Echoes of the Sephira

Game Master Red Velvet Tiger

Epic heroes chosen by fate stumble across an ancient secret and unknowingly become gods. Their actions will determine the destiny of the multiverse itself.


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Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

Good point. For some reason, I'd gotten it in my mind that only the alchemist could use Delayed Consumption for some reason, but now that you mention it, you are correct, it could be put on everyone.

That being said, it eats one of my level 5 slots every time. I don't mind putting it up on everyone during downtime, but I don't think having it on everyone every day would be very viable.

I'll keep an eye open for my own request.


Female Human Sorcerer 9 / DD 8 | Ninja 2 / Swash 5 / Shadowdancer 10; 266/266 HP; Init +16, Percept. +35; AC 47/29/33; Fort +21, Ref +33, Will +19; Ki 11/11, Pan 10/10, MP 9/9, LP 2/2

Yeah, it's definitely not for putting up a buff spell we'd use daily. It's more for an emergency buff. Freedom of Movement really makes sense in that respect since you don't need it often, but when you do it can be life-or-death.


Female Human Clever Godling 17 / Eldritch Godling 17 / Hierophant 3 | HP: 182 | AC: 30 [41], T: 17 [28], FF: 28 [39], SR: [27] | Fort: 22, Reflex: 26, Will: 26 [Day: 28/32/32] | BAB: +12, CMB: +14, CMD: 31 | Init: +9, Perception: +31 |

Don't worry about spending them on me. ^^ I took the "Sigil-Marked" ability, which lets me do something fairly similar... though I should prooooooobably get some stuff in there before the adventure actually starts as a way of reflecting past adventures and preparation. Potions can only target my character, but I can use scrolls as well - are there any scrolls you'd all like to be certain we have available? If it's a standard action or less to cast, I can use it, even if it's a scroll that would normally be unavailable to my character.


Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

I can use just about any scroll or wand too; Trazzle's UMD is kind of nuts. I think we should make sure to have scrolls of all kind of healing spells, just in case. Remove curse, disease, poison, restoration... raise dead, possibly.

Between Alchemical Allocation. Extend Potion and Enhance Potion, I can do on myself much the same as Enduring Blessing ("drink" a potion without expending it, it works as level 17, twice the duration, so nearly four hours every time) so I won't take up one of your slots there.


Male Uldra Oracle 17/Witch 7/Winter Witch 10(PrC, Gestalt)

I know all Witch spells, including Raise Dead and Resurrection. I also know, as an Oracle, Greater Resto, Regen and Breath of Life. I might switch those out however, depending.


Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

Hm. Let's see.

We have:

The full Witch list.
The full Alchemist list.
...

What kind of casting do the rest of you have? I hope we have someone who has the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.


Female Human Clever Godling 17 / Eldritch Godling 17 / Hierophant 3 | HP: 182 | AC: 30 [41], T: 17 [28], FF: 28 [39], SR: [27] | Fort: 22, Reflex: 26, Will: 26 [Day: 28/32/32] | BAB: +12, CMB: +14, CMD: 31 | Init: +9, Perception: +31 |

I have the Cleric/Oracle list. I think it was mentioned we'd hit Level 30, and I'm not really sure if I'd take an arcane spellcasting class for even more magic or go with something to increase physical ability...

I also have Primordial Magic, which is essentially "every basic effect you could possibly need", as one of my casting options - if need be, I could spend my entire daily allotment of spells, of every level, doing something the party would need help with. XD


Female Human Sorcerer 9 / DD 8 | Ninja 2 / Swash 5 / Shadowdancer 10; 266/266 HP; Init +16, Percept. +35; AC 47/29/33; Fort +21, Ref +33, Will +19; Ki 11/11, Pan 10/10, MP 9/9, LP 2/2

I've got spells from the Sorcerer list, heavy on illusion and utility.


M Humanborn
Peredur Anwyl wrote:
I'm honestly myself finding the whole Thoon thing mildly problematic, having read the backstory for the character. The guy bopping around enslaving people and spreading insanity and driving people insane and so forth, it's something of an extremely rough fit with my own character.

enslaving is a bit of a stretch. they are captured and then a tadpole is placed in their brain, whereby they transform into something new. It is all quite beautiful, actually.


Female Human Clever Godling 17 / Eldritch Godling 17 / Hierophant 3 | HP: 182 | AC: 30 [41], T: 17 [28], FF: 28 [39], SR: [27] | Fort: 22, Reflex: 26, Will: 26 [Day: 28/32/32] | BAB: +12, CMB: +14, CMD: 31 | Init: +9, Perception: +31 |

Are you sure you wouldn't rather be CN (like the true eldritch lords) instead of NE? I mean, if you really want to play up a different set of morals and rules, that might actually be a more workable option... and nobody else would have to worry about working with an evil party member, just a very alien one that has totally different views from what they'd normally expect. It would also be good for discussions - if others think you're evil, they'll often be flat-out opposed... but if you're neutral, then the possibilities for discussion (and even agreement) can exist.

In other news, I added a variety of potions and scrolls for Sigil-Marked (deducting the costs in Hero Lab accordingly for her wealth). ^^ My offer's still open if anyone really wants to be sure some of a certain type are available.


M Humanborn
MM V wrote:
A Thoon elder brain is neutral evil, as are most followers of Thoon. Its efforts to gather quintessence without regard for the costs to others are unapologetically evil. It keeps its followers tightly organized among themselves (a lawful trait), but it can behave unpredictably and without a clear long-term plan (a hallmark of chaos).

just going with the monster entry. according to his abilities, there will be no way for anyone to know his alignment (protection from divinations being a very cheap power for him to manifest with 24hr duration) short of witnessing his actions. even being CN, he would have a very evil bent if evil was necessary to accomplish a goal.

the brain is more of a neutral, pragmatic evil.


M Humanborn

also, RVT, another question popped into my head. Looking over the magic item rules, it appears that the rules i thought had existed for recharging magic items are not in pathfinder.

the staff i purchased (staff of hoarding) is not one i anticipate using charges from MUCH, but i imagine eventually i will want to recharge it. would you be fine with allowing someone with the requisite feats to recharge the staff (obviously not for free or anything, i would even understand an increased cost or something).

normally i would just buy another staff or something, but i also enchanted the staff as a weapon and planned to use it while in alternate forms that don't have tentacles.

--------------------------------

on that note, other PCs who might have met Thoon in the past:

Thoon often takes the form of "normal" looking humanoids when in civilized areas. Even though he has little to fear from mere non-mythic mortals, he would rather a pitchfork-wielding mob simply not appear than have to casually slay them (especially since that might draw the ire of more powerful beings, such as other mythic PCs, which he would know to exist). Usually he will stay in whatever form until he ends up in combat, as it really doesnt matter to him what form he is in unless he actually has to fight something.


Male Human (half celestial template)
Tenro wrote:
Peredur Anwyl wrote:
I'm honestly myself finding the whole Thoon thing mildly problematic, having read the backstory for the character. The guy bopping around enslaving people and spreading insanity and driving people insane and so forth, it's something of an extremely rough fit with my own character.
enslaving is a bit of a stretch. they are captured and then a tadpole is placed in their brain, whereby they transform into something new. It is all quite beautiful, actually.

That really doesn't actually address the issue of your character as regards the qualms the rest of us are having with them being anything but a rough fit with several other characters.

If anything that went and made it worse, you now both deprive them of freedom and previous personhood. And I'm not saying that to philosophically debate it with you, I'm saying that in a "doing that is a bad fit with multiple characters in this game".

There was a question in the initial app about "will your character foster group cohesion" and your answer seems to at this point be "yes, because he will treat the rest of the group like dupes he will conceal what he does and believes from". It may just be me, but the idea that my gaming experience with your character will be "your character's dupe" does not encourage me to want to much interact with your character. And if instead we otherwise just straight up know what you get up to, I don't see a lot of fun in having to accept/deal with that either.

I'm really not thrilled about all that. It makes your character exist in a level of default antagonism to several other characters, in that you're already now talking about how you've designed your character with considerations in advance to blocking your fellow players from being able to know much from him. I don't particularly feel like playing your character's dupe. I'm not really looking to game in a group with built in antagonism in character relationships from day 1.

To ask it another way, what do you feel playing this character in a group of nonevil to good characters adds to this group of characters? And I don't mean in a mechanics way. I'm not looking for an "I'm playing an elder brain and this is how they are" answer in that sort of perennial, I'm just playing my character sort of response people seem to give in situations like these. Several people have expressed concerns on a level of gameplay and your replies seem to read right now like "deal with it, this is my character".

If you're thinking "hey, pantheons have evil gods". They sure do. They are also things that exist in stories people read about, not games you are sharing as an experience with other players.

I can for instance picture some friction every so often between, say, Trazzle's individualism and freedom loving and Peredur's inclination towards order and nation building, but that's more a matter of something they might debate or mildly exasperate each other by. That's character stuff, sure. Thoon's activities and perspectives blast right past that. And I think on some level you know that as far as this character and interacting with even something basic like a typical party makeup, let alone this one more specifically, or you wouldn't be talking about how your build ninjas you out of anyone knowing what you get up to as your response to concerns about your concept, as far as waving away concerns like that with responses involving mechanics. It feels like basically completely dismissing the concern as having any validity because you can say how stats let you ignore it.

We're, or certainly I'm, not talking about mechanics, we're talking about things like cohesion, characters at least somewhat complementing each other, and being able to overall fit to make a group that resonates and is an enjoyable experience, as a group.

There's at least levels of evil, if you're hellbent on having an evil character, ones that might not require you having to point out that we'll never get to know what you get up to anyway because of your mechanics. If you even dropped the "creating thralls and robbing people of sanity", that would be something.

Quote:
the brain is more of a neutral, pragmatic evil.

The guy spreads insanity and enslaves/"captures and transforms" people, that's not the most pragmatic of things.


M Humanborn

Admittedly, what I said earlier was tongue-in-cheek. If you'd care to pore over my thousands of posts in any one of my games, you will see that I do not seek to antagonize other players or their characters.

More to the point, I said nothing of treating the group like dupes. Concealing what he believes shouldn't worry you, i mean would someone playing an aspiring god of trickery be ready to gush his motives or life story to you? to fail to do so would be to conceal what he believes, which seems to be a no-go for you...

Aside from my lack of amusement regarding your implication that your being thrilled is a requirement of my character, in no way did i claim i would be promoting or championing evil. i did not request the evil domain. the race is evil by the very nature of its creation, as well as its unapologetic willingness/need to gather "quintnessence." Quintessence is not a mechanical thing, it is roleplaying fluff. I do not intend to use it, nor would i posit the GM would allow me to use it, as an excuse to antagonize other PCs.

To summarize, point by point:

"the rest of us" is a bit of a stretch. I count two players expressing concern so far, out of seven.

"Group cohesion": do you like everyone you work with? I know I don't. Even if you don't actively hate them, there are almost assuredly people in your life you dislike. can you not join with them for the greater good? does a little tension here and there not make a better story?

"dupes": Your word, not mine. You seem to be hung up on the concept that i am going to be trying to overtly or covertly harm the group. you are seeing an evil alignment on my character sheet (which i don't particularly see as your concern) and assuming one facet of evil in particular, looking at an entire character through a single, small lens.

my mental protections: none of your concern, nor should you consider yourself the cause for my desire to be protected.
A.) to suggest that i did it merely to protect MY character's mind from your character's probing or that of the party (probing considered by some to be hostile in and of itself, especially any who presume to espouse "freedom") suggests a level of antagonism on your part anyway. I am sure you were looking at my character's stats with honest intent, but coupled with your unfounded projection of antagonism, I am beginning to wonder.
B.) maybe that same mental barrier is there because all who try to read my character's mind are subject to a racial ability that damages their mind. Maybe, the character is trying to do whatever he wants without getting chased by pitchforks for accidentally rendering a young Diviner/Telepath/Mind-reader comatose. maybe you shouldn't be looking at my character sheet.

"what do you feel..." - Do i feel that there being an evil person whose motives can align with something other than evil adds to the story? Yes. There is a reason the genre of fantasy literature has so many antiheroes and secondary characters with hidden/dark pasts. it makes for a good story. That is also part of the reason you don't see a long series of novels about cuddly CareBears. we don't necessarily have to like each other to cooperate.

"if you dropped..." - your post crosses even further into offending me. You, a fellow player, my peer in a shared roleplaying venture, presume to request that i remove an element of my character inherent in the race's description?
A.) creating thralls: this is what the race does. I am content for these things to happen off-screen, because 1.)they are inconsequential and 2.) it would be unwise to do so in good-aligned company and 3.) i dont create thralls, my minions do. i dont travel in a troupe of minions, and that is the way they biologically breed. it could even be argued that they arent even thralls, as for the most part they become full members of the race (which was the point i tried to make, albeit in a comical manner, in my earlier post).
B.) robbing people of sanity: if you had bothered to read my backstory in its entirety, i explained why Thoon must be careful not to sow too much madness. the insanity is an interesting aspect I would like to "play up" from time to time. It is not a new concept for my character concept, and you are just now voicing concern. To ask me to change an aspect around which i have made MANY character choices this late in the creation process is extremely unfair. To remove that aspect, I would have to get rid of 12 levels of one side of the gestalt and the ENTIRE other side.

pragmatism: that was also meant as somewhat of a joke, and i hope you can take this as somewhat of a joke as well, but a creature that is insane is not necessarily going to agree with a sane creature as far as what is and is not "pragmatic".

your point about evil in a pantheon: it absolutely can and does exist in games you share with other players. You haven't played the same games I have.

mental defenses and disagreements between PCs: i brought up mental defenses to assuage your concern that someone would be detecting evil and the giant brain starts glowing, instigating party conflict. My point was that to find out he was truly evil, you would have to observe his actions you'd have to roleplay it instead of relying on "Detect Evil" mechanics). It is in his best interests not to be doing evil actions around you all. I wasn't trying to say that i could ignore it, i was merely saying that your character would really have to do their homework.

reminder: the GM was the one who originally suggested this race to me.

the reason i'm "hellbent on evil": the race is evil because its very origin is evil. mind flayers are created asexually by tadpoles that consume the brain of the original host. when those mind flayers die, thousands of their brains are dumped in a pool to meld together. the elder brain is composed of thousands of dead sentient beings. Then, after being touched by the far realm, the creature seeks out quintessence and isn't exactly always nice about it.

the bottom line: if the GM requires that I be non-evil, that is fine and i will tweak things. HOWEVER i am not going to remove the insanity theme to pander to your desires. IF the GM requires this, then I will make an entirely new character from scratch, and that will require at least a week.


Male Human (half celestial template)

I am again not looking to internet debate you on your character's justifications for why they do what they do, repeating how elder brains are evil and that this is what elder brains do is not actually responding to what the concerns are here. That's again just going this is my character, deal with it.

Quote:
"Group cohesion": do you like everyone you work with? I know I don't. Even if you don't actively hate them, there are almost assuredly people in your life you dislike. can you not join with them for the greater good? does a little tension here and there not make a better story?

There is a difference between not liking someone that I work with, and working with someone who engages in things my character would actively have massive fundamental problems with. Similarly, there's "disliking people" and "working with people who are evil and faff about consuming psyches, driving people insane, and enslaving people".

You basically seem to just handwave this stuff off as something other characters might have deep problems with.

Quote:

"dupes": Your word, not mine. You seem to be hung up on the concept that i am going to be trying to overtly or covertly harm the group. you are seeing an evil alignment on my character sheet (which i don't particularly see as your concern) and assuming one facet of evil in particular, looking at an entire character through a single, small lens.

No, I'm reading your backstory, noting that along with your evil alignment, and that you thereby as routine get up to evil, heinous stuff as related to it. I'm noting that stuff is not a great fit with several concepts here.

That you feel what your character does/believes is of no concern to any other player in the group as far as having to play alongside you, in a group, feels kind of solipsistic. We exist as a group of people, playing as a group, the overall fit of our characters is thereby a concern beyond you.

That you're veering into "don't look at my sheet" goes right further into that we're not so much a group as people who apparently shouldn't even be looking at each other's sheets. We're all in the same campaign dude.

Quote:

"what do you feel..." - Do i feel that there being an evil person whose motives can align with something other than evil adds to the story? Yes. There is a reason the genre of fantasy literature has so many antiheroes and secondary characters with hidden/dark pasts. it makes for a good story. That is also part of the reason you don't see a long series of novels about cuddly CareBears. we don't necessarily have to like each other to cooperate.

Your character is an evil elder brain who goes around spreading insanity and enslaving people. What work of fantasy are you particularly talking about where something like that is a member of team protagonist?

That you are basically saying that being prevented or asked to tone your character's stuff down would be like turning the group into the carebears is an oddly extreme response.

Quote:

"if you dropped..." - your post crosses even further into offending me. You, a fellow player, my peer in a shared roleplaying venture, presume to request that i remove an element of my character inherent in the race's description?

A.) creating thralls: this is what the race does. I am content for these things to happen off-screen, because 1.)they are inconsequential and 2.) it would be unwise to do so in good-aligned company and 3.) i dont create thralls, my minions do. i dont travel in a troupe of minions, and that is the way they biologically breed. it could even be argued that they arent even thralls, as for the most part they become full members of the race (which was the point i tried to make, albeit in a comical manner, in my earlier post).
B.) robbing people of sanity: if you had bothered to read my backstory in its entirety, i explained why Thoon must be careful not to sow too much madness. the insanity is an interesting aspect I would like to "play up" from time to time. It is not a new concept for my character concept, and you are just now voicing concern. To ask me to change an aspect around which i have made MANY character choices this late in the creation process is extremely unfair. To remove that aspect, I would have to get rid of 12 levels of one side of the gestalt and the ENTIRE other side.

Serious question, do you feel that people having problems with "my character drives people insane and enslaves people as an evil elder brain" is actually that extreme a response?

The party makeup is predominantly good aligned. Those not good aligned include people who hold to freedom as one of their highest principles. Would it be so terrible to at least somewhat adjust to that?

In Pathfinder especially, even the developers note that race alignment is not universal. Nothing stops you from being a neutral elder brain. Nothing stops you from, if indeed it's all fluff, being an elder brain that doesn't do the sorts of things you note that he gets up to.

Nothing stops you from at least toning them down and still being evil. Cripes, if he was even like, some kind of alien thing that thralled and made crazy the willing who came to him for it, that would certainly be disturbing, but it would at least be more acceptable in a "doesn't make people feel you are doing terrible things that should be stopped" sort of way.

Quote:

pragmatism: that was also meant as somewhat of a joke, and i hope you can take this as somewhat of a joke as well, but a creature that is insane is not necessarily going to agree with a sane creature as far as what is and is not "pragmatic".

Once again, I'm not actually asking for you to justify your character's actions within their concept or race. I'm sure they make sense just fine as part of your character's concept or race. I am asking you to consider that they fit poorly with multiple characters in this group.

"Well he's insane" is nothing really more than again "this is my character, deal with it".

I'm not asking you to not be an elder brain. I'm not asking you to drop your evil alignment. I'm asking you to consider that "you should be forced to deal with me exactly as I am" is maybe not the best way to be approaching this.

I'm also noting that you seem to be treating as minor, major details as far as your character actions and how they should be viewed by others.

Quote:

reminder: the GM was the one who originally suggested this race to me.

then my question goes out to the GM as well as why they feel an evil elder brain who makes people insane and enslaves people is a good fit with multiple characters in this group beyond a "we are forced to work with you and accept what you do" situation.


M Humanborn

I understand your concern that my background doesn't jive with yours. That's fine. Our characters do not know each other prior to the outset of the game necessarily. it is my responsibility to ensure I am a team player, that does not mean we have to see eye to eye in the beginning.

We ARE individuals. We are allowed to be more than one alignment bracket apart.

I took great offense because, in some way, I consider the story and character I put together to be a piece of art, however crude. Created within the guidelines and then accepted, only to be spat upon by someone who should be my peer, not someone with authority over me. I feel as if you are trying to impose your will upon me, which you have no right to do.

Tenro wrote:
the bottom line: if the GM requires that I be non-evil, that is fine and i will tweak things. HOWEVER i am not going to remove the insanity theme to pander to your desires. IF the GM requires this, then I will make an entirely new character from scratch, and that will require at least a week.

probably more than a week, but whatever. All this arguing about it is taking the fun out of playing the character before we even start.

If Thoon is so offensive to "everyone's" sensibilities, I don't mind overmuch just making an entirely different character so that someone else can have fun. I just don't want to be penalized for it.


Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

I will second the question to RVT, for sure.

For the record, that is three people who have expressed concern. Not two.

I understand that playing an evil character is fun, but, depending on extremes, (such as a creature based on driving other creatures insane), this can cause a party collapse when (and believe me, it always somehow does), the party finds out that person's true identity.

The idea that "the other characters won't find out" may seem workable, but it's important to consider that it contains the baggage of "the other players will have to live with the fact that mine is operating behind their backs and there's nothing they can do about it."

I'm not sure what to suggest, but we definitely have a problem here.

EDIT: I won't be around to post until later tonight, so I'll summarize my whole position:

I think it would be important that, in the end, we have a party that can at least tolerate each other without coming to blows. From what I have understood about THOON!, (and I say it with the necessary drama not out of mockery, but out of genuine amusement ;)) this would not be possible.

Your background in the application puts a lot of emphasis on wanting to learn things about new worlds; would you consider a lawful neutral elder brain who comes to study rather than enslave and consume? This could be an interesting angle with a better fit to it.


Male Human (half celestial template)
Quote:

I understand your concern that my background doesn't jive with yours. That's fine. Our characters do not know each other prior to the outset of the game necessarily. it is my responsibility to ensure I am a team player, that does not mean we have to see eye to eye in the beginning.

We ARE individuals. We are allowed to be more than one alignment bracket apart.

I took great offense because, in some way, I consider the story and character I put together to be a piece of art, however crude. Created within the guidelines and then accepted, only to be spat upon by someone who should be my peer, not someone with authority over me. I feel as if you are trying to impose your will upon me, which you have no right to do.

The group is predominantly good aligned or ascribe to ideals in direct contradiction of what your character believes, does and pursues. Three players have expressed qualms about this vocally.

That I am asking you to consider how your character can fit in a larger group and all you can talk about is how offended you are at having to compromise your personal art is again... we all have to share the same campaign space. If this is only about you and your personal art, why even join a group game?

No one has said "remake your character as good", one person even said "hey, maybe be chaotic neutral". I even said "hey, maybe still be evil, but maybe you only do your stuff to people who come to you willingly for it."

Maybe your madness is seen by yourself and others as some kind of transcendent cosmic wisdom, and thus various types of appropriate personality come to you willingly to be made crazy or thralls in order to become part of it. Would that really be that harsh a concept change? Something to let you go "you may think what I do is horrifyingly grotesque, but everyone I've done it to is a volunteer that comes to me." Maybe your character even holds it as a perverse point of pride that he/they/it has never done such a thing to anyone that didn't want it.

This isn't a "who can create the most glorious piece of art" competition. This is a shared campaign. If three players went to me "I can't see myself enjoying being in this game with your character/not being able to game with this character without massive problems", I would seriously consider making changes to my character and not say that we should all be forced to work together by the GM. If ontop of that I looked at the group makeup as a whole and noted that my character, not a great fit, I'd consider that besides.


Female Human Sorcerer 9 / DD 8 | Ninja 2 / Swash 5 / Shadowdancer 10; 266/266 HP; Init +16, Percept. +35; AC 47/29/33; Fort +21, Ref +33, Will +19; Ki 11/11, Pan 10/10, MP 9/9, LP 2/2

I suppose I should add that Yukio would be quite uncomfortable working with a character who is converting innocents against their will. The idea of creating spawn is no different for shadows, but I've left off the ability on my familiar because there's no way she'd tolerate the intentional creation of shadow or wraith-spawn.

But the idea of Thoon is a good one, I like the character, and the madness/insanity theme itself works fine. If instead of collecting and converting people against their will, Thoon's acolytes went around proselytizing and those who sought Thoon's wisdom were then implanted it would keep the flavor but might make the MO more acceptable. Giving the gift of Thoon-ness to those who seek it (or who are already mad) is a subtle tweak, but would probably make the rest of the group more comfortable.


Male Human (half celestial template)

I'd prefer, were they to go with that suggestion (and it lines up with my own offered alternate take really), that they stuck to the willing over the willing and also the already insane. The latter adds an exploiting the helpless angle unless that would only be for people who are, y'know, Joker style crazy or some suchery.


Female Human Clever Godling 17 / Eldritch Godling 17 / Hierophant 3 | HP: 182 | AC: 30 [41], T: 17 [28], FF: 28 [39], SR: [27] | Fort: 22, Reflex: 26, Will: 26 [Day: 28/32/32] | BAB: +12, CMB: +14, CMD: 31 | Init: +9, Perception: +31 |

*Raises hand* I like Thoon's overall idea and creation, too. He seems like a colorful, interesting, and well thought-out character, and I think it's obvious that you spent a lot of time putting him together and trying to make him work. Having spent many hours building my own character and deciding on various bits and pieces, I can appreciate all the work that goes into building a character so complicated. ^^ I have no problems whatsoever with Thoon as a character or in terms of mechanics. In fact, I rather enjoy him and think you did a good job.

I also agree that having conflict is interesting; i.e., gods of trickery and evil and such do exist in fantasy, and rather than having everybody be a goody two-shoes, a little bit of spice and depth in the characters and pantheon can be far more fun for the players to work with. I, for one, actually enjoy that sort of thing.

I just... my gut feeling is that this may not work out very well as things currently are (and I'm not saying that just because Thoon's an evil tentacle monster and I'm playing a godling of, among other things, lust. That we ended up with this combination is actually making me laugh).

Anyway, would you at least be willing to consider making a few tweaks, enough to allow the rest of the party to live with his actions even if they don't actually like his stuff? Things like "I don't agree with what he's doing, but my devotion to free will is insisting that I accept other peoples' choice to join Thoon, and I have to reconcile this somehow" could also provide some conflict... and if you are willing to make tweaks, then I'd be happy to meet you halfway and make a few tweaks to my own character as well. ^^ I won't ask you to do anything I'm not willing to do myself, and I think we'd all be a lot happier over time this way.


Ok, time to put on the GM-girl pants!

AVATARS: You can either look how you did, pre-ascension, or you can adopt a wildly different form, so long as you retain a basic humanoid shape and your former size. Make sense?

Trazzle, what were you requesting?

RECHARGING STAVES: I can allow the recharging of staves for a certain fee.

THOON!: Since this seems to be a point of contention, let me clarify a few things. Each game SPECIFICALLY has opposed members. Why do this? Because it offers a variety of perspectives on certain issues, which can prove valuable at times during certain points of the campaign. Also, each person owes a VERY powerful figure a debt, one that essentially forces them to work together even if they only think it's on a temporary basis. Once they ascend, they have even more reason to stick together, as their divinity is interlinked; slaying one would considerably weaken the others. Not only that, but every pantheon I have ever read of, unless you include the Holy Trinity, has some level of infighting. I am aware that some people do not feel that he 'jives well', but as Tenro pointed out, you do not know from the onset that he is evil, just crazy. IF THIS DOES NOT ASSUAGE EVERYONE, THEN WE CAN SEE ABOUT SWITCHING UP GROUPS, AS MUCH AS I DO NOT LIKE THE CONCEPT OF CHANGING GROUPS DAYS AFTER SELECTION, AS I JUST SPOKE WITH TSP VIA TEXT ABOUT THIS. THANKFULLY, HE HAS BEEN BUSY WITH ME GETTING THE ENCOUNTERS PLAYTESTED, SO THEY HAVE NOT YET BEGUN EITHER. Thoon is definitely one of the characters I REALLY want in my campaign, so post if you do not want to be in the group with Thoon and are fine with TSP's group.


Female Human Clever Godling 17 / Eldritch Godling 17 / Hierophant 3 | HP: 182 | AC: 30 [41], T: 17 [28], FF: 28 [39], SR: [27] | Fort: 22, Reflex: 26, Will: 26 [Day: 28/32/32] | BAB: +12, CMB: +14, CMD: 31 | Init: +9, Perception: +31 |

If there's a way to make it work, I'm fine with it. ^^ And I've selected my Avatar's (rather different) form, too - I'll post that once we actually start using them.


Male Human (half celestial template)

I have no inclination to play in a campaign where my options for dealing with a character who does things completely antithetical to multiple characters in the group, is either 1) we are forced to work together despite deep incompatibility or 2) we are dupes who have no idea what he does. And where you the GM say those are going to be the only options.

It's possibly only me, but basically having to game in what would be a constantly antagonistic and unamicable situation as the character situation, would drain any fun out of this game I might have had. That my only other option is to play my character as ignorant and helpless in the face of the stuff Thoon does.

I think that multiple good suggestions were offered for even just moderate changes he could have made to his concept that would have reconciled it to the at this point numerous characters who have asked for some kind of change to be made.

If my character were told that slaying the evil guy who goes around enslaving/thralling people and driving them insane would weaken him and others, he'd shrug and consider that an acceptable sacrifice to make. He might in fact even simply kill himself if he knew it would permanently cripple a figure like Thoon.

I'm not sure why in looking at all the characters you chose, you decided that in a predominantly good, and if not good, freedom loving group, would not end up with problems with someone like Thoon, doing what he does.

You can talk about evil and perspectives, but there are again degrees of evil, and ways to do evil characters without basically spiting the rest of the group's concepts, the concerns their players express, and basically catering to the idea that someone's personal art should be held above remotely accommodating the idea of sharing a game.

You can talk about "how pantheons work" but again, those are stories people read, not games people play together as a group where they ostensibly work together and tolerate each other. There's a difference between "characters don't always get along" and "character does things profoundly objectionable to multiple other characters"

I think at this point when your own response to the concerns of four players is "nope, Thoon gets to not change anything, and the situation will be contrived to make you accept it anyway, or otherwise know your characters are just ignorant of the terrible things he does", this isn't really a game I want to stick with, to be honest with you.

Thanks for your time and consideration, I wish you all the best of luck with this game and hope you enjoy yourselves.

edit: This isn't a request to join the other game, to be clear, you don't need to refer me to TSP or some such whatever. I'm generally withdrawing.


Female Human/Eidolon Jazzai's Gear 3 Eidolon HP 23/25 AC 12 Fort +6 Ref +1 Will +6

FOR THE STAFF QUESTION: Staves

Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.

Figured since I knew the answer I could link it for you.


Male Uldra Oracle 17/Witch 7/Winter Witch 10(PrC, Gestalt)

First of all, I honestly don't see any problem with the Thoon concept. Just because he wrote about bad, evil stuff in his character history, does not mean that's how he'll be playing the character, once the game starts.

Tenro said it's his responsibility to ensure party unity and he's right. Since several players have said they are worried about him being evil and insane, it's up to him to play that in such a way as to not jeopardize the game and party.

Perhaps I am giving Ten the benefit of the doubt, but I have and am playing with him in several games and have faith he'll play Thoon just fine once the game actually starts.

Finally, Ice King is kinda evil but also kinda good. Whichever is best at the moment, or based on his current mood or whim. Its why his alignment is just Chaotic, as opposed to even Chaotic Neutral.

Sometimes he might be and do evil things. Other times, rather good stuff.

He has the create undead spells, but also positive energy healing abilities.


Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

I'm quite worried about game enjoyment, but I disagree with Camiel's attitude of withdrawing. I am willing to try things out and see how things go.

I must, however, agree with Camiel on one thing: Weakening the pandion woupd not be enough to stop good/freedom driven neutral characters from oppoosing evil.


Peredur, very well, though you should have voiced your concerns before selection. RVT is very disappointed, not to mention somewhat hurt by your implications. I left class to help make her feel better.

AND FOR ANYONE WHO THINKS CHARACTERS LIKE THOON AND OTHERS CANNOT GET ALONG, CONSIDER THIS: SARENRAE/ASMODEUS IN GOLARION'S COSMOLOGY! THE ISSUES ARE VERY SIMILAR ON A PRIMAL LEVEL, BUT THEY GET ALONG BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO, BECAUSE OF ROVAGUG, AND BECAUSE A DIVINE WAR IS MOST ASSUREDLY NOT WHAT THEY WANT! AND IF YOU'VE READ ASMODEUS AND SARENRAE'S HISTORY, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT SHE HAS A VERY PERSONAL REASON TO WANT HIM DEAD: HE KILLED HER MASTER AND HIS BROTHER!

I have agreed with RVT to swap PCs who do not mesh with Thoon.

I will also contact some of our runner-ups while RVT tries to calm down. I made her a Tropical Snowflurry drink. :)

I thank those who were respectful to my pupil in this issue, as she is new and somewhat sensitive to people's criticisms and comments. *Tips hat to Yukio, Trazzle, and Camiel, as well as those not partaking of the discussion.*


Male Uldra Oracle 17/Witch 7/Winter Witch 10(PrC, Gestalt)

HEY! I don't get a hat tip?! <goes and grumbles in the corner, while making it snow just on TSP's head> :P :P

PS,

I do not believe Camiel is leaving us, just Peredur.


I know Camiel doesn't intend to leave. And my mistake, my slushee little friend. *Tips hat twice to Petrikov and throws a banana his way*


Male Uldra Oracle 17/Witch 7/Winter Witch 10(PrC, Gestalt)

I was referring to Trazzle's comment above yours, also, go see what our ogre friend just did :)

On an entirely other note:

Yukio, would you be interested in pre-game start character ties? I feel like the eventual deities of Winter/Cold and Darkness Shadow being friends would be AWESOME.


Female Human Clever Godling 17 / Eldritch Godling 17 / Hierophant 3 | HP: 182 | AC: 30 [41], T: 17 [28], FF: 28 [39], SR: [27] | Fort: 22, Reflex: 26, Will: 26 [Day: 28/32/32] | BAB: +12, CMB: +14, CMD: 31 | Init: +9, Perception: +31 |

Did I say anything about withdrawing or make statements on weakening the party to oppose evil? o wo;

Anyway, I've always felt that it's better to ask "Can we make this work?" if something seems like a problem, rather than give it an outright "No." ^^ Pathfinder's a cooperative roleplaying game, after all, and I wouldn't be here if I wasn't willing to cooperate as best I could. Strange times can make for strange companions, and I just hope that everyone will be able to have fun together.

In other words, if Thoon doesn't do anything that would make much of the rest of the party want to stop him even at serious risk to themselves and the future, I don't really see him as a problem. XD From the comments on recognizing the danger that a group of gestalt PCs could pose to the overall plans for Thoon (as a race/idea/whatever the heck it is), I think he understands - and has no trouble with the fact that the rest of us also have character ideas, and that doing anything to invite too much conflict might not end too well.

Just don't try to sneak into Camiel's bed at night, okay? Godling of lust or no, I plan to keep her strictly PG-13. XD


Female Human Sorcerer 9 / DD 8 | Ninja 2 / Swash 5 / Shadowdancer 10; 266/266 HP; Init +16, Percept. +35; AC 47/29/33; Fort +21, Ref +33, Will +19; Ki 11/11, Pan 10/10, MP 9/9, LP 2/2

I think you meant Peredur, not Camiel, Trazzle. :p

I'm also more than willing to give it a shot.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, I think the main problem with "evil behind the party's back" is that the PCs know the character is evil while the characters don't. This results in over-compensation in interactions in one of two ways: Either the characters tend to interpret otherwise neutral actions as evil, or feel pressure to view obviously evil actions as neutral. If it were truly possible to separate PC from character knowledge 100%, this wouldn't be an issue at all. Dealing with an openly evil character in a forced situation, on the other hand, syncs up PC and character knowledge, which I think results in interactions that are more likely to be internally consistent to the character.

That is, the feud between Sarenrae and Asmodeous probably would work better in an RPG than something like that of Thor and Loki before Loki backstabs Thor would (can't think of a pathfinder analogue :p).


Female Human Sorcerer 9 / DD 8 | Ninja 2 / Swash 5 / Shadowdancer 10; 266/266 HP; Init +16, Percept. +35; AC 47/29/33; Fort +21, Ref +33, Will +19; Ki 11/11, Pan 10/10, MP 9/9, LP 2/2

Petrikov: Yeah, that'd work quite well, there's plenty of room for tie-ins between Yukio being rescued from her thousand year imprisonment and her quest to forge Avidarel's shadow. Yukio's also definitely on the chaotic side, as I went back and forth as to whether she should be good or neutral for a while.


M Humanborn
Jazzai Moonbreaker wrote:

FOR THE STAFF QUESTION: Staves

Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.

Figured since I knew the answer I could link it for you.

thanks, I had somehow missed that, althought the magic creation rules are usually spread out.


Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

Don't followers of Sarenrae and Asmodeus fight all the time? :P


Female Human/Eidolon Jazzai's Gear 3 Eidolon HP 23/25 AC 12 Fort +6 Ref +1 Will +6

I had a character that was an Item Creation Specialist so I learned the rules really well and usually know where to find an answer. The reason I didn't post earlier was because I wanted to be able to link the response so you knew it was valid and just not me making things up.

I loved my crafter. She had every magic item creation feat, including tattoo's and constructs.

GM killed her because the party kept getting better stuff than the bad guys and wrecked his plans. His world death was permenant and took a God bringing you back to have it happen.

He let me come back after the party basically blew up on him but she was never the same. AKA restriction for item creation to have to quest for item A to make an item ect.


M Humanborn
Ice King Petrikov wrote:

First of all, I honestly don't see any problem with the Thoon concept. Just because he wrote about bad, evil stuff in his character history, does not mean that's how he'll be playing the character, once the game starts.

Tenro said it's his responsibility to ensure party unity and he's right. Since several players have said they are worried about him being evil and insane, it's up to him to play that in such a way as to not jeopardize the game and party.

sorry for multiple posts, im on my phone and it's annoying to multi post


M Humanborn
Camiel, the Virgin Lover wrote:


Just don't try to sneak into Camiel's bed at night, okay? Godling of lust or no, I plan to keep her strictly PG-13. XD

I also plan to stay PG. He would consider sexual reproduction to be vastly inferior to his race's method. plus i dont like doing that stuff as a player anyway


M Humanborn

I dont mind changing the concept to only making those who willingly approach him. It's still evil but will be less disruptive.

EDIT: it would lead to some amusing interactions with PCs and NPCs.

also, I do not have a problem if other people's characters try to kill my character. If that's what they'd do, then that's what they'd do. i won't be mad if it was borne as an honest consequence of RP and Thoon's actions.


Male Kobold Wizard 17/Witchguard Ranger 7/Duelist 10, Archmage 3 | Sunseeker's Power | HP: 197+2d10+17 | AC: 46/36/26, Saves: +22/+34/+21, SR 22 | Init:+21, Perc. +21

Greetings.

So, RVT has invited me to fill the spot left by Peredur's departure.

I have to say, I'm glad that I get to play in this campaign. I'll catch myself up to speed quickly, and I hope that I get to work with all of you.


Yay, everyone's cohesive! ^_^


M Humanborn
Jazzai Moonbreaker wrote:

I had a character that was an Item Creation Specialist so I learned the rules really well and usually know where to find an answer. The reason I didn't post earlier was because I wanted to be able to link the response so you knew it was valid and just not me making things up.

I loved my crafter. She had every magic item creation feat, including tattoo's and constructs.

GM killed her because the party kept getting better stuff than the bad guys and wrecked his plans. His world death was permenant and took a God bringing you back to have it happen.

He let me come back after the party basically blew up on him but she was never the same. AKA restriction for item creation to have to quest for item A to make an item ect.

that sucks. I have an IRL GM that allows discounts in magic item creation if you research things and go find the right components, or find magical components amd research what theymight be conducive in making.


Female Human Clever Godling 17 / Eldritch Godling 17 / Hierophant 3 | HP: 182 | AC: 30 [41], T: 17 [28], FF: 28 [39], SR: [27] | Fort: 22, Reflex: 26, Will: 26 [Day: 28/32/32] | BAB: +12, CMB: +14, CMD: 31 | Init: +9, Perception: +31 |

I'm certainly trying to be. XD I think we've gotten most of the big things ironed out, too?

@Tenro: Violence isn't normally Camiel's first choice for conflict resolution. She'd rather try to charm people and change their minds, perhaps get them to consider an alternative course of action. ^^ As far as she's concerned, blowing things up is mainly for when it's truly necessary (such as against mindless foes that can't be reasoned with). So even with the revelation, she'd probably try to get him to do something else instead of outright attacking.


M Humanborn

I've only a few minor mythic and equipment things to work out, they'll be done by the end of the day. I was rereading an ability i had chosen and realized it didn't work as well as i thought, so changed some other things around.


Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

Ahh, Charis. Another someone I have a background in common with. Hopefuly I can dig it back up.

Edit: Curses! I don't have it around anymore. Think you could dig it out of your PMs and send it to me?

As far as possible party clashing goes, I will say this:

I will not go out of my way to cause issues. However, I will not go out of my way to avoid them, and I will not make my character willfully ignorant of things he absolutely would notice.


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Female Human Sorcerer 9 / DD 8 | Ninja 2 / Swash 5 / Shadowdancer 10; 266/266 HP; Init +16, Percept. +35; AC 47/29/33; Fort +21, Ref +33, Will +19; Ki 11/11, Pan 10/10, MP 9/9, LP 2/2

Welcome aboard Charis! It'll be nice to have another melee/caster up front, as well as a wizard with a full spellbook.

RVT: Everything is copacetic!

Tenro: I imagine it won't ever come to blows, especially if Thoon maintains plausible deniability. I can see there being conflict later on, but I imagine it'll be something like:

Everyone: "Thoon, your followers are doing horrible things in your name, stop them!"

Thoon: "What? Oh really? That's terribly shocking, I'll get right on that... Will a strongly worded letter do?"

Everyone: "THOOOOOOON!"

Then Thoon shrugs and gives a "Why are you looking at me that way" look, the laugh-track is queued and the closing credits to this week's episode of That's Thoon! roll. :p


M Humanborn
Yukio the Shadow-Binder wrote:

Welcome aboard Charis! It'll be nice to have another melee/caster up front, as well as a wizard with a full spellbook.

RVT: Everything is copacetic!

Tenro: I imagine it won't ever come to blows, especially if Thoon maintains plausible deniability. I can see there being conflict later on, but I imagine it'll be something like:

Everyone: "Thoon, your followers are doing horrible things in your name, stop them!"

Thoon: "What? Oh really? That's terribly shocking, I'll get right on that... Will a strongly worded letter do?"

Everyone: "THOOOOOOON!"

Then Thoon shrugs and gives a "Why are you looking at me that way" look, the laugh-track is queued and the closing credits to this week's episode of That's Thoon! roll. :p

i was thinking the same thing! hahahaa

On another note, do we have a lot of folks with crafting feats? I am thinking of grabbing the mythic path ability that lets me act like i have all the feats.


Male Goblin Witch/Trap Breaker Alchemist 17, Tier 3 Trickster Archmage | Tricks and Status | HP: 221 | AC: 50, T: 28, FF: 33 | Fort: +21, Ref: +26, Will +22 | CMD: 39 | Init +14, Perception +37. +46 vs. traps, Sense Motive +34

Brew Potion and Craft Wondrous here. I got the first one through Alchemist and the second one because waaaahahahahahaha all kinds of fun items!

We'll be right back for the next episode of 'That's our THOON!' but first, a message from our sponsors.

Trazzenol; alchemically developped for YOUR well-being. Drink it. Hit harder. Survive.

Trazzenol; it may or may not kill you, but that Tarrasque certainly would.

Warning: May contain unstable alchemi-*deafening blast*


M Humanborn

Thoon got Scribe Tattoo and Master Craftsman as bonus feats from his classes, but Craft Staff might be nice to be able to charge his staff. But even nicer would be to be able to make anything.

EDIT:

still looks like he would be limited to the spells that the party had available, however, as far as spell completion and spell trigger items are concerned.

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