Desna's Chosen

Game Master MythrilDragon

I'm fine with whatever. Rebuilds, new characters, new point buy, etc. I enjoy this game and want to keep it running and keep everyone happy as well.

I'm actually pretty happy with Kern as he is now. Sure, he wasn't much good in that last fight, but he can't be good at everything! And really, even though he couldn't harm the shadows, I still felt like he was managing to do something by assisting the others, even if mechanically, it made next-to-no difference.

And I totally get that characters can't be good at everything, I'm just sick of having to dump stat something to have a UNIQUE type character.

Which you HAVE to do with a 20 point buy(At least in my opinion). You look at your Serpent Skull game, every pc has something dumped(charisma mostly) except for Urza. Douena has an 8 Str, but that's because it's a gnome penalty. Still, she can't afford to raise it to 10 due to other abilities she needs to be stronger. Especially with her multiclassing. And we remember the whole "carrying capacity" issue that was discussed way back when. Not saying she'd put points in Str if it was a 25 point buy, just saying at least she'd have the option. And let's not forget Lorekeeper's take on dumpstatting charisma. You'd have a lot less of that I guarantee you. Not saying it completely wipes it out, because that's not realistic, but it's far less.

And I know some characters concepts are built with low ability scores and that's fine. I have pc's that are built with low scores. I dump charisma all the time. Mainly due to the fact that I had too. And I wouldn't change it now on any of them because their persona is already in tact. It wouldn't make sense. I can tell you if the point buy would've been higher initially, I wouldn't have dumped it practically at all. The only characters I would dump charisma on is a dwarf fighter/barbarian/monk type. Because it just wouldn't be needed for those classes in my opinion.

I'm just talking about those characters that have low ability scores for no other reason than the fact that, "Well I have to dump this because if I don't, I'm gonna be weak here and I don't want him to be weak in that area. Don't have a choice, gotta dump something." That stinks.

I'm just saying a 25 point buy helps in not having those negative stats.
Again with my Kingmaker game, nobody has less than a 10 in any ability, and it s great.

And a 10 still means you're not very good at whatever, but at least it keeps you from having a negative modifier. To me, that just makes it less fun when you're forced to dump something. I'd rather have a reason for it other than the fact that I have to.

Does 5 points really make that much of a difference whether good or bad? Probably not. But if you can have a pc with 14 dex instead of 10 and that's something the player truly wanted but couldn't get due to the lower point buy and it helps him/her enjoy the game a bit more, then I ask: What's the harm?

A 25 point buy is not overpowering in any form or fashion. Period. There is no argument that will ever convince me of that. Especially after what I mentioned above about our insane scores from our RL group and how several of my super-powered pc's still manage to die. Heck, a 25 point buy in my opinion is paltry. But at least I can see it as adequate.

Now having said all this, I can play with a 20 point buy and will. Like Gerald, I enjoy this campaign and like this group. And this is my favorite AP. I can deal, no biggie.

I just think you're able to define you character far greater with that 5 extra points, and you're not forced into dumping something just because you have no choice.

But that's just me.

A 25 point buy is not overpowering in any form or fashion.

I agree with you. I may prefer 20-point buy, but I don't actually have a problem with 25-point buy. I can have fun with both! :)

Okay so it seems that the consensus is to adjust to a 25 point buy. I guess the easiest way to do that is to just re build the stats, then at your 4th level bonus, and racial mods of course. Then update all the combat/saves/skills affected by the changes.

It seems like Belril, Kern, and Wren are fine with staying as is (with the new point buy adjust) while Sophy and Victor are ready to swap out for something new. What does Eponine want to do?

While we get the Characters adjusted and the new characters made, would you all be willing to do some closing out posts that exit Sophy and Victor from the adventure?

How do you all wish to proceed with the campaign....one more trek to Thistletop intent on finishing this or burn time and move on to the next part of the AP?

I've been giving it a lot of thought, and I think I'll stay with Eponine for now. She's not the most durable character, but I'll use the extra five points to try and remedy that.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other regarding finishing Thistletop. I would defer to those familiar with the AP; I only know about it at a very high level.

I think we have to finish it out, IMHO. We know the goblins and the major baddies were there for a reason...I think we have to figure out what the reason was to protect the town properly.

We know Nualia was trying to free a demon. Seems like the best way to protect the town would be to leave it imprisoned, maybe go back and tell the temple or the soliders in Magnimar so they can put a guard on it or have them tear down the bridge out to Thistletop to prevent people from getting in. It's counterintuitive to me to free the demon so we can fight it. If we fail (which, frankly, we've done over and over), then we've done Nualia's work for her.

I'm gonna continue to roll with Victor. It's just so dang not easy trying to implement a new pc.

Plus, I know Victor and I'm a little leery on whether I know the new character or not.

But I'll keep him on the back burner just in case.

Might as well see what happens. :)

As far as going back or not, I don't know. I know a large part of Victor never wants to go back after nearly having his life drained from him. But another part of him would feel that destroying such a creature would be only good for Sandpoint if it were to ever escape.

Victor is probably on the fence to be honest. More so on the side of not going only because of his near death experience and his ability to do nothing to such creatures. Especially considering there could be more.

But if everyone else went he would too. He just won't sit by and watch his allies walk straight into death. He has to protect them as best he can. Well, at least in his mind. :)

If Sophy's gone, our main voice of dissent to finishing Thistletop is gone too...

Belril can swing either way. But expect some grumbling at the retreat :D.

Knock yourselves out. Sophy's not going back, nor will whatever new PC I might come up with. I find the motivation for going beneath Thistletop to stir up trouble poorly-written to nonexistent beyond metagaming that there's an encounter worth XP down there. :P

I do wanna switch out a few feats whenever possible.

Improved Initiative
Skill Focus(Perception)
Bullseye Shot

Switch out the above three for the below three:

Weapon Specialization
Rapid Shot
Iron will

Let me know when/if it's cool.

Starting HP is equal to Max HD at 1st and 2nd level + Con + 4 free hp. Roll for levels 3-5 with a minimum of 1/2 a hit die.

Let me know if you have any questions.

I got one. Is the HP rule accurate?

The reason I ask is 'cause I've got Victor with only 5 hp's at 2nd level. But I sure have no problem adjusting it if necessary. :)

I made a couple changes to Wren. I added to Str, Con, and Wis with the 5 point buy. I switched out Empower spell with Intensify spell, and I switched out Resilient trait with Magical Lineage Fireball.

I do wanna switch out a few feats whenever possible.

Improved Initiative
Skill Focus(Perception)
Bullseye Shot

Switch out the above three for the below three:

Weapon Specialization
Rapid Shot
Iron will

Let me know when/if it's cool.

Go ahead and make the changes now.

Mythril DM wrote:

Starting HP is equal to Max HD at 1st and 2nd level + Con + 4 free hp. Roll for levels 3-5 with a minimum of 1/2 a hit die.

Let me know if you have any questions.

I got one. Is the HP rule accurate?

The reason I ask is 'cause I've got Victor with only 5 hp's at 2nd level. But I sure have no problem adjusting it if necessary. :)

Usually I only give max at first and then min of half at each level after that + the 4 bonus hp. I thought that giving the extra level of max on the new characters might help the party. If you want to max your 2nd level hp now that is fine with me.

Knock yourselves out. Sophy's not going back, nor will whatever new PC I might come up with. I find the motivation for going beneath Thistletop to stir up trouble poorly-written to nonexistent beyond metagaming that there's an encounter worth XP down there. :P

Joanna makes a good point, the only reason to go back is to kill a few more monsters and get some treasure. Story wise the immediate threat to Sandpoint from goblins, Tsuto, and Nualia is over. We can resolve the plot with out going back.

If the AP absolutely needed the party to go there I would have Sophy get and Oracle premonition seeing the town endangered in the future, but this in not the case.

I say we go ahead and move onto the next book after a few resolution posts in town that wrap up the Tsuto/Orik story and let Joanna swap out her character.

Hey, if everyone else wants to fight the demon, they can go ahead; I don't mind waiting. It's not like Sophy would have contributed anything but wand usage anyway. I don't enjoy unnecessary combats -- I do poorly enough in the ones I have no choice about -- but I know most players like testing their mettle.

EDIT: In general, I just feel that too often Paizo adventures pose the question Hey, want to go kill something just because it's there? and assume that the answer is going to be a resounding Yes!

I'm good with moving on to the next book.

I just can't see Victor wanting to go back for any reason.

Belril is updated. Very little changes, his Wisdom's gone down a little (I don't really see him as very wise with the way i've been role-playing him) and his Strength has crept up a little.

I've updated Eponine. With her attribute adjustments, her dexterity goes down by 1 (changing level 4 adjustment from dex to con) and her strength goes down by 1 (doesn't affect subordinate stats because they were odd numbers before). As a result, her constitution jumps from 10 to 14.

It sounds like we are going to advance to the next book. If there is going to be any time passing between books, Eppy will probably do some buying and selling of gear in that time.

Not to mention having an extreme makeover! New avatar, I see. :)

Heck yeah! I freaking love the new avatar, MoB! That's just freaking cool!

Thanks! I thought it was time for a fresh look for her, especially with the other aspects of makeover she's going through. :)

And speaking of changes, I might like to make some changes with the retraining rules as well. I'd like to retain her wizard school from universalist to diviner (foresight subschool), and train on hit points; she is just one hit point over the minimum for her classes and level. Also, retrain a racial trait: Elven Magic for Silent Hunter or Woodcraft. MDM, would you be willing to go with any of those?

Thanks! I thought it was time for a fresh look for her, especially with the other aspects of makeover she's going through. :)

And speaking of changes, I might like to make some changes with the retraining rules as well. I'd like to retain her wizard school from universalist to diviner (foresight subschool), and train on hit points; she is just one hit point over the minimum for her classes and level. Also, retrain a racial trait: Elven Magic for Silent Hunter or Woodcraft. MDM, would you be willing to go with any of those?

I too like the new Avatar! Go ahead and make the changes you have listed here, I want to use this "reboot" of the adventure to help get everyone characters they like and characters that will be more balanced for play.

There will be a break between books that will give you plenty of time to sell, trade, buy gear. Let's take care of that in the thread through some role play posts that we are going to use to segue from one book to the next. I will try to get the first of these up today it will be a chance to for Sophy to exit and to resolve what is going on with Orik, Tusto and Lyrie...the Thistletop story in general.

Kern is updated. I made very few changes other than those necessitated by the increase in point-buy. His Strength and Intelligence have gone up a little. The increase in Int means he had a few more skill points so I've bumped up a few of his skills.

I had originally thought to role-play out the trial and the testimony and questioning from the Justice. I think that instead I will just do the trail as a resolution DM Post and move on to the next part of the AP. However I do not want the outcome of the trial to be all my own decisions, I want the PC's to have some affect on how the trial goes.

To do that could I get each of you to post here some bullet points on what you want to make sure the Justice hears from you about

• Nualia
• Tsuto
• Lyire
• Orik
• Other things your character thinks are important

Please also give me two Diplomacy rolls. One listed as Testimony, the other as Orik's Defense.

I will use these notes and rolls to form my post and help determine the outcome of the the trials. If your character would not entertain questions or make statements on anything specif please note that as well. If you would not testify against the criminals don't make that roll, if you would not make statements defending Orik omit that roll.

You can make these as OOC post here in the discussion thread, spoiler if you want but not necessary to do so. Thanks.

Unless as a majority of players you would prefer to spend a few days in the game thread role playing the trial out.

Belril had the decency to at least keep his snort of contempt quiet as Wren lauded further praise upon the undeserving Orik.

Who slew Nualia in single combat? Who had the drive to force the others to return to Thistletop? Who was continually saving the lives of these adventurers as they stumbled from brilliant strategy to sheer incompetence. Twas not Orik...

LOL! I just died on this! Oh man, funny stuff. Soooo true. I guess that's what makes it so funny. :)

Belril has a serious inferiority complex and nothing IC has really made him lose it yet.

GM, Belril would only fill in the gaps where necessary with his fight with Nualia. He has no interest in Tsuto, Lyire and Nualia. In Orik's defence he will merely state that the town had best set a better example of accepting redemption if they want to survive for much longer in a place like Varisia.

Diplomacy 1 (Testimony): 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (8) - 1 = 7

Diplomacy 2 (Orik's Defence): 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (7) - 1 = 6

Yeah I saw those rolls coming. Belril's hearts not really in it due to detesting Orik somewhat, apparently...

Testimony 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (2) + 9 = 11
Defense 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (4) + 9 = 13

Eponine tells much of the story over again, her attention drifting from time to time and her narration swaying back and forth through the timeline. During her monologue, she emphasizes that Orik did abandon those with villainous intent toward Sandpoint as soon as it was an option, and when victory for the group was by no means certain. She finishes with a mumble about Sarenrae and redemption, but it isn't necessary well thought out and isn't done in a way that applies it to Orik's situation.

And the rolls keep on coming. I have a +9 modifier, and the best I could do is 13? Orik is doomed.

Victor will reiterate what Orik did for Sophy. He feels quite strongly, even being quite adamant about it which is unlike Victor, seeing how he normally is quite the easy going fella, that that is the most important thing he, or anyone for that matter, could ever do. He figures if sacrificing one's life for another, especially when one could've easily fled, isn't enough, then nothing is.

Testimony: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (16) + 1 = 17
Defense: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (15) + 1 = 16

I told you he felt quite strongly about it! Heck yeah! :)

Wren will happily tell what she observed about the baddies, especially the evil demon, and that the female Mage was offered surrender by Orik and she declined.

Wren's arguments have been laid out pertaining to Orik before. She would just reiterate that.

Testimony 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (19) + 1 = 20
Defense 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (15) + 1 = 16

Kern will tell what he knows and saw of Tsuto and Lyrie (and Nualia).

He is more passionate in his defence of Orik, focusing heavily on the importance of accepting redemption, and points out that there are many people who have done things in their past that they're not proud of, but are now considered upstanding citizens.

Testimony: 1d20 ⇒ 13
Defence: 1d20 ⇒ 6

Alas, Kern is really not a very good public speaker.

He is more passionate in his defence of Orik, focusing heavily on the importance of accepting redemption, and points out that there are many people who have done things in their past that they're not proud of, but are now considered upstanding citizens.

Eponine's face flushes to a shade of red to match her scarf when Kern says this, but she says nothing.

Sophy tells the story of everything that happened since they left Sandpoint to find Ameiko at Thistletop. She specifically makes a point of mentioning Chaddik's fate, determined that his name be cleared of the suspicion that had fallen on him of abandoning his post, or worse, during the goblin attack. Seeing as how Nualia is beyond anyone's justice but Pharasma's, she does what she can to make her actions seem not quite so horrible, although the mutated corpse they returned to town bears its own witness as to her ultimate goals. She also emphasizes that Tsuto and Lyrie at last surrendered to the inevitable rather than fighting to the bitter end, as they could have, and that Lyrie, at last, turned coat on Tsuto and gave them information about Nualia's plans.

When it comes time to speak of Orik, she emphasizes the disarray the heroes were in at the door of Thistletop, how Tsuto had ordered Orik to cut her down and how instead he had turned his sword against the monsters that threatened them; then how, when they had been trapped between Nualia in the basement and Tsuto on the stairs, how he had fought the half-elf to clear the passage to get Ameiko to safety.

Testimony 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (14) + 9 = 23
Defense 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (13) + 9 = 22

Just waiting on a response from Sophy in the game thread on the offer of the position of Master Librarian in the town of Sandpoint before I move on with the trial.

Working on a lengthy trial post...should be up later today.

Just letting everyone know I am leaving on a family trip / church conference and won't be able to post until a week from Monday. This should give Joana plenty of time to finish her new character and everyone else time to respond to Titus' gift and Orik. See you in a week, and thanks again for making this such a great group of characters that I wish I didn't have to put it on hold.

Halflings with Warslinger don't get to apply it to sling staff, according to recent Paizo FAQ. Bow dominance is so very hard-wired into the PF system :(

3d8 ⇒ (2, 1, 4) = 7

Bleah. :P

Apologies for holding up the game thread, guys. It's been a bit of a crazy week IRL, and I've been working on my new character, and Mythril kind of threw me with Orik's proposal. It took me some time to work out how Sophy might respond to it.

No worries, everyone in my house is sick except me, and I am in the midst of trying to decide what career path to follow....been a bit distracted by RL too.

Okay now I'm holding up the thread. I promise I'll get to it tonight or the very latest in the morning. But no later. The past couple days have been, well, days I guess. Sorry.

My posting is more than likely gonna be scarce over the next few days starting tomorrow. Due to a bit of vacation time and all. Should be good around Wednesday or Thursday though. Maybe I get something out there but in case I don't, you know why.

Have a safe and fun trip.

Thanks!

Just waiting for Joanna to finish up her new character, and I also need to get some prep done. I have had some computer issues that I had hoped to resolve by now, but I am now seeking another alternative to the problem. We should get going soon with book 2 of the AP. I will give everyone a few more days to resolve any posts surrounding Orik and Sophy, then I will make a time jump post that will span at least a few months of game time.

Wren, will you be taking the position you have been offered? Feel free to say no, I don't need you to to keep the thread going but if you chose not to I want to talk to you about what you have been doing in (or not in) Sandpoint during the time between AP books.

Wren will take the spot, DM. I forgot to follow up in the thread with that info.

I think i'd like Belril to bow out of the game, but I will happily keep playing. Any idea on a class I can play that won't step on anyone's toes?

As for Belril's exit, that is very easy to handle. Eagle Knights coming for him. Whether or not that is arranged by the Mayor to get the pesky, rude Halfling out of the town will be down to the DM ;).

If you are going to swap a character now is the time to do it. Belril doesn't have to leave, he can just become an NPC (controlled by you if needed) who keeps his job with the watch patrol. Unless you want to have him "taken away" from the local area. What ever you think is best.

As for a replacement, play what you want to play. Kern and Victor cover the fighter role, Wren is the arcane, Eponine is sort of a bard with out being a bard :) (Rogue Ranger Wizard), and Sophy is being replaced with a cleric. I guess the first question we need to figure out is how are we going to introduce the new character to the party? Is he/she coming from Magnimar with the cleric (she is coming to lend expertise about monuments and ruins at Thistletop), is he/she a new recruit in the watch serving under Kern, Victor, or Eponine? If Kern then a city guard type might work, if Victor a scout type might work, if Eponine either of the above types or even an arcane type might work (Magus?). Is he/she a new clergy type who has come to serve one of the gods/goddesses at the temple? That could lend to a cleric, druid, inquisitor, paladin. How the new character connects to the party for the next adventure might help suggest what class(classes) or race he/she will be. Do you want him/her to have a prior relationship with one of the existing characters? Old lover, former rival/friend, family?

I agree with the DM. Play anything you want, AK. This groups been around along enough that we should be able to deal with whatever role you want to fill.