Hell's Rebels, Rise of the Silver Ravens

Game Master Red Velvet Tiger

That will surely look amazing, even more when I do a handle animal roll for entertain tricks on my (later) large companion^^

You said that we can request drawbacks. Would any of the following be ok for Jax?
Lovesick(Shensen or a PC)
Nervous
Meticulous
Spooked

Well, yesterday was productive! Finally finished Fallout 4 at level 89 and teared up at the ending! T_T Today was less fun, with a 'fun' double shift but I finally got done with that sodding garbage.

Deadline for submissions is 3 days. Work diligently!

Jongarret: No, I just thought you were asking for it for free! My mistake. :)

Oyzar: Any of those can be used if you provide proper story justification.

No more questions for the lady?

Gah, free? That would be madness. But no, since Merciful works, Blink is all done.

My preference among those would be Lovesick with a female PC, but I realize there might actually not be such a thing in the party and even if it will, the player might not be a willing target. For that drawback it makes sense to wait with further description until after selection. For example Jax could meet that other PC at the protest and fall in love at first sight (or do so after interacting with her), but depending on who it is he could also meet her in the city at some point. The fallback would probably be nervous as it makes a lot of sense with his background already. For this reason I would wait with chosing much further as well as wait with describing how he falls in love. Is that ok?

Would you allow Mark of Slavery as a drawback? I think it would be rather fitting for Rett. (It should definitely have some impact, with him rolling Intimidate in combat a lot.)

With the given trait, would you allow Finish the Fight as a gnoll racial trait? It seems like something that would be pretty natural to them.

Oyzar: That is okay.

Cydrius: Yes and yes. Just remember the golden rule of intimidate: although by RAW anyone not immune to fear can be intimidated, there are those for whom words mean nothing. Devils for instance are immune to intimidate. What does a creature living for eons in Hell have to fear from a mortal after all?

Err, by RAW, anything immune to fear can ALSO be intimidated if it's intelligent. But there's reasons to play it differently.

Oyzar: That is okay.

Cydrius: Yes and yes. Just remember the golden rule of intimidate: although by RAW anyone not immune to fear can be intimidated, there are those for whom words mean nothing. Devils for instance are immune to intimidate. What does a creature living for eons in Hell have to fear from a mortal after all?

My character is much more based on intimidate than Cydrius' character. This change in the rules pretty much invalidates the entire mechanical focus of my character. It would have been nice if you had informed us of such a drastic change earlier. Though of course there is always a danger that the GM changes monsters you face I guess... I thought this would be a wonderful opportunity to try out an intimidate focused character as I don't anticipate too much vermin/swarms/constructs/undead. I hadn't anticipated this homebrew rule though. I thought only a minority of the outsiders would be immune, if any at all.

As for what do Devils have to fear? Someone higher on the pecking order. Most of the order in Hell is based on fear. It's the reason lesser Devils serve greater ones, because of fear. Intimidation is all about convincing the target that this is not a fight worth taking. The Devils very much understand that concept.

"Your souls will burn in the flames of the everlight. Flames so pure that it can burn away hellfire! You thought the worst fate you can face here is to be killed and sent back to hell, but I promise you something far worse!" Jax Practically shouts, the flame tattoo on his face moving like flickering flame as he speaks.

@thunderbeard: I don't think arguing out from a RAW standpoint is going to help much. RAI trumps RAW for most GMs.

Personally I'd say whether you can intimidate a devil depends on how you relate to it on a scale of power.

Threatening to hit an imp with a big shoe should work I think. Sure, it is used to Hell but physical pain still isn't something it likes. If you are strong enough to crush a devil it should be afraid, if only because it will get punished for it's failure after you kick it's ass and it's sent back to Hell. The threat there doesn't come directly from your actions, though I can't imagine getting killed is pleasurable for a devil even if it gets reborn, it comes from the consequences of it's own failure to succeed.

Threatening a Kyton with physical harm on the other hand would probably just rile it up and make it more eager to fight you. I guess they are best threatened with containment and sensory deprivation.

That would actually be really cool, to require an intimidate check to contain the correct kind of threat depending on the target. To make the correct threat would then require a knowledge check (using metagame information is obviously not good).

I stand with oyzar here, GM, I feel like you're nerfing intimidate-based builds for no good reason, and I urge you to reconsider this ruling.

It seems like both oyzar and I had some designs on characters looking to strike fear in the hearts of evil, and this puts a serious damper on that. (My build picks up more intimidation later on, with Cornugon Smash, Dazzling Display, and so on.)

I fail to see how a holy warrior with a holy great sword and divine blessings out the wazoo would not intimidate the devils he is very clearly capable of slaying and banishing to another hundred years in hell. Plus, as oyzar said, facing their superiors.

That goes for just about any creature that feels pain: Is being torn limb from limb not a scary thought for just about anything that has the ability to feel pain?

With a nerf to intimidate like this in place, I'll probably have to rethink that side of the character, which, I must admit, I had grown rather fond of.

While I like the idea of needing to know what the creature might fair in concept, I feel like, in action, requiring the use of one skill to use another would be rather problematic for classes with low skill points like the Fighter or Paladin. Would "figuring out what someone fears and using it against them" not be easily explainable as "skilled in intimidation?"

Please, GM, think of this decision again. What is gained from this nerf?

Sure, the average mortal can't frighten a devil, but are PCs not normally heroes of the highest caliber? Are they not above the normal cut? That is why Devils could potentially be intimidated: The idea that this one mortal may, in fact, be able to do horrible things to them has every right to be intimidating.

Heck I built an intimidate build myself, and honestly I consider the ability abused. I would not allow something immune to fear to be intimidated. It just doesn't make sense.

Obviously creatures who are immune to fear can't be intimidated. No issue there.

The issue discussed is non-immune creatures like devils being made un-intimidateable arbitrarily, nerfing intimidate users.

Now I would say making things arbitrarily immune would be bad, though making them tougher to intimidate would be fair enough. The intimidate rules really are too hard to resist. I've been trying to figure out a fair way to limit them for some time after we had a party bard make a build which abused the heck out of them based on a character who would have trouble harming a slug.

Perhaps requiring that the intimidator actually pose a credible threat could work, haha.

Is there a reason the character creation rules are so high powered? Will you up the power-level of the AP, or is it just difficult by default?

RAW, Devils aren't immune to fear or intimidate. Even RAI is iffy, as they do feel emotion and can be scared s#@$less.

That being said, if the DM says they're immune, then they're immune. Its called a houserule and houserules trump all other rules.

Is it a nerf to intimidate builds? Sure. Would it make a build useless in this campaign? Nope! Even someone who primarily uses fire attacks would still survive in this campaign.. he'd just need to figure out how to hurt a fire-immune devil. Thats when you bring in the holy water :)

Is there a reason the character creation rules are so high powered? Will you up the power-level of the AP, or is it just difficult by default?

Yeah she's gonna be beefing it up quite a bit, I asked her the same thing in private messages. Thats why I'm applying even though I'm DMing it elsewhere. Gonna be fuuuuun and I can't wait to see what she does with it :D

RAW, Devils aren't immune to fear or intimidate. Even RAI is iffy, as they do feel emotion and can be scared s&+#less.

That being said, if the DM says they're immune, then they're immune. Its called a houserule and houserules trump all other rules.

Is it a nerf to intimidate builds? Sure. Would it make a build useless in this campaign? Nope! Even someone who primarily uses fire attacks would still survive in this campaign.. he'd just need to figure out how to hurt a fire-immune devil. Thats when you bring in the holy water :)

Of course the GM is free to have as many houserules as she wants. I just said it would have been nice to know about it earlier. I would certainly have built a different character if I knew. I don't have time to build a different character now though...

I didn't even ask her to change it, though I would be happy if she did so as it would make my character much more viable in more instances. I did give some reasons for why it makes sense that Devils can be intimidated though.

Okay, so good and bad news!

The good news: recruitment closes tomorrow and selections will be a day or two after that!

The bad news: a woman at my workplace, let's call her Suzy Q. to conceal her real name, has decided to lay off her 2nd shift work because of a sprained pinky finger... so I will be working double shifts until someone fills in for me on Sunday!

My posting will likely be as bloody scarce as it has been the last two days for that period of time as a result. :(

Intimidate: I will perhaps allow for it to be used on select devils but the fear effect cannot reach over a certain level. There is actually a way to cause panicked condition on successful intimidates by taking a few obscure feats and what I think is a trait. No one wants a 'godlike sleep witch' scenario arising from intimidate. Or rather, I don't! And flavorwise some villains just don't make sense being scared by a mortal without sufficient cause. Seeing a pit fiend cowering to a mortal for anything reason other than using feigned fear as a ploy or mockery to mess with the mortals head is just weird, unless they have a permadeath/containment thingie. Imps will definitely be subject to full fear though.

Thank you for reconsidering. I would suggest discussing that one more in depth if an intimidate using character is selected, just to make sure the expectations are clear..

I look forward to your selections. Good luck, everyone!

My main issue was immersion-breaking moments.

Divinitus once ran WotR for me and a few friends years ago when it first came out as a home campaign session. One of our players decided to make an intimidate bard. Well, the whole game was basically other PCs stand while he talked and scared away demons, mad cultists, and undead just by making colorful threats to them.

That sort of soured the as-written rules of intimidate and some of the feats that make it busted. Same thing goes with diplomacy, although bluff thankfully has a mechanism in place to prevent TOO MUCH abuse.

I am just of the firm belief that not every situation can be solved with words because some things are just too sodding thick or arrogant to really care, yeah?

I usually just add circumstantial bonuses or penalties. XD Also, I try to discourage builds that are all based around using one gimmick to end encounters, since they tend to be non-fun.

(Diplomacy's actually pretty easy to fix - I simply rule that some requests are impossible. The King isn't going to give you his crown, no matter how high you roll. People aren't going to go against their sincerely held beliefs, though they might aid you in their own way. And so on. Basically, be sensible about it. XD Same philosophy guiding Arya's code.)

I'd just put in a cap that you can't intimidate beyond shaken. That will mean people don't take the path to panic or cowering and you're done. It does still allow some of the other feat chains like shatter defenses.

That's the kind of mentality I have about the game. That one PC, who was thankfully kicked from our group after he mind-controlled my barbarian because people wanted to kill the child-sacrificing villain and he needed a meat shield in case things got ugly between us and him, really made me see how some people want to rule that they can do things because the rules allow it because of some bloody unforseen way to break it.

Kind of like MtG in that regards, because screw bloody legacy cantrips, high tide, tron, and Yosei-lock decks. And Karn, that obnoxious joker!

Edit: Replying to Rednal. Didn't see you there drbuzzard! :/

Sorry about the double shifts, that sucks. I hope you get a replacement (yes, for quite egoistic reasons such as "She's MY game masta, b!#!#! MINE!" or, I mean, she could be...).

*sign that one Chejop* or *FCHRR, GROAR, FCHRRR! as Simon would say :-)

Seriously, a broken pinkie keeps you from filing papers and medical records? It's not super cereal unless you're a bleeding lightweight with no access to Tylenol!

I probably won't be online until this afternoon EST. Good night!

Tychoi does use Intimidate, but it's more of a flavor thing for him. Being a Halfling in Cheliax and refusing to be bullied.

I wholeheartedly agree on the pit fiend example. Only scenario I can think of where it would work is if the fiend is in the employ of a greater power and you have the power to cause it to fail it's assigned order. You won't panic it (which is kind of lame with Intimidate anyway) but you will put it of it's game and most likely make it willing to talk to you and negotiate a deal of some sort.

Tychoi still has a massive budget left (167 gp) but I have no idea what to spend it on beyond simply wasting it for fluff that will never come up in game, like buying a cat. He gets his main weapon for free due to Ranged Weapon Bond. Perhaps I can get some fancy variant ammunition.

I had one notion on how to balance intimidate- add CR to the DC. The way people can ramp up intimidate without too much effort makes it an auto-roll eventually (and skills don't fail on a '1'). This would keep the effect minimal at low level, and be appreciably more effective on flunkies.

I think the problem isn't so much balance as it is flavor.

A martial character with a big weapon who can actually back their threats makes sense. That's why I didn't really see the issue: My character is a near-seven foot tall gnoll paladin, which by all measures should prove intimidating to fiends.

I can totally see how a character specialized in empty threats like the bard you mentioned could be a problem.

Perhaps the solution could come from a roleplay front, in that the use of intimidate requires an actual, credible threat, or at least the appearance of one?

This does not entirely invalidate pure-intimidate builds like the bard, but it does require them to make an effort to keep it sensible: "See that guy over there? That's my friend. A cleric of Iomedae. He's smitten much worse than you, let me tell you that. Holy Water to the face and all. I don't want to tell you what to do, but I don't think you want to face him."

Intimidate builds are scary.

<rimshot>

Heh.

Anyway, here's the Spherecasting changes for Arya, copied right from the book.

Casting: At 4th level, the sphere paladin may combine spheres and talents to create magical effects. The sphere paladin is considered a Low-Caster and uses Charisma as his casting ability modifier, but only counts his paladin levels -3 as casting class levels. (Thus, a level 9 sphere paladin would have a caster level of 3.) (Note: All casters gain 2 bonus talents and may select a casting tradition the first time they gain the casting class feature.) This replaces the spells class feature.

Spell Pool: The sphere paladin gains a small reservoir of energy he can call on to create truly wondrous effects, called a spell pool. This pool contains a number of spell points equal to his class level -3 + his Charisma modifier (minimum: 1). This pool replenishes once per day after roughly 8 hours of rest.

Magic Talents: A sphere paladin gains one magic talent at 5th level and every 2 levels thereafter.

Life has been crazy and there are a bunch of divine warrior types, so I am going to back out. Best of luck all.

Has everyone who posted before the deadline completed their character? Selections are tomorrow! ^_^

This should be the completed submission for Trawets71.

Good luck, everyone! I look forward to (possibly) playing with each and every of you.

Rett the Unbreakable

Relinked for the GM's convenience.

For anyone who does not make a character before the deadline, and for anyone who is not chosen. I have a recruitment open here. Please feel free to join.

Has everyone who posted before the deadline completed their character? Selections are tomorrow! ^_^

Blink was totally posted before the deadline. Yaaay Jon for doing things. Also, this Alias also includes her profile.

Jup, Simon is and was ready for some serious stroking =D

Yes, Tychoi is ready.

Haven't added any special ammo yet but that would be the only thing that could change.

Edgerson should be ready to go.

This was a semi-long recruitment so I felt it might help if someone put up a summary of those still interested and their submissions (in order of submission):

@ALL: Let me know if I missed something or someone!

Well, I was designing another character last night and copied something out of Lazur's page and then accidentally pasted the entire new character over Lazur, so now he's gone. I don't know that I'll be able to get him back in time. Sorry.

Ooof. I'm sorry to hear that, Lazur.

Bit of advice to avoid this happening in the future:

Lazarus Form Recovery has saved my back end more than a few times. (It's also available for Chrome, if you use that.)

Nice list, He'sDeadJim. I figured I'd contribute and sort it in character categories:

Frontliners:
Septimus Falkland - Male Human Fighter 1 (Tactician)
(Drbuzzard) Vince 'Prettyboy' Krupt - Human (Chelaxian) brawler 1/fighter 1/gestalt 1
(Rednal) Arya - Female Angel-Blooded Aasimar (angelkin) Paladin (oath of vengeance) 1
(Cydrius) Rett the Unbreakable - Male Gnoll (Civilized) Chosen of Sheela (Variant Paladin)
(Arachnofiend) Fiora - Female Human Fighter (Brawler Archetype) 1

Range attackers
(Cuan) Tychoi d'Gallarai - Male Halfling Magus (Eldritch Archer, Hexcrafter) 1
(Jereru) Chejop - NG Aasimar Zen Archer 1
Simon Blue-Eye - Male Catfolk Ranger

Skirmishers/Skill based
Ashess - Male Tiefling Investigator 1
Kuzu Koryo - Female Kitsune Rogue (Kitsune Trickster)
(Faelyn) Corvus Aulamaxa - Male Azata Aasimar Bard 1
Shiri Dog-Catcher - Male Strix Kineticist (Elemental Ascetic) 1
Raven Silvertongue - Female (Chelaxian) Rogue 1 (Friend of Johan)
Johan Felder - Male Human Bard 1 (Friend of Raven)
(Oyzar) Jax Seran - Male Half-Orc Inquisitor (Sacred Huntmaster)

Arcane spellcasters:
Kiirok the Sneak - Male Kobold Sorcerer/1
Edgerson - Male Tiefling Wizard 1
(He'sDeadJim) Aleksara Darksoul - Female, 1/2 Elf (Drow Blooded) Sorcerer (Oni Bloodline)
(bane88) Davram Knox - Male Elf Blade Adept Arcanist

Divine spellcasters:
(Kittenmancer) Asha Ebele - Female Human Oracle 1
(JonGarrett) Blink Female Daemon Spawn Tiefling Seeker Oracle 1

Ooof. I'm sorry to hear that, Lazur.

Bit of advice to avoid this happening in the future:

Lazarus Form Recovery has saved my back end more than a few times. (It's also available for Chrome, if you use that.)

Thanks for that. I've installed it and hopefully that won't happen again. That's what I get for working on a character when I'm tired.

I use note pad to make my characters and then paste back into here as I've lost too many edits due to the time out on here. Now I've lost a whole character, oh well. Live and learn.

I always use google docs to write my characters rather than notepad. Then I always have a backup copy in case the primary one gets erased... It has also saved me from my phone running out of battery before.

Jax is pretty much done. As for future directions, I think I'll pick up Dazzling Display but won't take it further. That combined with making some of the devils immune to intimidate would hopefully limit it's impact on the game sufficiently. Jax is still going to be quite decent in melee, as a caster and at using skills.