End Of Discussions: An epic fight between martials and casters

Game Master ElMustacho

Stop arguing about power difference between classes and prove it in this arena!


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@Goddity:
Yes! We should absolutely start the FTDADC. I'll be the president, since I was the first to record that wonderful statistic, and you can be the vice president. :)


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

MendedWall12 only:
I might have spoken too soon. I just got a spell in. Wait and see. But if it doesn't work, then I'll be happy to join.


Goddity only:
Yeah, sitting where I'm sitting, I doubt it will work. You never know though. :P


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

MendedWall12 only:
It probably won't work. But you never know...

I could have something up my sleeve.


The battle is finished. The winner is Megan!
I'm really not sure about how Megan managed to survive before level 6. But whatever.


Probably by staying in cozy temples and monasteries and talking about philosophy without anyone trying to set her on fire.
Not everyone adventures for a living. Especially those who can only handle one encounter per day.


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

Does this mean I can look at the spoilers now?

MendedWall12 only:
We can start our club now!


Goddity wrote:

Does this mean I can look at the spoilers now?

** spoiler omitted **

Club officially started.

I do think Jiggy is absolutely right, that all that was proved here, is that the only way to "overcome" the disparity of caster power is to bring along a high level caster. A deva with Holy Word, certainly, in my mind constitutes a high level caster. So, even though the "martial" won the fight, I still think this arena continues to prove the truth of the C/MD.


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

I like to think of it as: no matter what happens we all learned something.

I'm also of the opinion that in another 5 or so fights, both sides will be out of tricks and it will get more interesting. For example, I don't think anyone was expecting bewildering koan. I wasn't. The next caster will probably take steps to prevent a repeat of that. The next martial might have something completely different to try.


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

Oh hey, you know what would've made a good tactic? Readying an action on your third prep turn.


Goddity wrote:
Oh hey, you know what would've made a good tactic? Readying an action on your third prep turn.

Like what? Ready an action to...


Yeah, it does appear that the most effective martial tactics are definitely not the sort of thing that brings the word "martial" to mind.

Interestingly enough, the holy word and the bewildering koan were pretty much redundant. The way the battle was set up, I expect it would have gone almost exactly the same without bewildering koan.
It also would have been fine without holy word. No coup de grace, but few casters would survive more than a few turns of angelic power attacking. In fact, my strategy had to be able to function without holy word, because I didn't know what alignment my enemy would be.

Also, I created this character with a group battle in mind. I expected Megan and her angelic companion to have to incapacitate two or three casters while her martial allies charged up and beated them to a pulp. That sort of battle might have had a more martially feel to it.


MendedWall12 wrote:
Goddity wrote:
Oh hey, you know what would've made a good tactic? Readying an action on your third prep turn.
Like what? Ready an action to...

It was specifically not allowed by the OP. Although casting Contingent Action might be interesting, if allowed.


Avoron wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
Goddity wrote:
Oh hey, you know what would've made a good tactic? Readying an action on your third prep turn.
Like what? Ready an action to...
It was specifically not allowed by the OP. Although casting Contingent Action might be interesting, if allowed.

It's allowed, but it's 1 minute casting time. It got errataed into oblivion. Limited wishing it works.

Sincerely I was expecting bewildering koan at a certain point, but of course not an astral deva. The magic item isn't even supposed to summon it (caster level 13 suggests SM VII, which is the maximum a standard paladin can aim to). But of course it's legal.


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

I feel no shame in losing that. It did change one thing though. I did not think that skills would be at all important in this. Clearly, I was wrong. Who's next?


Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
Avoron wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
Goddity wrote:
Oh hey, you know what would've made a good tactic? Readying an action on your third prep turn.
Like what? Ready an action to...
It was specifically not allowed by the OP. Although casting Contingent Action might be interesting, if allowed.

It's allowed, but it's 1 minute casting time. It got errataed into oblivion. Limited wishing it works.

Sincerely I was expecting bewildering koan at a certain point, but of course not an astral deva. The magic item isn't even supposed to summon it (caster level 13 suggests SM VII, which is the maximum a standard paladin can aim to). But of course it's legal.

Yeah, a lot of the most powerful options come from combining two separate abilities, each having been made without the other in mind.

As for Contingent Action, it can also be duplicated by Shadow Evocation at a lower level than Limited Wish, just as soon as we can wrap our minds around how to run a quasi-real readied action.


So where do we go from here? Jiggy, want to create a caster for a higher level fight? Or should we drop back a few levels and maybe go 6th level all Paizo 2v2? I'd certainly make either a caster or a martial for that particular bout, if Goddity and Avoron were up for another go... Otherwise it might be time to just get the word out to others for recruiting purposes. I'll probably bump the recruitment thread on Monday during Central "business" hours. :)


I'll make whatever is needed to complete a team; I have no particular preference.


I'd rather prefer having new players together with the previous ones. Just to be sure we'll have different styles and different (initial) points of views.


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

I would volunteer to play Castey Hexey again because I didn't actually get to show off any of my abilities, but you've all been over my sheet by now. 6th level 2v2, eh? Which side would you want me to play?


Totally forgot to bump this today, but I had a rather busy day at work. I certainly hope the arena isn't finished. Aren't there any worthy warriors and wizards out in the realms who want to put their mettle/metal to the test?

@Goddity, whichever side you prefer. I'm happy creating a caster or martial at level 6 with all Paizo printed material available. :)


I feel like we've lost momentum here... Might be the arena closes after two matches with one caster win and one "martial who brought along a high level caster" win? Say it ain't so!!!


Goddity is too large for your puny pronouns Quantum Singularity Mad Scientist

It ain't so! Now where can we get people from... Would it be considered rude to locate threads full of people who like making overpowered builds and talking them all into coming over here?


No, it's only a matter of how we propose it. People should also be ready to defend their point of view with stuff done, not with just words. I usually ignore comments of people that prove nothing they say.


I've been lurking and thinking about participating.

One of the issues I think you face is the large number of combinations of formats and levels.

A person thinking about a character doesn't really know what level / rule set to target if they want to find a dance partner.


JoshB wrote:

I've been lurking and thinking about participating.

One of the issues I think you face is the large number of combinations of formats and levels.

A person thinking about a character doesn't really know what level / rule set to target if they want to find a dance partner.

Stop lurking and start fighting!! I think you'll find that if you find a certain combination that you are intrigued with, many of those that already fought would be happy to make a character to match. I know I would!!! :)


Have you tried some low level duels? (Like third level wizard vs fighter or somesuch)?


Steve Geddes wrote:
Have you tried some low level duels? (Like third level wizard vs fighter or somesuch)?

Not yet, but I'd be up for that and I'd play martial or caster, whatever the opponent(s) needed to make it a go.


I guess it's time to make another fight.


Yeah, like I said, I'm game for whatever. You all just tell me what level, what restrictions, if any, and whether you want me to be a martial or a caster, and I'll start rolling something up. :) Goddity, Avoron, Jiggy? You out there? Want to go two on two?


I am out here.

I'm up for anything, but seeing how we've had two solid weeks of people saying "I'm up for anything," let's set something a bit more concrete.

Let's go with MendedWall's earlier suggestion: level 6, all paizo.

I'll make a martial.

Assume 1v1, but if two more people make characters by the time we're ready to start, then it can be 2v2.


Fine. After this fight we'll test higher levels, where casters are supposed to be "unstoppable"; we'll either bust that myth or confirm it.
However, from what I read in these battles and builds, it's optimization that won fights, not classes. Still we have small amount of data.


Okay, level 6 all paizo caster comin' right up. I should have things squared away by tomorrow afternoon. :)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
However, from what I read in these battles and builds, it's optimization that won fights, not classes.

Not true. My wizard was decidedly (and deliberately) un-optimized. Didn't take a specialty school, never found any magic items as loot or available for purchase, wasn't even made exclusively for combat. The fighter he beat was far more optimized (and even specialized against the known opponent, while my wizard was not).

The only thing true to both fights was that the character with access to the highest-level spellcasting won. There was a weird cross-class bleeding of that access to magic, but it's still more true that it's a contest of magic than that it's a contest of optimization.


It's an optimization contest; it's just that spellcasting is the optimal solution to the vast majority of problems.

To be fair, a straight-up bewildering koan build could easily crush the vast majority of casters of level 8 or below, no angelic companion necessary.

Will this be the character I make? Only time will tell.


Jiggy wrote:
Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
However, from what I read in these battles and builds, it's optimization that won fights, not classes.

Not true. My wizard was decidedly (and deliberately) un-optimized. Didn't take a specialty school, never found any magic items as loot or available for purchase, wasn't even made exclusively for combat. The fighter he beat was far more optimized (and even specialized against the known opponent, while my wizard was not).

The only thing true to both fights was that the character with access to the highest-level spellcasting won. There was a weird cross-class bleeding of that access to magic, but it's still more true that it's a contest of magic than that it's a contest of optimization.

More or less. Your tactic was far more optimal than the other.


Just wanted to pop in and say that some things have come up and I won't have the time this afternoon that I thought. I'll still create a caster, but it probably won't be until this weekend, or even next Tuesday. Sorry for the delay.


Are you ready?


Sorry! No, and in fact it might be another week before I get something put together. Real life stuff is bogging down at the moment. I won't bore you with the details.


Jiggy wrote:
Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
However, from what I read in these battles and builds, it's optimization that won fights, not classes.

Not true. My wizard was decidedly (and deliberately) un-optimized. Didn't take a specialty school, never found any magic items as loot or available for purchase, wasn't even made exclusively for combat. The fighter he beat was far more optimized (and even specialized against the known opponent, while my wizard was not).

The only thing true to both fights was that the character with access to the highest-level spellcasting won. There was a weird cross-class bleeding of that access to magic, but it's still more true that it's a contest of magic than that it's a contest of optimization.

He couldn't have been that specialized against wizards if he lost to the simple tactic of Fly + Greater Invisibility. Like seriously, the entire fight was just the wizard slamming Magic Missile while the fighter wasted his time spamming Perception checks with nothing else to do. I wouldn't really call that a highly optimised martial that specialised himself against beating a Wizard.

The issue is, its actually pretty hard for your average martial to handle invisible opponents without specifically optimising himself to do so. You could be a ranged Paladin, with See Invisibility to and then call it a day, but beyond that, flight + method of dealing with Invisibility usually requires high feat and/or level investment, by which time the wizard has moved on to better and scarier tactics.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ginganinja wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Caster-Martial Discussion DM wrote:
However, from what I read in these battles and builds, it's optimization that won fights, not classes.

Not true. My wizard was decidedly (and deliberately) un-optimized. Didn't take a specialty school, never found any magic items as loot or available for purchase, wasn't even made exclusively for combat. The fighter he beat was far more optimized (and even specialized against the known opponent, while my wizard was not).

The only thing true to both fights was that the character with access to the highest-level spellcasting won. There was a weird cross-class bleeding of that access to magic, but it's still more true that it's a contest of magic than that it's a contest of optimization.

He couldn't have been that specialized against wizards if he lost to the simple tactic of Fly + Greater Invisibility. Like seriously, the entire fight was just the wizard slamming Magic Missile while the fighter wasted his time spamming Perception checks with nothing else to do. I wouldn't really call that a highly optimised martial that specialised himself against beating a Wizard.

He had dust of appearance, knowledge of my starting position, and haste to give him enough movement to get in range and use the dust in a single turn. (In fact, I suggested the starting distance specifically so that the martials would have the possibility of reaching the casters in the first round.)

But he lost initiative, and was incapable of ever doing anything to come back. He lost with a single d20 roll.

Quote:
The issue is, its actually pretty hard for your average martial to handle invisible opponents without specifically optimising himself to do so. You could be a ranged Paladin, with See Invisibility to and then call it a day,

Note that the fight in question was specifically fighter versus wizard. What would you have done differently in the fighter's build? Something that you would "call a highly optimized martial that specialized himself against beating a wizard" (at 7th level). What should he have done?

Quote:
but beyond that, flight + method of dealing with Invisibility usually requires high feat and/or level investment, by which time the wizard has moved on to better and scarier tactics.

That's kind of the point.

EDIT: Also, what I was saying in the post you replied to was pointing out not just how specialized he was, but how big of a GAP in specialization there was. He built his whole character around this one fight, while my wizard was built like he was planning to do some generalized adventuring afterward. I beat a specialized opponent using only what I would have already had on hand anyway.


I'll add to what Jiggy said with the knowledge that I did everything in my power to make sure the fighter got the best initiative bonus, because I knew that I needed to win initiative to even have a chance. That a fighter built specifically to deal with an invisible flying opponent (which is what I assumed would be the tactic going in) got beat simply because she lost initiative absolutely proves Jiggy's point. Terylinlara was specifically built to make sure the wizard couldn't get away, and he got away. Now, granted, I was stuck with only Core Rulebook options, and there are some options out there that would have benefited her, but in the end, Jiggy is exactly right. She was built to get the jump on a wizard, and didn't get the jump. That I forgot to buy a simple magic item that could have absorbed magic missiles, in the end, didn't really effect the outcome. Once she lost initiative, it was over, and I knew it. When I saw that initiative dice roll, my stomach and my heart sank. I actually had a real physical reaction to seeing that roll.


Quote:
Also, what I was saying in the post you replied to was pointing out not just how specialized he was, but how big of a GAP in specialization there was. He built his whole character around this one fight, while my wizard was built like he was planning to do some generalized adventuring afterward. I beat a specialized opponent using only what I would have already had on hand anyway.

I'm pointing out that you are/were underselling yourself. You give the impression that this martial was highly optimised to beat the wizard, while you, yourself, was entirely unoptimised for this fight, and did no preparation, and then mention in an earlier post that you had specific contingencies in play for dust of appearance (being Hold Person ---> CDG) or immunity to Magic Missile (Necklace of Fireballs) meanwhile the extremely optimised martial had a build that 100% relied on the wizard not picking up a +init familiar and/or winning a single dice roll which would determine if it crashed and burned or had a chance at winning.

Like, I get that a caster really should be beating a martial, purely because martials really need to optimise themselves just to overcome roadblocks such as flying opponents along with invisible ones, but the point of my earlier post was illustrating that you both underrated your own build and overhyped the fighter you fought, and yet had a very different attitude strictly after the fight, where you very much gave the impression that the fighter had no chance, regardless as to whether he won or lost init.

Still wouldn't mind seeing how a Martial with See Invis would work against a caster, but at this point I think that its already obvious that if martials have only a limited amount of specific class/archetype combinations that can handle a caster, then nothing further really needs to be said.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ginganinja wrote:
I'm pointing out that you are/were underselling yourself. You give the impression that this martial was highly optimised to beat the wizard, while you, yourself, was entirely unoptimised for this fight, and did no preparation, and then mention in an earlier post that you had specific contingencies in play for dust of appearance (being Hold Person ---> CDG) or immunity to Magic Missile (Necklace of Fireballs)

You misunderstand. Those weren't contingencies in case he brought XYZ to the fight, I was just chatting about which of my other spells/items I might have used if circumstances had been different. Those were there for him, they were there for all the other things I might encounter in an average adventuring day (AoE damage for swarms, hold person for things that might kill the party if I took the time to just plink away at them from a distance, and so forth).

Those options were not selected for this fight, they were selected for general adventuring. It just so happens that what a wizard brings for general adventuring is all he ever really needs to bring. Which is part of the point.


I've sent in my 6th level martial for approval.


I think that Avoron can't fight alone.


I'm still here, and I have a bunch of ideas for my 6th level caster. We're using all Paizo, correct? If this week doesn't bring any new surprises I should have my character ready to submit by the end of business on Thursday. :) Sorry again for the delays. Real life has been throwing me some curve-balls lately.


Okay, I have the alias partially set up and GM approval for my 6th level all Paizo caster. I'll be PMing CMDM here shortly with the alias and my three rounds of preparation actions.

Edit: Did want to note that I have a question put to the DM and I might be tweaking the character just a titch based on his answer. All things considered though I should be ready for the arena by Monday of next week. :)


We have 2 characters ready. Shall we wait for another two?


I'm fine with starting now.
If someone else wants to join in (Goddity?), feel free to speak up, but I'm skeptical of our ability to find two more participants before the internet dies of old age.

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