What I want to discuss here is the role of obscure language in the Pathfinder RPG. Mods feel free to move this out of the RPGSS forum if you think it should go elsewhere.
Firstly, I want to thank the judges for being so open with their feedback.
Secondly, while this thread is in response to the role of obscure names in this year's RPGSS, I know that my item failed due to pricing issues and formatting issues.
Thirdly, I think that the judges did count down my item due to the obscurity of the word gyst. I think they were right to do so for the competition.
Gyst is an archaic term for yeast that I learned from working in a brewery, and later found in one of my girlfriend's baking books when researching names for my item. It is archaic, but not Old English, as far as I understand. Since my item was basically magical brewer's yeast, I felt that the word was perfect.
In a competition, I am working to communicate with a small number of people who almost certainly would have to look that up. Odds are, even if they looked it up, they would not find it. That is why I deserved to get disqualified, and I'm 100% okay with that.
But I think these kinds of terms belong in the game, if not the competition. If I hadn't been subjected to that moment of discomfort in my own ignorance of language, then D&D would never have taught me so much. Phylactery, brazier, unguent, periapt, mattock... these are all words that I might never have come to know if they hadn't been items. I feel like earlier editions had a higher incidence of obscure language; although that may be my age at the time of reading them.
I have noticed a tendency toward straight-forward naming conventions in the game recently, and I think that's largely a positive thing. But at times, when I see something like the spell name nap stack, I yearn for the somewhat-condescending vocabulary of yore. (With apologies to the person who named that spell, it really disappointed me.) I've also been reading some of the REH Conan stories again, and I'm struck with the sense that we are losing language, not just in this hobby but as a culture in general.
Despite my above example, Paizo quite plainly recognizes the value I'm claiming here. The GMG has that page of obscure terms! So I like to think that although it is unwise to use those terms in the competition, the game still embraces them.
I recognize that in a judged competition, using obscure language is a big risk that you may not be understood by the judges. But I also worry that, over time, we might lose the heritage of a game which is at heart about descriptive language.
It is all too easy to cross the line into obscurity for obscurity's sake, and that's certainly something the judges have seen this year. Maybe my item was an instance of that. But I still relish the use of obscure language in my game products, when done well. When someone sends me to my dictionary app and I learn a new word from it, I grow as a person and as a writer.
I hope that this doesn't sound like me whining about my rejected entry (probably does)... please take me at my word that I owe a great debt to this hobby when it comes to my own language, and that means a lot more to me than the competition.
Congratulations to the top 32, and to the judges on a job well done!
I don't have a problem with it, but if you end up out-nerding the nerd GMs, you may be going a little too far.
Case in point, "irides" from a previous competition... :)
I just want to add that playing RPGs has expanded my vocabulary in exactly the same way (quite probably with most of the same words), and I think that's something worth holding on to.
I actually rebought the original AD&D rulebooks recently, just as mementoes. A quick flick through the DMG brings up words like castellan, hebephrenia, machicolation, pilaster, simian thalamus, sapper, limner, linkboy... They may not be in use these days, but I miss them in my fantasy game.
I can't find it on google , at least not with that spelling.
I don't have a problem with it, but if you end up out-nerding the nerd GMs, you may be going a little too far.
Case in point, "irides" from a previous competition... :)
It bears repeating: I think the judges made the right call.
There's such a thing as too obscure, or reckless inclusion of obscurity. Attempted obscurity can also backfire: the toccada and fugue of the danse macabre from Ultimate Magic must have sounded like a string of obscure musical terms to whoever penned it. It does not sit well with me at all (once again, my apologies to the namer.)
Communicating with the judges is key in the competition, and so obscure language is a risk. But I would hate to see that carry over to discouraging obscure language in the game's general design. I think many players feel the same.
I can't find it on google , at least not with that spelling.
Hence my validation of the judgement. But... it really isn't about me, or my item. This is an extension of a conversation that started before Round 1's results. Leaving gyst aside for the moment, how do you feel about obscure language in the game BNW?
The obscure vocabulary is one of the things I like about Kevin Andrew Murphy's Pathfinder Tales (and Pathfinder Journal) contributions.
Hence my validation of the judgement. But... it really isn't about me, or my item. This is an extension of a conversation that started before Round 1's results. Leaving gyst aside for the moment, how do you feel about obscure language in the game BNW?
I like it. But I also like chocolate. I don't like bakers chocholate with dark chocholate with chocholate syrup. Its TOO MUCH chocholate.
Its a matter of HOW obscure the language is. If i need to use a dictionary then HEY! I learned a new word. (moduel obsession with verdigris comes to mind) If GOOGLE can't find it then its probably too obscure.
mmm chocholate.
Add me to those who learned much of my vocabulary from gaming.
Of course, a lot of it didn't come with pronunciation guides, so I remember pronouncing citadel as ki-TAH-del for a good, long time (and maybe even arguing about it with a friend who was actually saying it correctly!); and brazier as brassiere.
I like it. But I also like chocolate. I don't like bakers chocholate with dark chocholate with chocholate syrup. Its TOO MUCH chocholate.
Agreed.
Its a matter of HOW obscure the language is. If i need to use a dictionary then HEY! I learned a new word. (moduel obsession with verdigris comes to mind) If GOOGLE can't find it then its probably too obscure.
You're absolutely right, there. I think there can be exceptions, but they might require a more deft writer than myself.
Irides is the plural of iris, according to dictionary.com
Irises is also valid. I learnt something new!
Irides is the plural of iris, according to dictionary.com
Irises is also valid. I learnt something new!
Just like octopodes and cyclopes.
Remember, though, that in all cases (I think) the "es" is pronounced "ease".
For myself, I love languages. English, German, Russian, dead, ancient, medieval, modern - it doesn't matter. I look stuff up like the Akkadian alphabet just for fun. (Yes, I'm strange. ;))
That said, language's primary purpose is to convey ideas. If your word choice gets in the way of your idea, language has lost its purpose and you have lost an opportunity to communicate. Something else to consider. Languages are not static; they are living entities in their own right. Spelling, words, grammar, etc change based on the movement and changing priorities of the language's speakers. Encountering a new language or idea changes a language.
From a business perspective, using more 'common' or less 'obscure' words in their products is a win for Paizo, or any company for that matter. They have ideas to communicate, and the language forms they choose impacts how many people actually understand what's being communicated. At the same time, I doubt Paizo or anyone else is going to move to text messaging "speech" patterns any time soon. ;)
That said, language's primary purpose is to convey ideas.
That's certainly true, but there are words which can't be summarised easily or simply with more common words, karma for instance, or certain medical terms.
There's also a difference between using the written word and discussing something in person. On a messageboard there's no chance of the recipient being embarrassed because they don't understand something; they can just look it up. In person, unless you're very comfortable in each others presence (or don't care what they think) its much harder to handle that situation. I have an uncle who used an unusual word in a board-meeting once and was met with embarrassed silence (his words).
I wouldn't want a co-worker continually using terms I wasn't familiar with because it would slow me down asking what he was talking about. But the AD&D DMG just makes me want to read it more.
That said, language's primary purpose is to convey ideas.That's certainly true, but there are words which can't be summarised easily or simply with more common words, karma for instance, or certain medical terms.
True. These are often jargon, words borrowed from other languages, or older/antiquated/unused words from a previous form of the current language.
To use your examples, karma has made it into the "common" lexicon after spending millenia in another language, Sanskrit, I believe. Word borrowing is a common way of integrating foreign ideas into any given language. Also, medical terms are medical jargon first and foremost - the shorthand that medical professionals use to convey ideas. Also, they are based on a now-dead language (Latin) and ancient Greek. The words we love from fantasy and older editions of the game, such as castellan, ballista, etc are antiquated and no longer in use because the modern world has no need for them any more.
I'm not bashing using these terms. I'm simply saying care must be taken that you don't "out-nerd the nerds." (To paraphrase SKR above.)
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To use your examples, karma has made it into the "common" lexicon after spending millenia in another language, Sanskrit, I believe. Word borrowing is a common way of integrating foreign ideas into any given language
Some languages borrow from other languages. English chases other languages down back allies to snag their words.
I'm simply saying care must be taken that you don't "out-nerd the nerds." (To paraphrase SKR above.)
Yeah, that makes me nervous. I've had to rename my round 2 entry as Google searches brought up some possible issues with my first half a dozen ideas. I'm heading towards nerdland right now in order to guarantee uniqueness and I don't know where the cliff edge is... :-)
I'm heading towards nerdland right now in order to guarantee uniqueness and I don't know where the cliff edge is... :-)
Speaking from experience, and please note it hasn't always worked out for me, sometimes the best you can do is take a calculated risk. :) I look forward to seeing your organization for Round 2. :D
I'd like to add to this discussion. I changed the name of my item because I thought it was too obscure...
How many know the word Orchestrina?
I'd like to add to this discussion. I changed the name of my item because I thought it was too obscure...
How many know the word Orchestrina?
I hadn't, but little orcehstra is easy enough to figure out from the word, especially if you start talking about the item's various musical instruments.
Gyst, irides, orchestrina -- these are all perfectly cromulent words if you ask me.
In defense of obscure language, we do lose a lot when we can no longer figure out what our ancestors were talking about. Particularly when we live in such unenlightened times as ours, when things only have meaning if they're written in twitterspeak.
In defense of the evolution of language, "gyst" is probably pronounced the same as or similar to "yeast." You're probably looking at a spelling change more than anything else.
Gyst, irides, orchestrina -- these are all perfectly cromulent words if you ask me.
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I delight in the archaisms and abstruse words that permeate gaming literature :D That said, I think that the general rules of thumb for using obscure language in products should follow something along these lines:
- In narrative sections, spritzing in words can add excitement to a reading for linguaphiles! Don't overdo it, but where logical feel free to use a word that is extraordinary. I think adjectives should be treated reservedly, but nouns can occur more readily in texts such as these.
- When naming items I encourage liberal use of obscurities, while for feats and spells I would advise an approach more dependent upon wordplay than exotic word choice. My reasoning behind this is fairly straightforward. Feats and Spells should communicate quickly to a person how they may be useful to a character, they appear in lists and people often pick out of the list itself before going to the entry (in my experience). Items, on the other hand, are acquired through a process that's more like window shopping if you aren't trying to whip a character up in a hurry: you go to the back of the book, flip through the pages and look for things that catch your eye. As unusual words accomplish that, I think it's okay to use them in item names with more regularity.
- Rule text, text defining effects or elucidating the function of mechanics for the game should rarely if ever incorporate a word that requires you to refer to a dictionary. Wording for these should be as efficient, accessible and clear as possible.
I feel like these pretty much cover the uses of obscure language in fantasy roleplaying. Other roleplaying universes could require different rules depending on the type of feel they want to evince, but for an rpg like Pathfinder I think the above works well.
Anyway, this has been a longer post than I meant to make and I need to get to bed. Good topic Evil Lincoln! Definitely an interesting one, lol. Cheers!
I absolutely love obscure language. It really puts me in the mood. My favorite is "magic jar".
I do fret over my naming choices when I submit my items, but I just can't resist. My first two items were called the Mortal Receiver and Polytoggery. The first is an alchemical device that distills your living essence, and the second is a set of clothing that can become any other set of clothing.
But I just had to explain what they were to you so...aaarrgghh!
Just commiserating. I'm done now.
I too enjoy seeing less commonly language appearing in RPGs. For me it adds to the roleplaying experience, an unusual word used descriptively can really add to the flavor and fantasy of the game.
Here's an example from last year's competition that I thought worked well.
The pouch keeps up to 8 goodberries fresh and magically efficacious for an indefinite amount of time.
Great use of the word, even if it's in rules text, because the meaning can easily be inferred from the surrounding text. Adding a little zazz like this in RPG Superstar can help you stand out from the crowd.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka burrahobbit
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Worth remembering that D&D has a long history of dredging up obscurities, at least relatively speaking. I was certainly the only kid in my middle school who had ever used the words 'orrery,' 'capon,' or 'phlogiston.' Shoot, how many non-gamers have 'melee' or even 'dexterity' in their active vocabularies?
I really like arcane vocabulary, and am pleased when I run across a word I didn't know. But if a word keeps your reader from understanding you, there's a danger said reader will be annoyed or perplexed rather than rushing excitedly to the OED.
My RPG Superstar entry was not a winner for several reasons. But I imagine it didn't help that I played on two different meanings of the word 'skive,' not in itself a high-frequency word, and I readily admit that, if I were a judge, I would not be thrilled about having to reach for a dictionary just to have an idea of what an item might be.
*The Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals, innocently mispronounced, also caused some embarrassment in those tender days.
Surely with all the young kiddies running around with their Harry Potter wands shouting Experiamus (or whatever it is) there's a market for a book of wizardly and obscure words? How about a gamer's dictionary?
How can I have forgotten to mention phlogiston!? Thanks burrahobbit.
This hobby of ours gave us the word dweomer.
I like Luciferous Logolepsy for fancifully obscure words. A random click is good for a laugh, and pulled up "kakidrosis" (secretion of malodorous perspiration).
Awesome!
Kakidrosian has to be a new armor magical quality. My half-orc paladin wears a +1 fortification kakidrosian breastplate. Squee!
toccada and fugue of the danse macabre*twitches*
The real shame there is that bardic masterpieces are a phenomenally great mechanic, with much-needed appeal to real musicians. And that name... that name... is just not "superstar."
I hate to admit that I enough of a nerd AND music snob that it really ruined my day. :(
toccada and fugue of the danse macabre*twitches*The real shame there is that bardic masterpieces are a phenomenally great mechanic, with much-needed appeal to real musicians. And that name... that name... is just not "superstar."
I hate to admit that I enough of a nerd AND music snob that it really ruined my day. :(
Of course, this is also the hobby that gave us "illusionary."
What is your problem, yo?toccada and fugue of the danse macabre*twitches*The real shame there is that bardic masterpieces are a phenomenally great mechanic, with much-needed appeal to real musicians. And that name... that name... is just not "superstar."
I hate to admit that I enough of a nerd AND music snob that it really ruined my day. :(
Much respect Sean, but:
1) A toccata's not a dance, neither is a fugue. It makes no sense.
2) Combining the title of an extremely well-known work by Bach with the the title of an extremely well-known work by Saint-Saëns is a little like writing a novel in which the main character's rockband has a hit called Stairway to Freebird. Either one of thses used alone would have been a little easter-egg for the music snobs. Together, they're a little like "Song of the Ephemeral Phlebotomist" if you catch my meaning.
I don't think it makes the mechanics of that masterpiece bad. As I said, I really, really love those mechanics. But as far as a title... I'm with Celestial Healer.
It also exacerbates a long-standing problem with music and mechanics that I've ranted about at length before... so I *am* blowing it out of proportion.
I have a lot of sympathy for people who screw up the name right now... but I also know that they gotta be told so they don't make the same mistake twice.
So, pretending I'm judge for a second:
*Rejected! On name alone.
What is your problem, yo?toccada and fugue of the danse macabre*twitches*The real shame there is that bardic masterpieces are a phenomenally great mechanic, with much-needed appeal to real musicians. And that name... that name... is just not "superstar."
I hate to admit that I enough of a nerd AND music snob that it really ruined my day. :(
Much respect Sean, but:
1) A toccata's not a dance, neither is a fugue. It makes no sense.
2) Combining the title of an extremely well-known work by Bach with the the title of an extremely well-known work by Saint-Saëns is a little like writing a novel in which the main character's rockband has a hit called Stairway to Freebird. Either one of thses used alone would have been a little easter-egg for the music snobs. Together, they're a little like "Song of the Ephemeral Phlebotomist" if you catch my meaning.
I don't think it makes the mechanics of that masterpiece bad. As I said, I really, really love those mechanics. But as far as a title... I'm with Celestial Healer.
It also exacerbates a long-standing problem with music and mechanics that I've ranted about at length before... so I *am* blowing it out of proportion.
I have a lot of sympathy for people who screw up the name right now... but I also know that they gotta be told so they don't make the same mistake twice.
So, pretending I'm judge for a second:
*Rejected! On name alone.
1) But, but, it's *macabre*. What's more grim or ghastly than dancing to that which cannot be danced to?
2) FREEEEBIIIRD!!! (ow, stop punching me)
2) Combining the title of an extremely well-known work by Bach with the the title of an extremely well-known work by Saint-Saëns is a little like writing a novel in which the main character's rockband has a hit called Stairway to Freebird.
Whatever you do, don't google the term "slash fiction." :)
Fine. You've made me resume my attempts to write a whole bunch of awesome bardic masterpieces. I hope you're happy, Sean!