High Level Gestalted Magusness!

I have been tasked with making a high level character for an upcoming campaign. When I asked the will-be-GM what level, he responded "20ish. Oh, and gestalt."

My brain nearly exploded.

I have a general idea, but need some help in narrowing my focus a bit - maybe picking the feats and getting that laid out.

I had a load of ideas for what to make. I thought about a Barbarian-Alchemist/Barbarian-Master Chymist combo who focuses on becoming large and smashing things with his fists. I thought about a barbarian-cavalier who takes rage powers that let his mount rage when he does. I thought about a ranger/ninja who focuses on traps with his ranger half. I really went all over the map.

But the idea I think I've settled on is similar to one of my favorite characters that I've played previously. For some reason, I really, really like casters - and, inexplicably, casters with swords are even more fun.

So I'm thinking of gestalting magus with... something. Here's my basic idea for 18 levels (if my GM wants him higher, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it)...

Levels 1 - 5: magus/wizard (transmuter)
Levels 6 - 15: magus/eldritch knight (ek spell progression goes to wiz)
Levels 16 - 18: magus/??? (I'm leaning toward wizard, just to keep that spell progression going, but I'm not sold on it necessarily)

I'd take the broad study magus arcana and the still spell metamagic feat. In combat spells would come from my magus spells or stilled wizard spells. With still spell, I'd like him to sport some full plate and my GM has said he'll house rule me being able to use a 2-handed weapon as a bonded item if I want it.

He'd cast as a 18th level magus, a 17th level wizard, and would qualify as a fighter of indeterminate level thanks to strange overlapping between EK and Magus.

What else should I do with this?

Ooh! I have no idea how it would level out, but I read your post and immediately went this way:

Magus/Sorc (Dragon) (maybe X-blood with Abyssal)
Magus/Dragon Disciple

Be a Str based magus, then rock the high STR, natural armor, whatnot.

Fighter is a great gestalt combo for a wizard due to a crap tons of feats, good fort save, and full BAB.

Monk is good for similar reasons, but higher AC, etc. You'd be a bouncy bouncy wizard.

Personally I've been gagging to play a Summoner (Master summoner or Synthesist)\Conjurer (teleport specialist).

A wizard/Cleric is highly appealing nto me too, especially for a Kingmaker type game. I'm a casting whore though, so that makes perfect sense.

I like your build, but it wouldn't quite be my style.

If you're going to go with wizard, I recommend taking the Kensai archetype. It'll help keep your AC up, without that pesky Arcane Spell Failure %.

One of my favorite High-level Magus Gestalts I made was a Kensai/Bladebound Magus 20/Weapon Master Fighter 20, specializing in Scimitar with Dervish Dance. I think his damage on a regular hit was somewhere around 1d6+30ish, with a crit bringing that up to 4d6+120. Unless of course, you spend 2 arcane pool points using Perfect strike from Kensai, and use your immediate/swift action for the Weapon Master's Deadly critical, then a crit deals 6d6+180, and you still have your other attacks, one of which can be a Spellstrike.

Staff magus/ Monk would PWN face. Just saying.

Staff magus/ Monk would PWN face. Just saying.

^Seconded.

I see what you're wanting eldritch knight for (ignoring the fact that by rules you can't take it) but honestly, its not worth it. Its not going to improve your BAB, both sides of the gestalt end up with +15.

There's a few paizo full casting prestige classes around, mainly in inner sea magic I believe, I'd look over those and see if any of them appealed to me.

Alternatively, consider a magus with full base attack bonus. If you pick ranger you can use two handed ranger (even with a 1 handed weapon) to get power attack without meeting the pre-requesites and go with a full on dex based build with dervish dance, full BAB, magus and ranger casting.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Staff magus/ Monk would PWN face. Just saying.

^Seconded.

Staff Magus\Ninja with at least 2 levels of monk worked in there somewhere would Pwn more face.

If you're going to go with wizard, I recommend taking the Kensai archetype. It'll help keep your AC up, without that pesky Arcane Spell Failure %.

One of the favorite High-level Magus Gestalts I made was a Kensai/Bladebound Magus 20/Weapon Master Fighter 20, specializing in Scimitar with Dervish Dance. I think his damage on a regular hit was somewhere around 1d6+30ish, with a crit bringing that up to 4d6+120. Unless of course, you spend 2 arcane pool points using Perfect strike from Kensai, and use your immediate/swift action for the Weapon Master's Deadly critical, then a crit deals 6d6+180, and you still have your other attacks, one of which can be a Spellstrike.

I was just pondering Kensai / Diviner. Full casting progression on both, ridiculous initiative, stat synergy, and no particularly "wasted" abilities.

Make him a Half-Orc Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc/Draconic Bloodlines)/whatever you want Magus with favored class bonus going into bonus fire damage. Make sure you pick up a good Touch Attack spell (Shocking Grasp will work nicely), and take the talent that allows you to reduce the Metamagic cost on it by +1.

This means you can make Intensified, Fire elemental Shocking Grasps for a level 2 spell slot which each deal 10d6+30 fire damage (or +20 if you decide to pick Acid or Cold as your Dragon element and forgo the Half-orc bonus), which is a pretty decent chunk for a single spell, but combine it with your high crit, spell-storing scimitar, and you're looking at a potential opening single attack of 1d6+weapon damage modifiers+10d6+30+ and additional 10d6+30 that can be doubled on a crit.

For more fun, higher level spell slots can utilize things like empower (extra 2d6+4 or 5d6+10, depending on who you ask), which is, of course, also multiplied on a crit. Oh, and you can get the Orc bloodline huge strength bonus, the Draconic Bloodline natural armor, Transformation when you need it (because Full BAB is NICE, even if you lose spell combat), or the ability to use Dragon Form in conjunction with your cool Transformation ability to get a pretty rocking static damage boost.

And, hey, you don't really need to use your Magus spell-slots for anything else, because you have sorcerer to cover all your other bases.

I was just pondering Kensai / Diviner. Full casting progression on both, ridiculous initiative, stat synergy, and no particularly "wasted" abilities.

That would be pretty crazy. The build I had, although there were some house rules involved, already had an insanely high Initiative. There was almost no way he wasn't going first, and if there was a surprise round, someone was going to get mauled during it.

Diviner/Barbarian... Someone is going to die in the surprise round.

I'm fairly certain that's universal for any Diviner, let alone Diviner/Anything

How about Zen archer/Cleric. Cast Miracle and then watch things blow up from your bow.

Diviner/Barbarian... Someone is going to die in the surprise round.

I might actually consider Barbarian/Divine Strategist Cleric over the Diviner in this case. Allows you to utilize a less dump-worthy stat, still gets you the initiative bonus, as well as extending a (small) bonus on initiative to your allies.

Holy cow - you guys are full of ridiculous(ly awesome!) ideas!
I have much to consider...

Dex builds for the magus are a little *too* similar to my previous non-gestalt Eldritch Knight. He's figher 1/wizard (diviner) 6/Eldritch Knight 10, so I'd like to avoid high dex focus and divination.

I very much like the ideas revolving around brute strength orcy-dragony muscley builds though. And the monk suggestions gave me serious pause as well - the staff magus/monk... there's just something special there.

Keep the ideas coming though - these are awesome.

Magus/Cleric would be good for in-combat healing. Full attack plus a Heal Spell? Yes please.

Magus/Synthesist might have potential, I'm not entirely sure. I haven't done any math on it or even thought of it prior to now.

Part of the struggle with gestalting things, especially with dual-foci classes like the the magus, is how quickly the character gets incredibly MAD.

Part of why I was leaning toward the inital magus/wizard/ek combo I posted earlier was that he really only needs Str and Int.

I had considered Paladin/Sorc because Cha synergizes so well between those two - but tossing magus in puts me at needing 3 substantially high stats.

Not knowing what ability generation method we'll be using makes me hesitant to get my hopes set on a ROCKIN build lest I find myself stuck with an array of stats that can't support it very well.

But let's go with somewhat wishful thinking nonetheless and assume a 20 point buy for stats. How does that change things?

staff magus /cleric of nethys would be really fluffy and might actually work.

Hexcrafter diviner would be really powerful as well as getting hexes plus really high initative and full attacks is powerful.

Part of the struggle with gestalting things, especially with dual-foci classes like the the magus, is how quickly the character gets incredibly MAD.

Part of why I was leaning toward the inital magus/wizard/ek combo I posted earlier was that he really only needs Str and Int.

I had considered Paladin/Sorc because Cha synergizes so well between those two - but tossing magus in puts me at needing 3 substantially high stats.

Not knowing what ability generation method we'll be using makes me hesitant to get my hopes set on a ROCKIN build lest I find myself stuck with an array of stats that can't support it very well.

But let's go with somewhat wishful thinking nonetheless and assume a 20 point buy for stats. How does that change things?

I would like to direct your attention to the Sage Wild blooded archetype for the sorceror. In the event you want to combine sorceror with magus, The Sage Wild Blood archetype will prevent you from getting more mad then the magus already is. (Note Empyreal would work similarly if you end up going like Sorc/Inquisitor or something).

Holy cow - you guys are full of ridiculous(ly awesome!) ideas!

I have much to consider...

Dex builds for the magus are a little *too* similar to my previous non-gestalt Eldritch Knight. He's figher 1/wizard (diviner) 6/Eldritch Knight 10, so I'd like to avoid high dex focus and divination.

I very much like the ideas revolving around brute strength orcy-dragony muscley builds though. And the monk suggestions gave me serious pause as well - the staff magus/monk... there's just something special there.

Keep the ideas coming though - these are awesome.

Magus/Witch would be rather strong, much like Magus/Wizard. Also, Magus/Guide Ranger.

I'll be honest, though. I'd probably play something less Magus-y and more...oh...Samurai + Paladin...y. Why yes, my Ronin "order" Samurai will gladly Challenge, Smite, Chosen Destiny with a Greater Named Bullet from my Longbow. Just let me True Strike and Litany of Righteousness first.

The only part of that not provided by the character himself is the GNB, and the single arrow would be enough to 1-shot Treerazer. 2*(3*(1d8+20+20+40)), not counting enhancement or composite. That's 6d8+480. Enhancement + composite will likely land it closer to 6d8+540. It could go higher...but why?

Squish.

I took a gander at the staff magus and some monk archetypes on the PRD and a monk (weapon adept)/magus (staff magus) sounds pretty rockin'.

I'll have to take a look at the Sage Wild-blooded and Empyreal bloodlines when I get home in a little while.

And Samurai+Paladin... Squish indeed!

I hadn't even looked at the new archetypes/bloodlines for the sorceror since the APG. After looking through them in the shiny new PRD, I think the following might be a viable way to go.

sorceror(crossblooded draconic/sage)-magus 8/dragon disciple-magus 10

I think I'd like to still lean toward full plate and spend more time in melee than out of it.

Thoughts? Anyone have any suggestions for what feats to take? Is Combat Casting really needed at this high a level?

Do make sure to check with your GM whether you're allowed to gestalt with hybrid classes such as EK or DD. By default gestalt rules, you can't gestalt a hybrid prestige class.

Dragon Disciple isn't a hybrid class.

Diviner/Barbarian... Someone is going to die in the surprise round.

this is like the 3rd post of yours that has became a facebook status of mine

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Diviner/Barbarian... Someone is going to die in the surprise round.

this is like the 3rd post of yours that has became a facebook status of mine

I'm a role model. It's very stressful.

Hybrid PrC or not, my DM has happily and enthusiastically accepted the build you all helped me work my way down to.

magus-sorcerer(crossblooded sage/dragon)/magus-dragon disciple

He said we'll start out at 17th level and that I can cast with a 2-handed weapon if I'd like, but it will impose a -4 penalty on any concentration checks if I choose to do so. (I'm leaning toward a greataxe, but I've had so many ideas so far - that's just the one that keeps floating to the top of the pile the most frequently)

Any suggestions on feats? I've toyed with the idea of taking the Eldritch Heritage chain - just for absurdity's sake at first, but I honestly wouldn't mind having the Destined bloodline powers on top of everything else.

Hybrid PrC or not, my DM has happily and enthusiastically accepted the build you all helped me work my way down to.

magus-sorcerer(crossblooded sage/dragon)/magus-dragon disciple

He said we'll start out at 17th level and that I can cast with a 2-handed weapon if I'd like, but it will impose a -4 penalty on any concentration checks if I choose to do so. (I'm leaning toward a greataxe, but I've had so many ideas so far - that's just the one that keeps floating to the top of the pile the most frequently)

Any suggestions on feats? I've toyed with the idea of taking the Eldritch Heritage chain - just for absurdity's sake at first, but I honestly wouldn't mind having the Destined bloodline powers on top of everything else.

Wait wait wait...you're doing the Gish and you don't want to EH into the Abyssal line? I dare say that if you don't go for the +6 STR, you must hate kittens or something.

Lunge is one of my line-up feats for this sort of thing. With Dragon Disciple and Draconic Bloodline, you get wings and a solid speed (i.e. not wasting your spell slots on Fly/OLF). Rather than a Greataxe, if you take, say, the Glaive-Guisarme or another reach weapon, you can do some silliness with your 15 feet of reach (more if you Enlarge first, but that's slightly less likely with your setup than my old one). When I was running Barb/Sorc/DD, I had Fly-by Attack and Hover in my line-up, as well.

Intensify Spell is, by far, the best metamagic for a Magus. I heavily recommend taking it. For example, you can use it with Shocking Grasp to make it...um...good. If you take Magical Lineage as a trait, you can make it cost nothing for level adjust on one spell of your choice, which is nice.

Magus/Inquisitor for the character that does everything...

Magus/Inquisitor for the character that does everything...

Agreed, just make sure it's the war domain. Then you have plenty of feats to switch around.

I still vote for staff Magus/Monk PWN MADNESS

I'm a fan of the magus/alchemist for augmented melee power. The added benefit is tgat armor doesn't hurt alchemy, so you can wear whatever your magus level allows.

Kryzbyn wrote:

Magus/Inquisitor for the character that does everything...

Agreed, just make sure it's the war domain. Then you have plenty of feats to switch around.

Rage inquisition, it grants rage as a barbarian -3 levels. Then make him a half-orc.

Gravefiller613 wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Magus/Inquisitor for the character that does everything...

Agreed, just make sure it's the war domain. Then you have plenty of feats to switch around.

Rage inquisition, it grants rage as a barbarian -3 levels. Then make him a half-orc.

Then take the teamwork feat from Orcs of Golarion that increases his rage bonuses.
For when you need to be more fighty than casty.

I'm still of the opinion that a persistent Grand Mutagen is a better buff with fewer overall drawbacks to your spellcasting-in-melee with Magus goodness. Plus, you can throw bombs (which half-orc can make particularly deadly)!

Add in all the judgements a level 20 inquis can bring to bear...
I dunno.
And dont forget stalwart: Evasion for fort saves.
Taking the arcana that lets you cast spells form another class in spell combat means dropping heals on yourself when you full attack.

Regardless, if you're gonna go with ninja or rogue, I'd also suggest making sure you have dimension door and the dimensional agility feats.
The final one allows you to dimension door between attacks, and you flank for yourself.

All this reminds me. Has anyone looked at the possibility of using a Myrmidarch Magus/Alchemist infusing your bombs with spells? Touch attacks aren't specifically outlawed in the Ranged Spellstrike ability of the Myrmidarch, and Splash weapons are a ranged weapon.

Armored magi will multiclass badly with casters and monks. If you're set on that go with fighter.

Staff magi will multiclass poorly with most martial characters, though ranger deserves note for being full BAB and getting TWF feats without prereqs which will get you the ability to use both ends of your staff when not using spell combat.

Not all gishes have to be maguses though. Sorceror (empyrial)/monk is potentially pretty scary. Bard (arcane duelist) is almost as mean as magus if you're going to be stacking it with a martial class. Less blasty, but better buffs and utility casting. Bard-Paladin looks particularly juicy. Starting at level 18 the later access to medium and heavy armor doesn't matter.

Wizard/Cleric.

"POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Wizard/Cleric.

"POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Permanency + animate objects= relatively cheap construct army. Plus a fainting couch to do all your walking for you.

I'll admit that I can't help but think a Magus/Synthesist would approach terrifying capacity very quickly.

But, that does not result in ever being able to use spells above 6th level.

So, instead I propose the following:

Magus (Bladebound Kensai) 20/ Transmutation (Enhancement) Scrollmaster 20

The reason for what is probably one of the less complex builds suggested so far?

Transmutationist 20 allows you a free +5 to any two physical attributes each day, as a basic thing. Choosing the Enhancement sub school also gives you two other nice self buffs; the first is a +10 Enhancement bonus to any ability score as a swift action (lasts a round), and the second is the choice of a +4 bonus to any ability score, or a +5 natural armor bonus which SPECIFICALLY stacks with other natural armor bonuses. Either of the second two options lasts for a full 10 rounds.

Choosing to be a scroll master lets you always use your casting stat (intelligence), feats, and caster level with scrolls, regardless of what they were prepared with. This will allow you to keep a bit more cash on hand to use for other options.

Bladebound Magus 20 gets you a free intelligent weapon of your choice. It's base is at a +5, but it also has a small host of minor abilities that it can use for you. Kensai 20 makes it so that it's critical modifier is one higher, it always confirms critical hits, and you can spend an arcane point to automatically maximize damage when you do hit. An arcane point which killing your enemy will immediately give you back. Because of the ability to alter your stats more or less at will, and this ability, I'd recommend you build a strength based Magus, and go with a falcata as your bonded weapon. Swift action at the start of combat makes it into a weapon that crits on a 15+, doesn't have a confirmation roll, and does x4 damage.

At this point, I'll make some other recommendations:
-You'll definitely want to pick up Broad Study as one of your magus Arcana. Then you can spell strike with any wizard spell.

-I would consider grabbing the Bane Blade Arcana from Ultimate Combat. It lets you get a variable bane effect when you're enhancing your weapon as a swift action... and actually allows you to violate the standard rules of not exceeding a +10 total enhancement bonus.

-You may actually get some mileage out of the Close Range Arcana. Wizard has a fair number of decent spells that this would allow you to use Spellstrike with.

-Consider dropping a few feats in picking up Eldritch Heritage for the Orc Bloodline powers. At the cost of 3 feats (2 if you're a half elf), you'll have a +6 inherent bonus applied to strength (permanently), which your wizard school powers can be added onto (since they're enhancement bonuses). Tack on a fourth (or third) feat, and you'll be able to throw another +6 onto strength when you want to... while simultaneously increasing your size to large. The size increase is a nice thing for you, by the way: You add your intelligence modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you get in a round, and that just gave you a 10 foot threatened area. Time things right with a held action, and you could be dishing out a world of hurt on your unsuspecting enemies.

That's a pretty good way to get out of buying a bunch of the standard Equipment. You don't need a weapon, you don't need as expensive belts/headbands, you don't need a Strength Manual. That's pretty impressive.

good stuff

Somewhere an NPC in a red shirt just pee'd himself.

many many good things

I love the idea of the character not being as dependent on a lot of the typically standard ability boosting items.

You make an excellent case of awesomeness here. I have much to consider...

Somewhere an NPC in a red shirt just pee'd himself.

Nope. That was me, actually.

Wizard/Cleric.

"POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Since he's starting at level 18 he may as well make it Sorceror/Oracle and be SAD.

If you get 20th level characters, make sure you look at the capstones. Most of the time these are irrelevant to campaigns, but if you're starting at 20th level with gestalt, it can be extremely amazing. Here's a thought:

Mobile Fighter/Monk of Four Winds

With the Mobile fighter capstone, full-attack actions like flurry of blows are a standard action. You can use your crazy fast monk speed and flurry! Oh, and the slow time monk power? You can use it to flurry multiple times a round. (Normally this would be a somewhat clunky gestalt; but starting at 20th level? I think this works.)

EDIT: Mobile Fighter/Magus might be nifty too. Spell Combat would be standard action, no?

EDIT EDIT: Or how about the simplicity of a two-weapon Mobile Fighter/Rogue (or Ninja)? Guaranteed full-round attack every round, so let the good times roll. :B

This probably isn't nearly as min/max-ed as it could be, but watch out for amazing capstones. I don't think Paizo really cared much about capstones being balanced.

EDIT: Whoops? Is this at 18th level? Don't mind me... >.>

Thanks for the accolades, but I have to admit that it appears I made a few minor mistakes in my proposal. But they're mistakes of the "I missed minor abilities that make it more powerful" sort, so it's not major.

Specifically, a Kensai has an earlier ability that also increases his critical modifier for a weapon. So, that x4 that I mentioned if you are using a falcata? Yeah, You can actually make it a x5 (costs two arcane points, which might be painful, but such is life).

And yeah... at standard WBL, the build really shines, particularly if you pick up a crafting feat like Wonderous Items using one of your wizard bonus feats.

The only thing that makes me sad about it is the inability to also acquire a familiar that can UMD with it. Bladebound unfortunately features a hard prohibition on accomplishing that.

monk/Druid take advantage of wisdom for both AC and spell casting and wild-shape to increase your front line fighting power

Edgar Lamoureux wrote:

If you're going to go with wizard, I recommend taking the Kensai archetype. It'll help keep your AC up, without that pesky Arcane Spell Failure %.

One of the favorite High-level Magus Gestalts I made was a Kensai/Bladebound Magus 20/Weapon Master Fighter 20, specializing in Scimitar with Dervish Dance. I think his damage on a regular hit was somewhere around 1d6+30ish, with a crit bringing that up to 4d6+120. Unless of course, you spend 2 arcane pool points using Perfect strike from Kensai, and use your immediate/swift action for the Weapon Master's Deadly critical, then a crit deals 6d6+180, and you still have your other attacks, one of which can be a Spellstrike.

I was just pondering Kensai / Diviner. Full casting progression on both, ridiculous initiative, stat synergy, and no particularly "wasted" abilities.

I did consider this when I was thinking up my build... However, Kensai actually gets class abilities that make most of the Diviner abilities redundant. You're better off with a different school because of it.