to announce deeds they wanted to use in advance, much like readying an action. (ie, "My character will spend 1 panache to attempt to make an Opportune Parry and Riposte against the first attacker to make a melee attack against me before my next turn. Here's my roll to parry, and here's my rolls to attack and damage if successful.") Verdict: love this class, but presents some issues for the PbP environment, seems reasonably balanced

Warpriest - It's a Paladin with no alignment restrictions. There was clearly an attempt to keep people from preferring Lawful Good Warpriests of Iomedae over Paladins of Iomedae, given the smaller hit die, slower BAB progression, lack of Smite Evil, and slower fervor (lay on hands) progression. But the Warpriest definitely shines quite brightly, and I expect you'll see a few LG Warpriests, since they've got better spellcasting, have a versatile form of divine bond for both weapons and armor, gain monk damage progression for their deity's favored weapon and any weapon they take Weapon Focus in... and can use fervor to cast self-target spells as a swift action. Verdict: very strong class, arguably better than the Paladin, but still lacking in a few core areas that will ensure Iomedae still receives a steady flow of Paladins.

I still think the wizard is stronger. Faster casting progression, only needs one stat, gets bonus feats starting with the amazing scribe scroll at 1 and roughly casts the same amount of spells per day while having more freedom in memorizing what he wants. The faster progression is so amazing .. *swoons*

Maybe not for blasting, but if you're using magic for blasting, you're doing it wrong anyways! *sticks out tongue* ;)

Eh. ^^ At the end of the day, it's all about which class people think is fun to play, and how they make it work for them.

I feel like you missed a few things with Brawler:

Spontaneous access to entire lines of feats. Suddenly, the 'monk' has whirlwind attack the moment he's surrounded. Or he has greater trip and stomp the moment he needs to trip an opponent, and isn't saddled with the bad feat line when he's fighting a gargantuan octoped. Or he has access to an entire style line, the moment he desires it, making him better than the master of Many styles in -most- ways. He gets the best progression on things like Stunning Fist, and has access to weapon specialization and other fighter yummies. He gets a better -base- pool of feats than a monk as well... and basically gives up a little self-enchantment, and a lot of movespeed for it. The movespeed hurts. But the ability to be a spontaneous-caster, with all spells ever in their list of spells known (in the form of feats. Just drawing a comparison), makes brawler just... insane. Insane in book-keeping as well. I don't recommend letting a player play this class, unless you're very capable of knowing every feat. I know -I- don't want to have to read three feats every combat encounter, just to make sure I understand the full ramifications of what they're about to do.

New post up, will try to be posting within a couple hours of noon PDT every day, and again if I see that everyone has managed to get in at least one post before that. (So, if I post at 1pm and all six of you have posted at least once when I check at 7pm, I'll try to get a second post by 8pm.)

Ary - That's a fair point, and definitely overpowered in a 1-2 encounters/day format like Kingmaker, but in most APs, you'll quickly burn through daily uses of that power if using it for three feats, which is the most you can have active until level 20. And a lot of chains (like Whirlwind Attack) are comprised of far more than 3 feats, so the Brawler will still have to invest in those chains to gain access. (One of the iconic characters I would likely build as a Brawler, Little John from the Robin Hood mythos, would need to invest three feats into the Tripping Twirl chain just to gain access to that particular feat at level 10, when the class ability grants access to up to 3 feats at once.)

Weird, I got the campaign page bookmarked but I didn't see any 'new posts' @ the gameplay thread! I'll catch up now.

That should set itself right just as soon as you've posted in the gameplay thread. It'll tag you into the thread. I was having the very same issue, and still am with another thread I'm following.

@Inn: Also bear in mind, that a lot of the feat trees have good all around base feats. Like Dodge and Mobility, while not perfectly ideal in all builds, still aren't -bad-. Combat Expertise is outright lifesaving sometimes, Power Attack is that thing everyone gets... so on and so forth. Combat Expertise, then being able to use any combat maneuver you like... is just awesome.

Also, picking out Libi's tricks now: Exclusive, Serve(Kira, at least for now), Come, Heel, Stay, Flee.

As an aside: Is there any way to set a default alias just for a specific thread?

It 'should' remember the alias you use most often for campaigns, but it seems rather haphazard.

Everything bad I ever said about ACG I take back. I am absolutely in love with Shaman, because I can finally make my namesake character in pathfinder. I played Her for roughly 2 years, pretty much every day, in a living world RP online. Pretty much all of her abilities are covered, but I stopped writing her story a few weeks in... and stopped keeping up with social stuff shortly after.

Pyotr doesn't know Paza's name, he was having a memory and the fact that Elyza and Paza end the same was fortuitous

@ Pyotr: Duly noted. ^^

@ Arnulf: the hostility is purely IC, okay? Wolves don't generally like having bears amble into their den. ;)

I know, don't worry! ;D

Inneliese: I just realized that in order to make things run more smoothly, I should go ahead and clearly define reactions for Ary with her current skillset.

Also, I fully approve of making that distinction on Paza's part. I always worry about whether someone will take things personally, but I'm also always afraid to broach the topic (because they may take it personally that I felt I needed to say it! XD)

@Arnulf: All bears are gargantuan furmonsters. Pretty sure our new pet gnome could fit in his belly.

Call me John Cusack, because you can say anything to me. Hehe, but honestly, you can. I got small toes ;-)

So... apparently I failed my Perception check abysmally, because I only just now realized that I picked a group that is a perfect 50/50 split male/female.

One small note: even a Small bear is still going to weigh about as much as if not more than half the members of the party.

Also, been slowly putting stuff together to build a wiki, should have something to show you all by the time the first major combat is over.

At least that makes the 'royal consort' an attainable position. Somehow I got the impression that said consort will be a man tho *laughs*

Well, strictly speaking...

A. If the ruler's spouse is of 'equal station', they take the position of co-ruler rather than consort.

B. There's probably a good chance that neighboring kingdoms might be interested in sealing a treaty/alliance with a political marriage.

C. No restrictions on who the ruler may marry except whatever rules the party drafts into law. (I would prefer not to have to roleplay an entire harem of royal consorts though, so let me state that I discourage that particular route.)

have to roleplay an entire harem of royal consorts

+1 We need to observe Calistria's will before we earn her ire.

Oops, my bad - been watching too much Firefly lately! Consort is indeed the wrong word. Queen consort and prince consort would be the right ones. And it's a shame I'm not playing Prince Ali ..

I have literally been singing that -all day- at work. My coworker hates me.

I actually don't like Disney movies all that much, but I love 'A Whole New World'. A friend and I already agreed that we're going to karaoke it one day. After a copious amount of beer *laughs*

.. maybe Arnulf and Ary can sing it one day while flying over the Greenbelt on the back of a Roc companion. Okay, maybe not.

'Don't like Disney movies.' You monster. Lilo and Stitch is a work of art.