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DM Carbide's Kingmaker IC

Game Master John Woodford

Kingmaker AP Part 1: Stolen Land (completed)
Kingmaker AP Part 2: Rivers Run Red

COMBAT MAP


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Weakly Godlike Entity

I'm trying to get the kingdom rules extracted for you to look at.


Weakly Godlike Entity

Success! See the link in the Campaign Information tab.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]

There are also the Kingdom rules from Ultimate Campaign, which is part of the PRD. Not certain what the changes/differences are.


Male Human Oracle of Time (Seer) 4

Gang,

I think we should probably do the business of Kingdom Building here, so it doesn't get in the way of role-playing. I took a look at the Kingdom Rules, and it looks like we need to make a few decisions. I've put together a crude (and incomplete) Kingdom Sheet, which I've appended below.

1. Name - we should probably handle this in character
2. Alignment - Zlotii is N, but I'm OK with some Lawful thrown in
3. Leadership - I think Zlotii would be best as the councilor. Anyone else want to put in dibs for a role?
4. I'm not sure where the Stag Lord's fort is. Which hex is it?
5. Do we set our edicts now, or does that come later?

Kingdom Name:
Alignment:
Size:
Control DC:
Population:

Economy:
Bonuses
Buildings Edicts Leadership Resources Alignment
Penalties
Edicts Unrest Vacancies Other

Loyalty:
Bonuses
Buildings Edicts Leadership Resources Alignment
Penalties
Edicts Unrest Vacancies Other

Stability:
Bonuses
Buildings Events Leadership Resources Alignment
Penalties
Edicts Unrest Vacancies Other


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]
Doktor Zlotii Medvyed wrote:

Gang,

I think we should probably do the business of Kingdom Building here, so it doesn't get in the way of role-playing.

So very much this.

To the other points...
1) Agreed.
2) Rufus' personal preferences would be either N or NG. From a simple mechanics standpoint, Stability seems the save most commonly in play, from an RP standpoint, those are probably my two favorite alignments, barring the necessity of playing a different one for class requirements, (Yes, I actually do play Paladins fairly frequently...)
3) Rufus is actually effective in any Position... He just makes more sense in certain positions rather than others.
4) It doesn't seem to be on the Campaign Map. If I remember correctly from other Kingmaker Campaigns I have played in, it is one of two hexes further down the river Southwest from the hex in which it converges.
5) If I remember correctly, we can change edicts on a monthly/turn basis, but some make more sense to set for at least a year.


Weakly Godlike Entity

I've just linked the final exploration map on the Campaign Info tab.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]

Alright, so it is one more hex Southwest of the hex where the two rivers join.

Am I correct in guessing that the bottom-most hexes mark the Southernmost(ish) extent of the Charter?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've got something to help us with the kingdom stuff. Take a look at this:

Kingmaker Sheet

The URL is safe, it leads to a kingdom sheet for anyone to edit. I've started putting information into the document but since we haven't decided roles yet its very incomplete. The document does include calculations for all the important stuff on the sheet so we just need to import the numbers.

As for my role... well, as I see it, Katya is very clearly going down the road of Magister.


M Human Ranger (Beastmaster) 4 (HP 33/33 | AC:17/18 with shield | T:13 | FF:14/16 | CMB: +6 | CMD:19 | Fort:+4 | Ref:+7 | Will:+4 | Init:+3 | Perc: +9/+11 in Forest terrain | Speed 30)

I'm glad Katya found the kingdom sheet; I would've gone looking for it if she hadn't.

I was until recently involved in a very different KM game that focused more on the kingdom building aspects of the game. Since it was PbP, it fell apart very quickly due to, I think, a lack of roleplaying. People kind of lost interest in the crunchiness of the kingdom building minigame. However, there are a couple of things I think I learned that could be useful.

These are the basics, for anybody who hasn't had time to look through the Kingdom Building rules (actually, a question here- are we using the Kingmaker rules or the ones on the PRD? The PRD has more options than the base KM rules and if I had to pick I'd go with the PRD simply due to ease of access):

The most important stats a Kingdom has are Economy, Loyalty and Stability. These work basically like saving throws.

Economy is how robust your kingdom's economy is, and it is used to raise taxes and absorb economic disasters.

Loyalty is how much your people like you, and is used to keep them from killing you all in your sleep.

Stability is how stable your society is. This is the most abstract, it's sort of a combination of your law enforcement, religious institutions, and community spirit. It's used to keep your kingdom secure in times of crisis.

Control DC is based on how big your kingdom is and is the DC for checks with the first three stats.

Defense Modifier is how well defended you are and will come up later, but it's pretty self-explanatory. It's a modifier to defense.

Nation building is done in build points, or BP. One BP = approximately 4,000 gp. Every month you need to pay your kingdom's upkeep in BP or people become upset, but you gain BP based on an Economy check every month as well. You also use BP to buy buildings and other improvements, which modify the kingdom's stats.

Unrest is like reverse hit points. Gain too much of this and your kingdom breaks up.

Edicts are various decisions you make related to government, and affect your stats.

All of the leaders affect stats in some way. There are 11 leadership positions, each of which give a bonus to a kingdom roll based on the character's appropriate attribute modifier; most roles have 2 possible applicable attributes. NPCs can fill roles.

Ruler (Cha): Economy, Loyalty, or Stability bonus. Vacancy increases Unrest and kingdom can't claim new hexes, build roads or farms, or build city districts. Basically, this role needs to be filled.
Councilor (Wis / Cha): Loyalty bonus. Vacancy penalty to Loyalty and Unrest.
Grand Diplomat (Int / Cha): Stability bonus/penalty.
High Priest(Wis / Cha): Stability bonus/penalty. Vacancy also increases Unrest.
Magister(Int / Cha): Economy bonus/penalty.
General(Str / Cha): Stability bonus/penalty.
Marshal(Dex / Wis): Economy bonus/penalty.
Royal Assassin(Str / Dex): Loyalty and Unrest bonus. The only role with no penalty for vacancy.
Spymaster(Dex / Int): Economy, Loyalty, or Stability bonus- can change allocation at will. Economy and Unrest penalty.
Treasurer(Int / Wis): Economy bonus/penalty.
Warden(Str / Con): Loyalty bonus/penalty. Vacancy also penalizes Stability.

Stability rolls are the most common. A small kingdom doesn't have to worry too much about Unrest at first. At a minimum we'd probably want Ruler, Grand Diplomat, High Priest, General, and Spymaster filled by characters with the highest possible modifiers. Spymaster's a really interesting role since they can shift their modifier around as needed.

I took a quick look at PC sheets and everybody's strengths are:

Bea- STR+3/DEX,CHA+2; General/Warden+3, Councilor/Diplomat/Priest+2
Doc- CHA+3/WIS+2; Ruler/Councilor/Diplomat/Priest/Magister/General+3
Ed- INT+4/DEX,CON,WIS+2; Diplomat/Magister/Spymaster/Treasurer+4
Ruf- STR+2/CHA+2; Ruler/Councilor/Diplomat/Priest/Magister/General+2
Kat- INT+4/CHA+2; Diplomat/Magister/Spymaster/Treasurer+4
Vas- DEX+3/STR,WIS+2; Marshal/Assassin/Spymaster+3, Councilor/Priest/Treasurer+2

Obviously, there are best mechanical choices and best RP choices. I won't weigh in on RP choices other than Vasily's. His personal preference would be Warden, but he'd be a fine Marshal given his background as a semi-nobleman working with a castle's armsmen or a fine Spymaster given his experience working with/against bandits.

I don't know about the various NPCs top mods. Could you give us a hint about where they'd be best, DM?

Sorry for the long post, but I really like the kingdom building aspect of the game.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]

At this point, in terms of Leadership roles, it is almost more important that we have a body filling them than that the body in question have a particularly high bonus. The 'empty slot' penalties can be harsh. That said, we don't have enough PC's to fill all the roles as there are eleven, only one of which doesn't have a penalty assigned for vacancy.
What NPC(s) can we just 'slot in' & who do we have that will require RP?

Also, DM Carbide, have you looked at the Kingdom Rules in Ultimate Campaign by comparison to the rules from Kingmaker? While they change a few of the names for things, they also add some things that can be helpful, such as if we wish to establish something other than a Monarchy. Ultimate Campaign is available as part of the PRD, so you don't have to purchase it if you haven't already.

DM Carbide wrote:
Rufus, there are several well-known people here in the community--Beatrix, a holy warrior of Erastil; Doktor Zlotii Medvyed, a somewhat eccentric healer; Edvard Zamoyski, an arcanist of some sort (those are the PCs); Havrin Stahl, a skilled hunter; Adam Burlevogne, a Surtovan court bard and current functionary in the government; Oleg and Svetlana Leveton, a pair of traders; Kesten Garess, a mercenary captain who's acting as a guard commander; and Jhod Kavken, a priest of Erastil. There's also a priestess of Erastil named Sabrina, who lives at a temple in the forest.

Can we assume the 'former PC' NPC's are available to fill Leadership posts?

If so, I would recommend Adam as either Councillor, Treasurer, Grand Diplomat, or possibly even High Priest (I thought I remembered he had a level of either Cleric or Inquisitor). I think Havrin would work well as either General, Marshal, or Warden. Sabrina sounds like she would serve well as either High Priest (at least to start) or Warden (assuming I am recalling correctly that the Warden is the position responsible for the 'ecology' of the Kingdom...)
Understand I am making these recommendations based more on what I recall of their posting RP, rather than the mechanical benefits. As time goes on & the Kingdom grows, the benefits the Leadership positions provide will become less & less important by comparison to the benefits from structures...

Andoran

Rufus Fitzroi wrote:


Can we assume the 'former PC' NPC's are available to fill Leadership posts?
If so, I would recommend Adam as either Councillor, Treasurer, Grand Diplomat, or possibly even High Priest (I thought I remembered he had a level of either Cleric or Inquisitor). I think Havrin would work well as either General, Marshal, or Warden. Sabrina sounds like she would serve well as either High Priest (at least to start) or Warden (assuming I am recalling correctly that the Warden...

I'll add a couple of suggestions for PCs and NPCs based on RP, considering stats secondary. I'm don't know the new PCs well just because they haven't been with us for long, so don't let this imply that I think an NPC should have a role that you'd rather have your character take. For PCs that I've placed, these are just suggestions.

Ruler (Cha): We've discussed this a bit before and I believe the consensus was that Bea should take this role. Please speak up if you feel otherwise.
Councilor (Wis / Cha): Zlotii
Grand Diplomat (Int / Cha): Vasily?
High Priest(Wis / Cha): Sabrina
Magister(Int / Cha): Katya
General(Str / Cha): Jacyn
Marshal(Dex / Wis): Havrin
Royal Assassin(Str / Dex): Vasily?
Spymaster(Dex / Int): Edvard
Treasurer(Int / Wis): Adam
Warden(Str / Con): Rufus


Male Human Oracle of Time (Seer) 4

I'm cool with Buggula's list, with a few points for clarification:

General is listed as Jacyn. Do you mean Kesten?
High Priest is listed as Sabrina, but mmaybe Jhod is an option?

Also, the big question - What do we name our new town / kingdom?

Being a total suck-up, the Dok would like to name the town Fort Gurev after his uncle, the head of the Medvyed family.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]

Okay, I've been running around in circles, trying to figure out what is bugging me about things & I think I've finally figured it out. This is going to come off as rather harsh & I own that.

Right now, as near as I can see, we have no business forging & leading a nation.

Up to this point, we have been a band of adventurers, being adventurers. Founding & leading a nation is a completely different mindset & we seem to still be in 'adventurer' mindset. To illustrate my point, I'm going to respond to your Leadership role suggestions Count Buggula.

Count Buggula wrote:
Ruler (Cha): We've discussed this a bit before and I believe the consensus was that Bea should take this role. Please speak up if you feel otherwise.

The Leader of a new nation, particularly one who sees themselves as a Populist as, by her own words Bea does, must have a vision or goal for why they should be leader. I also didn't see a reason for that. I'm not saying the leader should be 'my way or the highway', I'm saying when somebody asks Bea if she is the Leader of this community, she should be able to immediately say "Yes, *here* is why."

*here* being whatever her vision for that community is. If she doesn't have one beyond 'I am trying to make up for the mistakes of my past', then she needs to know or consider why/how founding & leading a new nation makes up for the mistakes of her past. She needs a reason why she should lead & it needs to be something better than 'because I provide a +X bonus to that particular kingdom modifier. Mechanical bonuses are comparatively easy to find, causes that NPC's are willing to die for, much less so.

Count Buggula wrote:
Councilor (Wis / Cha): Zlotii

...Why?

The Councillor is 'the voice of the Common People' in the Leadership Council. The voice of the people needs to present as being cognizant of the people, too the people they claim to represent. The good Doktor barely seems cognizant of where/when he is most times. Great Role Playing, not so good advocating for the welfare of the citizenry.

Count Buggula wrote:
Grand Diplomat (Int / Cha): Vasily?

Again, why? Your Diplomat is your second face/voice for your nation to the nations outside. You absolutely need to be able to trust them to argue as best they are able for your nation's well-being to those peoples outside. Why would you trust this position to someone you just met, it doesn't matter how good their credentials are, you don't know them well enough to trust them to be your people's 'public face' to the rest of the world.

Count Buggula wrote:
High Priest(Wis / Cha): Sabrina

This I can see, though Jhod would be more conventionally... reassuring to outsiders. But if she's our High Priestess, we aren't that concerned with what Outsiders think of her.

Count Buggula wrote:
Magister(Int / Cha): Katya

Again, solid choice. She obviously has the skills for the position, as well as the temperament.

Count Buggula wrote:
General(Str / Cha): Jacyn

Once more, solid choice; particularly as we also have strong contenders for the other positions he would seem to be well suited for.

Count Buggula wrote:
Marshal(Dex / Wis): Havrin

As my comment regarding Warden in my previous post proved to actually be better meant for Marshal, (I had the two positions switched in my head when I was 'talking' about them), this is also a solid recommendation.

Count Buggula wrote:
Royal Assassin(Str / Dex): Vasily?

In the Ultimate Campaign rewrite for Kingdom rules they rename this position as the Enforcer & clarify that the position addresses 'dealing' with Criminal & Malcontent behavior within the Kingdom, said dealings not necessarily involving assassinations. That said, as he pointed out, the position is the only one not to have a penalty for remaining empty... Which is to say, I don't believe you can make a bad selection.

Count Buggula wrote:
Spymaster(Dex / Int): Edvard

At the risk of meta-gaming; Bards, Rogues, Witches & Wizards have the best 'skill set' for 'Intelligence Gathering', so again, solid choice. I hadn't noticed anyone showing a real RP bent toward that manner of activity, other than possibly Adam, so I can't say that anyone else would make a better choice.

Count Buggula wrote:
Treasurer(Int / Wis): Adam

Speaking of Adam, while personally Rufus would prefer him as Grand Diplomat, for reasons I will go into later, I can certainly see Adam preferring to be the one holding the purse-strings. So, once more, solid choice.

Count Buggula wrote:
Warden(Str / Con): Rufus

It's certainly not a bad choice. Given his training, Rufus can actually fill any Leadership Council position adequately, it's pretty much what he was raised to be from childhood. His personal preferences would be for certain other positions, but he could fill it; even fill it well, assuming part of his duties would be mediating & adjudicating disputes among the citizenry.

.

Okay, those were my...
Opinions, I'm not saying any of your choices were wrong so much as I will need more convincing that they were best, at least the ones I critiqued. Having answers to my questions will go a long ways towards adjusting my opinions.

.

My counter proposals & why:

Ruler: Well, Rufus. Yes, I recognize he is a completely unknown quantity & has no actual experience with any of the other characters. Not to mention, reeks of blatant power grab. He probably doesn't even provide a better mechanical bonus than Bea.
That said, as I said, the Ruler needs to be able to answer the question "Do you Lead here?" with a "Yes, *here* is why.". In Rufus' case, the answer would be "Yes. Nowhere on the face of Avistan, on the face of Golarion itself for that matter, is there a place the Mensen can call their own. Though I am not one, though the fact that I first found love among their number may seem perverse, I have & they are a people dear to me. I would see them with a safe haven. Veiligheid will be their safe haven, if it should require the last drop of blood within my frame."

Word usage:
For those of you wandering just what the heck I'm talking about, I use Dutch for Halfling when I post & Mensen is Dutch for 'People', so when Rufus says Mensen, he is actually talking about Halflings.
Veiligheid means 'Safety' & Thuis means 'Home' in Dutch, so I chose that as what Rufus would want to name the place.

It's a little bit annoying that Paizo went to the trouble to come up with 'self-names' for many of the NPC Monster Races, but didn't bother to come up with a different name for a PC Race when the used name is so clearly racist... You can't tell I like Halflings, can you?

Councilor: ... Unfortunately all the choices among the PC's that Rufus would feel would make good Councilors, would probably serve better in other positions. That said, he actually would consider Bea a solid choice for Councilor, for similar reasons to why he would consider her a good one as Grand Diplomat, if anyone should know what the common folk need, it would be an Erastil Worshiper...

Grand Diplomat: Well, Rufus' first choice would actually be Adam, as I stated earlier. As I can definitely see Adam preferring Treasurer as I also pointed out, Bea would also be a strong choice in his mind. As a Paladin of Erastil, she would hopefully understand that defending your home with words is preferable to force whenever possible.

Yes, I recognize that leaves the good Doktor out of the Council, which for both meta-game & IC reasons is not to be desired. The best suggestion I can think of would be possibly switching him & Sabrina. Those same qualities which would make Bea a good Councilor are applicable for Sabrina, and an 'otherworldly' High Priest is much less of a detriment than a Councillor.

In terms of Nation/Town names, Rufus' preferences would be Veiligheid & Thuis, respectively. As he has no desire to 'Suck Up' to anyone in public authority within Brevoy, he would be quite vehemently against naming the town after a member of Brevic Nobility.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]

Okay, I felt this needed a separate post because it is really a separate matter, but I wanted to address:

Bea wrote:
To clarify, I was assuming Rufus and Vasily were the ones who had provided the information in DM Carbide's post. Wasn't meaning to completely snuff you, just mostly ignoring the bit about Rakshasa.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really affect anything I posted.

To Rufus' observation; Bea proclaimed herself a Populist Ruler, then asked for advice or opinions & when she got some she didn't like, she proceeded to ignore the person giving them in favor of advice & opinions from someone she already knew and 'presumably' valued. She didn't even bother to ask for clarification of what the heck he was alluding to, she just 'swept it under the rug'. Also, the simple fact was that Rufus had a lot more to offer than the bare minimum presented in DM Carbide's post. He just didn't want to simply 'vomit' the suggestions forth if he wasn't certain Bea actually wanted them, which she established, by her reaction (or at least his interpretation of her reaction), she did not.


M Human Ranger (Beastmaster) 4 (HP 33/33 | AC:17/18 with shield | T:13 | FF:14/16 | CMB: +6 | CMD:19 | Fort:+4 | Ref:+7 | Will:+4 | Init:+3 | Perc: +9/+11 in Forest terrain | Speed 30)

To answer the 'why would you trust someone you just met' question, I'd go back to DM Carbide's intro post for Rufus and Vasily. To me it looked like he was trying to skip a few months to get us to the actual beginning of the first kingdom building turn. RP-wise our current scene is set before that, but OOC our discussion is set after/during that.

Basically, by the end of a few months worth of working with settlers and actually claiming the Stag Lord's Fort hex/building the city (i.e.- Kingdom Building turn 0), all of the motivational/getting to know you stuff would have shaken out already.

And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost. Vasily would argue that we need to worry about getting through our first winter far more than we need to worry about the motivation of a future king. A king can have grand plans and a motivating philosophy. A village mayor, which is essentially what we're looking at having for the first 10 or so turns at least, needs to be focused on practicalities.


Sorry I didn't make a post yesterday, spent some time working my way through the kingdom rules. I'll have a post up later today.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]
Vasily Lyesnayevich wrote:
And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost. Vasily would argue that we need to worry about getting through our first winter far more than we need to worry about the motivation of a future king. A king can have grand plans and a motivating philosophy. A village mayor, which is essentially what we're looking at having for the first 10 or so turns at least, needs to be focused on practicalities.

Valid point, somewhat. Unfortunately, the system as it stands, doesn't differentiate & doesn't allow us to simply 'hand-wave' needing to fill those positions without taking the penalties. Partially, this is because, historically speaking, just about every Nation, at least in Europe which is the model Paizo is taking, started as a city-state & every city-state started as a town.

Rufus would also agree with you that we need to focus upon practicalities. Which gets into my second post. Rufus/I have thought a great deal about what practicalities the community needs to focus on. My next 'in-game' post after inquiring what insights Bea was interested in, was going to be to start making some of those recommendations & why they were important.
I will counter however your statement that those 'practicalities' are 'more' important than knowing what the Ruler's vision for the community is from the beginning. Suppose an NPC were to ask that very same question, because every one of them are; as I implied before, if the Ruler or whoever else the NPC encounters doesn't have an answer, what makes the NPC think they are really going to have an answer to the next question, which is 'do you know what you are doing?' My questions/statements weren't the 'whole' of the conversation, they were simply the 'beginning'.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]
Vasily Lyesnayevich wrote:
And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost.

Except if that were the case, we would be building at Oleg's, not the Stag Fort. We are building a Fort/Castle, not a trading post. We are building a defensible center of power, and the people who come to us are going to see it as such, not 'a village, maybe a frontier farming community'.

Andoran

Rufus Fitzroi wrote:

Okay, I felt this needed a separate post because it is really a separate matter, but I wanted to address:

Bea wrote:
To clarify, I was assuming Rufus and Vasily were the ones who had provided the information in DM Carbide's post. Wasn't meaning to completely snuff you, just mostly ignoring the bit about Rakshasa.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really affect anything I posted.

To Rufus' observation; Bea proclaimed herself a Populist Ruler, then asked for advice or opinions & when she got some she didn't like, she proceeded to ignore the person giving them in favor of advice & opinions from someone she already knew and 'presumably' valued. She didn't even bother to ask for clarification of what the heck he was alluding to, she just 'swept it under the rug'. Also, the simple fact was that Rufus had a lot more to offer than the bare minimum presented in DM Carbide's post. He just didn't want to simply 'vomit' the suggestions forth if he wasn't certain Bea actually wanted them, which she established, by her reaction (or at least his interpretation of her reaction), she did not.

Dude – grow some thicker skin and quit jumping to conclusions so quickly. Remember that YOU'RE the newcomer here both in our PbP group and in-character. Things may not be exactly how you expected, and people might not act exactly how you thought or for the motives you expected. In this particular case, the only reason she “swept your advice under the rug” is because she happens to not care for Harrow-related superstitions. Nothing at all to do with you or her attitude towards you. I also tried to make it clear that aside from that, she listened to and agreed with your suggestions (through the DM's mouth).

Other than the letter of introduction, she has very little reason to trust or confide in you at this point, and acting defensive and offended is a great way to make sure that she doesn't in the future. I thought it rather generous of her to assume the best of you and welcome you into their planning meeting instead of asking that you wait until they were finished outside, like you'd normally do with a stranger.

Quote:

The Leader of a new nation, particularly one who sees themselves as a Populist as, by her own words Bea does, must have a vision or goal for why they should be leader. I also didn't see a reason for that. I'm not saying the leader should be 'my way or the highway', I'm saying when somebody asks Bea if she is the Leader of this community, she should be able to immediately say "Yes, *here* is why."

*here* being whatever her vision for that community is. If she doesn't have one beyond 'I am trying to make up for the mistakes of my past', then she needs to know or consider why/how founding & leading a new nation makes up for the mistakes of her past. She needs a reason why she should lead & it needs to be something better than 'because I provide a +X bonus to that particular kingdom modifier. Mechanical bonuses are comparatively easy to find, causes that NPC's are willing to die for, much less so.

Don't presume to know and understand Bea's motivations, even if you've gone back and read the entire campaign thus far (which I don't believe you have). You've attributed entirely false ideas to her based on a few small interactions. She's NOT a “populist” ruler, she's just got a much higher dose of humility than you're accustomed to dealing with. She has no aspirations for power and no clear end-game or goal for some future kingdom, but that doesn't mean she's not a good and effective ruler. She's the leader because through the many trials they've been through, she's the one that for whatever reason began to take charge and the rest of the group gradually grew to trust her and her decisions (despite plenty of philosophical disagreements, such as in Katya's case). This extended naturally once more people started to arrive and she simply took charge because she was used to it at this point and everyone expected her to. She was caught by surprise by your question and answered the way she did simply because nobody has ever asked her that before. It was never put to a vote, nobody came up and told her “hey, you're the ruler now, congratulations!” and based on her actions, everybody in town just simply knows that she's in charge.

Quote:

Rufus would also agree with you that we need to focus upon practicalities. Which gets into my second post. Rufus/I have thought a great deal about what practicalities the community needs to focus on. My next 'in-game' post after inquiring what insights Bea was interested in, was going to be to start making some of those recommendations & why they were important.

I will counter however your statement that those 'practicalities' are 'more' important than knowing what the Ruler's vision for the community is from the beginning. Suppose an NPC were to ask that very same question, because every one of them are; as I implied before, if the Ruler or whoever else the NPC encounters doesn't have an answer, what makes the NPC think they are really going to have an answer to the next question, which is 'do you know what you are doing?' My questions/statements weren't the 'whole' of the conversation, they were simply the 'beginning'.

Her particular leadership style also reflects on her answer though. She doesn't care to issue orders unilaterally, instead discussing it with her friends and confidants. To this point she hasn't had to worry about being “populist” or not because her ideas are mostly out of a genuine desire to help the community, and simply hasn't run into many disagreements. Obviously that may change in the near future. She then goes out and helps with the work to get it done, further gaining solidarity and support from those around her.

Anyone else in the party can correct me if I'm wrong here, but people follow Beatrix because they want to, not because anyone tells them they have to. Anyone else that's arrived in town not knowing what's going on simply had to ask anyone else in town once to find out who's in charge, and then upon seeing her in action quickly agree with the consensus.

Quote:
Valid point, somewhat. Unfortunately, the system as it stands, doesn't differentiate & doesn't allow us to simply 'hand-wave' needing to fill those positions without taking the penalties. Partially, this is because, historically speaking, just about every Nation, at least in Europe which is the model Paizo is taking, started as a city-state & every city-state started as a town.

Screw the system as it stands, and screw historically speaking. We're here to focus on role-playing and telling a good story, which the mechanics give us a good framework to do, not the other way around. If you're more interested in getting the most out of the crunchy bits or historical realism or your own preconceptions of what should or shouldn't happen in Golarian or the game, maybe this isn't the game for you. You seem to have a very narrowly defined idea of what a ruler has to be and act like, and how the kingdom building should occur. Instead of coming in and seeing if your preconceptions fit how the rest of the group has come to realize it, you've in only a few days shown yourself to be combative and arrogant, in essence telling us that “we're doing it wrong”.

Please try to find a way to ease back on your criticism and take some time to get the feel for the flow of things before trying to steer the whole thing in your own direction.


Male

All - I've been struggling for a while getting engaged into the thread and updating my character et al... so I've needed to make the difficult choice to back out of the campaign.

I corresponded with DM Carbide prior and he's happy to continue forging on with the five remaining, so with that I both thank and apologize as I back out the door bowing.


I'm sorry to see you go Edvard. I hope you had fun with us and its been a pleasure to RP with you. :)

Andoran

Likewise. Best of luck in your future games.


Weakly Godlike Entity

Most of the Paizo site is now blocked at work, so I haven't had a chance to look at the past few days' worth of posts. Walls o'text don't look so good when read on a phone. Will try to catch up tonight, but since I'm packing for a long weekend at NASFiC I may not have time. Sorry about this--didn't anticipate that the work filter would start catching the boards.


Male Human Oracle of Time (Seer) 4

Though I'm not blocked at work, and I've occasionally browsed, I've managed to exert the fullest extent of my will and not done any posting. Not once. I'm more proud of that than I should be, I think.

As for who should lead, Zlotii supports Bea. It's pretty much that simple. My PC want Bea to lead, so I, as a player, want Bea in the ruler slot for kingdom building. I'm not too concerned about the mechanics - they'll work out.

As for Zlotii's role, I picked councilor because that's the closest to the part I intend to play in-game. If someone else wants the gig, we can discuss it. I'd rather not be replaced by an NPC, though, because that wouldn't be any fun for me.

Also, Edvard - best of luck and all that.


M Human Ranger (Beastmaster) 4 (HP 33/33 | AC:17/18 with shield | T:13 | FF:14/16 | CMB: +6 | CMD:19 | Fort:+4 | Ref:+7 | Will:+4 | Init:+3 | Perc: +9/+11 in Forest terrain | Speed 30)
Rufus Fitzroi wrote:
Vasily Lyesnayevich wrote:
And honestly, right now we're not building a new kingdom. I mean, we as players are. But we as characters are building a village, maybe a frontier farming community, and maybe, if we're lucky, some sort of trading outpost.
Except if that were the case, we would be building at Oleg's, not the Stag Fort. We are building a Fort/Castle, not a trading post. We are building a defensible center of power, and the people who come to us are going to see it as such, not 'a village, maybe a frontier farming community'.

From an RP perspective, not building at Oleg's is abiding by the man's and his neighbors' wish for privacy. And Oleg's Trading Post has wooden walls because it's built in an old abandoned fort itself. We're doing pretty much the same thing Oleg already did, just in a more solidly built stronghold.

I also disagree that any NPCs who got sent out to the frontier are looking for a guiding philosophy for the structure of their future country more than they're looking for a place to have their own land, free from entanglements with the Brevic Houses or the Swordlords. I'm imagining them as not too different from the characters in Little House on the Prairie.

Our sponsors might want a guiding philosophy, and probably want it to be in line with their own, but I doubt a farmer is looking for anything more from the ruler of a flyspeck little not-even-technically-a-town than some sort of rule of law and, if they're lucky, assistance with a barn raising or a difficult birth.

I do agree that in the future, the ruler of this kingdom should be able to espouse some guiding principles as to how they see the growth of their kingdom and the shape in which they would like to develop its laws and practices. But that's so they can talk intelligently with other rulers, nobles, rich merchants, and the like. I just don't see that being something our faceless, nameless builders and farmers would care about when there's houses to be built and crops to be planted.


Male Human Oracle of Time (Seer) 4

I agree with the bastard.


Male Human (Varisian) Bard 2/Cavalier (Standard Bearer) 2 [ HP: 29/29 | AC: 15 T: 12 FF: 14 | F: +4 R: +4 W: +3 | Init: +1 Perc: +3 | Effects: none]

I have considered the content of my posts over the past several days and wish to request that GM Carbide remove my avatars from the active characters roster.
My behavior would have been wildly inappropriate for an infant. For an adult in full control of my faculties, it was even more so, not to mention disruptive of everyone's enjoyment of the game. I apologize.
Thank you for the invitation, I hope you continue to enjoy your game.


Are we going to try to move forward with the kingdom building, or the role-playing?


Female Human Paladin 4

I think we could probably move forward with the first kingdom building phase, unless anyone else had something they wanted to address IC.


Female Human Paladin 4

I'm going to go ahead and start filling out a few more of the positions on Katya's Sheet based on my list above, giving preference for PCs and previous PCs. If I filled in something that you wanted to play, please just change it, you don't have to ask me for permission.

Question concerning the High Priest position: should we give it to Sabrina or Jhod Kavken? Sabrina was a previous PC instead of just an NPC and certainly the more...interesting of the two choices, but never had much in the way of social graces and might be more difficult for Carbide to DMPC. Jhod would be the "safe" choice but again, not nearly as interesting.

My personal preference goes to Sabrina, just because she was such an interesting character and I'd like to have the opportunity to have more interaction with her. Any other thoughts?

Andoran

Also, with Edvard and Rufus dropping, that leaves us down to four players. Of the four of us, I think we are strongly motivated to keep this going at this point, and it's a pretty good mesh of classes (arcane, divine, melee, ranged/skill) so we're not particularly missing out on anything if we press forward with just the four of us.

We didn't get a super strong response last time we opened up for submissions, but there was one other players that I thought had a strong character concept and background that I wouldn't mind reaching out to to see if he's still interested. Any other thoughts on our current party size?

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