Reflex Saves

So, reflex saves are obviously designed around the idea of someone being fast enough to avoid an aoe or other dextrous challenges. However, what happens when you literally have nowhere you can move to that is not effected by the aoe? For instance the mage( for some reason ) decides to make a dome of stone( Wall of Stone ) around you and himself. Next round he casts fireball in the enclosed area. He sized the dome such that the entire domed in area was within the aoe of the fireball. Do you still get a reflex save? Technically, there is nowhere you could move to to avoid the aoe.

Thanks!

In my game, no save. I don't know if that is official though.

use the mage as a temporary shield

RaW they still get a save. That much is clear.

As for having no where to move, that depends on how you picture the event. There is a reason a reflex save does not require a character to actually move most of the time. A fireball does not need to fill up every inch of the space in the area of the spell. Real flames do not do so, and it is concievable that someone with extraodinary reflexes could avoid them. I might impose a circumstantial penalty against their reflex save for the crafty wall of stone, but I would not disallow it.

use the mage as a temporary shield

Due to the aoe of the fireball the mage is also completely surrounded in flames, thus using him as a shield doesn't work out so well. On would hope he has planned for this eventuality...

A reflex save does not require that you move (as in move on the field) as there are no rules in place for moving your fig if you succeed. Reflex save means you shield yourself from the brunt of the blast, maybe you raise your shield, or even just your cloak to reduce the effect. Space, walls, and floors have no effect on shielding yourself from damage.

Think of it this way, Roguey McRogurson sees the wizard cast a spell and a ball of red light shoots out. Roguey has seen this before and on instinct he drops to the ground and curls up in a little ball, back facing the source of the blast. That was a successful reflex saving throw.

RaW they still get a save. That much is clear.

As for having no where to move, that depends on how you picture the event. There is a reason a reflex save does not require a character to actually move most of the time. A fireball does not need to fill up every inch of the space in the area of the spell. Real flames do not do so, and it is concievable that someone with extraodinary reflexes could avoid them. I might impose a circumstantial penalty against their reflex save for the crafty wall of stone, but I would not disallow it.

That seems kind of like allowing an unconscious character to count their dex in their ac because they might randomly spasm while someone is trying to hit them... Maybe it's just me. I assume that if a spells aoe encompasses an area, then it encompasses the entire area... Oh, well. Just wondering if there was any errata or official call on situations like that.

Maybe the save accounts for laying down flat or stop drop and roll?

In general, as a house rule when I GM, there is no save if no avoidance is possible.

In the instance described, the only possible way I could see a save in that dome is laying flat and only having the 3rd degree burns on 60-70 percent of your body.

That seems kind of like allowing an unconscious character to count their dex in their ac because they might randomly spasm while someone is trying to hit them... Maybe it's just me. I assume that if a spells aoe encompasses an area, then it encompasses the entire area... Oh, well. Just wondering if there was any errata or official call on situations like that.

I think it is exactly as Koloko describes. Sure it encompasses the entire area. However, if you shielded your face with your shield, you only have burn marks on your chest instead of both your chest and your face. If you curl up as a ball on the moment of impact, only your back is burned by acid etc.

It's all a matter of envisioning stuff. When you are attacking an enemy you do not really hit once every 6 seconds. You're hitting each other, circling around each other etc and the end result is X damage (or not). Imagination is key.

The rules are a static representation of a dynamic environment.

If I am not allowed a reflex save if there is no space to move, then I demand to be able to place my character (with improved evasion) anywhere at the edge of a blast radius when I make my save, since I apparently avoided it.

I see the reflex saving throw as doing whatever you can to protect yourself. Whether that's ducking behind some cover (which the fireball will spread around), covering your face, hiding behind your impenetrable black cape, you do something that saves you from getting completely fried.

Even in the situation described, you'd be able to do *something*.

My uneasiness would be whether to allow Evasion or not. It doesn't have any additional requirements (other than light armor/encumbrance), but I just can't see that as easily.

I see the reflex saving throw as doing whatever you can to protect yourself. Whether that's ducking behind some cover (which the fireball will spread around), covering your face, hiding behind your impenetrable black cape, you do something that saves you from getting completely fried.

Even in the situation described, you'd be able to do *something*.

My uneasiness would be whether to allow Evasion or not. It doesn't have any additional requirements (other than light armor/encumbrance), but I just can't see that as easily.

No matter how you spin it, I personally feel this is still nowhere near as "impossible" as 'Blinding Barrage' or 'Split the Tree' and other such 4E "stunts" allowed at 1st level.

It is one of those issues where realism is superseeded by mechanics. In reality, sure, doing something like that would actually make it harder to dodge and impossible to completely avoid, but in D&D, yes they should get a reflex save (maybe they hid behind a pebble).

It can lead to some interesting things where the rules contradict each other. What happens when you crit (and confirm) against a Rogue with Improved Evasion tha makes their reflex save?