Monk thoughts

It seems like with about every other class getting fancy paths to make their character unique, like bloodlines, etc, monks could have been a lot cooler. I know it's too late because the books are printed and everything, etc, but I just wanted to get this out there. Monks are clearly based on Shaolin kung fu, and as a student of said martial art, I just wanted to put this out there. There are 6 animals in traditional Shaolin, and they all have a different focus for a different martial artist. Once you achieve a certain level of mastery of base Shaolin, you are given an animal form to master. I can expand exactly how any animal is supposed to really work if anyone wants to know. Here they are:

Tiger - External style. Focus on powerful strikes, powerful kicks, raking and tearing the opponent, and in general, overwhelming your enemy. Signature strike is the Tiger's Claw, which is a palm strike followed by raking the fingers downwards (or grabbing at tissue) as the part of the same motion.

Leopard - External style. Like Tiger, but more directed and requires greater flexibility. More focus on kicking and twisting. Signature strike is the Leopard Fist, which is used to jab deep into vital areas to cause internal damage.

Crane - Internal style. Large, deceptive sweeping motions, jumping, lightness. Focus on redirecting opponent's momentum and avoiding attacks. Signature strike is the crane's beak, which is used to focus power from someone not physically strong on a small, key area to cause maximal damage.

Snake - Internal style. Focus on deception and exact strikes. Kicking is minimal, but the torso moves a great deal for exact positioning, requiring great core strength. Great flexibility and coordination required. Signature strike is the snake head strike, which is a quick, hard, finger-jab type strike that aims for pressure points.

Mantis - Internal/external style (uses both, really). Focus is on grabbing, pulling, and tearing. Kicks are low, hard and frequent, timed with strikes, pulls, and other movements. Emphasis is on redirecting and catching opponent strikes, as well as ripping and tearing flesh. Signature strike is the mantis fist, which is a hand position that is optimal for grabbing an incoming punch or kick, or for hard finger strikes on tendons and pressure points.

Dragon - Internal style. Sort of the pinnacle of Shaolin, really. Required exceptional strength, speed, focus, balance, and flexibility. Incorporates aspects of the other animals. Signature strike is the dragon's claw, which is primarily used to grab individual tendons, muscles, or bones and put the opponent completely at your mercy.

Internal and external, by the way, are um... External is focused on the body, power, speed, etc, and internal is more focused on the mind, chi cultivation, stuff like that. Internal styles also use significant physical force, but straight force isn't the focus like an external style.

It seems like letting monks branch out like other classes do (oracle revelations, sorcerer bloodlines, wizard spell schools, cleric deities and domains, etc etc etc) would have been pretty spiffy. You wouldn't need to have your character grow feathers or turn into an elemental or other stuff like I've seen in prestige classes before. The stuff that actual monks do is cool enough. I'd give you a list of some of the crazy stuff that I've seen in person, but I doubt you'd believe me :)

Have you seen these options?

No, but looking over them, I'm not really impressed. You take three specific feats that match some style, and as a result, get a +2 or +4 bonus to something? Woo. Those look like a good start, but I'm a bit underwhelmed.

See, with monks, and those styles I describe or others like them, you could have a monk that doesn't have fighting stats, and is still cool in combat. It would let monks have greatly varying stats and roles. You could have a party full of monks and have each one be drastically different. Pathfinder really shines in the great diversity of characters that can be had in any one class, and I think monks missed out. The real problem with that is that it doesn't even really reflect the real world, or how monastic orders of fighters actually do things.

No, but looking over them, I'm not really impressed. You take three specific feats that match some style, and as a result, get a +2 or +4 bonus to something? Woo. Those look like a good start, but I'm a bit underwhelmed.

See, with monks, and those styles I describe or others like them, you could have a monk that doesn't have fighting stats, and is still cool in combat. It would let monks have greatly varying stats and roles. You could have a party full of monks and have each one be drastically different. Pathfinder really shines in the great diversity of characters that can be had in any one class, and I think monks missed out. The real problem with that is that it doesn't even really reflect the real world, or how monastic orders of fighters actually do things.

Well since it is one of the few open source options out there I thought I would at least suggest it. Might be a nice place to start.

Ya. Thanks for the post.

Does anyone else agree with my main point, namely, that monks should have branching class paths?

anybody?

My bet is that this will be part of the Advanced PG or whatever its being called due out next August.

For the most part, different 'schools' would teach different feats, just like what is detailed in that open-source link, IMHO. You could easily come up with some specific styles that use specific feats.

No, but looking over them, I'm not really impressed. You take three specific feats that match some style, and as a result, get a +2 or +4 bonus to something? Woo. Those look like a good start, but I'm a bit underwhelmed.

See, with monks, and those styles I describe or others like them, you could have a monk that doesn't have fighting stats, and is still cool in combat. It would let monks have greatly varying stats and roles. You could have a party full of monks and have each one be drastically different. Pathfinder really shines in the great diversity of characters that can be had in any one class, and I think monks missed out. The real problem with that is that it doesn't even really reflect the real world, or how monastic orders of fighters actually do things.

In two of my pathfinder games, I have a half orc monk playing. Recently, I ran a one shot at gaming club, and both players were present (the regular game was cancelled due to work schedules, so I was just kicking back at this time)

Grogg Ophelia: Half orc Monk (3). Grey skinned half orc with an elaborate braid and sister of the Immortal lotus School (with the central tennant focused on 'just as the lotus blooms amidst a desert, so too should a master blend beauty, flexibility and resilience') Her attacks are combinations designed to things other than damage (Liberal dosages of trips, stunning fists and dazzling displays) with moves such as 'Unfurling bloom strike', and 'The 99th finger tap'

Obar Akami: half orc monk (3) Green skinned half orc, with samurai styled hair and a curiously amish beard. An apostle of the Determined fist school. (philosophy essentially being strike first and hard. Grant mercy if it brings victory, otherwise destroy utterly lest your enemies return while you sleep.) His attacks are Brutal power attacks utilising fists, elbows head buts and stomps such as 'Unyeilding knuckle punch' and the 'Heel of Giants' technique.

They spent most of the adventure competing for victories, and their antics led to some great gaming that night (including a beautiful scene, a climbing contest where they attempted to use demoralise as they climed parallel to each other up a stone wall)

Batts

I think feats really address this problem. I pulled together every feat from just Wizards stuff and Dragon magazine that seemed related to martial arts into one document, and had something like 50. There were some way better feats in Oriental Adventures and some Dragon articles, though I'm not sure which issues.

I definitely think that having alternate paths of progression would be an interesting option for monks (which are one of my favorite classes to play by the way as I am a martial artist myself). Feats do seem to address this to a certain extent but they don't come close to mirroring the prowess level of particular skills that a monk would have if he focused on a particular style.

For instance, if a human monk reached 6th level they are rather exceptional. The damage they can do with bare hands can punch through wood and weapons and they are rather resilient of mind and body. They, however, have a grand total of 4 feats. Now it is possible to arrange these feats around a general combat concept or ideal in order to reflect the discipline of a given school of martial thought, it simply doesn't seem to cut it when you compare it to a similarly skilled fighter (who can take many more feats and thus progress much further in the fighting style if feats alone are used).

I tend to substitute abilities rather frequently. For instance, one of my players is currently playing a monk in a frozen land. She spent most of her time on the tundra, not near mountains. As a result she learned to lighten her steps, to minimize the effects of deep snow, ice or snow crusts concealing long drops into nowhere. In terms of game mechanics we replaced her slow fall ability with one called light step. It has the same distance as slow fall and progresses similarly, but has a completely different effect. In fact, in that campaign I can't think of a single character that uses every aspect of a normal character class. You could do something similar by using substitution levels or alternate abilities that replace the abilities a standard monk receives as they grow in skill and rise in level. Just a thought.

I agree with the OP that the basis for the Monk styles, should come form the traditional Shaolin kung fu sub types.

My question is not related....

I'm new to Pathfinder RPG and primarily looking at playing a Monk-like character in Pathfinder Online. My question is, what PFRPG fiction would be best for me to get a sense of what PF Monks are?

Bluddwolf, what monks are - or what they are meant to be - is an issue hotly debated on these boards. There are those that hold that monks are special snowflakes that some players just do not know how to play, and those that hold that no, monks are just not functioning as intended without DM fiat and intervention.

Bluddwolf, what monks are - or what they are meant to be - is an issue hotly debated on these boards. There are those that hold that monks are special snowflakes that some players just do not know how to play, and those that hold that no, monks are just not functioning as intended without DM fiat and intervention.

At least there is good honest debate about monks.