Dvalin Fafnirson |
I agree that players have to conform to the GM's playstyle more than the other way round. That is WHY i want to find out how the decision process worked.
Are we expected to metagame? I can do that.
We split up during the day, with other people(including an seemingly always-drinking Guard Captain with his lackeys) still at the inn, for flavor reasons. Then the fast-forward happened to where we were alone, and had no chance to act/react/change our actions.
Do we always have to assume the worst? As in, play paranoid?
If I go and pee 20 feet away from where we camp, an assassin will jump at me from a bush, so I pee right next to the fire? I don't scout ahead, screw stealthing and going somewhere alone, I'm sticking with you guys.
Or, be paranoid during combat, be paranoid outside of combat.
Or maybe is this just an aspect of "fast-paced"? Situation changes with timelapse, but nobody gets to react because that would slow things down?
So we have to be extra careful what we are doing during downtime? I can scout ahead, so long as we are currently doing actions, but if I were to, say, check the perimeter of our campsite before we go to bed, it could suddenly be midnight and I'm lost in the wilderness-
Or, play normal during combat, be paranoid outside of combat.
Or was it just a one-time planned event? As in, punishment?
They want to use crossbows? I offered them healing. This will not do, they'd be useless in melee. I'll be nice and let them roll up new characters.
In other words, I can do everything I want, but if the GM offers something or hints at something, I have to take that hint or suffer?
Or, play normal all the time, be paranoid if GM hints at something.
I can work with all of these, but I need to know which it is.
For whats it worth, I also greatly enjoyed it so far. In regards to you, I was looking forward to playing out some friendly rivalry between Dvalin and Yarask(as in, teamwork, but in non-threatening situations also trying to out-do one another, friendly competition among clanbrothers...)
Ogden Greyhammer |
I have gone out of my way to accomodate DM play style Yarask. I even reworked my character 100% when the DM was not happy with the rules involved (all PF material, anyway). That has not been reciprocated at all, from the last 3-4 DM posts.
DM railroading to the level of killing players and fast forwarding it as done already because you feel it is best for the game is the kind of thing that should be stated up front. I don't play those kinds of games because I do not find it amusing to waste time making a character and posting for x months to get slapped in the face with instant kills on DM whim. Warn me up front though and I won't bother rolling up a character, altering a character to suit the DM better, and posting. Time well spent doing other things (I have kids). In essense, don't waste my time. characters are not a free resource. I have to dedicate time to making a character. If it is justifiable, it is time well spent. If the DM went off-the-wall changing the module (apparently) resulting in character death for no apparent reason than to get rid of 'gimped' characters, then that is not justifiable. I guess Boram and Dvalin should have roleplayed more properly by saying "Oh damn, my strength gimps me, I am going to fall on my sword now and die. But don't worry, my brother will be here tomorrow to take my place, and he doesn't suck as much as me."
Pffffft. I have also noticed that the DM asked for honest opinions, but when given, has not responded to them at all. Chainmail, if you think any of us are blowing hot air, or completely wrong, at least say so. I didn't ask for the discussion, you did.
GM Tribute |
I think the feedback is all well and good. I think your opinion is that you do not like how things have went so far. Boram and Dvalin echo your feelings. You do not want to make new characters, and feel that in some ways I am unfair and arbitrary.
I do not take any of that personally. So, I mentioned I recognize I am not going to change my style significantly; it has mostly worked. I think we just accept that we have a poor match here, and you do not like how things have went so far. Some others may want to continue as things have been going, but you do not. Let us not continue what will only get worse if we continue to game together, trust me on this one. Best to find out earlier than later.
You ask me my opinion. My opinion is that older styles of play are very much at odds with newer styles. Having played with some pretty good roleplayers, I try to stay true what I think they wanted roleplaying to be. For me, the best games were like rollercoaster rides and sometimes you just went along for the ride. Stopping to question the mechanics at every step spoils the flow. You do not like my style, but there are many other styles on these boards to choose from. PFS games are very much RAW and mechanics intensive, and PFS games have to take all pathfinder content--they may be more to your liking.
So if Aaagggh, Tegnar, Yarask and Dolgrym want to continue, we will do so.
Ogden Greyhammer |
I think you totally didn't answer any questions or listen to what was said.
I think you confuse who you are talking to also. I never questioned the mechanics at any step. The only thing I have done was change my character completely to accommodate you, and play my character. Don't confuse me with Boram or Dvalin, who have questioned your adjudication. You can review and not find a time where I questioned what you did.
The only thing that has irked me personally is 1) your insinuation that some were trying to game the system, which I don't see, as well as a vocal minority running things, which I also don't see, and 2) your willingness to not only put 3 characters into a veritable death sentence but to then fast forward it. That's not what was in the module, that's what you chose to do, and so much as admitted it was due to some gimped characters.
And you still refuse to acknowledge that. Don't confuse bad DMing with older styles of play. Review what you said, it was clear as day that you killed off two characters/players that you didn't want around.
I also never said I did not want to play. But I do want to know your motivation for what you did. There's a difference between 'older styles' of play, and just writing off some characters. And obviously you have chosen not to explain yourself, because my time is meaningless to you, and you would rather that I just quit the adventure? You may not find anywhere where I questioned your judgement (until you specifically asked for it), but there were several places where I said I have enjoyed the game so far, and this is the only exception. But without some reason why you'd do that obvious hand-waived execution, why would I think that you wouldn't do it in the future, for whatever reason? Invest months into the game and then get killed off? (And let me restate, since nothing I say has been read, that I have no problem with my characters dying. This is not about character death but the way you did it)
So what is 'your style' that you say I don't like? Is it your style to write off characters that are underperformers? or to kill off in game people you don't like out of game? Did you have some complaint with the way Ogden has been run? Are you specifically asking/telling me to leave the game?
I feel like repeating everything I said because you obviously didn't read it.
for example: "You do not want to make new characters, and feel that in some ways I am unfair and arbitrary." whereas I don't know how else to say: "characters are not a free resource. I have to dedicate time to making a character. If it is justifiable, it is time well spent."
And seriously, you look back and tell me that: fast forwarding to the three of us alone in the inn with the door unlocked before they attack with two mysteriously in cots who don't need to be, and then they find us, enter the only door, run across the inn and attack me, kill me (because how hard is it to do to a 1st level pc with 3 attackers doing 2d6 each) with no action, then say 'lets just fast forward past the other two dying.' is NOT arbitrary? I've played and DM'd a long time in a lot of systems. As experienced as you seem to be or think you are, please don't give me that nonsense. And the reason why you did???
And enough with the patronizing 'PFS may be more to your liking' crap, thank you very much. I prefer more referee, "old school" games. What you did has nothing to do with how much of an 'older style' you have, no matter how you spin it.
Boram the Burglar |
Boram and Dvalin echo your feelings. You do not want to make new characters, and feel that in some ways I am unfair and arbitrary.
This is curious, I have intentionally said nothing; waiting, listening and thinking. But you assume Ogden echo's my feelings, truly curious.
If me asking questions in game has offended you, that was not my intention. I played AD&D in college in the 80's, so I know "Old School." I've been playing pathfinder less than a year on pbp. I am not a rules lawyer and I am just trying to learn GM's styles, the best way I though was to ask questions. The best example I can give was when I thought Boram had explored the northern room with the shadow rats. I enquired about that, you explained why and how you came to the conclusion you did. I changed how I was posting so I was not trying to do several things at once and waited till you described more, then I continued. That's how communication works, that's how people learn to work and play together. Most GM's encourage questions that help build a stronger team or game. I did not realize the questions were that offensive.
You accused me of gaming the system, I was trying to play a CG burglar who likes to help, as long as he gets paid. If that was wrong or "gaming the system" you could have warned me, I'm not so sophisticated a player that I am going to meta game, min max or cheat. I just want to play a character I enjoy, that responded to the situations at hand and be able to ask questions to learn more and make good in-game decisions.
So two more question for you, Are you saying that Ogden is out of the game and that Dvalin and myself are not permitted to roll new characters, therefore we are also out of the game? Second, if that is the case, what happened to taking the weekend and cooling off to start fresh?
Ogden Greyhammer |
Boram you did not know that we are a three headed ettin? Because I also remember Dvalin asking several times about specifics for rerolling a new character that were never answered, and questions on clarification on what the DM wanted in game so he wouldn't get autokilled next time.
But he did not answer Dvalin, he simply said he would be willing to continue with the others. I guess we know his feelings toward Dvalin. lol.
Boram the Burglar |
It troubles me, I'm sorry if you have problems with me. OR if you feel I have Major problems, because I don't. If I had questions I asked, right up front, so we could learn each others style. If something happened in game, I responded in game to the event, not labeling or accusing.
You say you have problems with three players. I assume I am one of them, what did I do? In character or out, that caused you to have problems with me? If I didn't understand something, I asked. When you chose to answer I expressed understanding and went on.
I'm sorry you weren't having fun, I was enjoying the game, I liked the fact that your NPC's were three dimensional I liked the fact that you thought about them and gave them back stories. If a character did or did not do something in game Boram responded to them in game. For example: three times Boram spoke to Othdan (rolling diplomacy, and a higher charisma than the dwarves) all three times Othdan ignored him, so Boram considered Othdan stuck up. It was in game character to character, how else would you have wanted that handled.
I was disappointed you placed Ogden away from Dvalin and Boram then used a surprise round to open a door, enter a room and attack with three npc's killing him. Throughout the game you seemed to use the rules properly and appropriately then in this one instance you waved away the rules entirely.
You asked for detailed characters, Great! You asked for players invested enough to post everyday, awesome! You asked for people mature enough to have other players cover for them when they would not be able to post, commendable! I did all those things, asking questions when I did not understand or desiring clarification.
When I was a kid I would min-max and meta game (at least as much as you could in AD&D) When I started to play a year ago it became about the characters for me. You wanted a dwarf-related old-school character that could fill one of the four primary roles. I made you one. When you were having trouble getting people to apply I asked other people I played with to check it out so you would get your four base characters, one of them posted a cleric. Now you have thrown him off your game because you weren't having fun.
I feel sorry for you. If you weren't enjoying yourself you should have said something, clarified something, explained something, in game or private message. Instead you bulled others then picked up your toys and went home; inviting the kids who didn't ruin your fun and hurt your feelings to go with you.
I asked:
So two more question for you, Are you saying that Ogden is out of the game and that Dvalin and myself are not permitted to roll new characters, therefore we are also out of the game? Second, if that is the case, what happened to taking the weekend and cooling off to start fresh?
you responded:
Well, I was going to take the weekend, but was told I was not responding at all.
it still sounds more like an excuse than an answer.
If I had one complaint it was that you don't answer questions. Good luck Aaagggh, Tegnar, Yarask and Dolgrym, AP's are too hard to get in not to accept GM Tributes tirade and invitation and move on. Ogden sorry I ever mentioned this fiasco to you. Dvalin, I hope I see you around. Gm Tribute please remove my character from the players list and do your self a favor and grow up a little.
Dvalin Fafnirson |
I think the feedback is all well and good. I think your opinion is that you do not like how things have went so far. Boram and Dvalin echo your feelings. You do not want to make new characters, and feel that in some ways I am unfair and arbitrary.
The problem I have is that Roleplaying always involves both sides. It's not just the GM, and not just the players.
What I did not like is that you worked on assumptions(such as that someone was trying to "game" a system, or that level 1 characters are "free resources" in our eyes.) without caring if they were true.
What I did not like was that you punish role-playing, such as when we decided to stay at the inn, during a busy day, then fast-forward to a time we are all alone...was there any indication that the inn would be closed down early that day and Omast has to continue drinking at home?
What I did not like is that you change and shift rules to accomodate the story you want to tell. We KNEW the shadow rats are in the room(have been in combat with them in that same minute), but can't take ready actions, and THEY get a second surprise round on us. The assassins KNEW we are in the room, get to enter freely(at least equivalent to a ready action on opening the door), and THEY get a surprise round on us. So when we enter, enemy gets surprise. If enemy enters, enemy gets surprise. Also, long-term care can be done for 6 people at the same time and is still just a light activity. It only doubles natural healing and indeed is just checking on bandages, applying salves and herbs. Ruling that it requires the receiving people to be shut down/resting is definitely a house rule. We rested in the afternoon for roleplay reasons. As I stated, no mechanical advantage to that. Only Ogden needed to be with us and not sleep for those 8 hours, so unless we went shopping with the rest, he'd need to be with us early enough to have 16 hours total if he also wants to rest.
But I could have worked with all of the above. No problem with that. The one thing that I was unsure if I can work with it was what your decision process for killing us instead of giving us time to heal was. Why you decided for the first option instead of the second. I asked that because THAT was important to me. You never answered. Did you want us to leave? Punish us? Did an alternative simply not occur to you? That thought process, im my eyes, is a revealing factor of your style.
And no, old school GM'ing in my eyes has nothing to do with killing characters because one feels like it. Thats not fair to the players. Not pulling punches, making difficult challenges, accepting that now and then someone will die, thats old school. Going out of your way to make sure someone dies? Thats pointless. Because if the players are not retarded, they know their character just got offed by divine wrath without a chance to make it out. Now how involved will that player be with his next character, knowing lightning could strike him dead any time he sticks his head out of the railroad?
As I mentioned, I figured we should use the weekend to settle the differences, so that on monday, we are all clear on how things work and where they go. I even asked if the creation rules were identical, I gave you a vote of confidence, explained, with reasons, what things irked me.
But the same thing happened as before.
In game, you put us into a position we could not possibly win.
We try and find a solution, 2 days later you decide we are dead.
We try and get things clarified, 2 days later you decide we are out of the game.
No offense meant, but to me, that seems like a setup all along. No matter what you were unhappy about(we did our fair share of asking or questioning, to learn how your houserules work), I believe you choose to kill us on the chance that we'd quit. When we did not, you kicked us out.
Boram did not write anything here, I repeatedly asked for an explanation/clarification at the same time saying that I can work with almost any style, as long as I know what triggers the killswitch.
Ogden was vocal about things, but I doubt you would have needed him to be so clear about it in order to come to the conclusion we are incompatible and you'd best continue without us.
Because that was the plan all along, right? At least now you admit that you have problems with us.
Should have manned up and told us before, rather than hope we roll over and quit by ourselves. Heck, I even suspected you had a problem with me before, and OFFERED to quit. You say no, only to autokill me 2 days later, tell me you DO have a problem with me and kick me out for wanting to know why you choose to autokill?
This whole farce was pointless. Which also explains why you did not take the time to properly respond. You knew there was no point in doing so since you already went in with a decision made, right?
Well, best of luck to the others who remain. You need it.
Ogden Greyhammer |
Actually don't answer that. I know the answers already. Boram took issue with your assumptions, and you did not want to rectify your poor choices during those fast forward phases. Same with Dvalin. You probably also thought they were cheating, because you had your head too far up your ass to see the roleplay. You killed them in retribution, and myself because I was there. You were willing to let me live because I had done nothing. And when I then took offense at this behavior (a trademark of a poor DM), rather than explain it you decided that I should go too. Because you had no good explanation other that what was already stated and obvious. Rather than lie or fess up to it, you blamed it on vague major problems you or those players had.
I know bullshit when I smell it, you aren't as slick as you think you are. But mission accomplished, all three players are now out of the game that questioned your "style" of being a total douche.
I enjoyed playing with you guys (Boram, Aagh, Dvalin, Tengar, Yarask, and Dolgrym). Good group of roleplayers. Unfortunately a good group of players does not make up for a piss poor DM who is too proud to admit when he screws up.
Life is definitely too short to waste more of it on you, chainmail. I hope you enjoy yourself as much as you seem to. I also hope your pride doesn't kill another of your games. But hey, players are a free reource, right?
MordredofFairy |
There was the time in my homebrew a trap hurt some PCs outside a gnoll cave, and the gnolls came out and attacked the PCs while they were still hurt with acid burning them. I was told that the CR of the trap and the CR of the gnolls was OK, but putting them one right after the other was not allowed. I guess the gnolls were supposed to look out the peephole and wait for the party to recover.
And just for the record, since I'm out anyway and can be honest without fearing divine lightning: the players were right. In such a case, it's a combined encounter. In that case, individual CR is not relevant beyond calculating the Encounter Level.
So obviously the Gnolls should take advantage of the trap, but the total Encounter Level should not be higher than APL+3 or APL+4, meaning probably a weaker trap, or less gnolls.Same reason you are not supposed to make 10 CR5 trolls appear in front of a Level 3 Party, then make them all attack together since their individual CR is fine for the party.
That part really makes me wonder. If you set the whole thing up to get rid of us, I'm glad its over and I'm gone. But if you just weren't aware that 3 enemies (dealing 2d6 damage each), getting a surprise round in close quarters against prone unarmed characters may be a bit onesided, I feel sorry for the others if you plan to run any more encounters by your own rules instead of by the book.
MordredofFairy |
Actually, I think he may be right, Ogden.
He got rid of people questioning the validity of reading a story to someone and calling it a game, and we dodged a bullet by not investing more time before learning the way he runs his stuff(=purely antagonistic, rather than as a storyteller).
Win-Win.
Tegnar Giantslayer |
A few questions:
Did we get the items from the captured assassin and the dropped crossbows?
What was our take from trading and how much is a wand of CLW, 750?
What is the policy regarding our fallen companion's equipment? Is it ours to use or sell or do we burn them in it? I know Ogden just took the breastplate which we could use but I'm fine either way.
Lastly, with 1 night's rest, I believe I regain 1 pt of strength, so I'm still down 2. Aggghhh is still diseased and now down 1 pt of dex. I can probably manage but we can't afford to have Aggghhh get worse. Do we have enough gold to get cured and get another wand?
Dolgrym Giantfoe |
Level 2
HP 5+2(con)+1(FCB)=8
Bab +1
Fort +1
Ref +1
Skills
+1 Acrobatics, Kn: Nature, Perception, Stealth, Survival
Added Climb, Kn: Dungeoneering
Two Weapon Fighting Style: Two Weapon Fighting Feat
Tegnar Giantslayer |
GM - would it be possible to have a Google Doc spreadsheet linked to the top of the page so we can track treasure?
From a post last week and added from assassins but not dead players:
FINAL TREASURE LIST
MW longsword (150)
CLW wand 16 charges
55 platinum
2077 gp
155 sp
55 cp
Campfire bead
2 Doses Soverign glue (2400 total)
breastplate
4 light crossbows
10 bolts
a smokestick
potion of CLW
a small gem
a set of lockpicks
55 Plat/4= 13.75 each
2077 gp/4= 519.25 each
155 sp/4= 38.75 each
55 cp/4= 13.75 each
I'll take the breastplate and a crossbow. I'll also buy 10 bolts and 2 potions of CLW.
Aggghhh - you should have enough to pay for healing.
Tegnar Giantslayer |
Assuming we are splitting the coins equally, we each have about 660 gp. I know I will be willing to loan money to others to get an item as well as split the cost of items that benefit the whole party like healing wands.
Dolgrym Giantfoe |
We have no diplomats in the group. If any of you want to try go for it. Dolgrym has no choice but action at this point. I don't want to start something without at least a second from the group.
Tegnar Giantslayer |
Lol, yeah, I just saw that. The highest chr in the group is 8 so at best with 3 aides we'd be at +5 but I don't think starting a fight with a mob is in our best interest. I can try if everyone aides me. If it doesn't work, we can try to use non-lethal on the leader but the delay could cost Brinya her life. With no "face" for the group, I think this situation is a no-win for us without a great roll. Which way do we want to go?
Yarask of House Dace |
lol Aggghhh.
I tried intimidate (+1 after the bonuses) and the result was decent if not impressive. If it's not enough to deter them and they attack we fight, but I hope to just incapacitate them not to kill them outright
Tegnar Giantslayer |
That was some brutal rolling for the staggered orcs. Both Yarask and I are down to 5 hp. I don't think the first aid station we passed will be able to heal us. I think we should use the potions we have and try to get to the last beacon to light it. Looks like we are going to be spending a lot of gold on potions at this rate. As far as the orcs go, I don't think we are in a position to take prisoners.
Yarask of House Dace |
I hope you don't mind a little "self promotion"... :P
We are trying to start a playtest game about the Vigilante class, we are 4 people 3 players and the GM and we still need a zealot vigilante. If anyone's interested here's the link to the discussion thread. It's one spot, so the first person who comes up with a character concept will probably get to play. Hope to see you there too!
Tegnar Giantslayer |
@Agh - tried to copy it but it ended up a blank square.
FYI - I will be leaving for an extended weekend trip with the family on Thrusday, returning on Sunday. I may not be able to post as I haven't bought a new phone yet that can access the site. Feel free to bot me to move things along.
Yarask of House Dace |
Can't seem to get an icon put up. A little assistance please?
Done! :P
As for the mission... is the orc right between the flames???
Yarask of House Dace |
Would anyone else call dibs on the scabbard of honing? It would be very good for Yarask's greatsword.
Edit: I was thinking scabbard of keen edges... It's not the same by any means but if no one else wants it I'll take it anyway, +1 dmg for a single attack is still better than nothing...
GM Tribute |
Once again, in the interest of moving things along:
1) I assume you loot the ranger
2) I assume you cast detect magic
3) When you notice a chance to walk into an ambush unhealed, I have you use the cloud for cover and cross to the safe side to heal and reassess.
Rather than wait a day for all these things, and give you a chance to 'mess up', I'd rather move things along. Hope it works for you.
Dolgrym Giantfoe |
I used the wand as I'm the only one who can use it. It's toast now. I felt it better to leave the potions in case I go down. I'll give one of the potions to anyone who doesn't have one or keep both if everyone does.