GM-Grenfax Curse of the Crimson Throne

Game Master Grenfax

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Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3

Yeah. My trip to Thailand isn't for another month. I leave on June 16th and should be back a week later by the following Monday.


Nik - I am sorry to hear that.

Trisnae - Well.... don't I feel silly....

Continuing on then....

Grand Lodge

Thanks. Our cat was sick, so we decided it would be bad to leave her. The good news is she seems to be recovering, so it was worth it.

On a game note... I have updated the treasure list for the 500 gold, and I will be updating it for the borrowed items from Trisane shortly.

Also for down time I will probably be making scrolls (if finding Tobar doesn't take all of it), so any special requests? I have a list below of ones I intend to make if possible (in order of what I think would be appropriate).

Charm Animal
Monkeyfish
Heighten Awareness
Protection From Evil
Alter Self
Delay Poison
False Life

Beyond this I am open to suggestions.

Also, since it looks like we will not be joined by our alchemist friend, I may also take brew poison at some point.


alchemist friend?

Grand Lodge

The character that was with us for about a week. The elf.


AH!! Dalian, the investigator. Sorry - busy day; I am with you now.


I'll be gone with Mat/Trisane from June 16-24. I will also be gone from July 11-17. I'm up for whatever until then.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

I say we go get rid of the items we don't want first, we can ask around there for Tobar. If nothing comes up, back to the gnome, see if he has any update on the kids, and then start checking in with other shop owners in the area.


Hi all - sorry for being so slow to post - I am trying to get a major project done at work; due tomorrow...

and a reminder - I will be out of town all next week with no internet service, so we will resume on the 12th until everyone else goes on vacay.

I will try to post a map and more info tonight....


I am back from vacation, and have a map up (just scroll down along the left side towards the bottom.

Go ahead and start where your token is. The enemies with purple dots are above you in the shingles for those that are aware.

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3

Trisane already took a round's worth of actions so I'll wait for the rest of the group and the baddies before I post again.


Trisane - just move yourself where you would like on the map. I put you towards the back based on your post but you can adjust the position of the token as you like.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Ophelia's surprised, so she'll join in after.

Grand Lodge

Sorry, got caught up in work and other things. I'll post shortly.


Trust me- I understand completely!


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Is there any spot where Ophelia could reach the sniper with her whip (15 ft)? I'm guessing no, but wanted to check.


If you were adjacent to the front sniper, given the reach of the whip - I will say yes. The back sniper is higher. You may also try to climb (skill-relevant factors below) up into the shingles.

Climb:
You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand.
While climbing, you can't move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
You also can't use a shield while climbing.
Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall.
Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage.


Thanks to Nik for Mounted Trisane and Silverbeak icons; they are just below the current battlemap... for reference.

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3

FYI. Elden is out of the country until later next week (Thursday 7/20 probably). So we'll probably have to pause combat until then.


I knew there was another vacation in here somewhere...
If Trisane and Nik want to act, we can then pause until Elden returns...


I just posted, poorly, but it's there. I will be checking in as often as I have Wifi.


Ha! - the post was good - the dice roller is "unkind"...
We wil continue as you are available Elden - but enjoy your trip!!

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3

Hey there, fellow heroes! As your benevolent leader guy, I wanted to share my thoughts on resolving this encounter within the next couple rounds so we can get on with our downtime errands.

The Facts:

#1) With every npc we're facing currently at about 3-4 HD, it makes this encounter roughly CR 7+ which is well beyond any of our ability to handle as a group at our current levels (epic++ challenge rating). For reference, the final boss encounter of book 1 is only CR 6.

#2) We've done minimal damage (paizo dice roller clearly has some player hate this time around) to any of them and are just getting nickel and dimed to death until our resources are exhausted and we all die. I suggest we save our expendables for encounters actually included in the AP (not random 1 offs).

The Plan:

#1) Once Silverbeak arrives next round (if she doesn't get shot down first), she's going to attempt to bull rush one of the snipers off the roof and then hover (per the feat) to create debris cover for us to escape.

#2) We'll need Nik to top us off with channels (don't worry about excluding enemies since there's no way we can defeat them in combat anyway).

#3) With any luck, Ophelia and Elden will roll well and can take one down or trip another one or something to punch a hole past the leader to the east. For this to work, we may need to soak some AoOs from the 2 guys when we rush past to escape.

#4) By this time the Korvosan Guards (or Hellknights to wipe the floor with these random lawless upstarts) should be close enough to handle this group if they choose to pursue us. What do you guys think?

Grand Lodge

Seems solid to me.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

These guys are tough, I support a distraction and run technique.


Hi all - there were several concerns raised about the last encounter. I am putting together a comprehensive response that will (hopefully) address all the issues raised. I am not ignoring you or brushing your concerns off.


OK - there seems to be a general concern about the last encounter.

I inserted this encounter to provide an opportunity for Elden to be able to actively participate - as a fighter combat is where he will have an opportunity to shine. After the last encounter that was all roleplay and social interaction, I wanted the new addition to have a chance to really act. So yes I made a challenging encounter.

Then the dice roller turned on the party, and Elden in particular, and that did not help.

I understand that looking at the CR, it seems off; however, I have always found the CR system flawed, particularly in cases where there are a number of lesser opponents. That is an arguable point and I realize, just my opinion - we can go down that rabbit hole separately if people wish. I did base the number of opponents on: the fact that only 3 would be able to engage the party in melee any given point; the fact I was nerfing them slightly, changing bows to crossbows, removing some magic items; and finally the seeming ease with which the party has overcome the combat AP challenges previously.

From my side
- Your opponents had lower attack bonuses, lower armor classes, no magic, no healing. To be honest, it was hard to hit the fighters - with Trisane in total defense it required a 20. Their HP were 26 for the street thugs, less for the snipers.
- At any point the most any PC was injured (keeping in mind healing from Nik occurred along the way) Elden took 13/32; Ophleia 7/17; Silverbeak 8/22; Nik 6/21 and Trisane 1/25. No one lost more than half there hit points (at any one time).

The question of magic items/treasure has also been raised. Oddly enough, I have provided all the items the encounters include, and more. Granted, a large number of the "and more" are non-magical, but I have added healing potions and other expendable items outside the AP.

To be honest - I didn't think the party was actually that challenged, despite the perception. It has been indicated that the party had no chance of dealing with this encounter.... CR aside - why do you feel that way? I am not being sarcastic - I am honestly seeking to understand why this was seemingly so overwhelming.

That said - I don't want to kill PC's in a side story encounter, or otherwise. I do want the game to be fun, and the story to be interesting and meaningful.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

These are my thoughts...

It isn't bad to have a challenging encounter, most of our encounters have been handled easily up to this point. I agree with the CR math being skewed, it really depends on a lot of variables, and it isn't easy for GMs to find a good balance between party toughness and encounters without relying on CR. It's a bit more experimental sometimes.

For this encounter specifically, what really hurt us where the dice. I'm going to explore what happened, but this is not a criticism on anyone's choices, just my take on things.

Poor Elden couldn't hit anything, but when he did, two guys dropped. Trisane had a hard time at first, then stopped attacking altogether to go full defense. That really left our two fighters out of combat. Nik was mostly in a support/healing role, and Ophelia was pecking away at a sniper, but then tried (and failed) to assist Elden.

If we had better rolls and could actually hit and damage these guys, I don't think it would have been so bad.

As for items and treasure...APs can be odd about those. A lot of the early APs had options for, or expected the GM to fill in xp and treasure with random encounters. I'm not sure if the new version changed that or not. Ophelia has 3 magic items: 2 wands and one potion that were all looted. She doesn't even have half of what a new wand would cost in gp. It seems this AP may be a little stingy in that department, or we're missing things, I'm not sure.


There were a few things missed; or encounters that the party bypassed -which is not a bad thing.
I will look for opportunities to add additional magic loot, particularly more expendables and items suited for Nik Ophelia as casters.

The APs are odd about treasure - the more I read through different ones, the more apparent it becomes.

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3
Trisane Imphawke wrote:
#1) With every npc we're facing currently at about 3-4 HD, it makes this encounter roughly CR 7+ which is well beyond any of our ability to handle as a group at our current levels (epic++ challenge rating). For reference, the final boss encounter of book 1 is only CR 6.
GM-Grenfax wrote:
To be honest - I didn't think the party was actually that challenged, despite the perception. It has been indicated that the party had no chance of dealing with this encounter.... CR aside - why do you feel that way? I am not being sarcastic - I am honestly seeking to understand why this was seemingly so overwhelming.

Sorry about that. I can see how you read it that way. I didn't mean to give the impression that the encounter was impossible. What I actually meant was that it felt way more challenging than what we should have had to deal with during "downtime".

I can explain more (mechanics, story etc.) later, I'm actually about to head out to the beach for the weekend without internet access and will be able to get into more details when I get back on Tuesday.


No apologies needed, and it wasn't just you that I was replying to.

I just want to be get a sense of the specifics things that caused this, so I can understand and we can work through.

Enjoy the beach!!! See you Tuesday!

Grand Lodge

As you said, it was not just Trisane you were replying to...

The point I was trying to make is not only the challenge of the encounter, but the timing of it and others like it.

This was a simple trip to sell some treasure and buy some gear, something some of us greatly need. The early volumes of any AP have limited options for gear, even more so specifically for casters. Being able to purchase lower level wands and scrolls, maybe some potions greatly expands the options casters have, and allows parties to continue further without resting so the casters can get their spells back.

It was great that the guard offered MW options of gear for the party, this eliminated some of the issue with this while the city was in ruins but it left limited options for the casters. Ophelia can't really wear armor and Nik is limited due to a low strength. Neither of them rely much on weapons so Nik could have gotten a masterwork quarterstaff and Ophelia a masterwork whip, neither would do much to make them better in adventuring.

Being able to purchase upgraded gear and consumables is a basic concept in the Pathfinder game, yet we are currently 3rd level and have had little opportunity to do so. Specifically when we have tried we were told to come back another time (when selling to the gnome), we went back and stopped a robbery in progress, and now we have been ambushed by a serious threat. As a party we are sitting on 4k of gold and treasure but unless we want to make a dragon's nest of it in the Citadel what good does it do us if we can never use it.

The CR system may be busted, and the lethality of the situation can be debated, but it is the statistical level of the challenge and the timing. I applaud the attempt to give Elden a chance to stretch his muscles, but a lesser challenge would have served just as well, it even would have left it less to chance. Yes the CR system doesn't work in isolated encounters like this, but it isn't meant to either. Statistically we were superior... We have higher to hits, but not by much. They didn't have superior weapons, but we're not swinging vorpals yet. They didn't have as many hit points, well that is debatable depending on who you compare it to.

This is all true, but then add in the fact there were 8 of them and they had us in a position that was very limiting to our tactical options. Luck prevented them from being hit by our heavy damage, but the only reason they weren't smashing Trisane was he gave up his attacks to be a shield for everyone else. Yes, Elden was not taking more damage than Nik could heal but the only reason Nik was able to heal so well was he got lucky on the rolls and since we weren't damaging them there was no need to worry about selective channel.

So, from our view we had an encounter that lasted 5+ rounds before a single opponent of 8 was dropped. We made one run away for a moment and we held another for a moment. Nik burned most of his spells already, though he could keep the fighters going and Ophelia had also burned most of her spells by then. And at this point we were still looking at facing 4+ of them 3+ of which were completely undamaged at that point. Yes, we probably would have survived but it would have been a bigger challenge than anything we have faced (and knowing the AP, anything we were likely to face) and ran the risk of killing one or possibly all of the party. And this was a random encounter meant to let the fighter be a fighter while the party is unprepared for such an attack while they are out getting some groceries.

I understand the AP is supposed to leave us feeling that Korvosa is a war zone. I know this is intentional, but if we cannot leave the Citadel without facing life or death situations then other options need to be made available to us. Either that or we soldier on and Nik becomes part dragon sleeping on a bed of gold and silver coins.


You have some valid points.

I have done a little reading on the DM blogs, and your issue with the AP is not isolated, others commented that their players had issues with...
-The AP sets Korvosa as a war zone/under seige, with limited supplies.
-Lack of treasure (even though it is intended).
-The "random" encounters every time you venture into the city did get to a lot of parties.
There were a couple other complaints... but I don't really want to add to the list.

The AP has roughly a dozen encounters set for any time the party leaves the citadel (or their chosen base), and not all of them are random. From what I gathered, many of these encounters including ones the party did not engage in set up later encounters in the AP. The AP hints that the majority should be conducted prior to the next big encounter.

I will try to be mindful of balancing out opportunities for the casters to get items. So far I have been giving extra healing, and alchemical items, I will try to throw in some more desirable items.

What are some things you as a player (this is for everyone!) would be looking for. -Realistically; I know everyone wants artifacts and the like.

Grand Lodge

We should just move on.


So - the holy symbol was worth 300gp... Are there items the party would want, that a priest of Sheyln would possess? I had a few ideas in mind, but thought input might help steer the reward.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Nothing that come to mind for me.


Sorry for the delay in posting - been having some issues with my pet.

I will get started again Monday! Hope you all have a great weekend!


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

No worries.

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3

Hmm... So sadly, none of the rumor information provided gave us any leads on Tobar. I'm not sure whether it was just the results of a poor diplomacy roll to gather information or there really isn't anything we can do to find him at this point. In either case, we are no closer to accomplishing our immediate goal of finding Nik's ever-increasingly elusive brother.

What do you guys want to do now? Any ideas? I'm sort of at a loss for direction at the moment.

Seems our options are:

1.) Sit around the Citadel and wait for a new assignment from Kroft.
2.) Chase random thieves and/or criminals about the city for justice.
3.) Hunt lycanthropes in Old Korvosa for unknown reason.
4.) Mess around in the Shingles in Old Korvasa for unknown reason.
5.) Go talk with Devargo again for unknown reason.
6.) Try to find Trinia who allegedly poisoned the king.
7.) Get involved in a blood feud between the thieves guild and the red mantis assassins (what could go wrong?)

Grand Lodge

Nik said he feels his brother is dead and needs to move on, we can look for the children but there are no leads. So, my suggestion is return to the guard and see what they need.

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3

So it looks like we've got "several" days of downtime on our hands at the citadel before we continue with the main AP story. Does anyone have anything they'd like to do during this downtime? I'd like to get Silverbeak healed up and check through our inventory, possibly make some purchases as well.

GM-Grenfax - Would there be any benefit to Trisane spending more time attempting to gather information on Nik's brother, Tobar? What I mean is: If I get a good enough roll would he be able to get a lead?


Yes, you will have several days to rest and recoup - healing will not be an issue; so everyone can rest at full hp, including Silverbeak.

Send me shopping lists, and I will let you know.

I have some ideas for Tobar, and have talked with Nik a bit. There are some clues that the party may find if they "ask the right questions", but nothing as simple as a good die roll. This will play out through the campaign - in part because if Nik had a good lead on Tobar he would follow that path instead of the AP (at least right now). Not to fear, while the trail has and may again grow cold, there will be clues here and there.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

No shopping list for me, but any chance Ophelia has time to find her snake friend?

Grand Lodge

Nik would like to sit with Ophelia and ask her to make 3 sketches of Tobar, if she is able to.

In addition I would like to look into purchasing a darkwood quarterstaff (cost is 640g). Also, look into how to get it consecrated (cost 150g).

And finally I would like to craft four scrolls.

Scroll of Alter Self (CL 3) - DC 8 (cost 71.25)

Spellcraft:
1d20 + 7 ⇒ (13) + 7 = 20

Scroll of Lesser Restoration (CL 3) - DC 8 (cost 71.25)

Spellcraft:
1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 11

Scroll of Charm Animal (CL 3) - DC 8 (cost 35.625)

Spellcraft:
1d20 + 7 ⇒ (10) + 7 = 17

Scroll of Monkey Fish (CL 3) - DC 8 (cost 35.625)

Spellcraft:
1d20 + 7 ⇒ (5) + 7 = 12

In order to make the scrolls I would need get 167 gold for supplies. In addition I would like to gain a scroll box for 5 gold.

One last thing... Ophelia, can you give Nik the wand of acid splash? Rom would like to play with it.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

After speaking with Cressida, Ophelia would like to buy a scroll of Disguise Other.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Ophelia can attempt to sketch Tobar, but would suggest she isn't very good at sketching and might be able to get a better artist from the Shelynites.

She'll give the wand over to Rom and communicate what the command word is to activate it.

Grand Lodge

Ophelia_Wintrish wrote:
She'll give the wand over to Rom and communicate what the command word is to activate it.

Any idea how many charges it has?


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

23 charges left.

Silver Crusade

Male Human (Chelaxian) Ranger (Sable Company Marine/Urban Ranger)/3

I guess the only item I'd be looking for now would be a set of masterwork thieves' tools. They cost 100g. I could sell off the common set I have now.


Ophelia - Yes, you can "gain" the viper familiar we discussed. The RAW does not really address exactly what is done or happens when the initial familiar is acquired other than "chosen".
Disguise Self -subtract the gp, add the scroll to your equip list.

Nik - Consecrated Weapon out of Adventurer's Armory? What god or image would be represented on the staff - we will have to bend the rules a bit, as Shaman do not typically worship the "gods" as much as the divine power in all things- you have been playing Nik as kind of a general follower of multiple divine entities, so it is doable; just need to figure out the details. And who would consecrate it for you.
4 scrolls - subtract the gp, add the scrolls to your equip list.

Trisane - MWK thieves tools .... oddly enough that Guard probably could supply those, and would "buy" your current thieves tools.

Anything for Elden?

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