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DM Magister Ludi's Legacy of Fire

Game Master Gordon the Whale

In the barren wastes of the Brazen Peaks, secrets await those brave enough to find them.


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Game Master

I'm still here; you can continue talking to each other or Garavel as long or as short as you like.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

Valik is ready. He isn't really interested in sharing his life story with people he hasn't gotten to know yet.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

Well, not to everyone in the bar at least. He will definitely talk on the road.


Garavel begins to gather up his papers. I am going to go purchase supplies for our venture, and pack the baggage. I advise you all follow Dross's example soon and get some rest. We leave at dawn.

He turns to Erilene. Please put a meal and a room for Valik on my account.

His papers neatly arranged in a leather folio, he leaves the Inn.


Game Master

If anyone has any standard equipment they would like to buy in town before they leave, go ahead.
@Travis: I don't see any gear on your sheet other than weapons and armor. I'd recommend at least a tent and bedroll, and a backpack to carry them. Also, you still have too many feats (should be 2).

The next morning dawns clear and a bit chilly. Garavel is waiting outside when you exit the Inn, with his three camels roped together in a line. One bears a well-maintained riding saddle, one saddlebags bulging with gear and supplies, and one a barrel of water. Once the party is assembled, he mounts the lead camel and sets off.

The road, unpaved but smooth with the passage of many caravans over the centuries, winds away from Solku along the edge of the hills. The landscape to your west is rocky and rugged, with thorny scub and cacti, gradually rising up to the formiddable peaks of the distant Barrier Wall. To the east, the hills descend to a wide savannah, still green from the spring rains. In the distance, you see herds of grazing animals. Within a few hours, the air warms dramatically, and those who are not wearing hot weather outfits become uncomfortable. Nou uncomfortable enough for penalties yet, though.)

Garavel leads the way in calm silence.

If anyone wants to talk during the day's trek, go ahead. Otherwise, we'll skip to nightfall.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

As they walk Valik begins telling the story of his journey south. He also talks about the Bladewake and its crew, the captain known as Wyrmeye, the overbearing first mate Ovik. He then describes Riddleport, the great archway with the strange runes, the city and the people in the Varisan port town. (Women with dark hair and dusky skin dressed in scarves and dresses of vibrant color).


Male Human (Kellish) Warrior / 2

Though as sullen looking as he had been the previous day, the lack of alcohol in his system has made the nervous twitch much more pronounced. However, once the group in on the road, and Valik starts his tale, Dullen seems to calm a bit and actually seems to be paying attention to what the Ulfen man had to say. Woulda been nice to see the world like this man has. At least to have gotten out of Katapesh and somewhere cooler. Though he was garbed in clothing appropriate to the hot climate, Dullen was already sweating as he constantly readjusted the wrapped crossbow that was slung across his shoulder


HP:15/15

Dross walks along through the heat near the back of the group, only half listening to Valik and trying to shield his eyes from the suns bright light with one hand while trying to adjust his chain armour into a more comfortable position with the other.


Travis has little to say as he marches through the heat. It is possible to smell the ale he drank the night before in his sweat.


Garavel speaks, but does not turn on his camel to face Valik. The Lady Almah's family, the Roveshki's, originally hail from Varisia. They have been established in Katapesh for several generations, but they do keep some Varisian customs.


Asad is relatively quiet, but listens to the stories as it is something to take his mind off of the otherwise boring journey.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

"Interesting. It is good to see peoples from so close to home. We never saw many Varisians in Stag-stone, but a few passed through now and again. I saw more in Riddleport and Magnimar. By the lady they are a colorful people. They had some sort of language that used color to tell a story. It was pretty interesting. I was only in Riddleport for a few days, and the same for Magnimar. Just long enough to get a basic feel for the place before we sailed on."


That, I believe, is a custom the Roveshki's have not kept. But surely, there is more to your story. It is a long way from Magnimar to Solku, by any route, and I do not think you have been following this family of yours -- A woman named Haleen, was it? -- the entire way. He pauses a moment, then continues. Haleen... Unless I am mistaken, that is a Kelish name, not one from the far north.

Garavel faces forward, saying all of this with the same cold disinterestedness that he has always spoken with. Yet, her remembers the name of a woman you mentioned only once in passing the last evening. You get the feeling that nothing escapes him.


"Ah aren't we all looking for a fine woman though? No offense to your lady Valik, but a man on the road needs something to come home to, no? So Valik, got any jokes from the north, or any more tales to share?"


HP:15/15

"The old whore house usually works for me" Dross says with a short chuckle.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

"Haleen is not a fine woman in the manner you suggest. She is my family in spirit, if not in name. When there was no benefit to herself, she saved my life, so I owe her a blood-debt. I hope to be able to repay her that favor sometime in the future, but it is very difficult to do so if I am not anywhere near her. So I am trying to find her."


I see. You owe a favor, a blood-debt, to someone who, it seems, has willingly travelled to a gnoll-infested town in the wilderness. I say "it seems," because this family-in-spirit did not see fit to reveal her plans to you; you learned of her destination from a drover at the caravansary. I hope your blood-debt does not lead to a conflict with the contract you have signed, or with the laws of this land. At this point, Garavel turns around on his camel to look down at you. His face is as impassive as ever. This "Haleen" seems to be quite a mystery. I don't like mysteries. He turns back to face forward.

Perception DC 15:
As Garavel turns around, the wind blows his keffiyeh, and you see some sort of metal object protruding from the left side of his head.

The sun will set soon. There is a small creek running down from the hills up ahead. We will camp there for the night.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

Perception 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 2 = 22


HP:15/15

"You've traveled far and seen many things Valik. Your goal to find a woman, to save her or pay a debt puzzles me. We are different sorts of men it seems. I've lived here all my life fighting for this house or that merchant and even on occasion a group of gnoll slavers. He shrugs. "and I'll probably die doing the same." he says matter of factly scratching his linen head cover.


Male Human (Kellish) Warrior / 2

Listening to the conversation to take his mind of the expanse of hot plains that is laid out ahead of him Dullen thinks, What a fool this man seems, even with all his great stories. Risking his neck for a woman he can't even keep track of. At least my reason for being here is more concrete. With that, he thinks of what he can do with the coin once it is in his hand. He new a particular vendor in the Night Stalls that would give him a great deal on some product, or even the night with some pleasant company. Who needs blood-oaths and such nonsense when physical comforts can satisfy just as well. With that, Dullen just scowls as the others continue to converse.


Game Master

In a short while, the party reaches the creek that Garavel mentioned, a trickle of warm water winding down from the mountains to the west before it dries up in the savannah. Meager though the flow is, it supports trees along its banks, which provide a welcome change of scene. They also provide firewood, and Garavel directs that fallen branches be gathered up. While the mercenaries are attending to that task, he sets up his tent neatly and efficiently. After a spartan supper of trail rations and tea, Garavel assigns watches for the night, and retires to his tent.

The watches pass without serious incident, although frequent rustling in the brush near the creek keeps the watchman nervously awake. The yelping calls of a pack of jackals near dawn cause the camels to mill about, but apparently the fire, kept burning all night, keeps the animals away from the camp.

The following days follow the pattern of the first; travel through the dry hills in the hot sun during the day, and camping near water sources at night. As you travel north, the hills extend further east, forming the spur of the Barrier Wall known as the Brazen Peaks. The road , though it follows their eastward curve somewhat, winds deeper into the highlands, and at times, the savannah is no longer visible. On the afternoon of the fourth day, as you crest a hill, you see a panorama; northward, the hills briefly give way to a dry valley running east and west, and beyond it, the Brazen Peaks rise. They are rugged, craggy mountains, though not extremely tall, named for the reddish-gold rock they are carved from. To the north-northwest a tall, conical mountain juts above its fellows. It is smooth and regular in shape compared to its neighbors, and it appears to be almost white, though one would not expect snow at this latitude and season.

The road winds back down between the hills, and you lose sight of the mountains. Garavel calls for a rest near a pool of muddy water. Tonight, he does not build a fire. There is no wood in these hills, and the benefit of driving away animals is outweighed by the danger of attracting more intelligent foes. You keep your watches nervously. At sunset you hear the roar of a lion in the distance to the east. As dusk deepens, the eerie cackle of a pack of hyenas drifts through the lonely hills, but they do not approach.

At midnight, Valik is waking Dullen to begin his watch, when the night air carries a blood-curding howl from the northwest. It is quiet, but distinct, echoing through the stony hills as though it comes from a distance of many miles. It carries on for almost a minute before trailing off. After a pause, it is answered by another howl from the northeast, less loud, but seeming to be closer. They do not sound like any animal you have ever heard.

Despite this unpleasant omen, the rest of the night passes uneventfully. You breakfast on trail rations and tepid water. As you are leaving, Garavel says, This is the last day of our journey. We should reach Lady Almah's encampment at the Sultan's Claw before sunset. He hoists himself into the saddle of his camel, but as the beast stands up, two spears fly through the air, piercing his chest. He falls to the ground, bleeding heavily. You glance in the directions from which the spears flew, and see two large humanoid creatures, covered in scraggly fur, with hyena-like heads. They are dressed in mismatched pieces of leather armor, and each is reaching for another spear.

Knowledge (local) DC 10 (can be attempted untrained):
I'm sure you already know what gnolls are, but here goes.

You recognize the newcomers as gnolls. Gnolls are hyena-like humanoids, who usually view other intelligent creatures only as potential food or slaves, and most do not speak any language other than Gnoll, a harsh tongue which incorporates yips, growls, and barks. They have a violent culture in which the most physically powerful rules with absolute power over a tribe; this primitive power structure typically prevents them from forming larger societies. in some areas, such as the city of Katapesh, gnolls exist on the fringes of human society. Gnolls are typically strong and hearty, but are on average less intelligent and personable than humans.

Initiative Rolls:
Enemies: 1d20 ⇒ 7
Valik: 1d20 ⇒ 18
Asad: 1d20 ⇒ 7
Dross: 1d20 ⇒ 14
Dullen: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (12) + 2 = 14
Travis: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (10) + 5 = 15

Rolloff between Asad and Gnolls:
Asad: 1d20 ⇒ 12
Enemies: 1d20 ⇒ 11

Combat order:
Valik
Travis
Dullen
Dross
Asad
Enemies
Camels will act and Garavel will bleed at the end of the round

Battle Map

Battle instructions:
Please put your game mechanics in a spoiler at the beginning of your post. In order to make things easier for me, I'd like to see your current conditions, hp, ac, and saves first, then what actions you plan to take, and the rolls for those actions. For example:

Garavel
dying, prone, unconscious
hp -12
AC 10, touch 5, flat-footed 10 (+5 armor, -5 dex)
Fort +8; Ref -3; Will +2 (conditional bonuses)

attempt to stabilize (DC 22): 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (5) + 3 = 8

After the spoiler, put your in-character description of what you're doing.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

Mechanics:

Valik
Good
hp 12 (1d10+1)
AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +1 shield)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +4

Knowledge (local):1d20 + 6 ⇒ (13) + 6 = 19

5' step: Move to I/13
Move action: Load sling
Attack critter I/23 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (9) + 1 = 10
dmg critter I/23 1d4 + 3 ⇒ (2) + 3 = 5

"Asad, Dross, Travis, get the gnoll on the left! Dullen, with me on the right!"

Valik shouts as he loads his sling and spins it up into a zurrring blur. He shuffles to his left, partially to get a better angle on the monster, and also to get closer to Garavel to render aid. As the gnoll moves out from behind the rock once more, a hideous grin on his face, Valik releases the bullet at the mongrel humanoid. The weight misses, ricocheting off the large rock the gnoll had been hiding behind with a sharp CRACK, and flipping off into the distance.


Spoiler:
Travis
Good
AC 18, touch 11, flat footed 16
Fort 3 Ref 2 Will 0

Draw Greatsword, advance on Gnoll on the left, attack:

1d20 + 4 ⇒ (1) + 4 = 5 damage 2d6 + 2 ⇒ (3, 1) + 2 = 6

Travis advances wielding his greatsword against the gnoll on the left.

Oops I think I missed.


"Ho ho ho, he just joins and is already barking out orders! Still I have no qualms about which gnoll will feel my blade! Bad Doggy!"

Spoiler:

Asad
Good
Hp 18
AC 16, touch 10, flat footed 16
Fort 4 Ref 0 Will -1

Asad will wait for the gnolls to act, then draw his nodachi, and charge the Gnoll on the left if possible.

Rolls:

Attack: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (6) + 7 = 13
Damage: 1d10 + 3 ⇒ (5) + 3 = 8
-2 AC for one round if Asad is able to charge.


Game Master

Travis:
The rock and bush are in the way of you doing a charge this round. Your speed in chainmail is 20 ft., but the gnoll is 30 ft away, so you can't make it all the way to him with just a move action. You can move up to him (A8, B8, or C8) as a full-round action, or you could move 20 ft (E8 or E9) and ready an action to attack if he comes in range; or something else. Up to you.


Travis moves to E9, ready to strike if the gnoll closes.


Male Human (Kellish) Warrior / 2

Spoiler:

hp 10
AC 6, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 dex)
Fort +3; Ref +2; Will +1

Ranged attack on gnoll that Valik is attacking.

Attack:1d20 + 4 ⇒ (15) + 4 = 19
Damage:1d8 ⇒ 8
Know. Local:1d20 + 5 ⇒ (10) + 5 = 15

Cursing as he sees Garavel take two spears, Dullen looks o his right before shouting, "Gnolls!" Leveling his crossbow and firing a bolt at one of the gnolls, the sullen mercenary suddenly shows why he had been successful so far as a mercenary.


HP:15/15

Mechanics:
HP: 15, AC: 17
Fort: +5
Ref: +1
Will:+0

Move: to c9 I believe that's 20ft?
Standard: Trip Attempt on enemy 1d20 + 4 + 1 + 2 ⇒ (12) + 4 + 1 + 2 = 19 (+1 weapon focus, +2 trait) (reach,trip weapon)

 

So used to taking orders from strangers in the flow of combat, Dross doesn't stop to question as Valik begins giving them out. He rushes the enemy to the left of the road and attempts to hook one of its legs with his Guisarme to trip it over.


Game Master

Dross:
c9 is 25 ft: 1 diagonal is 5 ft, 2 diagonals is 15 ft. However, you can make it to d9 and do the trip just fine.

Dullen's crossbow bolt hits the right gnoll in the shoulder. It yelps in pain, then draws another spear as it charges at him in retaliation, howling and thrusting the spear viciously. The spear bites through a chink in Dullen's armored coat, wounding him.

Gnoll's Attack:
Attack (charge, power attack): 1d20 + 3 + 2 - 1 ⇒ (19) + 3 + 2 - 1 = 23
Damage: 1d8 + 3 + 2 ⇒ (3) + 3 + 2 = 8

Dullen:
I think you forgot to add hp for second level; your max should be 16, not 10. That puts you at 8 now.

Meanwhile, Dross steps closer to the left gnoll and sweeps its legs out from under it with a deft swing of his guisarme. The gnoll crashes to the ground. It snarls its rage, and scrabbles back to its feet, providing Dross an opening for another attack.

Dross's rolls:
Dross attack of opportunity, +4 to hit prone opponent. Hope you don't mind me rolling it.
Attack: 1d20 + 4 + 4 ⇒ (11) + 4 + 4 = 19
Damage: 2d4 + 3 ⇒ (2, 3) + 3 = 8

The guisarme bites through the gnoll's leather armor, leaving a bloody gash on its leg. It draws another spear and closes in on Dross, cursing in its own, bestial language.
Gnoll (language):
Now die, smooth-skin!

The camels, frightened by the appearance of the gnolls and the clamor of combat, rear up and attempt to run off. The fact that they are tied together hampers them somewhat, so they don't get too far.

Garavel lies still on the ground, blood soaking into the dry dust of the road. You can't tell whether he is still breathing without looking closer.

Asad:
You don't have an opportunity to charge; it's still too far away, plus it is now blocked by the camels. You can declare another action, or continue to hold.

Round 2
Asad
Valik
Travis
Dullen
Dross
Gnolls
Garavel & Camels

Battle Map


Asad will move to m12 and attack that gnoll then.

Rolls:

Attack 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (14) + 5 = 19
Damage 1d10 + 3 ⇒ (8) + 3 = 11


Game Master

Asad rushes to Dullen's aid and cuts down the gnoll that was threatening him.

Updated Map


HP:15/15

Magister Ludi:
Dross has combat reflexes. I believe he gets another AoO on the gnoll as it steps towards him (it wouldn't be allowed a 5ft step as it had already moved this round standing up.)

If you allow it. AoO: 1d20 + 4 + 1 ⇒ (11) + 4 + 1 = 16 (+1 Weapon focus)
Dmg: 2d4 + 3 ⇒ (4, 1) + 3 = 8


Game Master

Dross:
I know this is an issue where not all GMs agree, I have always considered standing up, although it is a move action, to not constitute "movement" for the purposes of whether a 5-foot step can be taken. The same is true of drawing a weapon, readying a shield, getting an item from a backpack, picking something up off the ground, opening a door, etc. As long as you stay in the same square, you haven't "moved." The Pathfinder rules are vague enough to go either way, but the 3.5 PHB is explicit:

"If you move no distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions, such as standing up), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action. For example, if Tordek is on the ground, he can stand up (a move action), move 5 feet (a 5-foot step), and then attack."

I'll let you use that roll on your next turn though. If Travis hasn't killed him already, that will do it.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

Mechanics:

Valik
Good
hp 12 (1d10+1)
AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +1 shield)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +4

Heal Garavel to stabilize, unless he is obviously dead 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (3) + 5 = 8

Valik watches the first gnoll drop, then he turns to inspect Garavel where he lies sprawled in the dirt, hoping to save his life if he is able.


Travis closes and strikes at the gnoll threatening Dross.

Spoiler:
1d20 + 4 ⇒ (16) + 4 = 20
if hit 2d6 + 2 ⇒ (6, 5) + 2 = 13


Game Master

Travis's blow tears through the gnoll's defenses, and it collapses to the rocky ground. It feebly claws at the air for a few seconds before lying still.

Valik kneels beside Garavel. The man is breathing, but just barely, and is bleeding heavily. Valik attempts to stop the bleeding and save the dying man, but he is not able to do so. Garavel's eyelids flutter, and he makes an effort to speak, but no sound comes out; his lung appears to be punctured by one of the spears.

DM only:
1d20 + 3 ⇒ (16) + 3 = 19


HP:15/15

" Thanks " Dross nods to Travis. He moves over to try and settle the camels and see if theres anything in the baggage that could help Garavel. " Shh, Shhh, now " he says quietly trying to grab the lead.

Handle Animal:
1d20 - 1 ⇒ (19) - 1 = 18


Game Master

Dross successfully calms the camels, though they remain a little skittish. As he looks through the baggage, his eyes immediately fall on a healing kit.

We're out of combat, so I'm not going to worry too much about initiative order. We'll keep it round-by-round until Garavel is either stable or dead, though.


HP:15/15

Grabbing it he hurrys to Valik side "Will these help?" he asks passing Valik some bandages and salves.

assist roll:
assist heal 1d20 ⇒ 2


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

"Thank you," Valik says as he takes the kit and opens it. He paws throught the contents quickly, his hands covered with blood, and leaving red fingerprints on some of the small boxes and bags. Finding an astringent poultice and a dressing he resumes his attempts to staunch the flow.

Heal w/kit: first aid 1d20 + 5 + 2 ⇒ (13) + 5 + 2 = 20


Game Master

Probing around Garavel's chest, trying to remove the spears and stop the bleeding, Valik find, to his surprise, that Garavel is wearing a chain shirt of exceedingly fine quality beneath his loose desert robes. For two spears thrown from such a distance to pierce his armor so effectively is remarkably bad luck.

Fortunately, Valik's luck is better, and with the aid of the supplies in the healer's kit, he is able to remove the spears, staunch the flow of blood, and bandage the wounds. Garavel remains unconscious, his breathing shallow and labored. He may be out of immediate danger, but it will be many days before he is fully recovered.

Well done, he was 2 hp away from dead. Round-by-round is over.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

Valik stands up from his crouch and looks about.

Survival, direction of travel [dice]1d20+6/dice]

"Well, he will make it. But I am not certian that we should stay here. Garavel said that we were within a day's journey, and I think that we were travelling in that direction", Valik says, pointing toward the horizon. "We have two choices, we can attempt to find a defensible position and wait until Garavel wakes, in which case we remain in gnoll territory without the protection of a caravan and I think that we will be easy targets sitting in one place, or we can take a chance, and press on in the direction that we were travelling. A caravan on the move raises a lot of dust, so we should be able to see them. If we don't find them before sunset, if we wait until dark, we may be able to see their cookfires if we get close."

Valik turns to the swordsmen, "What do you think?"


Game Master

Following the road you have been on should be easy enough. Garavel didn't specify whether the main group would be on the road or not. All he said was "at the Sultan's Claw." None of you have ever heard of a place by that name before.


Game Master

DM only:
Gnoll 1 rolls to stabilize:
-3 hp (DC 13) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (6) + 1 = 7
-4 hp (DC 14) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (16) + 1 = 17 => stable at -4 hp.

1 hour: -4 hp (DC 14) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (5) + 1 = 6
2 hours: -5 hp (DC 15) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (12) + 1 = 13
3 hours: -6 hp (DC 16) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (16) + 1 = 17 => conscious at -6 hp
-8 hp (DC 18) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (14) + 1 = 15
-9 hp (DC 19) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (8) + 1 = 9
-10 hp (DC 20) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (18) + 1 = 19
-11 hp (DC 21) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (16) + 1 = 17

Gnoll 2 rolls to stabilize:
-10 hp (DC 20) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (13) + 1 = 14
-11 hp (DC 21) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (17) + 1 = 18
-12 hp (DC 21) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (16) + 1 = 17 => dead

Garavel rolls to regain consciousness:
(requires natural 20)
1d20 ⇒ 61d20 ⇒ 151d20 ⇒ 21d20 ⇒ 11d20 ⇒ 141d20 ⇒ 31d20 ⇒ 171d20 ⇒ 5
Does not regain consciousness before reaching camp if party travels.


Travis spits, then begins to clean his sword.

I say we keep moving. Sitting around is just too damn dull.


"Well we need to get somewhere. I am confident we will be fine, but Garavel needs to rest somewhere. I say we press on."


HP:15/15

"These supplies won't last forever, we should probably keep moving. Is there something in here we could use to make a stretcher or something?"


Game Master

You could improvise a stretcher using the poles and canvas from one of your tents.


Hp: 15/21; AC:15/10/15; Perc +7; Init +0

"We could probably put together a drag stretcher. But our travel speed isn't going to be that great across this rocky ground. Of course, we are walking, so it wasn't that great to begin with. Good idea Dross, lets put a stretcher together."

Valik demonstrates some of the knot-tying skills that he learned aboard ship as he lashes poles and blankets together, attaches it to the saddle of one of the camels, and straps Garavel to the stretcher. The camel is not pleased with this and spits at Valik every so often.

"I am not very good with animals...at all. Could one of you take care of the camels, I will do my best to find the path."


HP:15/15

" Hahaha. No one is good with camels my friend. " Dross laughs as he takes the lead again spitting back at the camel as it spits at him. Dross starts heading down the road again but then stops after a couple of steps. " Just a thought. Should we check these Gnolls over for any identifying marks. Maybe they are part of a larger force? "

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