Dain GM |
Whatever it is - the thing is roughly 50 feet off the starboard side -
Ini is as follows -
Dior
Arasmes
Clari
Kae
Shae
Brett
The Monster
Ariarh
Isani -
Who is playing Arasmes - for now I am guessing it's Ariarh - FYI - Arasmes' spells on one of the earlier posts - also - he has used his special ability to summon monsters 3 times today.
Good hunting!
Ariarh Kane |
Dior will take to the sky, 50 ft into the air, flying fast. He will then hold action.
Arasmes will summon small water elementals: 1d3 ⇒ 3 and commands them to attack the creature/monster moving toward them in the water.
Water Elemental 1:
Slam Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 11
Damage: 1d6 + 5 ⇒ (4) + 5 = 9
Water Elemental 2:
Slam Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (19) + 7 = 26
Damage: 1d6 + 5 ⇒ (5) + 5 = 10
Water Elemental 3:
Slam Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (8) + 7 = 15
Damage: 1d6 + 5 ⇒ (1) + 5 = 6
Sorry, Shae (& Ras since it's his character), I only just remembered you suggested the elements be used for pushing the boat faster ... and the GM won't allow me to retcon it. :/
Dain GM |
Dior will take to the sky, 50 ft into the air, flying fast. He will then hold action.
Arasmes will summon small water elementals: 1d3 and commands them to attack the creature moving toward them in the water.
Water Elemental 1:
Slam Attack: 1d20+7
Damage: 1d6+5Water Elemental 2:
Slam Attack: 1d20+7
Damage: 1d6+5Water Elemental 3:
Slam Attack: 1d20+7Slam Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 11
Damage: 1d6 + 5 ⇒ (4) + 5 = 9Water Elemental 2:
Slam Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (19) + 7 = 26
Damage: 1d6 + 5 ⇒ (5) + 5 = 10Water Elemental 3:
Slam Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (8) + 7 = 15
Damage: 1d6 + 5 ⇒ (1) + 5 = 6
Damage: 1d6+5
Sounds good - I might have tried to push the boat - but, as Caesar said "The Die is Cast" - very nice double meaning here...
Shaezon Silverfall |
Seeing Arasmes Actions Shaezon says
"Very well. Everyone brace yourself "
Shaezon cast Summon monster III to summon 1d3 ⇒ 2 Small Water elementals
He then says to them in
They obediently grab the craft and push as hard and as fast as they can in the direction indicated.
Double moving each round they can move the craft 180 feet each round for 9 rounds.I don't know if you can run and push at the same time per the rules, but if they can they move 240' per round instead. Each one has a strength of 14 and are effectively dragging the boat as opposed to carrying. SHould make the process easier.
Small Water Elemental CR 1
XP 400
N Small outsider (elemental, extraplanar, water)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+6 natural, +1 size)
hp 13 (2d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +0
Immune elemental traits
OFFENSE
Speed 20 ft., swim 90 ft.
Melee slam +5 (1d6+3)
Special Attacks drench, vortex (DC 13, 10–20 ft.), water mastery
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +3; CMD 13
Feats Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +4, Escape Artist +4, Knowledge (planes) +1, Perception +4, Stealth +8, Swim +14
Languages Aquan
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Drench (Ex)
The elemental's touch puts out non-magical flames of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals elemental's HD).
Vortex (Su)
A water elemental can create a whirlpool as a standard action, at will. This ability functions identically to the whirlwind special attack, but can only form underwater and cannot leave the water.
Water Mastery (Ex)
A water elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. These modifiers apply to bull rush and overrun maneuvers, whether the elemental is initiating or resisting these kinds of attacks.
Dain GM |
Seeing Arasmes Actions Shaezon says
"Very well. Everyone brace yourself "
Shaezon cast Summon monster III to summon 1d3 Small Water elementals
He then says to them in ** spoiler omitted **
They obediently grab the craft and push as hard and as fast as they can in the direction indicated.
Double moving each round they can move the craft 180 feet each round for 9 rounds.I don't know if you can run and push at the same time per the rules, but if they can they move 240' per round instead. Each one has a strength of 14 and are effectively dragging the boat as opposed to carrying. SHould make the process easier.** spoiler omitted **...
Very Important Question for Shaezon:
Yeah - so, as I've always had to find out when I summon a monster - the spell takes 1 full round to cast - which means (as I have always been told) - that it be completed at the end of a full round action - and the monster you summon appears and acts on your next initiative - as the casting time is a "Full Round" action.
This is an important distinction, because as Arasmes is actually a summoner - he can use the "Summon Monster" "Ability" - to summon monsters as a "standard action" - which is why his monsters popped in the same round as his initiative.
If he used the spell, instead of the ability - then his Summoned Monsters would have popped in next round - which is probably why Ariarh/Isani had him use the "Ability" as opposed to the spell - even though with the spell he had "augment summoning" - which doesn't work on the spell-like ability.
If you can summon monsters who attack on the same round that you start to summon them - this not only negates the value of the Summoner's Special Ability "Summon Monster" (which allows them to have this as a Standard Action, rather then a full round) - but it is also contrary to 10 years of playing clerics who who summon monsters that go off on the round after I cast.
If anyone can show me evidence that I'm wrong on this matter - please let me know - I am will to concede an error - but I really don't see how I could be wrong on this one.
That said: Shae - knowing that - what would you like to do? The same thing that goes off on your round, or - perhaps something else? Please let me know - thank you.
Until I get the word from Shaezon - I'll delay "the monsters" action until that point, but if I don't here from someone by 9:00 PM Eastern Standard - then Shae's action go on his next round.
Also - to All Spellcasters -
I don't know if you guys noticed this - via my consistent postings about the weather - but I don't think it came up. So - here you go:
Concentration Check -
Violent Motion
If you are on a galloping horse, taking a very rough ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rapids or in a storm, on deck in a storm-tossed ship, or being pitched roughly about in a similar fashion, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell. If the motion is extremely violent, such as that caused by an earthquake, the DC is equal to 20 + the level of the spell you're casting.
Dain GM |
Just fyi the paizo developers ruled augment summoning works with the spell like ability. For summoners. I can find the link to where they said it if you want me to.
Currently I'm looking at both the Feat - and Errata under "Summoner" - neither mentions Augment Summoning effecting creatures via a "Spell like Ability" - and the Feat specifically says the Spell, not the spell-like ability.
Also - this use of the rule does not seem consistent with earlier postings, in which you reminded me that the Cali as a "Summoned Creature Spell" would gain "Augment Summoning Bonuses" - but, then - as Cali is not summoned via the standard Eidolon ritual - that should theoretically mean if she enjoyed the bonus of "Augment Summoning" - as she were summoned by the spell - not the ritual - then she would vanish as per the spell, not the ritual - which would keep her around for quite a while.
In either case - Augment Summoning the Feat specifically says "Spells" - and doesn't mention spell-like abilities. This leaves me in a bind, as I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
For now - for this "Stage" of the battle - I'm going to have to rule that it only effects the spell.
Don't worry too much, though - this is one little monster - and the real fight is later. By then we should have these details figured out - but I'm not going to have them retconned now - as the attacks were already made.
Like I said, though - this is a long fight - so, for right now - let it ride as it is, and we'll get it fixed as soon as we can.
Dain GM |
Seeing Arasmes Actions Shaezon says
"Very well. Everyone brace yourself "
Shaezon cast Summon monster III to summon 1d3 Small Water elementals
He then says to them in ** spoiler omitted **
They obediently grab the craft and push as hard and as fast as they can in the direction indicated.
Double moving each round they can move the craft 180 feet each round for 9 rounds.I don't know if you can run and push at the same time per the rules, but if they can they move 240' per round instead. Each one has a strength of 14 and are effectively dragging the boat as opposed to carrying. SHould make the process easier.** spoiler omitted **...
Also - I'm not sure how this works.
First - the boat you're in is at least 200 lbs - if not more.
You have 8 medium sized creatures in the boat, including gear. If I assume that each individual weighs (including gear) 125 lbs - that would mean that the total weight of the boat would be (including passengers and gear - on a very low end here) 1,200 lbs - if not more (and likely more).
I can certainly allow them to "assist" in the speed of the boat - but they won't be able to move the boat as fast as 180 feet a round - not two "small sized" water elementals. As for the assist speed - your "sailboat" is currently able to travel at 3 miles an hour. With your aid I can triple this speed for 9 rounds, if you like - but that would equate to (working backwards from Rates of Travel via "hustle speed" which sets the speed at 6 miles an hour) to be 60 feet a round.
But that is being very generous - considering that the crew is certainly heavier (including equipment) then what I'm looking at so far. Also - the terrain would be "Difficult" because of the storm - which I am not even bothering to factor in at this time.
Shaezon Silverfall |
Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character’s maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character’s Strength in the heavy load column of Table 7–4 (reposted below for str 14).
...
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.
Heavy load for Str 14 creature is 175. Can push or drag (175X5) 875 lbs. I'm assuming "floating" is a "favorable condition" so they can actually push or drag 1750 lbs each. Times two such creatures is 3500 lbs they can push or drag. Not to mention they are in their natural element, though mechanically that only helps if they are attacking or using CMB/CMD.
Edit: Also, size isn't relevant, only strength.
Dain GM |
Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character’s maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character’s Strength in the heavy load column of Table 7–4 (reposted below for str 14).
...
A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them by half or more.Heavy load for Str 14 creature is 175. Can push or drag (175X5) 875 lbs. I'm assuming "floating" is a "favorable condition" so they can actually push or drag 1750 lbs each. Times two such creatures is 3500 lbs they can push or drag. Not to mention they are in their natural element, though mechanically that only helps if they are attacking or using CMB/CMD.
First - the storm is not favorable conditions, instead - it is Difficult Terrain - which effectively halves your movement.
Second - though you have 2 different creatures - I need a ruling on how to "combine" their carrying capacity. As I understand it - you can "Aid" another with most checks. What you're suggesting is that two characters with a strength of 14 can effectively drag/push half a ton in normal conditions - which just doesn't seem right.
Finally - assuming you could combine the total drag/push rolls together - in the end, the problem is that you'd have your characters "pushing" something that is effectively over their "medium load" for a total of "double movement speed".
They can help with the movement - yes - but you cannot make them move the a sailboat at 180 feet per round.
To put it accurately - that would be like moving the busted down, leaky rowboat with a sail in a stormy sea at 20 miles an hour - assuming that didn't destroy the boat outright (180 feet a round IS roughly 20 miles an hour, by the way).
To put this in perspective - I have did a little research to compare this with a regular motorboat - which I have included here:
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
Your speed and performance will vary. The water and wind conditions affect the performance of the boat on every outing. On my 26' Express Cruiser I usually cruise at 22 MPH at 3200 RPM's, but on windy days, I can be going as slow as 16 MPH at the same engine speed.
Source(s):40+ yrs boating experience, Boating Safety Instructor, member of United States Power Squadron, owner of 60' motor yacht and 26' Express Cruiser.
That said - 60 feet a round seems more then fair to me - that is still roughly 6 miles an hour - which is 3 times the speed of what your boat can and should do on a nice day with favorable conditions.
Shaezon Silverfall |
They're water elementals pushing a boat together and in the same direction. Their carrying capacity is grotesquely greater than what you yourself said was the weight. They're water elementals in water. "Choppy" would be a minor inconvenience at most. It's a perfectly reasonable argument.
However, 60' per round is a reasonable compromise.
Dain GM |
Meanwhile -
Okay – the “monster” attacks!
First – I am going to have Arasmes’s Water Elementals do their damage – you can see the effects now.
One of them hit – the others – didn’t.
That said, out of the deep the creature rises. It is – as you may have guessed – a Dire Crocodile.
Seeing the elementals that attack it, the creature instantly turns and bites the Elemental that attacks it.
Bite
1d20 + 18 ⇒ (10) + 18 = 28
IF he hits
3d6 + 19 ⇒ (4, 4, 5) + 19 = 32
Then – the creature attacks the second elemental that is near it with a fairly mundane “Tail Slap” –
Tail Slap
1d20 + 13 ⇒ (5) + 13 = 18
IF he hits
4d6 + 6 ⇒ (2, 1, 1, 6) + 6 = 16
I believe the 2 water elementals are now defeated - the third one is still up, though.
Dain GM |
They're water elementals pushing a boat together and in the same direction. Their carrying capacity is grotesquely greater than what you yourself said was the weight. They're water elementals in water. "Choppy" would be a minor inconvenience at most. It's a perfectly reasonable argument.
However, 60' per round is a reasonable compromise.
Yeah - sorry, it was one of those decisions that makes things kind of frustrating - because they don't really have many hard rules on the subject. I had to make it run fast and loose here... still - it is a lot faster then the boats 20 feet a round, though. Also - I think we disagree on the water right now, and how severe the storm is, and how crappy the boat is.
Shaezon Silverfall |
Shaezon Silverfall wrote:Yeah - sorry, it was one of those decisions that makes things kind of frustrating - because they don't really have many hard rules on the subject. I had to make it run fast and loose here... still - it is a lot faster then the boats 20 feet a round, though. Also - I think we disagree on the water right now, and how severe the storm is, and how crappy the boat is.They're water elementals pushing a boat together and in the same direction. Their carrying capacity is grotesquely greater than what you yourself said was the weight. They're water elementals in water. "Choppy" would be a minor inconvenience at most. It's a perfectly reasonable argument.
However, 60' per round is a reasonable compromise.
It's fine. Rule 0 takes precedence. I'm just glad I could contribute something.
Ariarh Kane |
Concentration check: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (19) + 10 = 29
Ariarh casts Hydraulic Torrent (standard action, duration instantaneous, range 60 ft, area 60 ft line, no saving throw) and directs the powerful stream of water toward the dire crocodile to batter it hard, pushing it backward, (against creatures and movable objects this stream acts as a bull rush).
1d20 + 10 ⇒ (17) + 10 = 27 (CMB for this bull rush is equal to your caster level plus your WIS modifier)
Arasmes ibn'Fayad |
Arasmes ibn'Fayad wrote:Just fyi the paizo developers ruled augment summoning works with the spell like ability. For summoners. I can find the link to where they said it if you want me to.Currently I'm looking at both the Feat - and Errata under "Summoner" - neither mentions Augment Summoning effecting creatures via a "Spell like Ability" - and the Feat specifically says the Spell, not the spell-like ability.
Also - this use of the rule does not seem consistent with earlier postings, in which you reminded me that the Cali as a "Summoned Creature Spell" would gain "Augment Summoning Bonuses" - but, then - as Cali is not summoned via the standard Eidolon ritual - that should theoretically mean if she enjoyed the bonus of "Augment Summoning" - as she were summoned by the spell - not the ritual - then she would vanish as per the spell, not the ritual - which would keep her around for quite a while.
In either case - Augment Summoning the Feat specifically says "Spells" - and doesn't mention spell-like abilities. This leaves me in a bind, as I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
For now - for this "Stage" of the battle - I'm going to have to rule that it only effects the spell.
Don't worry too much, though - this is one little monster - and the real fight is later. By then we should have these details figured out - but I'm not going to have them retconned now - as the attacks were already made.
Like I said, though - this is a long fight - so, for right now - let it ride as it is, and we'll get it fixed as soon as we can.
Cali wouldn't qualify for the Ritual summon where she stays here permanently. She would qualify for the Summon Eidolon spell which is different and she is only here for 1 minute per level and then goes home. Also here is Jason Bulmahn the lead designer for Paizo specifically saying yes it works.
Can Augment Summoning also affect monsters summoned through this Spell-Like Ability?Yes
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Real easy yes so no worries.
Dain GM |
Concentration check: 1d20+10
Ariarh casts Hydraulic Torrent (duration instantaneous, range 60 ft, area 60 ft line, no saving throw) and directs the powerful stream of water toward the dire crocodile to batter it hard, pushing it backward, (against creatures and movable objects this stream acts as a bull rush).
1d20+10 (CMB for this bull rush is equal to your caster level plus your WIS modifier)
His CMD is actually 36 - so that does not effect him.
To all luckily, the creature is just a modest guard, so it shouldn't be too hard :)
Isani Isu |
Concentration check (DC 17): 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (15) + 7 = 22
Casts Spiritual Weapon (level 2 spell, standard action, range 130ft, duration 1 round/level, saving throw none) and a magic weapon of force appears in the shape of a glowing scimitar (striking as a spell and not as a weapon).
First attack/3: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (12) + 8 = 20
Damage: 1d8 + 1 ⇒ (2) + 1 = 3
Dain GM |
Concentration check (DC 17): 1d20+7
Casts Spiritual Weapon (level 2 spell, standard action, range 130ft, duration 1 round/level, saving throw none) and a magic weapon of force appears in the shape of a glowing scimitar (striking as a spell and not as a weapon).
First attack/3: 1d20+8
Damage: 1d8+1
With an AC of 21 - that just missed!
I believe it is Dior's turn - though he may not want to get too close...
Ka'etil Malas'rae |
Ka'etil shouts, "Stall it!"
Kae braces his Glaive in case the creature attacks. If you hae Brace, Readying an action does double damage if the target charges. If there isn't a charge, then the attack is a normal readied action to attack.
Arasmes ibn'Fayad |
Gotcha, sorry I forgot Dior goes right before me.
Arasmes takes Kae's words to hear to try and "stall" it and casts Slow on the creature. Concentration DC22 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (20) + 12 = 32 With a force of will, Arasmes attempts to slow the creature's metabolic processes down.
Slow DC 18 Will save to negate.