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GM-Grenfax Curse of the Crimson Throne

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Grand Lodge

Okay, I caught up. It seems there is nothing more to say, we can move on.

Grand Lodge

Updated gear and spells.


FYI... from PRD>Environments/Underwater
Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land.

Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

There is a table for conditions - Trisane/and soon Alistair will either be swimming or have Firm footing; this is a -2 Attack; 1/2 normal damage for slashing, bludgeoning weapons or normal for piercing. Movement will vary for swimming or walking.

Ophelia would have hit Gobblegut had he been on land.

After Nik posts, I will start rd 3 with Gobblegut's action, then open thing for the party.

Grand Lodge

Hey guys. Sorry to say, Nik's gonna be out for another week so he said to go on with the action. I talk to him pretty regularly irl so if you need anything from him just let me know and I'll see what I can do.


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

So are we going to wait or try to do something with him by way of emails maybe?


Sorry - been away today; I will pick up Wednesday

Grand Lodge

Sorry for being absent guys. Health issues this time. I should be able to post most days but if there is a delay please move on if needed.

If things work he way I suspect, I will be able to post more often though.

So, of note, I am not sure I follow how combat is progressing, so any advice is welcome.


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

We landed the boat next the docks on the lower level. Every got out of the boat and moved up to the one door. Trisane played with the lock and opened the door. there was a trap in the floor and Trisane tried to jump across and failed. He fell to the water below. He tried to climb out twice and failed both times. A alligator came over to have a Trisane snack. Ophelia dazed the alligator and Alistair and Trisane argued about tactics. Nik shot the alligator and did some damage. Ophelia missed her shot.Trisane missed his attack. Alistair moved around to the other s I de of the room and jumped down on the aligator doing some damage. That is where we are at


Init is Gobblegut (the alligator) then the party. Nik had a readied action to shoot the alligator as it emerged from the water, so Nik has acted first in rd 4, followed by Gobblegut, then the rest of the party acted. Rd 5 will start...

Glad to have the original Nik back!

Grand Lodge

glad to be back.


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

Are we waiting on someone or something that we missed????


No, you are waiting on me. Awfully impatient for a guy being attacked!

Grand Lodge

Sorry to ask this but where does this leave us with Lamm?

Lamm is disarmed but did Trisane's blow still hit?


I put a revision on the gameplay side, I am sorry for my oversight.

I tried to keep all the actions as close as possible, so we can move forward.

Also - Thank you for the new tokens Nik!! I will be updateing the map with new tokens made by nik in the next day or two.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

No worries, it happens.

Grand Lodge

As Ophelia said. It happens to us all. Thanks for clearing it up.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Map question: to the North of the room we are currently is in blacked out. From the outside (when we approached) did it look like part of this level, or is it above us?


North of you is an area under the building above, but open to the river. It was just an area that was dark as you approached and not really "scene". The party would know that it was open to the river, but not specific details - pilings walkways...


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

Will try to post something later tonight..been very busy with painting, cleaning, yard work out my ars...
Yes it has been a very long honey do list

Grand Lodge

No problem. I'll give it a rest so you can catch up. Have a great weekend guys!


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

Not sure if nik understood my actions,
but felt I would explain as this is getting out of hand.
Alistair made no outward actions against LAMM none...and when nik you confront Alistair he is on the other side of the room..about 50 feet from you. with LAMM right next to you
So not sure if you knew where he was or not.
as for his threats...he made no threat at all towards lamm he simple stated that he will be faceing some hard times in jail when it is known what he did to children...
so not sure if that would change your actions or not...but I thought I would try to nip this in the bud...
because as it happens now...one ore two of us is either dead or leaving the group...it is that simple...not saying it is your fault or my fault or the DMs it is our characters and how we built them...right now the party is divided in two with factions in each of those two groups has thier own agendas..there is no GROUP...we have no leader that everyone in the group will follow so we have that problem as well...so not sure what is going to happen next

Grand Lodge

Nik is getting tired of the name calling and childish issues. He is calling Alistair out on his BS. Alistair wants to kill him, fine. There are consequences. Nik stopped him from being killed for a reason, and Alistair has repeatedly ignored and insulted Nik for those reasons. So, Nik is accepting that Gaedren may die. If Gaedren dies before Tobar is found, then Nik will make an effort to have Alistair join him.

Well, as for leaving the group. Unless Alistair shows some sign of friendship or at least less hostility, no Nik will not associate with him.

So, what is the solution?


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

Alistair likes nik...
our first round of bashing was due to a duel of words in my characters mind...yes the insult fly and it is childish but it is a form of dueling and it is designed to make Nik mad and it worked. That is his way of getting under your skin and making you make mistakes in a combat situation. He finds niks barbs and hits back at Alistair as a good fight and nothing more than that...not friendship but accepting of him...
All was well until nik threatened Alistair with bodily harm after he did nothing at all to Lamm. He has left Lamm alone and has done nothing to him. So when Nik threaten him he took it as request for a duel and he has stepped up and called nik out..

Nik is a good character and is well played as is all of the characters..
the problem is how do we reign in our individual quirks as characters. I do not nor would I want anyone to change there character to suit the party..I like the conflict that comes with the game...this is a situation that has gotten to the point when a character threatens another character and it is gut check time.

Grand Lodge

All of that is fine. Nik does not feel the same and while Nik has tried to play nice, it just keeps going. So, Nik has drawn a line. And Nik is done.


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

Happy Holidays to everyone


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Trying to figure out the map. If we leave the room onto the walkway, there is a walkway above us? Is there anything to the right of the walkway?


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Before we move out, just want to make sure we didn't skip over the magic items. Did you miss my post?


First; I hope everyone had a Happy Memorial Day!!!
Thank you to all those who paid the ultimate price to secure our liberties; to all those who served our country in the past; to the men and women that stand on foreign soil, on or under the seas in defense of our nation today; and to those serving upon the homefront, both in and out of uniform.

Secondly; Nik-Alistair, can your two characters find a way to get along and play nice? If not what is the plan?
And please know this - I like both of you, I want both of you to continue playing, I like the Alistair and Nik characters. This should be fun for everyone.

Trisane - Ophelia pointed out the hatbox with the flies buzzing around it and the lockbox contain magical items. Does this make a difference to you as you lock Gaedren away?

Ophelia/Nik/Trisane -
Upon closer inspection, there is no way to the upper level from this level. The fishery building itself is above the pier you docked at. There is another pier above the side where the ship is docked, it connects to the outside of the docked ship.

Alistair -
Yes, you could crawl through the supports and crossbars under the fishery and this lower level and come out alongside the building and the warehouse next to it.

Grand Lodge

Thanks. The weekend was good, though being stuck at home is getting old already.

As for Nik and Alistair, I like both characters but Nik has been the constant butt of insults and jabs. Even when given something close to positive attitude it is filled with backhanded insults and derision. So, if Alistair continues it, Nik will leave.

Now, what does that mean? I am already prepared with a new character.

Grand Lodge

I doubt Trisane would be inclined to go rummaging about the room for treasures while his nephew's upstairs (to his knowledge) but I'd think there's certainly plenty of time for Ophelia to look around and grab things. I wouldn't deny her that opportunity (since she was in the room before she stepped out to yell at Nik and Alistair). He would use the keys to open things up for her if she wanted. We kinda skipped the searching piece to address the Nik & Alistair attempting to kill each other bit. Trisane's plan was to come back for Lamm once his nephew is safe and loot the room but we can back up if needed. Figured Gaedren'd be secured locked in his own room bagged and gagged. At least long enough for us to deal with the upper level.

How about the slippery walkway directly above where the boat is docked. Is that climbable from Trisane's current position? Alistair's crawlspace idea also seems reasonable if it'll get us up to the front doors quicker (We all know how bad Trisane sucks at climbing).


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

I'm fine with having Ophelia point the items out and Trisane saying we'll come back for them later.


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

I am enjoying this campaign and as most players are want to do they invest time into the character. We each have our own quirks that we invest into the character to make them more interesting. The Nik and Alistair situation is not going to end in any way other than combat.
The threat to Alistair for no reason that the character can see will will not be forgotten and it will drive the two characters to do nothing for each other and put the party as a whole at risk. These things happen in just about every campaign..some are worse and some are far simpler to solve. I for see each of these characters wanting to kill the other..Joe: kind of like Lifter and Jamie's Paladin


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3
Alistair Wellington wrote:
The Nik and Alistair situation is not going to end in any way other than combat.

That's a poor attitude to have. There are several situations that could resolve the issue. As a player (in general, not specifically Alistair), you should be open to options to have your character's viewpoint change for the good of the group. When an opportunity presents itself, use it.

As characters, we started off as a very disparate group, with only a loose tie to each other. We didn't trust or accept each other. Through this ordeal we should be starting to form bonds. That doesn't mean we all have to 100% trust and respect each other, but we should start seeing that trust and/or respect forming. If not, then what's the point? We'd all take our leave after this mission, and be done. Game over.

Grand Lodge

Alistair Wellington wrote:
These things happen in just about every campaign..some are worse and some are far simpler to solve.I for see each of these characters wanting to kill the other

I'll have to disagree with you there as well. Verbally antagonizing the other PCs to point of violence is not as common in my campaign experience. There's a big difference between character conflict as a result of story driven elements and behaving in such a chaotic way that it detracts from the overall story. Ophelia is correct in the understanding that the fundamental mechanic of these kinds of RPGs is to compromise and find a way to work together as a group. Therefore, the "lone wolf/ego maniac/batman/wolverine" archetype personality is not as viable as you might think unless you can make it mesh with the other PCs (not an easy task).

That being said, if Alistair's personality is intended to be this way, that's fine but don't expect him to become any sort of great leader or experience any positive reactions/cooperation/respect from the other PCs/NPCs any time soon (especially the healer). Actively plotting another person's murder (whether friend or foe) is widely considered an Evil act in PF and not very heroic (LE, NE, CE). Perhaps CG may not be the best alignment choice for Alistair. I've put the definitions of good vs evil from the CORE book below for reference.

Good Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

Just my 2 cents on the situation. However you guys choose to resolve it is up to you. I am also enjoying this campaign and would like to see it continue being enjoyed by everyone involved.

Grand Lodge

Well, here it is...

Since the first encounter Alistair has been antagonistic. Since dinner, this antagonistic action has been solidly put on Nik, for no apparent reason other than to "put him off his game", something you do to an advasary. Good natured is one thing but it has been constant and out right rude.

Nik has attempted to go with it. He has tried to play along with it. He has been angered by it. He even tried to just bite his tongue. Nothing changed. Alistair is simply an !@#$%^&

Then he opens his mouth to remind Ophelia that he still needs Lamm alive. And so it continues with the insults and backhanded comments. Nik snaps back. He makes it clear that if Alistair wants to kill Lamm so bad (yes he took no direct action but he clearly showed he felt he and Ophelia were being wronged by Nik's actions) Nik would not stop him. He did not threaten Alistair outright, he threatened Alistair if he wished to pursue his preferred course of action.

This would have all been discussed if Alistair could simply be less of an arrogant jerk and accept that he has pushed too far.

Now, you have said there is no way to resolve this. I disagree completely. I have said that Nik will leave if Alistair continues these points. Notice the "if".

Characters grow, characters change. I have tried to show that in Nik's actions and thoughts. He doesn't like Alistair but he accepts he cannot eliminate him (either by violence or by exile, he doesn't have the authority or the power). He is seeking inner guidance to deal with it.

Also, he has never expressed a desire to kill Alistair. He specifically expressed the opposite. He fears having Alistair around but I am trying to leave openings for growth.

Alistair has shown nothing of that. He has progressively gotten more and more arrogant and aggressive with Nik, and now is actively working out how to get away with murdering him. So, how is this compromise?

So, I will say this again. If Alistair continues to act the way he has towards Nik and does not show any signs of being willing to accept Nik, then I see no other choose. I have an alternate character in mind, but understand I am willing to try to make it work but it needs to be a compromise. Otherwise it will just be Nik leaving and the new character, which sucks.


I must admit that in previous games, character vs character conflict was resolved the same way as any other encounter, with spell and steel, and there were PCs that hated each other. I am as guilty as any of this...HOWEVER,

Pathfinder has tried to build a system based on cohesive parties, where antagonism is minimized if present at all and character vs character hostility is... frowned upon; to the extent that Pathfinder Society (organized play) specifically outlaws it in their code of conduct. While we are not following PFS rules; the conflict between Nik and Alistair has gone too far and it is impacting the game for everyone involved.

I would like to see Nik and Alistair fix this, if that is possible - amicably. There are choices to be made; choices that do not have to lead to an inevitable outcome.... and I feel like the end of every Terminator movie ever... so as long as you aren't suddenly BFF's; find a way to play nice and fix it - and lets move on and have fun!


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

Ophelia: I do know that is is a poor attitude...I just am viewing this as it is...
very little to go with

Trisane: I am sorry that I did not explain my words better and maybe you do understand what I said and maybe not...I meant conflicts between characters...this is not the norm...I have seen worse.

If you look back at my words I started this off trying to be part of the party and get everyone on the same track. It was viewed as an attempt to make everyone a "follower" of mine. The character took this in stride got upset said some words and backtracked and tried to play nice. The character attempted to bring the party together again by way of dinner and in his mind was insulted by nik with the show of disrespect to one that was trying to help the group..The character is not a lone wolf, wolverine, batman type. he is a very social person and enjoys the comforts of life. This has been thrown back at him at almost every turn. This is how I view the characters interaction with the party. Not saying anyone had it out for him just explain how I took the situation...OK The plotting to kill Nik is just as it is intended..he has threaten Alistair twice now there will not be a third time...if nik makes Alistair feel that his life is in danger he will defend himself...only he will do it when he has to defend himself..by law...Alistair will not sneak in and kill him in his sleep...but he will defend himself

Nik: you are right this all started at dinner, with the frown and show of disrespect (in his mind) to someone who was trying be nice to everyone in the group..Alistair got upset and said some words and explained his view on things and he was insulted with names by nik and with threats. He then took the name calling and threat as a challenge...
he apologize for the impression of you being a follower and said two things that were name calling at that time.

Someone said wrote:
I care not for your respect if you give it willy nilly
Someone said wrote:
You are fool if you think that there will be no blood shed tonight

I also at that time backtracked at the end and tried to make amends by calling myself a fool and giving you the chance to save your brother. Then there is more name calling. His judgement is called into question and another minor threat is issued at him. It is here that things get interesting..

Alistair goes on the offensive.belittling nik, pushing his buttons at every sentence..then he tried to make nice again. Then more insults at him. Then as a social person to not tip the staff he was upset and decided to teach nik a lesson about etiquette.Then at the end he even gives nik a compliment about the asking for a dance and some advice.
Then next day starts off with Alistair being nice to everyone and it is returned with dirty looks and scowls. Alistair makes a light joke about tea and not letting things cloud your judgement, nik questions Alistair's bravery.
Alistair did not see it but nik basically threatened him again from behind as nik sat down behind him in the boat.
When Things start off with a bang and the floor dropping out from under trisane..Alistair even tries to put nik in a good mood by telling him to help trisane as he is the only one that can help him with the shark. Alistair tries to help trisane get out of the water and even jumped down to help him and succeeded in driving the alligator away..with no thanks at all mind you (lol) He issues slurs and jokes and insults at trisane as well...it is not just nik...he just happens to be the one that is getting most of them. He even insulted the alligator... Now Alistair again asks nik for help and even used the word please...Even after the insults Alistair sent trisane's way he still tried to make nice.
Still Alistair plays nice with everyone..giving advice and trying to help the other party members...
Then Ophelia openly attacks Lamm...what does nik do...nothing at all not a threat not a mean look even though she has stated she wants justice on him
Alistair makes a comment about lamm getting what he deserves in prison and I have a crossbow pointed at me and more threats.
That was the last straw for Alistair..he has put up with insults being disrespected at dinner being ignored when helps. being called names and just being treated like s~*& by nik. The fact that someone else did attack lamm and not a word other than I need him alive not we but I need him alive. So Alistair went on the offensive again..Calling nik out at every angle he could find. Pushing the buttons. Even with Alistair openly being hostile towards nik..he gave him an out and he tried to get him to take it. When nik back down Alistair told him to never use his sister to get to him...After that he gave nik a complement and wanted to go save the children..not a selfish act mind you. When nik decide he was going to let the rest of the group head on alone and he takes lamm..Alistair called him out on it.
This is how the character saw things...
This is a very abbreviated transcript of event..lol

So this is where we are at.

Because of the interaction that has come to a head between nik and Alistair which both players are at fault not just me I felt at the time that there was no course but to remove one of the characters..
As I have stated Alistair does like nik, he can give insults back.

I am not saying that I am not at fault for my actions nor that my characters way of doing things was correct just stating that I am not alone in this.

I would like to continue this campaign and not see it end.
I will not however change my character. I will be willing to calm down on the barbs and insults but I feel I should not be the only one made to make adjustments...
I am willing to move forward with this and see if it can work its way out...one can hope.

Grand Lodge

Alistair, your are correct you are not alone at the fault of this, but you are unwilling to change. You have said so repeatedly. You feel that Alistair's behavior is appropriate, but I am telling you personally I find it too much. The character shows no sign of being a team player. He insults the other party members for any slight mistake or anything that they say that is different to what Alistair thinks.

I also have no desire to continue this arguement. Nik is simply going to walk away when this is done, or earlier if he oppurtunity comes up. I have made an alternative character. He is a cleric of Iomedae who feels there is honor and glory in battle. He is older but sees himself as an adviser role.

So, it is over.

Of note though, he is a good character (not lawful though) and will not take kindly to outright murder, which seems to be the point that started all this. Alistair didn't simply say there would be bloodshed, he outright said he was committing murder. Not something a good character should be okay with, ever.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3
Alistair Wellington wrote:

I would like to continue this campaign and not see it end.

I will not however change my character. I will be willing to calm down on the barbs and insults but I feel I should not be the only one made to make adjustments...
I am willing to move forward with this and see if it can work its way out...one can hope.

That is a good attitude! Thank you. If you misinterpreted my earlier post as singling you out, that was not my intention.

I think a situation like this may be a con of playing this way. As we have no personal interaction, other than these posts, it is easier for situations to get out of control. If we were all at the table and a problem arose, we could have an ooc discussion and clear up any mistakes, or be aware that actions are having a negative effect on the game/players/etc.

When six or seven posts appear between your actions, it is difficult to address everything that happened and keep things flowing.

GM-Grenfax wrote:
I must admit that in previous games, character vs character conflict was resolved the same way as any other encounter, with spell and steel, and there were PCs that hated each other.

Old D&D was very much a GM vs Player game. In fact, the very first games were seeing how far your character could get before it died, then making a new one and try to push further. The game has evolved since then and changed to be more of a storytelling system. This is especially true with Adventure Paths, which are setup to tell an epic story influenced by the players' actions.

That doesn't mean there can't be conflict between players' characters, or that every character has to like each other. It is generally accepted they will work with each other, though.


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

I am sorry that you are taking nik out but that is your call I HAVE stated that I was willing to adjust his behavior and tone done the jabs and barb. I wish you would read all of my words instead of picking apart the things you want to state.

This was just last night......

Someone said wrote:

I will not however change my character. I will be willing to calm down on the barbs and insults but I feel I should not be the only one made to make adjustments...

That is the problem I am willing to back down and tone the character back but I will not change the character as a whole nor do I feel you should change characters..

as for murder
He is not ok with it but it is what we were ALL going do ...nik might have thought that he was not breaking any laws and only wanted to question him but we were intent on going into someones home to kill him...now is it good or is it just depends on how you view things.
Outright killing someone for no reason at all...well that is plain evil
He feels that the things we were about to do were just and needed to be done,YES it is still murder in his eyes and against the law but it was what needed to be done and in his mind is a just act.

It is what adventures do..they are murders and thieves...we break into someones home...kill them and take their stuff.

Grand Lodge

Alistair Wellington wrote:

as for murder

He is not ok with it but it is what we were ALL going do...

Just to clarify: Trisane is very much a LG character and I feel I've been playing him that way to the best of my ability. In addition to Nik, he has no intention of willfully allowing either Alistair or Ophelia to murder Gaedren Lamm. He knows that that was their plan all along but chose to accept that he will likely need their help so he kept quiet provided they followed his lead (personality compromise). Part of the reason he locked Lamm in the room was not only to end the argument between Nik & Alistair but also to prevent his pre-mature demise at the hands of his seemingly murderous companions.

Alistair Wellington wrote:
It is what adventures do..they are murders and thieves...we break into someones home...kill them and take their stuff.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was under the impression we were to create good/heroic characters for this AP campaign.

Alistair Wellington wrote:
I will not however change my character.

By PF definition, Good behavior seems to be in the minority so far. If the scales don't tip toward good in the near future, do we want to take this story in a darker, more evil direction with the characters to accommodate the norm (duels/deception/murder/thievery)?

P.S. This is actually a serious question to the group. Evil is certainly more fun to play. I have some morally gray characters of my own I could throw in the mix.

Grand Lodge

Let me start by saying that I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant. You said in the same statement you were not willing to change character and were willing to adjust.

If you are willing to adjust then we can see how it goes.

As for the rest, let’s take a look at things.

First let’s be clear on what murder is. Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of another person. Person, we will define simply as sentient natural beings (undead, aberrations, non-native outsiders, fey, etc. are not natural). So, this is the basis for what I am to say follows. Also, remember this is all supposed to be from the characters perspective.

Alistair Wellington wrote:

as for murder

He is not ok with it but it is what we were ALL going do

Nik had no intention on committing murder. He accepted that blood would be spilled and killing Lamm or others may be necessary, but that is not even close to murder. I also do not suspect that Trisane was intending to commit murder. Ophelia, yeah but she has stayed mostly quiet on the subject and she said she would stay her killing for me to find out what I needed to know and left it there.

”Alistair Wellington” wrote:
...nik might have thought that he was not breaking any laws and only wanted to question him but we were intent on going into someones home to kill him...now is it good or is it just depends on how you view things.

Again, you put words and actions to Nik that were not his. And, Nik has never said he was against breaking the law. He had no issue with entering the place illegally, with assaulting Lamm and his men, but regardless of legality, planning murder is evil.

Now all of this is a difference of view maybe, though I feel my view of good is more appropriate. I can say that any and all of my GOOD characters will have this view. The opinions of what constitutes necessary killing may vary, but they will never be willing to accept the planning of a person’s death without being willing to seek other options as well. And I plan to play a good character again, because I like to play heroic characters. Which leads to the real reason I am responding to this.

”Alistair Wellington” wrote:
It is what adventures do..they are murders and thieves...we break into someones home...kill them and take their stuff.

On the surface, from the metagame/player view of how the GAME works, this is a somewhat accurate way of viewing things. But let’s look at things in the way we are supposed to be looking at them, from the character’s view of the STORY. Because we are playing characters in a story, a structures story with rules to follow, but it is still a story about characters.

Evil and the more psychotic neutral characters do this, that is true. And adventurers do as well to some degree, but this is a larger campaign of good vs. evil and it is my belief that we are not adventurers. We are supposed to be heroes. The game pits good vs. evil, there is a whole system revolving around it. Since we are fighting evil it is implied we are good. We also, using the system revolving around good and evil, choose good. So, I would say we, as characters should be above simple adventurers.

Now do not take this as saying you cannot play a character that has a more adventurer attitude. Heck, play an evil necromancer for all I give a care. Just do not expect me to have a good character get along with an obvious evil acting character. Nik and Alistair didn’t get along, okay. But if Alistair has the same attitude and plans with another new character, then the issue will continue.

So, I ask all of us to chime in on this, GM especially. Is this supposed to be a story with characters acting based on the concept of good vs. evil, and those that are good not just accepting that they must kill every opposition and possibly try not to kill when possible? Or is this a story of adventurers out to simply loot and kill so they can win the game? It is a question of expectations I think. Maybe mine seem to be different.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Ophelia is Neutral for a reason. She has no problem killing Lamm. To her that would be serving justice, and she would be following the tenets of her god. Beyond that, she would be leaning towards the good side. She won't randomly kill people, or kill people for no reason. She straddles that line of good and evil because she is willing to take a life, giving the right circumstances.

Ophelia is fully aware that Nik and Trisane are against killing Lamm. She's tried and failed in the past, and knows she needs help just getting to Lamm. In essence she is using everyone to fulfill her goal of revenge. I fully expect a (verbal) confrontation at that time, how it works out, I don't know yet. She will not be interested in killing anyone that helped her here, even if they stand in her way.

As far as playing EVIL characters, I'm not a big fan. It tends to degenerate quickly, and it really doesn't interest me.


Male HP:11 AC:16 T:14 FF:12 F:+0 R:+6 W:+0 Perc:+4 Init:+10 Rapier +6, 1d6+0 CMB:+1 CMD:+15 Human Swashbuckler 1

My last statement was meant as a OOC comment not mean as alistair's view on things...just my two cent thingy...it had not bearing on the current situation...at least I intended it that way...
I was stating that as a "metagame/player" view of things not actual feelings of it...Nik got it I think...

just FYI

Someone said wrote:
I would be just as selfish if I were in your shoes...I can not promise anything but I will try my best to give you what it is you seek. If we are able to you should be allowed to find out your answers. I can not in good faith condemn your brother to death because you and I do not see eye to eye.

Alistair backed off wanting to killing lamm in the beginning for Nik and he did not attempt to kill Lamm when he was down and out at his feet...unarmed and defenseless...so wanting to kill someone is one thing doing the actual act is another...so remember to keep those two things separate..make mental plans to do such a thing is different than actually doing it...LOL

I do not think this is a evil group just....morally diverse?? if there is such a thing...

Grand Lodge

So, Alistair, a good character, accepts that he will have to commit murder, the planned completely in advance, without being willing to attempt other actions?

Not accept that he may have to kill, because as Nik said, and as I have said, that is the reality of the game and world. But the completely unashamedly wanton murder of a person. This you view as the actions of a good character.

Also, I will point out, Alistair never said he would not murder Lamm.

Alistair Wellington wrote:
I would be just as selfish if I were in you shoes... I cannot promise anything but I will try my best to give you what it is you seek.

This is no way says that Alistair has given up his plan to kill Lamm, he just says he will try not to kill him so Nik can get his information. It was not until Lamm was knocked out that he showed by action and word that he would not kill him then.

And yes, thinking and doing are two different things, this is true. Planning, actively planning, and implicating others without discussing their opinions first is also a far cry closer to doing then thinking. So, based on Alistair's words and actions which do you think this falls into? I would say he was well beyond thinking it.

And desire is another thing that is different from the actual deed, correct. But again, it was not just him voicing his desire, he was actively planning and became upset and disrespectful of another character for saying it was wrong. So, based on Alistair's words and actions, again which was he doing?

I accept that Nik and Alistair will not get along. We are both at fault there I believe. But, I fear that your style of play and mine do not get along. The new character that I am planning to try is also a good character and would have voiced the exact same issues. He would have been opposed to murder. And any good character I play will feel he same.

I am not saying you are wrong in your opinion and style, I just don't feel it matches what I am looking for in my fellow players.

So, I ask again, is it your opinion that Alistair is acting in a GOOD manner? Is it your intention to continue to plan on killing without considering other options (at least in character)? Is it your plan to take any opposition in actions and words, even from another character as a challenge that leads to insults and disrespect because you feel that it is a duel of sort and they are now an advasary?

If this is your intention, then I will consider what I want to do in the future.

Oh, and to Ophelia...

Ophelia Wintrish wrote:
As far as playing EVIL characters, I'm not a big fan. It tends to degenerate quickly, and it really doesn't interest me.

Degenerates quickly you say... As opposed to the current situation? Sorry, had to do it.


I for one am not looking to find fault or assign any blame - as GM, that is all on me alone. So, moving forward we are officially putting past miscommunications behind us; and starting fresh together, cooperatively.

I do not want to do an evil campaign; I like noble characters - why I specifically stated I wanted heroic characters that were non-evil. You do not need to be beacons of virtue... just willing to work for the greater good. Korvosa is a city of laws and what is legal, what is moral, and what is just may not always align as the characters would like. Those internal conflicts are when the nobility of the characters will need to shine...

So, let us return to Korvosa, to the fishery that Gaedren Lamm is calling home, on a dark night where four strangers must decide what price they will pay for justice or revenge and what those ideas might look like... whatever happens, their choices will bind them together.

Grand Lodge

OKAY.


A quick heads up -
I will be taking a vacation starting June 7, and will not have internet or phone connectivity until Tuesday the 14th.

It isn't that I am ignoring anyone; I just won't be able to respond until then.

If anyone has anything urgent, let me know before, otherwise, I will continue on the 14th.

Grand Lodge

Enjoy vacation. See you when you come back.


Female Human (Varisian) Sorcerer 3

Hope you have a good time!

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