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I can delete the post I just did where Einhardt moves into flanking and Vox (hopefully) kills the rat. But even if I retcon the readied action, Vox will have already moved this turn and so cannot step 5 feet away from where the invisible creature was last seen, and so cannot attack it this turn either.
Einhardt doesn't have to move into flanking, and so would the plan be to retcon Vox's command to instead have Einhardt attack the invisible creature? In which case, hopefully she would use her scent ability to help keep track of it.
I just want to make sure I understand the plan. Like I said, I can delete my gameplay post, which currently is having Vox (hopefully) kill the sleeping rat and then Einhardt (I think) moving back to guard Vox, which I asked GM Silbeg if he saw the flow of actions occurring this way.
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Where did the guy disappear from last? Is it the square with the axe in it?
He appeared and disappeared in the same square.
Also, how is he doing it? He's a barbarian rager! Is he using a wand or something? Anything we can perceive, steal off him, disarm, sunder or anything like that? Assuming we can't do something like that as a readied action for next time he appears (eg. Vox might be best readying a sunder potion or disarm wand)...
You haven't seen a wand, he is using his axe two-handed. The only thing you may have noticed...
See this postThe purple liquid in the crystal vial now gurgles, and Snarltongue goes invisible!
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Almost posted this on the gameplay thread, but realised it was all ooc! Didn't want to clutter things up any further than I already have. Sorry all!
Re: flanking and precision... regardless of your ruling, I'll leave my action as posted. I've posted too many conditionals and readies and retains already! I may change tactics next round, though, we'll see how this plays out.
I think our best hope is for Roudantaimi to have readied shots rather than healing anyone - despite the reload time! Obviously readies for the others, too. With Einhardt able to just move into his last position and know where he is, we should be able to make sure we get our melee readies in range... otherwise just accept the 50% miss chance.
Wish list for Bonekeep (for everyone):
- More invisibility killers!
- Potion bandolier
- Paper cartridges and rapid reload for Roudantaimi
- Raging vitality for Strong Brute! Poor guy almost bought the farm
- Bigger heals when we need it (potions maybe, otherwise maybe a wand of cure moderate... ouch to the cost on that, though!!!)
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Ok, one place that seems to be telling is in the environment - darkness rules:
Creatures blinded by darkness lose the ability to deal extra damage due to precision (for example, via sneak attack or a duelist's precise strike ability).
It later describes that "All opponents have total concealment from a blinded creature, so the blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat."
Even that section is all messed up in its order. The total concealment is the key part here, from what I can tell. So, I am going to rule that no form of precision damage (sneak attacks, precise strike, etc). Especially since the precision damage in the precise strike feat is called out as being "precision damage like sneak attack".
So, Arturo's action stays, and he deals damage!
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Am I wrong is feeling that level 1 & 2 were tough w/ ability drains, and this is rough with invisibility. Are these 'normal' issues that come up at these levels because I don't remember too much of that in PFS. Maybe a difference between the scenarios and the APs.
Should we take a break and head back to town after this?
@ Jaender and Brute - sorry you are on the sidelines for so long, we will get you back ASAP.
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Thornkeep is brutal... and this is a CR5 encounter (APL+2). This is the first invisibility encounter, but he is very, very tough. There is some of this in scenarios, but more usually darkness. This invisibility is very different than the norm. Part of Jason Buhlman "breaking the rules" for his encounters. BTW - Buhlman wrote all three Bonekeeps as well.
This combat should not last the round... actually surprised and disappointed that Einhardt missed!
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A barbarian rager who's not dead after 40 damage with the ability to become invisible at will as a move action, and 3-4 giant rats into the bargain, sounds like a bit higher than CR 5 to me (circumstantial difficulty rather than actual creature CRs). He should at least be copping an AoO for glugging a potion. Barbarians are not supposed to be able to self-sustain invisibility for a reason... and putting it on a naturally high stealth creature is extra salt in the wound.
At least it's not greater invisibility! At least we have finally figured out that we have powder and scent!
I don't think too many of our resources have been used in order to continue. Mostly, it's "just" hit points, and we have wands to burn up. ;-)
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Well, that's what the vials are doing for him. Giving him the invisibility, rage, and fast healing (the latter two don't have limits).
He is a barbarian 4... with a good CON, so has good HP, especially while raging.
If you figure a base CON14, he'd have 18 while raging, which gives 16hp to start. Level 1 for 12 (28), and three levels at 7 (21) is 49hp -- before feats like toughness, raging vitality, etc.
Base, that is a CR3 encounter (level -1) - the three CR1/3 rats don't add much of anything to the mix. But, adding +2 for his extra abilities (especially including the invis) seems about right.
He is supposed to be tough, and he is. You've almost had him a couple of times.
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For the CR, I agree the barbarian you describe is CR 5. Only level 4, though? Wow, I thought level 5... but wasn't he on -53 and still running at some stage? guess you were including fast healing subtly.... but makes sense). And wow. Fast healing, too. Wow. The rats total to CR 1 on their own, and I think they still ad 1 to the CR of a CR 5 encounter, so that should be CR 6... but we're getting picky. Either is still level-appropriate!
Oh, and by the way, I wasn't meaning to complain about the encounter! No need to apologize about providing a vicious challenge - I really enjoyed the tactical thinking we needed in there. This encounter and the last one made me realize how much we'd gotten into a coasting kind of groove. I was just highlighting (for our mutual sanity) what an unusual b•tch of a combination it was. I'm expecting much of that sort of thing from Bonekeep (from what little I've heard).
We'll have to take a really good look at our tactics and our equipment purchases going in to Bonekeep if we want to survive being level 4!
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If it is dark in here, one of the things jaender is really good at is stealth. Perhaps we should spend more time scouting, so we can be better prepared when we go into these encounters... Jaender's stealth modifier is +16 and I can cast vanish if I need to escape, and he has darkvision so there is no need for me to light a torch.
I am definitely in favor of taking our time a bit more and making sure we are ready.
Should we make our SOP for new rooms this?
1.Arturo checks door for traps/disables
2.Strong brute opens door (which may tip off any obvious enemies)
3.Jaender stealths in to scout and returns with any reports before any actions are taken. If he is found, he will rely on vanish to get him out of trouble if necessary
4.Then the party can properly buff before barreling in...
It may not always work out that way, but just throwing it out there. What do you think? Modifications?
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I kinda like it that it's goblins that are kicking our butts... Making the classic cannon-fodder enemies dangerous opponents is just golden.
On the other hand, invisible barbarian... That's nasty... On this level we really don't have much options to counter invisibility (besides bags of flour). If this is how these modules run, I guess we should start preparing a bit early for different immunities and conditions...
-Invisibility
*Bags of flour, Glitterdust, wand of faerie fire, see invisibility
-Magical darkness
*Ioun torch(?), oil of daylight
-Elemental damage
*Resist energy
-Flying enemies
*Potion of fly
-Incorporeal
*magic missile, Magic weapons, ghost salted weapons
-DR
*cold iron / silver (adamantine is way too expensive), alchemical blanches
I mean these are normal in PFS scenarios from level 5 onwards, but looks like here we need these already..
--
And Jaender's plan looks good, if he's comfortable of going in first
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And Jaender's plan looks good, if he's comfortable of going in first
As long as I can use my stealth, I have no problem going in first. Also as long as it is understood that I can take 20 on my perception in the room as I scout. Anything that would interrupt that and I would either scream the code word, or cast vanish
Code word: "GLaaarrhaagg!!!!" or as an alternative "What the #$*&$!" or lastly, in very dire circumstances, "ITS GOING TO EAT ME!!!!!"
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Taking 20 takes 1 minute, since doing a perception check is a move action. (2 move actions per round, or 3 seconds per check * 20 = 1 minute)
Presumably that means that they would get 20 perception checks to see me as well.
Maybe a better way to do it is this:
After Arturo and strong brute check/open a door (in case of obvious threats that jump out at us) Jaender rolls his stealth check, then enters the room for 18 seconds.
-1 move action in, slowly and stealthily (ie half speed, no penalty to check)
-4 move actions to percept (ie, 4 perception checks)
-1 move action out, again, slowly and stealthily (ie half speed, no penalty to check)
That accounts for 3 rounds. If you want, we can do it on an initiative order as well, with the rest of the group holding/readying actions for when I scream. I think that makes the most sense. Gives me a decent chance to get a good review of the room, and allows us to then enter the room prepared. I don't want to die in here!
If that is acceptable, when we do our SOP, I will just roll all 5 checks at once. Stealth to start, followed by 4 perception checks. This will also help us organize our actions before we enter a room, and then it will make sense logically when Arturo or someone else says "I am ready to run in as soon as I hear the wayang scream".
Also, there is a general assumption that unless otherwise specified, everything is taking 10. Some goblin creature sitting in a dark room for days on end would logically be taking 10 as he sits and waits for something to happen. Now if something tipped him off that there might be something going on, then it might be actively searching. I have always assumed that skill checks worked like: taking 10 = autopilot, rolling = actively trying to do better than average.
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FYI - as a reminder:
Most of the rooms in the Forgotten Laboratory have 20-foot high ceilings, and unless otherwise stated, all the entrances to chambers in this level are simple wooden doors. Lighting is virtually nonexistent except where otherwise noted.
Looks like for light you were using
Jaender Darkvision, Wayfinder
Ophiuchus Light Spell
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I'm fine with the SOP, but would propose the following slight modification:
1.Arturo checks door for traps/disables
2. Resistance chain
3.Strong brute opens door (which may tip off any obvious enemies)
4.Jaender stealths in to scout and returns with any reports before any actions are taken. If he is found, he will rely on vanish to get him out of trouble if necessary
5. Resistance chain
6.Then the party can properly buff before barreling in...
No point in holding off on the resistance chain. It's unlimited usage and for SOP we won't be under any kind of hurry.
For GM Silbeg's take 10 and 1 minute to search a room, Jaender, I believe this is to search the entire room for hidden treasure, traps and everything (eg. with the average 5 x 4 square room, that is 1 action per square, 2 actions per round). You're talking about checking for enemies, I believe. Two different types of check!
Taking 20 to perceive enemies is a risky proposition unless you're invisible (as Silbeg mentioned), I'm happy with 1 or 2 perception checks when you stealth in. Keep in mind, too, that you'll be in the open for anything with darkvision, unless the room affords other options.
Regarding the shopping list... I think we need to think about it some more, consult the survival guide and plan our purchases appropriately (ie. don't double up too much) before we begin anything resembling Bone Keep!
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Solved our invisibility problem Dungeoneers Handbook. Only 40 gp too.
Is the Jaender scouting not working very well? Also let's add Ophiuchus and Brute to being closer to Jaender in our SOP.
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Just realized that I have a Draconic Book from one of the hauls - should have given it to Jaender.
Oh an how awesome would it have been to have this?
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Hey guys, nice one! We could have done that last encounter better, though. I'd be concerned if that were a Bonkeep encounter (which, from all accounts, can be a fair bit harder than that!). Tactics-wise lessons I can see from this dungeon:
1. We need better ranged attacks. Jaender gets some 2nd level niceness and can swap out spells at this level. Could be a good idea. Also, Strong Brute should really get some javelins - we all need some ranged capacity, but staying out of reach of the barbarian won't be so easy with javelins. They apply strength damage, so they're a great option.
2. Einhardt needs to move off the "guard default". I'm not sure if GM Silbeg is willing to combine initiative like I do for Amaranti (it really just makes things faster if you're not waiting for the player twice in every combat), but at the very least Einhardt needs to delay until after Vox by default (except in surprise rounds where Vox is surprised). We've often missed out on her superior movement and awesome trip ability as a potential opening salvo.
3. Invisibility foils are needed. I'm thinking one of us could invest in a wand of glitterdust - at least some scrolls. I'm happy if that is me. Einhardt needs to be used in invisibility and concealment situations for her scent so we can target properly. She needs to be in melee with the invisible creature and move after them. It means we'll always know which square to target with glitterdust.
4. I think our melee characters (including Arturo) need to start thinking about being able to deal damage with different damage types. To take Strong Brute as an example, an adamantine lucerne hammer would be an exceptional purchase. It would help with overcoming object hardness (not to mention many constructs' DR), deals bludgeoning and piercing (to complement his scythe's slashing) and has reach! It's also two-handed... wins all around. For everyone else, having some alchemical silver (bludgeoning) weapons would be great and some cold iron weapons are always handy.
5. When in a typical dungeon and facing off against spellcasters who can fly (or similar), we can just move out of the room (unless there's some kind of hurry). In the last battle, we would have been much better off to just head back down the corridor and force him to come down. If he didn't, we could just wait out his spell duration. Fly-type spells usually only last minutes. Of course, with better ranged, low enough ceilings and/or an enlarge person we could get around this.
6. To help keep us in the game without requiring scurrying heal-bots, we all need to carry decent cure potions, cure moderate or better.
7. Kind of an edge case, but Enlarge person has a range - it isn't a touch attack. Since it is a full round cast, definitely don't cast it next to the person you're enlarging - especially when the bad guy can throw bombs at you both, potentially spoiling the spell mid-cast!
Any thoughts? Further suggestions? I know Arturo's charge was sub-optimal, but I didn't know he was 10ft in the air! ;-)
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So, what do we want to do for our next module/scenario?
I would suggest doing one or two scenarios (getting you all to level 4.2), the second of which could be Bonekeep 1. But, as we know Bonekeep is not approved for PbP.
So, our best option would be to play a scenario while we figure out a time to try and do Bonekeep via Roll20 + Google Hangout, or something like that. I'll start investigating what that will take for us all, and maybe play one game that way.
#3-01 Frostfur Goblins would be a great one for this group, especially since I am the only one who has played/run it!
Another great scenario that I'd like to run you guys through would be #3-21 Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment.
Could do both!
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I thought you were going to do Bonekeep PbP anyway due to the lack of an official official ruling. Look at this guy, becomes a VL and all of a sudden... ;-)
From memory, at least 2 of us couldn't do a Google Hangout. We don't have to do Bonekeep - but I'd (personally) really like to.
I'd love to play the Frostfur Goblins. Would be awesome to run alongside Reign of Winter. Temple of Empyrial Enlightenment sounds fun, too.
On the next full stop equation, since John's still running his Beasts, I figured you'd be taking over the GM chair for the Drongos (our main characters). I'll be done with them soon enough (mid next week at the latest, unless we really slow down over Easter) and running the Superstars Schedule alternating with the Slayers' games (and possibly other GMs as required).
Once the Scions is over, I'll be doing Reign of Winter full-time. I'll only head over to run the Drongos if absolutely necessary (eg. to provide Jack with player credit because he already has GM credit, GMs are too busy / away, etc). Mostly, it'll be AP, AP, AP for me.
So... based on that, isn't our next move "Fires of Karamoss"? Followed by "From Under Ice" if the timing works out! Lort just has to do that before he dings level 6.
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I love the suggestions Arturo - I will be spending gold properly with this chronicle to help take care of some of those things. I may spend some money on special crossbow bolts, (adamantine/cold iron/etc) but for the most part I am relying on my spells to do what they need to do.
I am very excited about getting level 2 spells finally - you can be sure they will be ranged/damage focused. I am not taking point blank shot and precise shot as feats for nothing :) And definitely going to be swapping a 1st level spell again for something more damage oriented. I love the fire spit ability, but it is quickly becoming useless as our foes have significantly more hit points.
I have been disappointed in how little damage output this sorcerer is capable of, and I just keep telling myself that it will get better when he gets access to higher level spells.
As far as the next scenario - Just want to mention that Jaender is technically at 3.1 right now (4.1 after this chronicle) since he did the original PbP Superstars game, Trial by Machine. One more scenario would put him at 4.2 - which is something I am definitely ok with. Since we are finishing up the Drongos before we switch over to Reign of Winter, I am good with a little overlap between the three, starting a scenario with the slayers while we finish with the drongos.
Nice job again Silbeg, and thanks so much for running it!
Have I mentioned before how much I love this group?
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Good suggestions Arturo. Ophiuchus does not have any good ranged options. I can address that, and should have after the goblins in the opening scene of last mod. My greatsword is cold iron, but I though that my flail was silvered, and realized in mod (I think the rats) that it wasn't.
If we take a break from this group, and the Drongos, Merchant's will pick up. We are in the slow portion right now, and then either Silbeg or I can jump in for them.
As for our next, I 100% jumping up and down like a 5 year old who has to pee vote for Bonekeep. If not, understand, and as always - respect.
Just out of curiosity, why would we jump to a scenario instead of to Mod 4 of this?
Seconding Jaender, as long as we are gaming, any mod/scenario is good for me.
Silbeg, as always, thank you. That was super fun!
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Doing the scenario was in the plans to get Bonekeep in, I think. However, we can hold off.
I'd still like to do it, but we can certainly wait. We could also do it with the Drongos instead of the Slayers, and it might be worth waiting to do it at high tier.
Looks like I have access to all three, but as far as I know, only Bonekeep 1 is legal to run outside of a Con.