Darkest Corners volume 2

Game Master Harakani


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Sorry all, life got on top of me. Coming into Christmas it isn't looking much better. Every time I go to make a map something jumps in the way.


Alright, hold on to your hats ladies - this is going to get crazy.
There are two maps (see above).
Each map is three dimensional.
Some maps have overlapping creatures sharing spaces.
If anything needs clarification, please call out.
Diene: not sure exactly where you wanted to be. The 60ft building has a flat roof.
That building has a flat roof so it doesn't break the 60ft LOS to the walls, the other buildings have pitched roofs.
There are ladders etc so you can descend safely, but treat it as difficult terrain.


Female I have nothing witty to write. :/ Half Elf The other half's AWESOME! Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 2/Monk (Kata Master) 4
Status:
HP 34/45 | AC 14 | T 14 | F 13 | CMD 24 | F +9 | R +5 | W +7 | Init +0 | Per +13 | Panache 2/2 | Rage 3/7 | Ki 4/4

Pssh? Descend safely? What kind of person do you take me for?


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

I totally need to make a Squirrelsuit for Diene. "Soaring Dragon Glidepunch!"

Well, waiting up for Ophelia. :)

And no worries, GM - I'm all chill as long as I see there is some activity in the profile. I only get nervous if no alias posted for 2+ weeks without a reason for the absence given ;)


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

Heads up: I'll be travelling tonight to both my own and my SO's family in turn, over the weekend, inmediately followed by a work trip until next tuesday evening.

I should be able to post, but irregulary. I appreciate if you feel you can wait for me, but if I seem to delay a scene, do feel free to bot me.


I'm going mad trying to understand whether the illusion bonus applies to this thing, or only to parts of it. In the interest of closing the scene, I'm very tempted to say yes, but I don't want to set a precedent...


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

Apologies :)

I think maybe if you can pinpoint the type of effect? E.g. maybe you want to treat it like a Shadow-based Spell?

It's technically an illusion, but partially real, as infused with shadow-stuff.
The save would still help, but there's a chance the effect doesn't go away(as per the percentage of damage still down, or percentage chance of effects working).

In that case Ophelia would succeed on the save, but you roll another percentage die to see if anything changes...she would still see what is happening, but either would, or would not be affected by it.

Just a suggestion ;)


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

Unfailing Logic:
An empiricist's grasp of facts and data teaches him to anchor himself in reality, granting resistance to even the most potent illusions. At 4th level, an empiricist gains a +2 insight bonus on all Will saving throws against illusion spells or spell-like abilities that allow a save to disbelieve their effects. In addition he can spend one point from his inspiration pool as an immediate action to use his Intelligence bonus instead of her Wisdom bonus on all such saves for one round. At 8th level, the empiricist's insight bonus increases to +4. At 16th level, he gains immunity to all illusion spells and spell-like abilities that allow a save to disbelieve the effects.

This is the complete wording for Ophelia's thingy if it helps!

Also ...

1d6 ⇒ 4

Investigators can spend 2 inspiration to get an 1d6 bonus on their save rolls (also immediate action so not compatible with above!), so if you want, we can just pretend Ophelia did that instead and save you the headache : )


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

@Ophelia: But it may come up later in the adventure, too, so maybe it's not bad to figure it out now and set a precedent that does not need to be set in stone ;)

I just figured Shadow-Spells would be a good starting point since they are semi-real, and it seems this stuff may be as well.

I am quite familiar with shadow-spell-shenanigans. Such as casting Deeper Darkness via Shadow Evocation, then explaining to your party members that it's an illusion, not real, getting them to disbelief so there is no effect for them. Then you can fight normally while the enemy has to deal with supernatural darkness.
(Plus lasts long enough for a dungeon run)


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

Wouldn't that just give you a 20% chance to still be screwed by the darkness? I'd say go with Barrow Haze and screw the team :P

(But yeah, figuring it out now might be worth it^^)


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

Nope, non-damaging effects are completely disabled in the case of shadow evocation. Attack-based effects are 20% likely to occur, such as getting entangled/grappled by, say, Black Tentacles.

If you disbelieve against a non-damage effect, you're fine :)

As said, it's already a complicated set of rules there, but yeah, shenanigans.

Honestly, the current situation seems almost identical to Phantasmal Web, which could serve as precedent - (often a standard pick for my full arcane chars).


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

Oooh that's nifty ...


the dilemma:
SO at the risk of giving too much away, it's a dream Haunt.
These use Haunt type rules (so not an illusion).
Haunts typically use Will saves.
Part of the effect is Phantasmal Web (as Daria cleverly picked).
I'm currently trying to decide if the Dream Haunt subtype thing overrides the Illusion thing, and they're saying the effect is as Phantasmal Web to save room.
Strict RAW would have the save work against the web component, I believe, but not the rest of it. That's pretty confusing, and probably not RAI, but I think I might go with it.


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

No need for anybody else to read that GM spoiler. (I think)

GM:
Well, going by this:
Quote:
A haunt can have virtually any effect identical to an existing spell effect, but often with different—and distinctly more frightening or unnerving—sensory or physical features than that spell effect normally has. (A haunt that has an effect not identical to an existing spell is certainly possible, but this requires designing a new spell effect.)
from the SRD, together with this
Quote:
Although haunts function like traps, they are difficult to detect since they cannot be easily observed until the round in which they manifest.

leads me to assume that while it IS a haunt, and originating from a creature, the fact that haunts generally function as traps, and can have an effect identical to existing spell effects, would lead me to assume that the same types and limitations should apply. If a haunt causes a room to be bathed in flames, that's still a fire effect, and fire resistance would still apply, as would, reasonably, other effects that give a bonus or penalty in regards to fire. So if the effect of the haunt "duplicates" an illusion-type spell, that effect should still have the proper subtypes, too, and as such, count as illusion. This is supported by the fact that even if it IS semi-real, we others are currently not affected. So if it does not have a representation in the real world and can be disbelieved, then it must be an illusion subtype unless you want to introduce a new school.

Thats my way of looking at it. It may help sway you either way, but it makes sense to me :)


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

Spoiler:
Haunts are notorious for stopping a game dead in its tracks :)


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

I'm thinking of trying out the wand of Magic Circle against Evil - while not really geared towards illusions and such it does have some bite against possession and mind affecting stuff in general. Also, since we have it, it can't hurt to try (except maybe our poor GM if this causes another headache :P).

But at the very least, hopefully, the effect falls under the evil umbrella for that +2 resistance for our flailing friend. And in the very best case it shuts down the hallucination for the duration of the spell - as it does with ghostly/demonic possession : )


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

@Illusionary/semi-real/shadow spiders - that would at least explain how one acquires lots of venom for cheap now that I think about it. It's one of the perfect products really - it breaks down the Will save which lowers the odds of the venom not working (being disbelieved!). In addition existing shivver addicts probably have a pretty lousy Will save to start with.

Lastly it explains the increase in deaths/ODs - given that good save rolls happen occasionally proper dosage is probably quite a bit harder. Imagine the following:

Shivver guy: "Hmm I wanna take some."

*globs/eats/smokes/injects/whatevers 1 dose of shadow-shivver*

*rolls high on will save*

*basically no/very reduced effect since disbelieved shadow-shivver*

"Eh wtf! A dud?"

*globs/eats/smokes/injects/whatevers 1 dose more of shadow-shivver*

*rolls high on will again*

*nothing/little happens again*

"Why is this crap so weak?! I just wanna get high/low/dreamy!"

*globs/eats/smokes/injects/whatevers 10 doses of shadow-shivver in frustration/desperation/annoyance*

*rolls low/average on will save*

*Brain stars pouring out of nostrils*

Thoughts?


Female I have nothing witty to write. :/ Half Elf The other half's AWESOME! Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 2/Monk (Kata Master) 4
Status:
HP 34/45 | AC 14 | T 14 | F 13 | CMD 24 | F +9 | R +5 | W +7 | Init +0 | Per +13 | Panache 2/2 | Rage 3/7 | Ki 4/4

I am honestly going "bluh?" over the whole mechanics of whatever's going on.


Me too.
I've decided I'm just going to wing it. No-one tell Paizo.


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

So I've decided to do something pretty dumb guys!


Throwing my hat into the GMing ring for at least a test run.

Any advice would be appreciated on how I do.


Female I have nothing witty to write. :/ Half Elf The other half's AWESOME! Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 2/Monk (Kata Master) 4
Status:
HP 34/45 | AC 14 | T 14 | F 13 | CMD 24 | F +9 | R +5 | W +7 | Init +0 | Per +13 | Panache 2/2 | Rage 3/7 | Ki 4/4

Saying "Paizo only" will do nearly zero to discourage optimizing and shenanigan-ary. (Nearly, because two of the most popular non-paizo, PoW and SoP, are quite broken for those who wish to abuse them.) Hell, it's quite possible to optimize your mundane gear of a level one budget to a point where you're practically a second or third spell level caster in terms of utility.

However, the general "Just please don't optimize guys", as long as you hold fast to that, should help.


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

Oh you are braver then me Isa! Good luck : )

Though I might have to check in and see what you got brewing, at the very least :P


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min
Darkest Corners GM wrote:

Me too.

I've decided I'm just going to wing it. No-one tell Paizo.

It's a good thing the police is all off-duty :P


@Isama: good luck :)


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

@Isama: One thing: One gets to preview the rolls before posting. It seems weird to penalize people for actually posting the rolls rather than preview and write "ok, point buy".

Otherwise, best of luck there!

_______________________

Ophelia: Your idea makes sense, but there's one weak point to the theory.

Those people taking the drugs would voluntarily fail their saves against the substances effects.
If I take drugs with the goal of submitting myself to whatever it provides, I don't try and resist it's effects.

Other than that, it's a very good idea.

_______________________

@GM: I am used to homebrew campaigns and content for my home groups.

"Wing it" is completely underestimated. In fact, all those rules? Guidelines, to make it fair and consistent.

The most important rule? Have fun.

*shrug*
I admit openly that I gladly wing things or make things up.
In my opinion, that makes for a smoother game and a better story.

That Blackguard supposed to serve as a Sub-Boss at the end of a story arc got taken out by an failed save and a lucky crit?
I'll still make sure they get a proper climactic boss fight - they won't even know they already won(as I'll make sure that climactic boss fight does not turn out differently), but it will be close, and they'll find extra loot to compensate for whatever resources they expended after they already "won".

Opinions may differ, but in my opinion, GM is first and foremost a storyteller, not a referee. If telling the story demands to locally bend a few aspects of the mechanics, then player enjoyment dictates it to be so.

Wing away!


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

@Voluntarily failing - Good point! Although, can you choose to fail a save you are not aware of?

The usual fort save vs drugs they could probably choose to flunk, but not sure about the will one they don't know about. Though if they could choose to fail a will save they would probably know something was up anyhow ...


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

I think they may not have the "mechanical" distinction of fort save vs will save.

They used drugs.
Something is happening with their mind.

They can try to resist it, or not.
Now, I know I couldn't tell if I was trying to resist the call of the shrooms "physically"(using my fortitude) or "mentally"(using my will).

It is a basic physical process but it affects the mind. In my opinion, pathfinder simply did a streamlined handling to make up mechanics.

As in, the 20 Charisma strong-personality Sorcerer with weak Constitution would fail against the LSD-induced trip, but the Barbarian with 18 Constitution and a personality-dumpstat handles it like a pro?
/endrant/

Either way: I think they are just aware something is happening, and will not resist it. They won't know if they make a fortitude or will save, just that they could try to fight it, which a druggie would not, imho.


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

Aye, but the Will save would be to notice if the drug is even real or not - I mean if you bit a popsicle you would surely get a will save for that right even if you were not trying to resist it :P?

Which coincidentally leads towards that interesting question about quasi-real bridges and stuff which is really interesting but prone to eat up pages almost as badly as alignment talks!

So on another topic; new theory as hinted on IC. What about an actual Material Plane/Shadow Plane rift? Or something like that...


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min
Magic Circle Against Evil, paragraph 2 wrote:
This spell has an alternative version that you may choose when casting it. A magic circle against evil can be focused inward rather than outward. When focused inward, the spell binds a non-good called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. The creature cannot cross the circle's boundaries. If a creature too large to fit into the spell's area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only.

Which means we aren't sure exactly what part of the ward that is currently keeping the bad stuff at bay. It could be the fact that it blocks out possession/mental assault. Or the fact that it keeps evil summons away. Or that it can bind extraplanar entities :P


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

@drug real or not: uhm...i don't really think so. I don't know if you have experience with psychoactive drugs. I did some...experimentation, for science, when I was younger.

After a wardrobe turned into a morphing mirror, I forgot my gender, and a god(not the god) was talking to me about things of great importance, I can assure you that my judgement on "real" or "unreal" was sufficiently broken that I was sitting down on the sidewalk at 2:30 am demanding the cigarette dispensing machine come to me instead of the other way round.

KNOWING what you expect to happen will pretty much void any kind of save you would have, because if something seems unreal, or real, for that matter, it could well be because the substance has already taken effect.


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

Ah but the crux is that you would make your will save (or lack of it) before any effects came to into being. That is, uninhibited, you probably have a chance to notice if you are actually drinking (shiver is an boiled essence, but I suppose you could ingest it in other ways. Seems a bit too much to lick off stamps though!) something or merely swallowing air (not to mention if it is injected, that could be troublesome!).

But a fair point is that someone already under the influence of shiver would probably not notice if they got more actual shiver or some fake...


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

Aye. But, alas...the onset is tricky. With some things, you could believe that you did not, in fact, drink anything, when actually, you did.

As an aside, it seems you are talking about a purely illusionary product. I was expecting either a real base product vastly diluted, then mixed with the dreamstuff, or, more likely, a placebo mixed with the substance.

If you could get people high by selling them dreams, you wouldn't be a drug dealer, you would be a politician/tv preacher/wall street broker.
I mean, IF they buy it, sober, there needs to be SOMETHING. A physical product, which they consume.

What I meant is that after consumption of said physical product(which may be a placebo mixed with the illusionary/semi-real substance), any bets are off. They expect to be drugged, they expect certain effects...anything that deviates from the usual experience could be because of the drugs, and if some effect manifests, they would not fight it.


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

True. That does beg the question; how would a 20% real liquid (lets go with the liquid assumption for now) behave?

As in a shadow-liquid would appear as normal liquid until tested, but if placed on a scale it would weight substantially less (as inanimate objects auto disbelieve) but a person watching that scale might still think that was normal?

As for dilution would would still need an equivalent payload to the real thing, since the shadowstuff only just matches it. Though that begs the question of how much payload there usually is an one dose of it... And would you make shadowstuff venom which you distil (but that process is described as quite hard, so I guess the savings would be low-ish?) or shadowstuff ready-made shiver, which would presumably mean that the normal non-active ingredients are also fake?


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

Isama's just hanging out seeing what Dia knows :)


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes
Daria "Mia" Hearth wrote:
@Isama: One thing: One gets to preview the rolls before posting. It seems weird to penalize people for actually posting the rolls rather than preview and write "ok, point buy".

Well if people want to cheat they always can. For me it was a fun way of adding a little bit of risk to choosing to roll and the penalty is tiny, 19 point buy vs 20 point buy is more of an irritant than anything else :).


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise
Isama Zenj wrote:
Daria "Mia" Hearth wrote:
@Isama: One thing: One gets to preview the rolls before posting. It seems weird to penalize people for actually posting the rolls rather than preview and write "ok, point buy".
Well if people want to cheat they always can. For me it was a fun way of adding a little bit of risk to choosing to roll and the penalty is tiny, 19 point buy vs 20 point buy is more of an irritant than anything else :).

Well, theoretically.

Technically, my favorite 20 point buy is to go with 4 times 14, and two 10's.(or 12/8).
With 19, you can't afford that final 14.
If you want 16/14/14/10/10/10, thats also 20.
As well as 16/16/10/10/10/10...20. Being one point short there is more of a penalty than you'd think ;)

But you are right that it won't REALLY matter for a one-shot adventure, just wanted to mention it - for longer games/Adventure Paths, getting "penalized" during creation has long-term impact(one reason you automatically get max HP, unlike NPC's), so seems less cheaty to me(personal opinion) than trying to get a solid starting position.


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

Fair enough. I do like the little bit of risk vs potentially high reward mechanic though. For me rolling stats is fun if I have a good point buy fallback to use as a floor but I wanted to throw in a little bit of consequence to that.

Maaaybe getting 21 points if you don't roll but 20 as the backup might mitigate that (so it feels like a BONUS to not roll instead of a PENALTY to roll). Something to think about.


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

Aye, giving a bonus point rather than penalty would be an incentive.

Or do what Diene did if you do decide to keep rolling for the next recruitment...make people roll in order, to make the potential over-poweredness of roll results more of a "work with it"-basis rather than cherry-picking ;)

STR: 4d6 ⇒ (5, 3, 4, 4) = 16 = 13
DEX: 4d6 ⇒ (5, 1, 5, 6) = 17 = 16
CON: 4d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 5, 6) = 19 = 16
INT: 4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 6, 6) = 16 = 15
WIS: 4d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 3, 3) = 13 = 13
CHA: 4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 3, 5) = 18 = 15
Reroll 1: 2d6 ⇒ (2, 5) = 7

Well, a decent melee rogue, there. Or Bard. Or Ranger. Or someone going for Arcane Archer. Even a Barbarian/Sorcerer going Dragon Disciple could work...

But while it is a 40 point buy(would also be 35+ without rerolls=>11 Wisdom), I have to think about what I can make with it, rather than cherry-pick where to put those rolls(thus entering the area of the "optimization" you mentioned).

It's a bad example because I rolled very good, there :P
But I think you know what I mean(e.g. getting crap con would make frontlining less attractive, getting 18 Wisdom would very much make divine casting or monk-ness attractive etc...)


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

Rolling in order is like the opposite of point buy in terms of character creation philosophy. Roll and assign is a middle ground. I'd only use rolling in order if I knew all the players in the game were experienced and wanted to or were willing to go with it, not a general recruitment.

Another place to use it might be a recruitment for a very popular AP though. GMs get so many recruits for something like that that it would be a good way to filter a lot of people out who don't want to adjust to their rolls.

4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s is a fairly generous rolling method in any case. You could still get screwed obviously but the dice really have to hate you in the moment to do so and that's why I put in the point buy fallback.


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

Roll and assign may seem like middle ground, but usually thats hands down better than point buy. Especially with the generous method, as you yourself say, that you propose.
The reason I bring it up in the first place is that with stats governing everything from skills, to attack/defense/damage/DC's...you may get characters stronger than you want as inexperienced GM.

Consider it this way: Advanced template basically gives +4 to all attributes, for an effective +2 bonus on everything.
that +2 on attacks? equal to 2 levels in a full-bab-class, just as an outstanding example.

What I meant is that "rolling in order" is not the only option you offer, since you DO offer point buy, side-by-side.
So rolling in order would be a chance to get a superior set to work with, rather than almost be a guarantee it is so.
Roll in order would be bad if it was the only option available though, I agree.

Your method also tends to create very high stats, on average. If you mean to use only point buy, two others would be:
4d6, drop lowest, do 2 sets, pick either.
or
3d6, roll 10(12) times, pick 6 highest.


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

I see what you're saying. Roll in order, point buy as failsafe.

It's all good though.


Female I have nothing witty to write. :/ Half Elf The other half's AWESOME! Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 2/Monk (Kata Master) 4
Status:
HP 34/45 | AC 14 | T 14 | F 13 | CMD 24 | F +9 | R +5 | W +7 | Init +0 | Per +13 | Panache 2/2 | Rage 3/7 | Ki 4/4

I just did it in order because I'm crazy like that. :P


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

Are we getting out of the alley then?


Female I have nothing witty to write. :/ Half Elf The other half's AWESOME! Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 2/Monk (Kata Master) 4
Status:
HP 34/45 | AC 14 | T 14 | F 13 | CMD 24 | F +9 | R +5 | W +7 | Init +0 | Per +13 | Panache 2/2 | Rage 3/7 | Ki 4/4

I think the answer to that question is "yes and no." We're going to move the two survivors to safety, then take up spots to see if anyone comes to hide the body.


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

Sounds like a plan.


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

Happy holidays everyone!


Female Construct (Clockwork) | Investigator 6 | Hp 26/33 | AC 18, Touch 13, FF 16 | CMD 20 | Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +6 | Per +15 | Init +6 | Active: See Invisible, Mutagen; 60m. Ablative Barrier 6h/30damage. Magic Circle against Evil 50min

Happy holidays : )


Female I have nothing witty to write. :/ Half Elf The other half's AWESOME! Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 2/Monk (Kata Master) 4
Status:
HP 34/45 | AC 14 | T 14 | F 13 | CMD 24 | F +9 | R +5 | W +7 | Init +0 | Per +13 | Panache 2/2 | Rage 3/7 | Ki 4/4

Merry Christmas. :)


Female Halfling Bard(Archeologist) 6 | 35/45 HP | AC21 Touch=15 FF=17(Uncanny Dodge) | CMD 15 | Fort=6 Refl=11(Evasion) Will=6 | Initiave 5; Perception 16/18(Trap Spotter) |
Skills:
Knowledge (all)10/12 | 17 Stealth | 18 Disable Device | 9 Acrobatics | 8 Escape Artist/Sleight of Hand | 12/15 Diplomacy/Bluff | 7 Spellcraft/Linguistics | 12/27 Disguise

Happy belated Yule!


Human Urban Druid/6 | HP 34/39 | AC 23 T 13 FF 21 | F 6 R 5 W 12 (14) | Per +12 (14) | Init +6 | Special: Owl's wisdom 2 minutes, Barkskin 60 minutes, Long Strider 60 minutes, Spider climb 15 minutes

I'm at a dead end again honestly. There's no place to take the addicts. They're healthy after all.

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