Misha Stormborn |
Sorry, posting soon as my raid is done for the morning :p
Scath Lynx |
Hi all,
My apologies, this last week has been... stressful. I had to fly to another state to deal with a family issue. My father had to undergo a semi-routine medical procedure, but he had some sort of breakdown during the procedure. The doctors suspect it's from the anesthetic, it's put him in a state of dementia. We're hoping he will recover, but the week was extremely busy and very draining. I spent most of last night and today sleeping.
I'll try to get back to posting regularly.
MDT
Victor 'Manhunter' Stone |
Wow, that is unfortunate. I hope he does get better.
Victor 'Manhunter' Stone |
That's alright with me. Though, wouldn't that give me an attack on the hellhound now?
Hot DM |
Well, he didn't charge, so there's that. An attack of opportunity is a maybe. Technically, you don't threaten the square two diagonals away, but I've been letting it slide so far, as it didn't really affect the narrative at all. I'm not particularly worried about you exploding the hellhound, regardless. :)
Also, worth noting: There's no such thing as difficult terrain in the area any longer; the crowd has vacated.
Victor 'Manhunter' Stone |
It's fine either way. I just wanted to be ready if the thing tried to get into melee.
Hot DM |
Yup. Nox isn't giving it a very long leash, so to speak. Had it tried to charge, things would have went very differently, I think :p You'd have hit the poor thing for 20. :P (Crit wouldn't have confirmed, 4 on the d10 :)) But the hound would have been quite surprised, all the same. :)
Victor 'Manhunter' Stone |
This is going to be an interesting fight I see...
Hot DM |
:P Yeah, sorry Victor. When the party is level 1, it's a lot more clear that 'when the hellhound comes out, it's time to go', storywise. :)
It might be an interesting fight later though... yeah? :)
Anyone who uses a full-round action to leave can just get out freely at this point. (The book even says so!)
Victor 'Manhunter' Stone |
Yeah, that I already had figured out. It's just in-character to cover the party until they start moving. Then I'm out.
Hot DM |
Alright, so, before any combat can begin, once more, I need for everybody to tell me specifically which type of initiative they want. "I don't care" will get you put into the group form of initiative.
What I have so far:
Individual: Armon, Victor
Group: Tobias, Misha
Doesn't Care: Scath, Juniper?
Victor 'Manhunter' Stone |
Ah, right.
I prefer individual, but I can go with whatever and it will be fine.
Misha Stormborn |
Will wait to see what Scath and Juniper say :p
Scath Lynx |
Scath already said don't care.
Hot DM |
Wouldn't have thought Scath was flat footed. Wouldn't think anyone was flat footed, no surprise going on... If he's hit, he's hit 3 times (FF = 14), or he's missed entirely if we're not flat footed
I thought about that, and was leaning very much towards 'no flat-footed', but by the letter of the rules it's apparently true. And I leaned towards treating you as flat-footed because it would be punishing later for enemies to not be treated as flat-footed because they were aware of combat, if that makes sense.
Again, I totally agree, but I didn't want to hold up everything to ask what people thought, and went with the thing that would benefit you more later, since you will be using sneak attack.
That being said, I'm also leaning towards you having 'acted during the surprise round', and thus no damage as well. It's a lot of conflicting stuff, given the situation, and I'm not 100% on how I should handle it. I -personally- think it's stupid for people who are aware of each other to be treated as flat-footed before they act 'in combat', but the rules explicitly say it that way. I'm open to changing that 100% (especially since I disagree with it), but I'd rather everyone be on board for 'what makes sense' over 'what the book says'. And I definitely didn't want to change something that might be beneficial to you later on a whim. :)
Thoughts?
mdt |
Actually, letter of the rules says there is no surprise round this combat.
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Since everyone was aware of the thugs, and they were all aware of us (due to the talking), there's no surprise round. At worst, since the thugs were not aware of Scath if he made his stealth checks, and he was aware of them, he can't be flat footed. At most, they can be flat footed, and get no action at all in the surprise round if they were unaware of him. That interpretation would say that Scath and his allies would go in the surprise round, and they wouldn't.
However, the statement originally was that everyone had a double move, and Scath only used a single move. So he moved into sight of everyone prior to combat starting, and thus everyone was aware of everyone, thus no surprise round.
My $0.02 worth.
Hot DM |
Yeah, I wanted everyone to determine individually whether to move to help, or to outright avoid the encounter.
To be clear, are you suggesting that combat was already active for everyone involved? Because technically, the other guys haven't 'left combat', and that definitely makes sense from that point of view. Likewise, I could go with the fact that they weren't aware of Scath until he announced his presence (thus, he wasn't flat footed, because he acted during the enemy's initiative (edit: initiative -> combat).
Victor 'Manhunter' Stone |
Don't forget. Everyone is flat-footed at the beginning of combat until they make a move in combat, completely unrelated to whether they are surprised or not. A lot of people forget that rule.
Flat-Footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
So Scath is flat-footed because he's moving after the thugs.
Scath Lynx |
Well, if we're going that route, then Scath couldn't have dropped down until after their move. I'm fine with however we are doing it, but it seems odd that Scath could move into the middle of 3 people and then be considered flat footed to them. Either combat started when everyone became aware of each other, in which case our initial actions were the surprise round, or combat started with no surprise round and we moved on our initiatives. Either way, Scath should not have been flat footed in the center of the enemies.
If it was 'surprise round was our initial actions' then we all got full round actions on the surprise round, which is counter intuitive.
If it was 'no surprise round, initial movements and talking was first round of combat' then everything would have happened as it did, but nobody is flat footed (because everyone acted).
However, I can't see any way within the rules for Scath to have moved into the middle of the trio and then be flat footed.
Hot DM |
Works for me, being aware of them should mean that you're not flat footed. Even if the rules are really stupid about this. I mean, it's not like you would be surprised they'd try to hit you. Their intentions were clear... sooo. I'm just doing my best to avoid making judgment calls on how rules should be interpreted, and instead going with the 'letter' of it, until folks have had a chance to talk about it.
mdt |
That's not what I mean Hot DM.
What I'm saying is, either combat started when we all got there, and our first round of actions was the first round of combat, so the flat-footedness already occurred (by the rules), or, the first round we moved was surprise round, and we had too many actions. As soon as we started using combat round actions (full vs move/move vs move/standard) we entered combat. So any flat footedness should have been the previous round, with the exception of the baddies possibly being flat footed vs Scath, if they failed their perceptions on his stealth. Since he didn't attack, it makes no difference if they were or weren't, so it didn't matter.
But from a rules stand point, something went haywire, as either the first round was surprise and we moved too much, or the first one was a non-surprise first combat round, and people were flat footed until we moved. Either way, the current round of combat doesn't have flat footed at all, for anyone who moved last round.
Hot DM |
I'll explain what was going on and why I went with it the way that I did:
By the book, they're preparing to coup de grace the guy on the ground as you come into view. As such, you only really have a single round to decide whether to intervene or not. I had everyone make one full 'round' of actions because the -enemy- was in combat, whether you guys were or not. In effect, you joined a battle as it was happening, but you weren't in combat until you literally dropped into combat.
So, over the next '6 seconds', they were going to kill him. Scath (and the others) intervened, preventing the coups entirely. That's why the edge case is a mess. I can totally see it as your movement putting you into combat, which prevents the flat footed, because you were aware, and entered the combat... if that makes sense.
Is there any sort of ruling for surprise rounds mid-combat?
mdt |
No, so what that was then was a 'first round of combat with no surprise round' for us, and Round X of combat for them. Which was the second option.
We were basically flat footed until we took actions last round (we all made our perceptions, or we would have been in a surprise round situation, which would be confusing. We'd basically get a single action is the way I usually house rule it, but there's no core rules).
So, last round, Scath was flat footed until his action to climb the building, and then with his second half action to drop down in the middle of everyone.
You ran it correctly for interrupting an existing combat, just the description was slightly confusing. Since it's the second round of the combat (from their perspective), Scath's not flat footed, since he was flat footed last round. Last round, before we acted, the thugs could have shot at us with a bow or something and hit flat foot ac.
Armon Jarvis |
I should probably assume that Armon's family doesn't have a huge, pimped out mansion. Or if he does, he probably won't for much longer. :P
Hot DM |
That depends. Each of the major families have a manor in The Greens (the ritziest part of town). The houses are fairly huge, easily more than 40,000 square feet for the first floor alone. Most are multistory, and have their own grounds. So it's not at all unreasonable to suspect the extended family living there. Otherwise, you're free to have a smaller home for your family, if you'd like.
Armon Jarvis |
Wait, how closely related is Armon to the family matriarch/patriarch? The trait wasn't exactly very specific in regards to that.
Hot DM |
The trait isn't exactly very specific in regards to that. :)
Also, I added Rexus's larger picture to the minor list of NPCs on the list of everything ever.
Misha Stormborn |
So You Want to Read and Write hahaha. Who is the intended audience of that book? Illiterate sorcerers with comprehend languages? ;)
Hot DM |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I decided that it was a pretentious book on how to critique books and create successful works of literature (among other things). :)
Also, I just realized I kind of dragged my feet last night. I probably should have continued the scene. I'm not fully used to scene changes and the like, and how to handle them. :)
Granted, people seem to be going with the 'look around and enjoy' route rather than heading straight on. :P So maybe not so much.
Scath Lynx |
Really just depends on how the beams/rafters are set up.
If we're talking about Flush Mounted Beams, then no, he wouldn't climb up on those and hang.
If we're talking about vaulted ceiling beams or open ceiling beams (see below), then he would crawly stealthfully up on top of one and hide.
Hot DM |
Yeah, I was imagining the former, rather than the latter. I'll get a post up soon, just have to get everything else done first. :o
I'll also be out tonight for the regular RP night, so I'll try to get a lot of information up - If I can - for you guys to interact with. The major issue is that Rexus is likely to stick around unless you run him off. There's also a bit of stuff to do before we even move things forward to the 'next quest' as it were..
Hot DM |
Also, forewarning. Kineticist's Supercharge ability, RAW does something I don't feel is RAI. The normal Gather Power grants the lowered cost to only infusions. Supercharge does not say it is infusion only. It says all wild talents. I'm going to keep it restricted to infusion only, because infinite healing at no cost is just BS. :) (Among other things.)
Armon Jarvis |
I don't think it works that way RAW, either; Supercharge activates when using Gather Power, and Gather Power can only be used on blast talents, so it follows that Supercharge only works on blast talents.
One of those A=B and B=C, so A=C things. :P
Edit: Disclaimer: The kineticist still boggles my mind. I don't even know how to arrange its abilities on the traditional Paizo character sheet. :P
Misha Stormborn |
Yeah, that's the way I interpreted it too. It just makes Gather Power better, doesn't change what it's used on :)
There's definitely a lot to keep track of on them too. The biggest thing is just making sure your Burn/NLDamage are tracked properly though :)
Misha Stormborn |
But I like jumping far! :p
Also until 5 I'll have to eat burn if I want to charge/attack, although I suppose I could just ranged attack :P