Wrestler Character Class?

If I wanted to make a character that specialized in grappling/wrestling, what would be the best route for such a build? I see that Fighters and Barbarians both have an archetype dedicated to such builds, and I assumed Monk would, but didn't see anything from a cursory glance over their archetype list.

Also, grappling seems like an ineffective fighting style from an optimization standpoint. Using a standard action each round to maintain the grapple versus doing a full-round attack action seems like an inefficient use of a characters time, unless I'm missing something. So what are some ways players typically make such builds effective? Can they even be effective?

Tetori monk is the build you are looking for. They are the best grappler in the game, period.

^concur i posted a similar thread a month ago, after all the responses, that was the concise answer.

Yes, the Tetori monk and the Brutal Pugilist barbarian certainly make solid grapplers. You can also build around the Maneuver Master monk, the Lore Warden fighter and a few other archetypes. The Brawler class from the ACG playtest also can make a solid grappler.

As for your second point OP, yeah, you're definitely missing something. Feat progression improves your grapple action economy, allowing your grapple checks to progress far faster.

Yes, grapple builds can be very effective, but like many other builds and tactical methods of combat, they have their weaknesses.

Two weaknesses, for example, would be dealing with incorporeal creatures and enemies utilizing Freedom of Movement, both of which make a grappler's life more difficult.

Tetori monk if you want to hyper-specialize.

At level 6, Greater Grapple will let you make Move Action grapple checks after the initial Standard Action grapple.

At level 9, Rapid Grapple will let you make a Swift Action grapple check after using Greater Grapple.

At L9, you can make 3 Grapple checks per round (Grapple > Pin > Tie Up)*

*=there is some table variation on certain things, so make sure to talk over grappling rules with your GM so you both are in agreement on how it works.

I believe the tetori can also counter teleporting away and incorporeal-ness with it's ki, so you CAN actually grapple wizards and ghosts...

I believe the tetori can also counter teleporting away and incorporeal-ness with it's ki, so you CAN actually grapple wizards and ghosts...

Inescapable Grasp (Su): At 9th level, a tetori can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents' freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the tetori's unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler's level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler's next turn. This ability replaces abundant step, improved evasion, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.

Yup. Have to spend a ki point per round, but Freedom of Movement won't help after 9th level.

I believe the tetori can also counter teleporting away and incorporeal-ness with it's ki, so you CAN actually grapple wizards and ghosts...

Sort of. The Tetori can counter Freedom of Movement at level 9, but it's a spell that you'll see begin to come into play around level 7. In addition, the Tetori is the only grappler who has an anti-freedom-of-movement ability.

As for incorporeal creatures, they don't get a grapple ability on them until level 17...and I'll bet you're going to run into some before then.

Evilserran wrote:

I believe the tetori can also counter teleporting away and incorporeal-ness with it's ki, so you CAN actually grapple wizards and ghosts...

Sort of. The Tetori can counter Freedom of Movement at level 9, but it's a spell that you'll see begin to come into play around level 7. In addition, the Tetori is the only grappler who has an anti-freedom-of-movement ability.

As for incorporeal creatures, they don't get a grapple ability on them until level 17...and I'll bet you're going to run into some before then.

a way to stop freedom of movement is a spell storing cestus (+ dispell) and grab to supress the freedom. it wont work every time but you can knock it out for a few rounds to get your grapple off. just make sure to remove the ring (if its a ring) before the effect goes back into play.

its more cost efficient then spending kipool points every round.

And a ghost touch AoMF will let you grapple incorporeal.

Yeah, there are definitely gear-based solutions to lessening the issues. But...that's kinda my point. By understanding the weaknesses in the overall approach, you can then work to minimize them.

And a ghost touch AoMF will let you grapple incorporeal.

By strict RAW, that is not true.

"Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled."

Only the Tetori's L17 upgrade to his Inescapable Grasp ability specifically allows grappling an incorporeal creature. Nothing in the Ghost Touch enchantment description allows you to grapple an incorporeal creature.

However, a GM could house rule that a Ghost Touch AoMF would allow you to grapple an incorporeal creature.

Is it advised to find a way to increase size, and if so, what is the recommended way to do so?

You don't need to increase size as you can grapple a creature of any size, only the Grab monster ability (that tetori eventually get) is limited by size. Larger monster do have consistently higher CMDs making it harder to grapple them but it is possible.

If you are worried about stuff you can't grapple target your gear to compensate, grab a swarmbane clasp for swarms, a ghosttouch temple sword for incorporeal (or if you have access to bigger weapons, grab one of those).

You may find encounters difficult if they include lots of little monsters or easy if you grapple the big bad caster and explain to the GM his concentration check to cast is 40 + spell level, at level 10.

Yeah, it's the size modifier I was mainly worried about. I realize I can grapple any size creature by spending some ki as a Tetori (and can also eventually grapple incorporeal creatures), so that's not rally the issue.

I figured by finding a way to increase my size, I could keep pace with the modifier of the larger creatures.

If you don't mind third part products Little Red Goblin Games produced a Wrestler class that is pretty fun if you want something inspired by Pro Wrestling.

King of the Ring

So, I've got most of the build figured out.

It will be a Half-Ogre Tetori + Qinggong Monk. I planned on swapping out Wholeness of body for the Barkskin SLA, Diamond Body for Ki Leech, and Quivering Palm for Ki Shout SLA.

Feats are: Power Attack, Improved Sever, Limb Ripper, ???, Rapid Grappler, Pinning Rend, ???, Final Embrace, Final Embrace Horror, Final Embrace Master. So I wouldn't mind some suggestions on the 2 undecided feats.

I would appreciate any suggestions for any traits that would be useful as well, as well as any other suggestions/comments on the build so far.

I have found that with some exceptions you don't need to increase your size to keep up. My Tetori ended up with a 15 grapple mod at 3rd and he is now 11 with a +38. He grapples most opponents on a 2 and has frequently grappled two different creatures defensively taking a -8 on his checks and using greater grapple to maintain on two targets. If he had the ability to grapple with his tail he could maintain grapples on three targets now with Rapid Grappler.

As for feats/traits consider the Bred for War trait, definitely fits a half ogre. Dodge is not a bad feat since it increases your CMD as is Blindfight for a number of situations, especially getting a hand on casters.

The Snapping Turtle Style chain is popular with Tetori monks as well, granting you a grapple check when an opponent misses you. Crane Style chain also works since fighting defensively boosts your CMD to prevent escapes.

You can also use the Celestial Obedience feat to Falayna if you want to pump your numbers and get a significant benefit at higher levels.

An ally is a grappler-style monk. He struggles to do damage versus big monsters that are not practical to grapple. Versus humanoids he is tremendously effective.

Taenia: Would you mind listing everything you had giving you bonuses to Grapple? I can't come up with +15 to Grapple at 3rd level, even with +3 "BAB", +6 Str, +2 Improved Grapple, +1 Bred for War.

And I wouldn't mind knowing what all you had at higher levels as well, so I know what to be looking for.

There are a lot of items that give bonuses to grapple checks. Most are competence, but some are untyped.

Im actually torn now between a Brutal Pugilist Barbarian and a Tetori Monk. Tetoris will deal more damage due to increased unarmed damage and constrict causing more instances of damage, as well as being able to handle freedom of movement, teleporters, and incorporeal. Pugilists will have higher CMB and CMD, making it easier to grapple and harder for them to escape.

Im also very interested in utilizing the Limb Ripper feat, which wants a really high Str check, and the Pugilist can use Strength Surge to make it harder to resist.

Between the two, which is more suggested? The barbarian can still just cut stuff down if he can't grapple it, but the Tetori can't flurry.

Tetori.

Im actually torn now between a Brutal Pugilist Barbarian and a Tetori Monk. Tetoris will deal more damage due to increased unarmed damage and constrict causing more instances of damage, as well as being able to handle freedom of movement, teleporters, and incorporeal. Pugilists will have higher CMB and CMD, making it easier to grapple and harder for them to escape.

Im also very interested in utilizing the Limb Ripper feat, which wants a really high Str check, and the Pugilist can use Strength Surge to make it harder to resist.

Between the two, which is more suggested? The barbarian can still just cut stuff down if he can't grapple it, but the Tetori can't flurry.

tetori has a much higher CMD then a brutal pugilist. but CMB will be lower. keep in mind that a tetori can truestrike when going against something with an insanely high CMB to make sure they get the initial grapple.

Remember, that the Tetori also has Grab. Grab gives you a +4 bonus on any grapple check in addition to being able to combine a grapple with an attack.

This sort of makes me wish that they made special throws from the grapple to do lots of damage.

Like:

Piledriver - If you choose to use this ability, you may make a successful grapple check, if successful you slam your opponent head first into the ground causing them to take 4d6 + STR modifier, damage. You must currently have your opponent grappled (with you in control) to use this ability. A successful use of this ability automatically breaks the grapple and your opponent is left prone. This ability cannot be used on creatures that you cannot normally grapple, unless you have an ability that says otherwise (ghost touch, tetori's inescapable grasp, etc..)

Anyways, sorry for the rant. Yeah, the Tetori should be what you're looking for. Consider them more a submission / striking specialist (choking out the opponent, hitting them with a knee in the gut while grappling) then one who slams and tosses the opponent around.

This sort of makes me wish that they made special throws from the grapple to do lots of damage.

They do.

Neckbreaker, Choke Hold,Sleeper Hold, Jawbreaker, Bonebreaker

I don't know about all this junk, but your character definitely needs a feat where pyro goes off and Music playes whenever he enters the room...also he is met with thunderous applause if he stops to pose.

They do.

While those do indeed do damage and fit grappling admirably, they don't quite fit the "throw" / slam that I had intended. In any case, some of those may be feats the OP may want to check out. I knew they existed, but some will probably be things that would fit his build.

Taenia: Would you mind listing everything you had giving you bonuses to Grapple? I can't come up with +15 to Grapple at 3rd level, even with +3 "BAB", +6 Str, +2 Improved Grapple, +1 Bred for War.

And I wouldn't mind knowing what all you had at higher levels as well, so I know what to be looking for.

There is a feat worshipping an emperyeal lord gives you a +4 to grapples