Balek Nine-fingered |
Don't buy an armored kilt. It chafes a lot and Erastil wants those parts in working order to produce the next generation. ;)
Well-described foes, certainly (and the whole "bored sadist" thing was coming through quite clearly.
Douglas Muir 406 |
Well-described foes, certainly (and the whole "bored sadist" thing was coming through quite clearly.
You'll notice that all their weaknesses were on the RP side. Mechanically, these guys could kill you all without breaking a sweat.
Once someone uses the scroll to ask for help, the clock is ticking. Help is on the way. The path to victory was not to fight them -- they're unbeatable in direct combat. The trick instead was to distract, delay, and buy time. The dwarf is an egotistical fanatic with no Sense Motive: fake a conversion experience, or at least draw him into a discussion of theology. Lewis is a snob; a good Knowledge (nobility) check would keep him distracted for a few rounds. Stroke his ego, appease his vanity. Ask him for a performance! Playing Team Evil against each other, while dangerous, could be another option. They're not one big happy family. They wouldn't actually fight and kill each other, but a good enough Bluff or Diplomacy check (or even just a few clever jibes) could start a screaming argument that might drag on for a while. Think Bilbo and the trolls, or Bart and Sideshow Bob.
Osei Otieno |
Balek Nine-fingered wrote:Well-described foes, certainly (and the whole "bored sadist" thing was coming through quite clearly.You'll notice that all their weaknesses were on the RP side. Mechanically, these guys could kill you all without breaking a sweat.
Once someone uses the scroll to ask for help, the clock is ticking. Help is on the way. The path to victory was not to fight them -- they're unbeatable in direct combat. The trick instead was to distract, delay, and buy time. The dwarf is an egotistical fanatic with no Sense Motive: fake a conversion experience, or at least draw him into a discussion of theology. Lewis is a snob; a good Knowledge (nobility) check would keep him distracted for a few rounds. Stroke his ego, appease his vanity. Ask him for a performance! Playing Team Evil against each other, while dangerous, could be another option. They're not one big happy family. They wouldn't actually fight and kill each other, but a good enough Bluff or Diplomacy check (or even just a few clever jibes) could start a screaming argument that might drag on for a while. Think Bilbo and the trolls, or Bart and Sideshow Bob.
Blarg. I almost came down the ladder at some point to inject myself (as peacefully as possible) into their conversation to stall. I think I was too focused on game mechanics and not thinking enough about their personalities -- fail!
Douglas Muir 406 |
So Blue Team's job was to delay and distract. What then of Red Team? Well, you'll notice that the villains rode off on a gigantic buzzing insect monster. (An advanced fiendish wasp, more or less.) This is the "Vrexel" that was mentioned early on, yes? Well, Vrexel was parked upstairs, just a few yards from the back exit. And he wasn't concealed particularly well -- any reasonably competent search of the area would turn him up.
Vrexel was about CR 5 -- by far the weakest link in Team Evil. Barring bad die rolls, Red Team could take Vrexel down. Once the fight was under way, you would have about three rounds to finish the job before the bad guys came boiling upstairs.
That done, it would be Game Over for the villains. The dwarf has just a 20' move. They couldn't possibly get back to the Worldwound before the rescuers show up. In a fight on open ground, the advantage is with the guys with numbers, missile weapons and Fireball spells. The demon and Lewis might escape (Lewis, no fool, has Expeditious Retreat literally in his back pocket) but the dwarf and Vidkun would almost certainly be killed or captured.
TLDR: the winning strategies were [Team Blue] delay and distract the bad guys, and/or [Team Red] find and kill their mount.
Osei Otieno |
Well, it was a fun introduction, even if we missed it a bit. Given your language above, I expect we don't level up? =D
I'm all for continuing into WotR if everyone else is - and I, for one, would like this kind of interaction to continue, as opposed to the hack n slash some adventures become. I enjoy the NPCs and personalities, and will do my best to develop Osei as a character who interacts more with them - though he is currently kind of a stick in the mud ...
Sir Constantine Godalming |
I am certain that we can all have a great talk about those particular bag guys, names descriptions and an overall discussion of what could go better next time. I am certain that no one missed the utter cowardice of the (evil bad guy) mage.
SGC won't be faking conversions or telling other lies, but I do look forward to continuing the adventure.
On a side note, the other "win" might have been keeping more of team red alive ; )
Plus burning oil and driving the mount away is another "win" strategy.
Osei Otieno |
I am certain that no one missed the utter cowardice of the mage.
Is this regarding Osei or Cringing Robe Guy? If Osei, that's not exactly what kept him upstairs - it was less fear, and more of a rational approach to gather intelligence on the enemies. He is not a warrior, rushing into the thick of battle. Osei was wary of engaging them, yes, but it was a completely irrational thing to do in his mind. That's not his style. Maybe he's closer to a neutral alignment than 'good'. Hmm ...
Balek Nine-fingered |
Speaking of character: yes, Balek is a little bit sententious. I figured a priest of Erastil would probably learn a lot of traditional proverbs, and do some of his thinking by quoting them, selecting the correct one, and all that. Hope the effect is coming across reasonably well and isn't driving anyone else up the wall.
Douglas Muir 406 |
I think I was too focused on game mechanics and not thinking enough about their personalities
The one thing everyone focused on was Cringing Robed Guy: everyone was trying to talk him around. I can see why that seemed worth trying, but no. Putting aside whether he's even redeemable, his cowardice means that you couldn't even begin to try unless you were already clearly winning against his allies. He's a coward, right? No amount of persuasion is going to get him to join a losing side.
Even once combat started, there were a few ways to leverage the NPC personalities. The dwarf hates paladins and would love to show Deskari's superiority, so challenging him to single combat could work. (Note: don't try this generally. Very few villains will accept a challenge to single combat, and even the dwarf would only do it against an obviously inferior foe. And the instant he thought he was in trouble, he'd cheat.) You'd probably end up horribly mutilated, but he'd waste a few rounds toying with you. Even in combat, Lewis could be distracted, especially with flattery. Or enraged, for instance by mocking him or -- worse yet -- throwing dirt or spitting on his white, perfectly pressed clothing. Not that enraging Lewis would necessarily be a good idea, of course. Just saying.
If NPC personalities don't affect NPC actions, for good or ill, then they're just wallpaper; the grumpy dwarf can be reskinned as the happy dwarf, and it makes no difference. That strikes me as a less-fun way to play.
Takka of the Toad |
It's true. That being said, I enjoyed this romp into things and it was certainly a powerful twist from the usual formula. Typically, I think, most games either start with something relatively simple being the build up to a bigger picture, or in the case of WotR normally, paints an epic backdrop for you to start your baddie slaying quests on (say, a demon king chopping off the head of a silver dragon while you're stuck fighting maggots... wooooo...)
This one just tossed us in, and honestly, it's not bad in retrospect. Wrath of the Righteous really is about influencing NPCs as much as it is slaying demons. Why shouldn't encounters be built around similar mechanics (that is, playing to NPC personalities)? I think now that we know that going forward, we can think outside the box a bit more (after all, stalling is something that rarely comes up, and it's almost always through combat.)
Haruka Shiraboshi |
Realistically I would hope people put ranks into sense motive. I was fighting hard to play my skill points as assigned....I think it's easy to play things you don't have....
for skills its easy, for intelligence its hard(which is why storys with super smart characters are rarely from their perspective), knowledge is easyer(just a little reasearch), skills (exspecialy craft) are in between in difficulty as even if you don't know how its done you still know what the result should belike( I don't know how to craft a fine chest, but describing one is easy)
Sir Constantine Godalming |
I think Takka is gonna study under Sir Constantine now to become a paladin proper. Probably a ranged smite machine.
All this time Takka has been seeing SCG like an older brother, teasing each other and training, but now he suddenly sees things differently.
Douglas Muir 406 |
Got a little flattened over the weekend -- combination of work and mild sickishness. I'm away from home for six weeks in Beirut, Lebanon, and I think I'm just a bit homesick and under the weather. Spent the weekend mostly offline with a Breaking Bad marathon (Go, Mister White! Science!), but should be back in a day or so.
(Walter White starts off as Lawful Neutral, in Season Two he's now well into Lawful Evil territory, some regrets notwithstanding, and I'm pretty sure he's going to end up Neutral Evil. Skyler is Lawful Good -- annoying sometimes perhaps, but Lawful Good. Jesse looks to stay Chaotic Neutral throughout, and Tuco of course is pure perfect CE.)
Osei Otieno |
(Walter White starts off as Lawful Neutral, in Season Two he's now well into Lawful Evil territory, some regrets notwithstanding, and I'm pretty sure he's going to end up Neutral Evil. Skyler is Lawful Good -- annoying sometimes perhaps, but Lawful Good. Jesse looks to stay Chaotic Neutral throughout, and Tuco of course is pure perfect CE.)
Such an amazing story told in that show, not a flaw in it from my point of view and every character is compelling and well-developed. I've finished through Episode 5 of the last season, but not the entire series. It is so intense, I can't mainline the last couple seasons like I could the early ones -- that and I don't want it to end, though it is the way of all things.
As far as alignments, I agree with your WW, but not Skyler - a least not later in the series; if she started LG, she ended up somewhere more in the NG or CG territory. I would put Jesse more in CG territory - he seems to have many hangups regarding violence and really taking advantage of people (mainly all talk). The only person who stays at LG would be Hank, I believe.
Douglas Muir 406 |
Midway through Season Two, Skyler is pretty clearly LG -- look at how she goes to confront Jesse for "selling marijuana" in Season One, or her attitude towards Marie's shoplifting, or her organized, rule-following, take-charge attitude towards life in general. But these characters definitely move over time, so we'll see.
Jesse isn't evil, and you could even point to some minor moments of generosity and self-sacrifice, like when he takes the rap for his little brother's joint. But OTOH I don't think a meth cook / meth dealer gets to have a G in his alignment line. He's doing a lot of damage, and he really doesn't care as long as the money's good. And you'll notice he's fine with *Walt* killing the drug dealer in the cellar. He just doesn't want to do it himself. That suggests he's not so much good as squeamish.
Hank has become a really interesting character. In the beginning he's presented as a complete meathead, a overbearing, macho doofus who's thoughtlessly belittling of Walt and also more than a bit of a sexist and a bigot. All of which are true! But he's also an honest cop who's really good at his job. He struggles with his wife's issues, tries in his way to be a backup father to Walt Jr., and offers unqualified support to Walt and Skyler. Anyway, yeah, definitely LG.
Favorite minor character so far: Tuco's uncle. Ding!
Osei Otieno |
I don't disagree about Skyler early in the series, but in S3 and S4 her character develops quite a bit - I would almost push her into *N territory, but I think she maintains *G. Your points about Jessie (and meth dealing in general) are fair, I'll cede the CG sentiment. CN is probably accurate. Hank is a great character, and continues to be as far as I've seen.
My memories of the earlier seasons are old, I should go back and watch them again. They would be equally, if not more, entertaining.
Douglas Muir 406 |
You don't want to overdo it. Most of the time, using alignment on another medium (or the real world) is a mug's game, about as meaningful as those "What Season Of The Year Are You?" quizzes on Facebook. That said, once in a while the alignments do fit neatly -- and that's pretty cool, when it happens.
Douglas Muir 406 |
It's all Walt IMO. It's Walt through and through. There are people who think Heisenberg is some sort of dissociation or a role Walt plays. I firmly disagree. Heisenberg was always there. It took a combination of bad luck, outside pressure, and really poor choices on Walt's part to bring him out and make him the dominant aspect. But he wasn't created out of nothing.
Subthemes of this show: Living With Problems In A Marriage; Failures of American Social Policy; and Issues In Masculinity. (Yeah, those make it sound really boring. It's... not.)
Douglas Muir 406 |
In D&D terms, I suppose you could have dull, slightly pudgy, bespectacled Mr. White the second-rate Lawful Neutral professor of alchemy, and his Mindchemist alter ego: lean, mean Heisenberg, the Man Who Knocks, Neutral Evil crime lord and stone cold killer.
Also in D&D terms, I'm midway through Season Two and Walt is totally Lawful Evil here. He's just doing what he has to do, he thinks. The junkie thieves have to die because they broke the rules and stole from him. (As opposed to CE Tuco, who would kill to create fear, or just because he felt like it.)
Osei Otieno |
Osei Otieno |
It's probably the highest quality television show I've ever seen. Not that I'm an aficionado, but it's nearly flawless. The direction, acting (every character ...every one is great) and production are all top notch.
Haruka Shiraboshi |
You don't want to overdo it. Most of the time, using alignment on another medium (or the real world) is a mug's game, about as meaningful as those "What Season Of The Year Are You?" quizzes on Facebook. That said, once in a while the alignments do fit neatly -- and that's pretty cool, when it happens.
the first explanation of the alignment system I encountered was with examples ( mainly from Harry Potter).
There are charakters that fit an alignment absolutly like The Joker or Jack Slash for CE, but more complex characters (or real people) rarely fully fit into one alignment.Haruka Shiraboshi |
FYI- one of the traits I went back and forth on selecting was the prehensile whip trait. I went back and forth many times on the trait selection, but alas it was not to be.
wow, SCG is way better planed than Haruka, whose planing took aproximatly an hour :).
but I have finaly found the inspiration for her personalty I was lacking.
Sir Constantine Godalming |
@Haruka
Yeah but the name even took awhile, I think this alias without a game has been around a long long time. I found the process be enjoyable. I recommend everyone give it a try, character creation spread out over months.....
Re: game thread.
Sorry couldn't let the only other half orc paladin I know in the city leave without a quick chat, and attempt to build a connection to both her and the Eagle Watch......
Douglas Muir 406 |
On a completely unrelated topic: If you like comics, or space-opera science fiction, or just cool stories in graphic novel form, you probably want to go read Bryan K. Vaughan's "Saga" now. It's... really good.
Also, it has Lying Cat. And if you don't like Lying Cat, I really don't know what to say to you. (And in D&D terms, Lying Cat is one of the most perfectly Lawful Neutral characters you're ever going to meet.)
MannyGoblin |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On a completely unrelated topic: If you like comics, or space-opera science fiction, or just cool stories in graphic novel form, you probably want to go read Bryan K. Vaughan's "Saga" now. It's... really good.
Also, it has Lying Cat. And if you don't like Lying Cat, I really don't know what to say to you. (And in D&D terms, Lying Cat is one of the most perfectly Lawful Neutral characters you're ever going to meet.)
Lying.
Osei Otieno |
People tend to either like Saga a lot, or not.
I though Fables was quite strong until the War ended, and has been gradually downhill since. I have the first five or six volumes, but then I stopped.
I agree the war was the peak, but I very much enjoyed the Mr. Dark storyline.