GM Chyro |
You (your GM :P) did so earlier.
How was your holiday?
Las Lajas |
Welcome back.
Okay as for the plan. Two options:
Option 1.
- We get some reach weapons from the weapons room
- We fight him as normal with reach weapons
- Las will try spittle on him to stop him from flying
- Las will try and disarm it, and Joseph can use the Mage Hand to pull the weapon away.
2. We try and trick the devil - Using Gali's clothes maybe Joesph can pretend to be Gali and order the demon to let us pass?
Las Lajas |
Trying to move things along...
1. We'll arm up in the weapons room. Then we'll proceed to Gali's room and check to make sure he's dead. Should be obvious if he's breathing.
2. Want to verify that Joseph can use Mage Hand to slide away a reach weapon once its been disarmed.
3. Then we'll form up in the throne room.
I'm guessing this whole process has taken 10 minutes form the time we broke off combat?
Las Lajas |
I was actually waiting to see if Joesph and others were in agreement with the plan. We might need grease so I don't want Joesph to burn up his 1st level slots unless we're sure this is a good idea. I'm throwing out a lot of stuff to do, but I am not trying to take control of anyone's NPC. Before we'd go through with it, we'd have to talk about what we were going to ask Gali to do because the spell isn't going to guarantee he won't attack everyone else.
As an FYI, the PRD says, "Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed." So I read that as Joesph will know if the spell works on Gali or not.
GM Chyro |
In self defense, i'm not quite an encyclopedia of the PRD.
:)
I believe he was at -5 HP.
Las Lajas |
In self defense, i'm not quite an encyclopedia of the PRD.
Neither am I, I had to look it up to be sure :)
That's why I love PbP vs F2F.
Ting Tang |
of the two options I like #1, not sure Joseph would trick the creature, and I don't like the idea of leaving it behind us. lets figure out how to kill it.
so are we standing in the doorway and throwing things at the devil until it comes to us?
GM Chyro |
The cantrip Mage Hand can lift up to 5lbs.
A guisarme weighs 12 lbs.
Las Lajas |
True, but you can push a or drag something up to 5 times your max weight. So if was on the ground, we'd only need to slide it away from the devil
GMs call on that one.
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.
GM Chyro |
That is the character's physical effort.
But this is about a cantrip of magical force, able to lift just 5 lbs.
Las Lajas |
That's a good question. I think we'd rather get it to come to us.
Going back to #2, Joesph has +11 on Disguise and +9 on bluff. He might be able to fool it. Plus, he's heard Gali speak, plus we'd have Gali's clothes. So maybe that gets a really good circumstance modifier, maybe more if we can interrogate Gali as to specifics about the creature and the base and things that happened in the past.
Joesph could pretend we've been caught and he is taking us below?? The true nature of the bluff would depend on what we learn from Gali. For example, does Gali ever go below? If so, how does he cross the gap? If Gali were forbidden to go through the doors, then this wouldn't work.
Other options -
3. Maybe we try and ransom Gali's life? Negotiate for safe passage through the hallway for the rest of the day in exchange?
4. I could turn invisible and have four minutes to try and slip past him. I'd have to jump the gap. Hunh. Of course the downside is that if there's another encounter, or a trap, I would be on my own.
Just figured out why they use a Host devil with a trip weapon. It must be because with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon and a grapple, it would be extremely effective at stopping people from getting past it.
5. We could try and charm Gali, but casters usually have good Will saves and Joseph's DC is only 13, so Joseph might burn through all his spells before Gali was charmed.
If we fight, we could make use of Joseph's Antagonize and Mirror Image. That might buy us more time so long as Joesph doesn't get hit. But if the creature ignores Joesph, Mirror Image is n't going to help us.
Las Lajas |
That is the character's physical effort.
But this is about a cantrip of magical force, able to lift just 5 lbs.
Right, I was reasoning that the physics of PF say that if you lift A, you can drag 5xA. So the spell can only lift 5lbs, but it could move push 25 along the ground since the spell does let you push things without lifting them.
As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction
GM Chyro |
He has used 1 mirror image, he's got 1 slot left.
6. Nuke the site from orbit......
The spell doesn't mention able to pull or push, nor that it follows the same ways of pushing and pulling like a PC does/is allowed.
But to propel it, the object needs to be lifted.
It'd be a very powerful cantrip if it could, can you imagine a mage hand pushing a 25lbs rock off a roof?
Las Lajas |
So Gali wasn't using Mage Hand to move the tapestries without actually lifting them?
Ting Tang |
Going back to #2, Joesph has +11 on Disguise and +9 on bluff...
3. Maybe we try and ransom Gali's life? Negotiate for safe passage through the hallway for the rest of the day in exchange?4. I could turn invisible...
#4 scares me because you would be on your own,
#2 makes me nervous because I don't totally trust Joseph, well, at least his alter ego,that's me not ting, I have previous game experience that ting doesn't have ;)
#3 why ransom him, lets make him send the devil away and we let him live, though ting wouldn't kill a man like that, someone else would have to.
I say we throw crap at the devil through the door until he leaves or comes after us then we jump him coming through the door.
GM Chyro |
Gali used mage hand to rustle small parts of the tapestries, just enough to spook people.
Ting, whatever are you talking about? Joseph is compl~~~~~~etely trustworthy.
Las Lajas |
It'd be a very powerful cantrip if it could, can you imagine a mage hand pushing a 25lbs rock off a roof?
No more so than a spell like mending or prestidigitation, IMO.
I think it would really depend on the type of rock, the type of roof, etc as noted in the text on dragging/pushing stuff. A perfectly round rock on a perfectly smooth roof that was steep? I personally don't see a problem. A flat rock on a flat rough roof, not going to happen because the text tells us that circumstances can change the weight you can push/drag.
If Gali was using the Mage Hand to move make tapestries flutter, that would suggests it's just 5 lbs of force that you can direct in any direction. In other words, Gali doesn't have to be able to actually life the entire tapestry, just 5lbs of it, which could lift a corner or make a lump.
When I GM, it is sometimes a challenge to adjudicate these 0 level spells. On one hand, I like to encourage the players using them creatively. There's another side of me that says its a 0 level spell, so it should have less utility than a 1st level spell. Then there's a third side that says it's kind of cool if, in a certain situation, a 0 level spell could be more useful than a 9th level spell.
Honestly though, if prestidigitation were a real spell, an entire mansion could be cleaned by one person with a 0 level cantrip. Pathfinder/D&D can get silly if we really thought about what life would bel like with all these 0 level spells. Create water? The entire fire department would be Adepts with Create Water spells.
Las Lajas |
Would be nice to have Brani and Joseph weigh in.
GM Chyro |
Votes on approach:
Brallenera [Whatever, just kill it]
Joseph [Pending]
Las Lajas [Pending]
Ting Tang [Throw stuff & hope it comes for you]
Las Lajas |
Trickery would be Joesph disguising oneself as Gali. Most creatures don't have Sense Motive, so the Bluff part of the plan wouldn't be a problem. The Disguise part would be more difficult.
What we really should do is drag Gali outside the temple and interrogate him. We need to know if there's a way to make the devil stand down. Gali should also be able to tell us what's behind the doors. With Gali eliminated, we could even spend a night here and recoup our spells and abilities.
So my vote is drag the unconscious Gali out of the room, tie his hands, and wake him up. Joseph could elect to burn off his 1st level spells and try and charm, or we just use Intimidate.
Las Lajas |
@GM - are you going to bot Joseph, and if so, would he go along with the plan to interrogate Gali?
GM Chyro |
I imagine he wouldn't mind.
It's just 1 charge from his healing wand.
Las Lajas |
Las was going to use his smelling salts.
That way if he tries to cast, he immediately goes unconscious after the spell, correct?
GM Chyro |
He'd go KO again after having cast a spell, yes.
Las Lajas |
Well, in the absence of any objections, I'll get it going.
Las Lajas |
I'll ask the others to throw in Aid Another checks on Diplo just in case. Can't hurt.
@GM - Can Joesph also do an about face and help on Diplo?
GM Chyro |
His credibility isn't good after that intimidate.
He'll be sitting this one out.
Let's see what Brallenera and Ting roll.
Las Lajas |
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
Unfortunately, you can't separate them in Pathfinder. So you can't have someone who is both attractive in appearance but lacking in leadership. Back in the days of 2nd Addition AD&D, Unearthed Arcana tried to separate physical looks "comeliness" from personalty "charisma." But it never by 3rd addition, D&D went back to combining them.
What would Las guess Gali's charisma to be? More charismatic than Joseph?
GM Chyro |
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Still, an ogre, who is 10/10 ugly, can still have high charisma, and ability to lead.
Darnit, now i want to make an NPC enemy for homebrew, who embodies just that.
Just saying, since if we follow that by the letter, that would mean every person with high charisma is a model with sex appeal. :)
You'd not get a score as a knowledge. He'd be well versed enough for social talk, if need be.
Lord Joseph Wraitheart |
Gali used mage hand to rustle small parts of the tapestries, just enough to spook people.
Ting, whatever are you talking about? Joseph is compl~~~~~~etely trustworthy.
sometimes I think the character would be better in a homegame and not pfs due to the alter ego.
Though you should all be fine as, these creatures, are devils and the deity he follows hates devils.
Lord Joseph Wraitheart |
PRD wrote:Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.Unfortunately, you can't separate them in Pathfinder. So you can't have someone who is both attractive in appearance but lacking in leadership. Back in the days of 2nd Addition AD&D, Unearthed Arcana tried to separate physical looks "comeliness" from personalty "charisma." But it never by 3rd addition, D&D went back to combining them.
What would Las guess Gali's charisma to be? More charismatic than Joseph?
3rd edition, as I saw in the Forgotten Realms guide, had a separate skill called "Innuendo" for the more...ahem...physical side of diplomacy.
Las Lajas |
Just saying, since if we follow that by the letter, that would mean every person with high charisma is a model with sex appeal. :)
Yup. That's exactly why AD&D tried to separate the two because of exactly what you said. As far as a high charisma monster, sex appeal is not really defined in the game, and is not going to cross creature-types. But I imagine humans could still tell which of two ogres had a higher charisma attribute based on appearance.
Nevertheless the Pathfinder rules are full of inconsistencies and logic gaps.
And if you look at it, all the attributes have the same problem. Look at Wisdom
Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.
The game does not allow a person to have a high degree of willpower, but no common sense or awareness. In Pathfinder, if you have one of these qualities....you have all of these qualities.
The granularity that allows a person to have one aspect of an attribute high but others low, doesn't exist unless you house rule it, which you can't do in PFS. So physical attractiveness within one's creature type is directly tied to charisma score, for better or for worse. Things like this turn off some GMs.
Las Lajas |
@team
Honestly, I don't know that Gali is going to be of any help. Joesph could burn a charm on Gali, but it doesn't sound like Gali is going to be able to talk the devil into letting us pass, especially consider the GM has it "watching" from afar.
So we have two options:
1. We fight.
2. We try to bluff past the devil using Gali's clothes and a disguise.
I think we probably have about even odds either way. If we fight, then we have to make sure we are smart about it. Remember, the devil can trip and grapple and has combat reflexes.
Speaking of the devil's grapple, if Joseph has two grease spells, he can cast them on Brallenera and Ting and that will make it really hard for the devil to grapple them.
I'm fine either way, but Las is not the type to stand and die if the battle goes south in a hurry.
@Joseph, I think we had a shield scroll from Gali, can you use that?
Las Lajas |
Since I'm sure Bri wants to fight...and Joseph doesn't like devils...then let's get set up and fight.
1. Finish healing Ting and Bri
2. Joseph may want to UMD the scroll of shield...if not, Las will try it.
3. Grease up Ting and Bri
4. I'll mx up my last extract for invisibility.
5. Decide which reach weapons you guys are going to use. Joesph has mending so that can fix any of the weapons if they need repair.
5. Knock out Gali and tie him up.
6 File into the throne room.
My understanding of the rules is that the devil has to make a decision at the end of its turn about whether its wielding the reach weapon or not. If it's not wielding the reach weapon then it can't make AoO's with it. If it is wielding the reach weapon, then it can't make AoO's with its claws.
GM Chyro |
As a free action, it could let go with 1 hand, switching to claw attacks, but losing the means for reach attacks.
Same vice versa, but still limited to that 1 free action per round thing.
Las Lajas |
There have been several Rules questions about someone using a longspear and a spiked gauntlet. The question was weather that combo allowed someone to threaten both long and short. The answer was no. Either you're wielding the two-handed weapon or your not wielding the weapon and you hands are essentially free. So at the end of the devil's turn it has to make a decision about what it will wield with respect to AoO's and it can't threaten with both ranseur and claw, it has to pick one.
The only exception is if you have Improved Unarm Attack feat (e.g. a monk or brawler) because in that case you can use your feet and knees.
Now, I have a ranger and I've used the free-action switching grips thing to use my bow during my attack, then hold the bow as in improvised weapon after my attack so that I threaten for AoOs because my bow doesn't threaten anyway. The GM HATED that and essentially refuse to allow me to do it. So rather than make a big stink, I got around it by buying a cestus. For whatever reason, the GM was fine with that.
Ting Tang |
5. Decide which reach weapons you guys are going to use. Joesph has mending so that can fix any of the weapons if they need repair
the weapons we found were: Halberds, spears and swords, so no reach weapons, the best we can do is throw the spears at him. Or take away his reach weapon and use it on him.
GM Chyro |
Have at it with your preparations.
Good night guys :)