DM Flykiller's Council of Thieves

Game Master flykiller


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male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

Tactically speaking, you're giving up flexibility (spellcasting, spell completion & spell trigger items) for the ability to convert uses of lay on hands to something loosely resembling bardic performance abilities.

Some of the effects late (e.g. the fortification-like effect at 16th level) are kind of cool, but the main reason to swap would be flavour, because I am struggling to see how a warrior of the holy light would be anywhere near as effective as a vanilla paladin--you're not only giving up spellcasting, you're splitting the use of lay on hands between self-healing (one of the paladin's best features as far as effectiveness goes) and maintaining the magical nimbus--for a minute at a time.

Now that tactical bit is out of the way, if you like it because of flavour, go for it! Flavour always trumps effectiveness.

My personal favourite of the paladin archetypes is the hospitaler. I have always envisaged the act of channelling energy as being accompanied by visual and perhaps auditory phenomena.


HP 18/18 (AC18/To11/FF17) Female Half-Elf Paladin of Shelyn 1.50AD

One of the reasons I want to go with the Warrior of Holy Light is, while it might be considered "sub-optimal", I was thinking of taking a level of bard for the performance bonuses, since music is so central to Illithia's character. Instead of doing complicated multiclassing I could instead get it from a paladin archetype.

Also, the thing about splitting Lay on Hands uses is a concern, but there are feats for that.

Also, Flykiller, how receptive would you be to Illithia taking feats from the 3.5 splash book The Book of Exalted Deeds? (specifically, the feats I'm looking at are the Non-violence/peace feats).


I like the idea of multi-classing bard better than the archetype if you're looking for support options. Mainly because I actually like inspire courage. Being sub-optimal for flavor is totally good, I mean I'm going martial artist and I'm only ever going to wield one gun.. Ultimately do what makes sense to you.

P.S. As a player who has used the Book of Exalted Deeds, ironically no good can come from it. :)


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

If I may make a suggestion, to gain the same basic effect you could also look into the hospitaler archetype and take variant channelling:

Ultimate Magic, p. 28 wrote:
A variant channeling either modifies positive channeled energy when used to heal or modifies negative energy when used to harm. When using positive energy to heal, affected creatures gain only half the normal amount of healing but also receive a specific beneficial effect.

There are two potential variants that make sense for Shelyn worshippers:

Ultimate Magic, p. 28 wrote:
Art/Music: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on Perform checks and on saving throws against illusions, sonic effects, and language-dependent effects for 1 minute.
Ultimate Magic, p. 29 wrote:
Beauty/Love/Lust: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on saving throws against charm effects and abilities based on fascination or physical attractiveness (such as a nymph’s blinding beauty and stunning glance abilities) for 1 minute.

Not in any way suggesting this is 'better', just thought you might be interested in another option. : )


Male Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 3 / Ranger 1 [28/28hp | AC: 18/13/15 | F+4 R+8 W+4 (+2 vs enchant) | Init +3 | low-light vision; Per +10, SM +5] [Luck: 8/9]

I can't argue with Warrior of Holy Light or a level in Bard seeing as I gave up Bardic Performance. I'm considering a level or two in Urban Ranger, myself, depending on how the adventure goes. I would get to keep my skill points up while expanding my fighting abilities. I do give up spellcasting progression, so we need Ferrucio to stay the course!


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD
Bishop Jerro wrote:
I'm going martial artist and I'm only ever going to wield one gun.

Speaking of guns, when the opportunity arises, Ferrucio will want to have a look at Bishop's gun, to see if he can understand how it works. Then I could sensibly pick up fabricate bullets. I figure it would be good as a utility spell to have on hand when we might be under time pressure. Waving a hand over a 2gp piece of lead to create 30 bullets in a single action sounds like an efficient use of time to me. : )


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD
Dario Westone wrote:
I can't argue with Warrior of Holy Light or a level in Bard seeing as I gave up Bardic Performance. I'm considering a level or two in Urban Ranger, myself, depending on how the adventure goes. I would get to keep my skill points up while expanding my fighting abilities. I do give up spellcasting progression, so we need Ferrucio to stay the course!

Heh! Don't worry, after this one level of the spy archetype, I will be heading straight down the wizard table. ; )


Ferrucio de Angelis wrote:
Bishop Jerro wrote:
I'm going martial artist and I'm only ever going to wield one gun.
Speaking of guns, when the opportunity arises, Ferrucio will want to have a look at Bishop's gun, to see if he can understand how it works. Then I could sensibly pick up fabricate bullets. I figure it would be good as a utility spell to have on hand when we might be under time pressure. Waving a hand over a 2gp piece of lead to create 30 bullets in a single action sounds like an efficient use of time to me. : )

Well Bishop would prefer to make his own ammo if possible, not that he doesnt appreciate the gesture. And honestly if he runs out of bullets, he'll just bust some heads the old fashioned way. So don't worry about it. That said, he is willing to make you your own gun if you wish to learn. Same goes for anyone else who wants one, provided you can afford it.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD
Bishop Jerro wrote:
Ferrucio de Angelis wrote:
Bishop Jerro wrote:
I'm going martial artist and I'm only ever going to wield one gun.
Speaking of guns, when the opportunity arises, Ferrucio will want to have a look at Bishop's gun, to see if he can understand how it works. Then I could sensibly pick up fabricate bullets. I figure it would be good as a utility spell to have on hand when we might be under time pressure. Waving a hand over a 2gp piece of lead to create 30 bullets in a single action sounds like an efficient use of time to me. : )
Well Bishop would prefer to make his own ammo if possible, not that he doesnt appreciate the gesture. And honestly if he runs out of bullets, he'll just bust some heads the old fashioned way. So don't worry about it. That said, he is willing to make you your own gun if you wish to learn. Same goes for anyone else who wants one, provided you can afford it.

Heh, that's one of the nifty things about being a wizard (as opposed to a sorcerer or some other spontaneous caster): I can afford to have spells in my spellbook I just plain never use. : D


Fair enough, but you would have to spend money on learning the spell. Or use one of your free level-up spells.


Hey, I didn't even know about the survival check, thanks for mentioning it. Bishop, you can take 10.
1d100 ⇒ 78
You notice the morning is colder than usual, with northwestern wind blowing harshly. Clouds are gathering on the west horizon, but they probably won't brew into rain until night. This looks favorable to you as it will muddy up any tracks you might leave.

Illithia - sorry, I'm not going to allow 3.5 or 3rd party material. As for other options, both Bishop and Ferrucio make good points.

Going paladin/bard makes perfectly good sense for your character and for the party.

If you want to stay pure peaceful paladin, I'd look at the options which reduce or replace your offensive powers (namely, Smite Evil).
Sacred Servant is nice, but I feel it would create a slight overlap with Dracius. I won't object to that, I'm just pointing that out for consideration.

Hospitaler and Variant Channel work well together, and you can even combine Hospitaler and Warrior of Holy light to gain extra lay of hands uses and not have to spend them on channel energy.

And another option is going Sacred Shield, giving up smite and channel for pure defense. This will ensure you're helping the party just by staying alive, and it can be combined with the Warrior of Holy Light.

You might also take a look at Divine Defender, but I feel that keeping Mercy is important for your character.

In the end, it's your character, and I'm interested to see where you take her :)


Male Half-Orc Cleric of Shelyn 1.75[ABD] (hp 16/16; AC 17/10/17; F: +6; R: +2, W; +8)

I'm not too worried about being overlapped, to be honest. Go with what makes sense for her.


Male Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 3 / Ranger 1 [28/28hp | AC: 18/13/15 | F+4 R+8 W+4 (+2 vs enchant) | Init +3 | low-light vision; Per +10, SM +5] [Luck: 8/9]

It is kind of fun when most of the party is multiclassed to cover multiple areas.

Ferrucio, are you going to try to find a Sleep scroll to learn?


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD
Dario Westone wrote:

It is kind of fun when most of the party is multiclassed to cover multiple areas.

Ferrucio, are you going to try to find a Sleep scroll to learn?

I'd like to--but I thought Flykiller said we weren't going to be able to shop:

DM Flykiller wrote:
You essentially have all day before the ambush. If we were to track time, it's roughly 9am now and you have to set off around 4-5pm. For simplicity's sake, you are allowed any preparation that takes 8 hours or 'a day' (as opposed to 24 hours). So casters can change their prepared spells, but cannot e.g. go shopping or investigating during that time (not that it is necessary).

While we're on the topic of magic--Flykiller, how do you intend to run magic items/scroll availability? Are we going with the baseline Golarion assumption of a 'magic item shop' of some description, or are you handling things differently? If scrolls are not readily available I will have to think far more carefully about my spell selection.

###

From the spells already in my spellbook, I have a few ways of contributing:

1) Battlefield control: cast grease on enemy weapons--at a Reflex DC of 16 thanks to Spell Focus, it might prove hard for the beefy guys to handle. Summon poison frogs or vipers (which stick around for two rounds) to bite and poison the armigers (1d2 Con damage per failed save). Neither the vipers nor the frogs will do enough damage to seriously compromise our attempt to not kill anyone.

2) Direct assault: use summoned eagles to attack our enemies, hoping that in the two rounds each of them is present, they don't do enough damage to kill anyone. (I can't communicate with them directly so they will just act on instinct.) Although Dracius could possibly take stabilize as an orison as an insurance policy...?

3) Social: I could use disguise self and take 20 on a disguise check to make myself look like an officer of the Hellknights of the Order of the Scourge (who the Order of the Rack often come into conflict with). Then after we have beaten the stuffing out of some of the armigers, I could cast chastise, ride up on a horse, and use Intimidate or Bluff to convince Shanwen he has no idea what's going on...and that the Order of the Scourge will not tolerate the Order of the Rack's nonsense any longer. In fact, I hired these ruffians for a pittance, and they have bested you. That would throw suspicion off the Children and promote internecine feuding between the Hellknight orders.

4) Support: I can cast mage armor on those of you heading in to the battle. It would only give most of you a +1 bump to AC, though, and would be useless for Illithia (and possibly Dracius...can't remember what Dracius is wearing).

Let me know what you think--I am assuming we all discuss this in-character, it's just difficult to write without getting boring!


I meant, either change spells or go shopping - no time to do both. But in case of scrolls, I suppose you could send someone else to buy the scroll for you - someone with arcane casting capability or Spellcraft skill should be able to explain what's needed and check that the scroll he received is indeed the right one.
Magic items are available in Westcrown - it's a metropolis, after all, and magic is not prohibited per se. There may be some strings attached depending on who you approach and what you ask for, especially later in the campaign, but the 1st level spells are readily available.


I personally like the avian assault idea.


Male Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 3 / Ranger 1 [28/28hp | AC: 18/13/15 | F+4 R+8 W+4 (+2 vs enchant) | Init +3 | low-light vision; Per +10, SM +5] [Luck: 8/9]

The Professor can go out to look for a scroll if you would like. He's got no other preparations he needs to do.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD
Dario Westone wrote:
The Professor can go out to look for a scroll if you would like. He's got no other preparations he needs to do.

That sounds like a great solution. Thanks. I will write something in the gameplay thread to reflect it.

Then you can add:

1a) Battlefield Control: cast sleep as a backup to the initial sleep spell, then use grease to (hopefully) force Shanwen to drop his weapon, then summon an eagle to harry whoever is left awake.

###

On the topic of selling items, let's do the following:

  • 10 × potions of cure light wounds <-2 Illithia, 2 Dracius, 2 Bishop, 2 Dario, 2 Ferrucio DONE
  • 1 × masterwork dagger <- SOLD
  • 3 × daggers <- SOLD
  • 2 × hand crossbows <- SOLD
  • 1 × light crossbow <- SOLD
  • 10 × crossbow bolts <- 10 Ferrucio DONE
  • 1 × longsword <- SOLD

That nets us a total of 279 gp. 20 of that should go to Bishop to replenish his store of black powder, leaving us with 259--or pretty much 52 each. I'll take the smaller share of 51.

  • Bishop: +72 gp
  • Dario: +52 gp
  • Dracius: +52 gp
  • Illithia: +52 gp
  • Ferrucio: +51 gp
  • TOTAL: 279 gp

Everyone happy?

Flykiller, let us know when we can sell these items.


Male Half-Orc Cleric of Shelyn 1.75[ABD] (hp 16/16; AC 17/10/17; F: +6; R: +2, W; +8)

Works for me. Updating sheet now with those changes.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

It might be worth adding that it's 6am on Good Friday here and I'm unlikely to post frequently over the Easter weekend. I apologise in advance if I hold things up for a few days.

Hope everyone enjoys whatever celebrations they have planned. : )


You guys are lucky, I'm working both Friday and Monday, and not even getting paid for overtime. Being a 'nearshore' branch sucks in this sense.
Ideally, I'd try to time the game so that we can start the combat proper on Tuesday. But RL comes first, of course.
Happy Easter!


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

Ouch. That's unpleasant.

I should still be able to post periodically, so if combat does get started before Tuesday we won't be stalled completely (at least not on my account), but yeah, it will be nice to spend a few days with the family. : )


HP 18/18 (AC18/To11/FF17) Female Half-Elf Paladin of Shelyn 1.50AD

Given the recent muddleness of the battle (larger battles on PBP tend to be this way because baddies are all controlled by 1 person), can I suggest a slightly alternative way of doing initiative? Same basic principle, except you group like-initiatives together. So instead of this:

Ferrucio
Dario -3HP acted
Illithia -1HP acted
A1 -6HP prone
Dracius -3HP <---
A2 -3HP running away
A3 -3HP awakened
A5 -6HP awakened
A4 -6HP awakened
Bishop -3HP
Shanwen
A6 -3HP up

You have this:

Ferrucio, Dario, Illithia, Dracius
A1-5
Bishop
Shanwen, A6

and whomsoever posts first in these groups is considered to have gone first. This removes any need for retconning. I think it works better for a PBP environment, but I want to know what the rest of the folks think.


Well honestly I think it's probably not so much the init system as my desire to keep things moving during the short while we are all able to post together :) If everyone likes 'us vs them' system better, I will try to use it. It is simpler, but then it kinda kills the point of Improved Initiative and some class features which boost init.


Male Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 3 / Ranger 1 [28/28hp | AC: 18/13/15 | F+4 R+8 W+4 (+2 vs enchant) | Init +3 | low-light vision; Per +10, SM +5] [Luck: 8/9]

Not entirely. Improved Initiative is still useful to get you ahead of the baddies, which I think is most of the point. You are correct that it would reduce the usefulness of allowing you to go before other PCs. But that's something I could live with if it makes it simpler for you and everyone.

I play in a PBP off the Paizo boards and our GM does it that way. It seems to make his life easier and gives some flexibility to when people can post.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

The way I handle it in PbP is to have Team PC and Team Bad Guy; I take the average of everyone's initiative on each side. One side has a turn, then the other, and it doesn't matter what order folks go in in terms of their posts.

Also, I don't know about how you folks roll initiative when you're in a tabletop/face-to-face situation, but the gaming groups I've played with never roll initiative for every mook individually. In this case, my groups would have given Shanwen a roll on his own, and then rolled a single d20 for the armigers' initiative and they would have all gone as a single group.

When I'm running a PbP and doing average initiative by side, I change that around so every single combatant rolls, because otherwise you're right, it does reduce the value of feats and features that improve initiative rolls.

If you're looking for a vote, mine would be for whatever gives us the greatest clarity. Flykiller, if you're unwilling to use a team-type or grouped initiative system, then I would be perfectly happy for us to wait until the appropriate character has acted in the right initiative order. It's much more work for you that way though, as you'll need to keep coming back to adjudicate armigers' actions in between our own.

I don't know about the other players, but I've found the posts of the last hour and a bit rather confusing, primarily because when I was composing a post, 2-3 other people were composing posts at the same time that I had to take into account--and Dracius, for instance, had to delete his entire round of actions and start over.

So whatever makes things simple to follow would be my vote--if that means combat takes longer then I'm okay with that.

Probably my biggest piece of advice, though, would be to take a firm hand on declaring what is happening--give us a clear, unambiguous description of what's happening each turn, where everyone is, who's threatened by whom and so on. And only allow us to start posting our actions for a new round when you are ready for them.


HP 18/18 (AC18/To11/FF17) Female Half-Elf Paladin of Shelyn 1.50AD
Ferrucio de Angelis wrote:
Also, I don't know about how you folks roll initiative when you're in a tabletop/face-to-face situation, but the gaming groups I've played with never roll initiative for every mook individually. In this case, my groups would have given Shanwen a roll on his own, and then rolled a single d20 for the armigers' initiative and they would have all gone as a single group.

Just a quick comment on this specific portion of your post Ferrucio. The rest seems reasonable to me.

During a table-top situation in which I am DM, I have a program that keeps track of these things for me. It's called DM's Familiar. The program was originally designed for 3.5, but it's easy to adapt it to PF. It is especially useful for combats in the order of 6-10 baddies (any more and it's too cumbersome to use much). It keeps track of initiative, hit point totals, and can even make group saves and skill checks with a single click (useful for AOE or stealth/perception situations, respectively). Very easy to simply cycle through the baddies and keep things moving. It even allows me to roll HP for each monster individually, which allows for some variation among individuals.

Before I had use of this program, I would do it similar to you (any baddies that were the same template would have one initiative for all of them).

With all that being said, Flykiller, as previously mentioned, this is your game. We're simply trying to help you, as the challenges of DMing a PBP are different than a tabletop game.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD
Illithia Daramui wrote:
Ferrucio de Angelis wrote:
Also, I don't know about how you folks roll initiative when you're in a tabletop/face-to-face situation, but the gaming groups I've played with never roll initiative for every mook individually.
During a table-top situation in which I am DM, I have a program that keeps track of these things for me. It's called DM's Familiar.

Haven't seen that one, but I have made use of the Tactical Console in Hero Lab from time to time. My current gaming group has a ban on laptops and phones at the table, though--they distract some of our members a little too easily...


Whenever I DM or my friends do, we usually lump the bad guys into groups, like Ferrucio mentioned. It seems to work well.


Male Half-Orc Cleric of Shelyn 1.75[ABD] (hp 16/16; AC 17/10/17; F: +6; R: +2, W; +8)

In RL, I also tend to do the group the similar creatures -- for instance, in last night's tabletop, the "grunt" warrior 1 orcs all shared an init, while the Inquisitor of Gorum, Orc Barbarian and Warrior 3 each got their own rolls.

Having said that, in PBP, I'm generally used to players actions happening in the order they're posted, whether it's a single average so that it's Team Player and then Team Baddie, like Ferrucio, or simply using enemy initiatives as the "breaks" as per Illithia's suggestion -- each of those can work once people get used to them -- though it does sometimes require people to post conditional actions (eg - if x, then y, if not x, then z) sort of things. But then, all of my PbP experience has been as a player.


Thanks for the feedback. I'll switch to the team init staring from the next combat. For this combat I'll keep the individual init, to avoid breaking continuity.
I'm afraid I will have a break in posting during the weekend. I'll try to sneak in a post later tonight, but after that can't promise much until Sunday night.


Regarding the advancement - I am tying it to rest; e.g. you choose what to advance and it happens overnight.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

Nifty. : )


I used Illithia's Diplomacy check as one more aid another for Ferrucio. That makes a total of 27 and you managed to make Thesing friendly :)
For this eventful day, you get another 600xp each, and are one step closer to level 2.


Male Half-Orc Cleric of Shelyn 1.75[ABD] (hp 16/16; AC 17/10/17; F: +6; R: +2, W; +8)

Snazzy. I'll take the spells/powers of D, then.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

Skills/option C for me. : )


Guess I'll take some of option C as well.


Male Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 3 / Ranger 1 [28/28hp | AC: 18/13/15 | F+4 R+8 W+4 (+2 vs enchant) | Init +3 | low-light vision; Per +10, SM +5] [Luck: 8/9]

Seeing as Dario's battle training was just tested, he'll take option A.


HP 18/18 (AC18/To11/FF17) Female Half-Elf Paladin of Shelyn 1.50AD

Illithia will also take option A. Should help with the whole taking hits thing. And hitting.

HP gained: 7
BAB now +2.


Is everyone fine with planting the Shadowstone and attempting to track down Bluehood? I haven't heard from Illithia for a while; I hope she is still with us.


Yep


Male Half-Orc Cleric of Shelyn 1.75[ABD] (hp 16/16; AC 17/10/17; F: +6; R: +2, W; +8)

Works for me -- though I hope we haven't lost Illithia.


Male Half-Elf Archaeologist Bard 3 / Ranger 1 [28/28hp | AC: 18/13/15 | F+4 R+8 W+4 (+2 vs enchant) | Init +3 | low-light vision; Per +10, SM +5] [Luck: 8/9]

I'm in, and I'll offer up the Professor as the one to do it. He's probably got the highest stealth skill, though his disguise is low.

Edit: I stand corrected. Ferrucio is right up there with me and he's got the disguise skill to match. He could earn his 'spy' stripes here.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

Yep, happy with the plan. Also happy to be the one executing it. We could do it tonight; Ferrucio still has summon monster and grease prepared.

###

I am unlikely to post much today--it's a public holiday but I have work to do that needs to be completed before 8am. So you probably won't hear from me until tomorrow morning. I will head over to the gameplay thread and make a Knowledge check or two though.


male human conjurer 1/spy 0ACD

Apologies for the continued posting delays. Work is 18-hour days at the moment. Hopefully it will sort itself out within a few days. Be back soon, I hope!


That is OK as I'm also experiencing higher load, plus we're still uncertain about Illithia. Hopefully this hiatus will be over soon.


HP 18/18 (AC18/To11/FF17) Female Half-Elf Paladin of Shelyn 1.50AD

I'm here, sorry for the unexpected hiatus. I should be back for good now.



An awesome Dwarf/Elf rivalry game I'm playing in is looking for one dwarf (or gnome) and two or three elves (or halflings). The respective recruitment threads are here and here.
I'm playing for the dwarf team and it's very enjoyable so far. Dwarves have six level 3 players at the moment, elves are still level 2 and only 4 players, so they are in need of some serious help to even stand a slightest chance :)


Male Half-Orc Cleric of Shelyn 1.75[ABD] (hp 16/16; AC 17/10/17; F: +6; R: +2, W; +8)

Sorry for the delay, it's been a crazy week (medical appointments, work weirdness and people digging up my yard).

Anyhow, I was thinking that Dracius' background of growing up in the worst parts of town, mixed with the stories of the beast attacks being in those dark, miserable places -- well, it seems these things mesh very well.

As such, I thought he could probably talk to his "foster parents" and "siblings" to get an idea where beasts have attacked, and then lead the group through the dark alleys and tunnels in those areas (since he grew up there, I assume he'd be familiar with them) -- the misery and poverty he grew up in would likely be a prime food for the beasts (and also explain why there have been so few reports, considering noone misses people down there) -- and so by looking for them in the day, but in the dark, he figures there's a decent chance of coming upon one of the monsters. To help with the search, he'd probably push some coins and food around to help get the locals who are living in those tunnels to help look for signs of the beasts.

He'd first want to go back to the sewer, though, to get a look at what the beast's lair looked like (who knows, maybe there's a new one there already?), to get an idea of what he's looking for.


Welcome back :)
Please roll a gather information check in your next IC post, then. If you want to spend some money, specify how much. Did you intend to go alone, or take the party with you?
I can spare you a trip to the sewer - there wasn't anything which resembled a lair there. It must have gotten in from a nearby grate.

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