DM EngineHouse - Smoke and Shadow (Inactive)

Game Master EngineHouse

No problems Mr Enginehouse - now that the gauntlet has been thrown, Vhailor has to take up the challenge of confusing the frak out of these guys :)

I'll be out of town most of Saturday and Sunday working for my fiance on a paleontological dig, will post as I can.

Back again guys, sorry for the delay.

It must be starting to look like I've made it my mission to make Gregory do something foolhardy. I assure you it's a coincidence.

I have been thinking for a while now that my character is a poor fit for this game. I did not like my last in character post at all, but felt a bit trapped because I would be stomping on the other character's actions if I objected. That is something I promised I would not do in my application since I know paladin's can cause trouble in a game.

From the ooc comments, it seems everyone else is having fun and I don't want to mess that up for the other players. But I don't see how the paladin can continue on much longer with the party. His main role so far has been diplomat between party members to such a point that I wouldn't be surprised if some form of PVP broke out later.

So, EngineHouse, you can feel free to retire my character in anyway you see fit. That should help you advance the story without hurting anyone else's enjoyment.

Damrang doesn't fit in very well either but I'm hoping the party dynamic will smooth out. Unfortunately I don't see that happening given the hard line people have taken on technology. I'd like to think we wouldn't actually torture anybody but if we do then Damrang will be escorting Salvin back to town and he'll continue on to the Worldwound.

Salvin - just popping in with a short post to say please hang around a while before giving up on us totally. Here's how I see it so far:

The Mechaniks: Gregory and Vhailor are unabashed fans of the technology, and we are desperate to understand it and see more of it. However neither of us is evil in intent. Odol is probably in this group too, but hasn't been as vocal to date.

The Luddites: Mister Obadiah and Damrang are like the clergy in the dark ages with an outlook currently of technology = evil. However both of them are also not evil themselves.

The Moral Anchor: Salvin - you are there to make sure that we continue to fight on the side of the right, and not slip into our preconceived prejudices and fight each other.

The Event Horizon:
My view on the Helix incident was that we were defending ourselves against their attacks. We had reason not to trust them (they weren't being truthful) as well as them threatening us. My spell was non-lethal for a reason, and we only killed the third adept because he attacked us.

While Obadiah did 'threaten' torture, it wasn't carried out and I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have followed through on the threat if it didn't work. So no actual evil 'act' was carried out.

I know that people view Paladin's and their vows in different ways, but I prefer to be a bit flexible. Faiths of Purity has a Paladin Code for Sarenrae which I don't think we've violated yet. Do you have access to that? - I can type it out if not.

Odol is definitely a Mechanik, but has cooled it because he's trying to not to alienate Obadiah and Damrang in hopes that they will come to a better understanding as they get exposed to more beyond Iadenveigh.

There is zero chance that Odol would condone actual torture. But Odol recognizes an attempt to intimidate when he hears it and was looking for an angle himself. He has no issue with a verbal threat if it is going to lead to a greater good - stopping the zombies and saving Iadenveigh.

That said, I understand a LG character, especially a paladin, having problems with using threats that we don't intend to carry out since that is a form of dishonesty (plus, given that Salvin hasn't had a chance to discuss strategy with the team and is still getting to know them, its understandable if he misunderstands the intent completely). I would expect that Salvin would prefer that we threaten captives with jailing them in Iadenveigh or something similar and this would seem to be something that our characters could sort out in character. I'll tell you that I always struggle with how far to go with Intimidate. Is looking threatening enough or do you need to come up with a credible threat for the target? If the latter, it is awfully tough to come up with credible threats for most foes (especially monsters) without being dishonest about the threat (for a good character).

Like Vhailor, I don't think we've violated the Sarenrae code and I think overall that particular code is one that (mostly) fits this group's philosophy.

I do not know the specific code of Sarenrae; almost every game I've ever played has been homebrew. The books are there for rules to help tell stories. I don't own Faiths of Purity; I have crunch-heavy books since my RL friends and I make up our own worlds.

Here's what I know about the goddess: Known to her faithful as the Dawnflower, the Healing Flame, and the Everlight, Sarenrae teaches temperance and patience in all things. Compassion and peace are her greatest virtues, and if enemies of the faith can be redeemed, they should be. Yet there are those who have no interest in redemption, who glory in slaughter and death. From the remorseless evil of the undead and fiends to the cruelties born in the hearts of mortals, Sarenrae's doctrines preach swift justice delivered by the scimitar's edge. To this end, she expects her faithful to be skilled at swordplay, both as a form of martial art promoting centering of mind and body, and so that when they do enter battle, their foes do not suffer any longer than necessary.

Mostly, I've been looking at that as a devotion to justice and it's part of the reason I've taken a peacemaker role. But my main goal has been to avoid stomping on people because I don't want to go too far into criticizing everything people do that doesn't line up with my character's beliefs. I've been around enough people like that to know it is not fun.

So far as technology goes, I joined the game with the idea that the characters would eventually have a chance to play with a few tech items that probably end up replacing or augmenting the normal "Christmas tree" of magic items a Pathfinder character receives. But there will have to be some discussion in the group before all that can happen, given everyone's divergent views on the subject.

At some point, the paladin probably will demand everyone comes clean with everyone else if he stays with the party. The suspicions and distrust that is present won't go away until that is dealt with. But I'm not sure how to get everyone to a point where they can trust each other enough to do that.

That will probably be my next goal, but it won't happen until we can gel in some manner. I think that is what my character will pray for guidance about.

Honestly, I think I really messed up in my response to the whole torture situation. I was posting quickly on my dinner break from work and it wasn't a good reflection of the character I had in mind or something that would help the group. Salvin should have zeroed in on the mage's assumption that we would immediately resort to torture, pointing out it must reflect their standard operating procedure. But I missed the boat on that, which means more trouble for the character himself.

FYI - the Faiths of Purity code is below. It is as always a guideline, but pretty cool for reference nonetheless.

I think the key is progressing to the point where we know the source of the zombies. If they are indeed coming from Xoud, then we snot em. If they come from the Helix, we snot them. If they are from a third party we scratch heads in confusion.

This is an interesting and pretty timely debate. While I'm loving playing in the group and as Obadiah, I have been struggling of late to see the "light at the end of the tunnel" for him.

I originally envisioned him as a good hearted, but revenge driven farmer who has taken Erastil's teachings as gospel - faith filling the void of his loss as it were.

I've played up the Luddite nature of the character too as I'm concious that tech was the [apparent] cause of his family [and community's] peril.

Hoever given that tech may well play an increasing role in the game I struggling to see how Obadiah will square that off. In my mind's eye I did see a potential point where Damrang and himself walked...

Also not sure if LG or LN is a better fit alignment wise as he's been pretty black, white and blinkered in his views. Should tech be a saviour and not the root of all evil I could see a crisis of faith for Obi lol...

As for Salvin [apologies meant to address this first but seem to have went off on one!] - Mark nailed it as I also see Salvin as potentially the sole voice of reason here... He is the anchor and the balance holder - the redeemer and the truth seeker in a world where lies, half truths and personal prejudices cloud more than the Choking Tower itself...

On a pure flavour note might not a Falchion be a better shout as your primary weapon?

Just my 6 runes worth lol

I think what Mr Obadiah is lacking is a challenge to his rigid faith. If say he happened upon some of the techy things killing zombies, that would give a catalyst for a slow process of revisiting why he hates tech so much.

At the moment, we have black (Mechanik) and white (Luddite) - and to date both the Helix and Delver are grey... as we don't know who if either is fighting for the right in the world.

There are two seperate issues being discussed here:

- Is Salvin forcing the hands of others and making the game less fun for them?

- Is the group unplayable because people have different stances on tech?

Different stances on tech
When I selected these characters I was aware that you all had conflicting outlooks. I did so on purpose. Magic vs technology doesn't have a 'right' answer like good vs evil does. There are basically two ways this can play out:

1) Luddites or Mechaniks leave the party, either on good terms or via PvP. In either case, I will immediately write in replacement characters for them and the party can be unified on the tech vs tradition issue.

2) The various party members gradually become aware of, then come to terms with each other's beliefs as the bond of shared adversity overcomes prejudices.

I'm currently holding out for option 2. Adventures are about conflict, and conflict doesn't have to consist of a CR appropriate encounter - it can be tension amongst the heroes too. I don't see any need to come to an out of game agreement. Just play your characters as you conceived them and we'll see what story unfolds. If you feel it makes sense to PvP, by all means PvP. Those players who lose characters will be able to re-roll and be back in the game as quickly as possible.

Is Salvin forcing people's hands?

Paladins are compelled to object to things. It's right there in the rules. Things is, EVERY character will object to things. All adventurers have personal codes or beliefs of some kind.

I think Salvin is as good a fit for the game as everyone else. I agree that keeping him in the party will make option 2 more likely than option 1, which I think is a good thing since you've all come up with great characters and it would be a shame to see any of them go.

@Obadaih: What do you mean by 'light at the end of the tunnel?'

@EngineHouse; I'm one of these players who likes to think ahead for characters, get a feel how they might progress [not just in terms of mechanics], but character & characterisation

Guess my "light at the end" comment, was a reflection on my own feelings regarding Obadiah - definately not the game itself.

This discussion has actually helped that process as I'm much more aware of potential development for Obadiah :)

Salvin's definately not forcing the hands of the others - if anything our decisions are forcing him into a corner, but like you very rightly put EH - internal challenges are just as fun as external ones.

Thanks for t'input lads, my zeal 'as been renewed :)

Engine'ouse? Wit' name like that no small wonder 'e'll favour t' technomongers! ;)

Ok, I feel a bit better about all this given everyone's responses. I'm still think about exactly what Salvin's next step is. Thank you for putting up the code; that will help me with the character. Pretty much anytime I've heard of problems like this, the paladin was asked to leave since he was ruining everyone else's fun. I did not want to go that route.

Whilst I do not foresee Obadiah becoming a Technophile, I do hope that at some point (sooner rather than later), both parties reach some sort of accord...

..perhaps along the lines of Obadiah/Damrang realising that technology, when in responsible hands, can be a useful tool, and should not be destroyed on sight / defined as evil in and of itself (even if they choose to not use it themselves), and Gregory/Vhailor realising that just because people do not wish to avail themselves of the opportunities that technology offers, it does not make them ignorant Luddites...?

I always picture Damrang as the sort to use technology in a fight fire with fire way, but it'll take a softening of Obadiah's stance before that'll truly happen. As a Dwarf with high strength he's never going to want firearms but he'll probably reach the point of minor tech use if it develops that way.

Engine'ouse? Wit' name like that no small wonder 'e'll favour t' technomongers! ;)

I'm just as keen to bombard you guys with clockwork wielding antagonists as I am to DM for a band of machine users. This big reveal doesn't not neccissarily mean you're now obliged to side with Delve. There are still plenty of blanks in this lovely little picture.

Whilst I do not foresee Obadiah becoming a Technophile, I do hope that at some point (sooner rather than later), both parties reach some sort of accord...

..perhaps along the lines of Obadiah/Damrang realising that technology, when in responsible hands, can be a useful tool, and should not be destroyed on sight / defined as evil in and of itself (even if they choose to not use it themselves), and Gregory/Vhailor realising that just because people do not wish to avail themselves of the opportunities that technology offers, it does not make them ignorant Luddites...?

Yeah I foresee this happening - especially if someone rocks up with a John Deere, then Obidiah could be an instant convert lol.

In the meantime I'm going to enjoy Obi in full Machine Gun Preacher mode [with some Eli Sunday thrown in] :)

Heading to Fargo at 0630 CST Saturday to play a Warmachine tournament, will return ~2300 CST Saturday.

Guys just to give everyone the heads up on my current situation

I work at Uni here in Aberdeen and due to staffing issues my support/teaching commitment is now much higher than I anticipated. term has just started but I typically get very busy very quickly.

In addition to this I'm running my own pbp and have 2 long standing games that I'm part of - as a result I'm having to reluctantly take a back seat on the other pbp games I'm involved with.

This game particularly is one that deserves more input that I can afford over the coming weeks...

Enginehouse has very kindly kept the door open for me, Obadiah is planning on leaving the group, returning to Iadenveigh with the plan to expose the treachery they are suffering. Caveat would be I could [Rl and your goodselves permitting] re-join sometime down the line...

This has been a very tough decision as the game and group are excellent - I've been pushed in some tight RP corners and loved every minute of it. Still trying to get a proper handle on Obadiah, so really hope that I'll be back sometime down the line.

Plan is I'll play out the current combat, then have Obadiah depart for Iadenveigh [and a unlife as a cog zombie no doubt lol]. Just wanted you all to know what we've been deliberating.

Cheers

BD

By way of explanation: I'm using Gametable for my maps. Before, I couldn't work out how to add new pogs so that first map I made was put together extremily inefficiently on Paint. This time I took to time to get new pogs loaded, so now things will run more smoothly.

As well as that - RL games, busy weekend, overtime...the usual reasons for delays like this.

Sorry again for the wait. Should be back to one post per day now, give or take.

Enginehouse with the wait I'm pretty much snowed under work wise, so could you DMPC Obadiah for the combat and I'll try and dip back in for his farewell speech.

Regards

BD

Sure thing

Appreciate it thanks.

I have a quick rules question, EngineHouse. I've never played a Paladin before. I know that ,y lay on hands ability is a swift action when I use it on myself. Is that a swift action I can only do on my turn (like casting a quickened spell), or is it a swift action that I can do in other people's turns as well (like talking).

Salvin will heal himself of damage the first chance he gets, I just don't want to skip a round a healing because I didn't know I could use the ability out of turn as a swift action.

You can only take swift actions (like laying on hands on yourself) on your turn.

For clarification, 'immediate' actions (which is not what lay on hands is) can be done outside your turn, but use-up your swift action slot on your following turn.

Cool, thanks. I knew I played with someone who did it different so I didn't know the core ruling.

Sorry about moving Damrang. I was afraid a couple of Sleep spells or a Glitterdust/Grease combo would take out the whole group. Plus I really don't do range too well.

It's all good, I totally understand your reasoning.

Damrang, sadly, doesn't. And he wishes he was faster.

And he wishes he was faster.

LOL, maybe we can get you a mount to ride in combat.

I will be getting married on Saturday, and as such my posting rate will drop slightly until Sunday evening. Feel free to DMPC me along if necessary.

Congrat's man! Best wishes to you and your better 'alf to be :)

Congrats! I didn't realize until now that you and I are both playing dwarves together in two campaigns right now. I'm Feigr in the other one.

And the strange little Gnome with questionable morals is the malevolent eyeball ;)

Yeah I looked at that and had to laugh. :D

I love dwarves and half-orcs, what can I say?

Thank you all for the congrats, we had a great time. BBQ, alcohol, and dancing for all.

Glad everything went off without a hitch and congrats again!

...the grinding pain of bones and flesh pulling back together serving better than smelling salts.

That's a really cool description of healing magic. I've always been a bit annoyed by descriptions along the lines of 'a white glow increases your health total by 25%'. Consider this a fluff house rule - from now on cure spells hurt.

FYI - I'll be out of town tomorrow, so probably won't get a chance to put in an update until Sunday evening my time (in roughly 48ish hours from this post).

Please DMPC me if required to keep things moving.

If I was in your position I'd be becoming worried the game was getting too linear. I assure you that after the next fight it's going to open out hugely. There'll be a map and everything.

Enginehouse and all - just a forward notice, from 14th December to 10th January I will be going on vacation back downunder to visit relatives and whatnot.

While I will retain net access throughout the trip, it's likely that my available online time and therefore post rate will drop down. If needed at any time, please feel free to DMPC Vhailor to keep things rolling onwards.

Sorry for dropping off the radar for a while; I lost my internet connection for a few days, and only just managed to re-instate it :-/ Everything should be normal from now on, though :-)

About healing, will we have enough time to recharge spells twice before we move out or just once? I'm not exactly sure of what time of day it is right now.

ten vials of alchemist's fire, ten viles of acid, a healer's kit, five doses of bloodblock and ten potions of cure light wounds.

I call dibs on some of the fire and acid, and one cure light :)

I'll be easing off progressing the game for a few days to give you guys some time to do some dialogue. It suspect you've got a lot ot talk over.

My posting will be a little off/on starting tomorrow afternoon, I'm going in for elective eye surgery and while I'm sure the painkillers will have me feeling smurfy I won't be allowed to strain my eyes for a few days.