Druid / Monk Character concept

So we're not far into a campaign, and I'm playing a Druid 6/Monk 2.
Feral combat training and master of many styles makes it a good time.

I've also got an animal companion with me, specifically its a bear.

But I had an idea and I need to know if its worth it or not.

In almost all combat scenarios, I'm gonna be wildshaped and can only do melee. I need a ranged person helping me out.

Is it worth casting Permanent Anthropomorphic Animal on my bear, and giving him Mounted Combat and proficiency in a ranged weapon?
Coz bears don't really have any abilities that depend on their claws, so its not like it would be losing things like pounce and rake. Just 2 natural attacks.

You can only do melee? What about your Spells? How important is it that you have a Ranged Ability? What about the rest of your party's Ranged capability?

Sorry, should have specified. I meant ranged weapons. I do have spells, yes, but they don't always work. I have a bow that I use when not wildshaped, but thats kinda it.
We have 2 other ranged players in the party but they aren't always there.

This is more about if the bear would be better being a warebear haha

Bear don't have a very good dex for ranged attack so is a no from my part

Yeah fair call!
Just thought I'd look into it.

Aesthetically, it would have looked sick for my druid to wildshape and have a Werebear ride a dire Tiger into a fight

I need a ranged person helping me out.

Why? Come next Druid level, you can cast Air Walk, at that point, flying or normally unreachable enemies cease to be a problem. If one of your styles is Dragon Style, you should be able to charge most opponents even now.

The problem with your (rather cool) idea is that archery takes a lot of feats, and since Animal Companions a) lack proficiency) and b) have fewer feats than a PC because of the slower HD progression, there just won't be enough feats to make it worth it.

Oh yeah true!
And yeah, I'm a Master of Many Styles. So I've currently got Dragon and Boar style.

The ranged idea won't work, so its all good! Thought it was worth the ask tho.

Probs no sense in giving the bear a big sword or something if he's already got two claws.

Also question about the monk's unnarmed damage.
As as monk levels up, his damage scales up.
With feral combat training on claws, would the monk class feature scale up the damage on the claws?

Also question about the monk's unnarmed damage.

As as monk levels up, his damage scales up.
With feral combat training on claws, would the monk class feature scale up the damage on the claws?

Nope. It used to. Now it doesn't.

To increase the Base Damage on a Druidzilla's Natural Attacks, I take levels in Warpriest. You do your Sacred Weapon Damage instead of your regular Damage, and that does scale up with the Warpriest's Size and Level.

Take the Shaping Focus Feat, so your nondruid levels count as Druid levels for the purpose of Wildshaping, at least 4 levels worth, which is enough to polymorph into Huge Animals, as big as you can get.

For this kind of character--it probably won't work for yours--a couple of levels in Barbarian might be in order. That Strength Bonus applies to all your Natural Attacks, and Rage Powers can give you even more Natural Attacks, say if you want to turn into a Triceratops that also has Claws and a Bite, or a Megaraptor that also has a Gore Attack.

What is your character's race? What are your favorite shapes to Wild out in?

No. The original wording of the feat did include "effects that augment an unarmed strike", which did give the option to use the unarmed damage instead of the normal damage, but that part was removed in the second printing of Ultimate Combat. The current wording only applies the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

AnUnlovedLobster wrote:

I need a ranged person helping me out.

Why? Come next Druid level, you can cast Air Walk, at that point, flying or normally unreachable enemies cease to be a problem. If one of your styles is Dragon Style, you should be able to charge most opponents even now.

The problem with your (rather cool) idea is that archery takes a lot of feats, and since Animal Companions a) lack proficiency) and b) have fewer feats than a PC because of the slower HD progression, there just won't be enough feats to make it worth it.

I'm forced to ask the same question: why do you want to shoot arrows while in your Wild Shape? You, sir, are a Druidzilla. If your party is in Melee, you belong in Melee. Let them keep their fancy-schmancy, high-tech, mumbo-jumbo shooting toys. You are the Lorax, and you are past the f!#$ing point of conversation! Get primitive!

I guess a good way to go if you really want Ranged Capability while in Wild Shape is to take the Leadership Feat, and make sure your Cohort shoots arrows (or carries a gun, or whatever). You'll be an animal with a Human Companion! Let him ride you like Jonny Quest riding a Pterodactyl or He-Man riding Battlecat.

Nah I've ditched the ranged idea at this point haha.

I've already got shaping focus so I'm covered on that front.

In terms of running my druidzilla I've basically got it covered at this point. Thanks guys!!!

Only thing I'm tossing up now is if I cast permanent Anthropomorphic Animal on my bear and give him a Butchering Axe. Damage wise, he'd deal more. A max of 34 at level 8 instead of max damage of 29.
And bears don't have rake or pounce so he wouldn't really have any special abilities to lose. I'm just not 100% sure if he'd be better off as a regular bear, or a werebear.

No. The original wording of the feat did include "effects that augment an unarmed strike", which did give the option to use the unarmed damage instead of the normal damage, but that part was removed in the second printing of Ultimate Combat. The current wording only applies the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

So am I right in assuming that a lot of things that ki lets you do won't apply to natural attacks either?

Derklord wrote:

No. The original wording of the feat did include "effects that augment an unarmed strike", which did give the option to use the unarmed damage instead of the normal damage, but that part was removed in the second printing of Ultimate Combat. The current wording only applies the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

So am I right in assuming that a lot of things that ki lets you do won't apply to natural attacks either?

By RAW, probably not. But I'd talk to your GM about it. It feels in flavor with the particular build you're playing and if I were the GM I'd allow it.

I'm currently playing a Druid 7 (Lion Shaman)/Monk 1 (Sohei) .. I'll probably take another level of the monk soon. Not sure if I'll go for 4 monk or not, I may take another 2 levels in a different class if I find an appropriate one. I have Feral Combat Training and Shaping Focus among the feats I have. It's a lot of fun to charge, pounce and (when the rolls are good or the monsters ACs are low enough) do over 200 points of damage in a round. But I also have 2 different flavors of Skalds in my group right now ;)

So am I right in assuming that a lot of things that ki lets you do won't apply to natural attacks either?

Yes, you are. Feral Combat Training only works with feats, period. No class features.

AnUnlovedLobster wrote:

So am I right in assuming that a lot of things that ki lets you do won't apply to natural attacks either?

Yes, you are. Feral Combat Training only works with feats, period. No class features.

Ah oh well

What, did they get mad about the cave druid thing? It's still quite strong.

Why would a Cave Druid ever use unarmed strike damage instead of the 7d8?

Nah I've ditched the ranged idea at this point haha.

I've already got shaping focus so I'm covered on that front.

In terms of running my druidzilla I've basically got it covered at this point. Thanks guys!!!

Only thing I'm tossing up now is if I cast permanent Anthropomorphic Animal on my bear and give him a Butchering Axe. Damage wise, he'd deal more. A max of 34 at level 8 instead of max damage of 29.
And bears don't have rake or pounce so he wouldn't really have any special abilities to lose. I'm just not 100% sure if he'd be better off as a regular bear, or a werebear.

Anthropomorphic Animal doesn't give the bear proficiency with the axe, or any other weapon. So the bear would be at -4 to hit with it. Sounds like a bad idea.

You might consider trading your bear for a different animal companion. One that can ride you so they can benefit from your pounce ability, or that can pounce themselves.

Why would a Cave Druid ever use unarmed strike damage instead of the 7d8?

Oh, ha, I thought they removed all non-feat benefits, but they still allow flurry of blows. So why did they change it at all if they're okay with the cave druid/monk's ridonkulous slam dancing?

AnUnlovedLobster wrote:

Nah I've ditched the ranged idea at this point haha.

I've already got shaping focus so I'm covered on that front.

In terms of running my druidzilla I've basically got it covered at this point. Thanks guys!!!

Only thing I'm tossing up now is if I cast permanent Anthropomorphic Animal on my bear and give him a Butchering Axe. Damage wise, he'd deal more. A max of 34 at level 8 instead of max damage of 29.
And bears don't have rake or pounce so he wouldn't really have any special abilities to lose. I'm just not 100% sure if he'd be better off as a regular bear, or a werebear.

Anthropomorphic Animal doesn't give the bear proficiency with the axe, or any other weapon. So the bear would be at -4 to hit with it. Sounds like a bad idea.

You might consider trading your bear for a different animal companion. One that can ride you so they can benefit from your pounce ability, or that can pounce themselves.

I'm totally aware of that. It would take a feat to be proficient in using the axe, that's totally fine. I'm honestly ok with burning a feat for that.

And character wise, it doesn't make sense for me to just ditch the bear. My character isn't about ditching the bear for something else just coz he can.

I'm just not 100% sure if there are other ways to up its damage output without spending more money and burning more feats (at least 2 to just get feral combat training).

I'm just not 100% sure if there are other ways to up its damage output without spending more money and burning more feats (at least 2 to just get feral combat training).

Dip into Mammoth Rider and trade in your bear for an Arsinotherium.

AnUnlovedLobster wrote:

I'm just not 100% sure if there are other ways to up its damage output without spending more money and burning more feats (at least 2 to just get feral combat training).

Dip into Mammoth Rider and trade in your bear for an Arsinotherium.

Legit just said my character aint about ditching his bear for something else that might be better.

It's not about getting a better companion. Its about what ways can I make the bear better.

And if feral combat training doesn't benefit from the unnarmed strike, is it worth putting more levels into monk or druid?
Currently Druid 6, Master of Many Styles 2

And if feral combat training doesn't benefit from the unnarmed strike, is it worth putting more levels into monk or druid?

It kinda depends on what you want, but to put it bluntly, even the second level into MoMS is kinda wasted. Advancing your spellcasting will beat out anything when it comes to objectively evaluating the character. You might prefer to focus more on something different (e.g. dipping into Bloodrager or Barbarian to improve the combat prowess), but full casting is by far the strongest class feature in the game, period.

Oh, ha, I thought they removed all non-feat benefits, but they still allow flurry of blows. So why did they change it at all if they're okay with the cave druid/monk's ridonkulous slam dancing?

Yeah sorry, when I said "Feral Combat Training only works with feats, period", I was referring to the OP's character, who can't have FCT's special section apply to them.

As great as spells are, I'm more about wildshaping and doing super cool melee stuff.
Dire Tiger with Dragon and Boar style on its claws is nuts.

I wanna focus more on the melee aspect of things. Using stuff from MoMS (or a another class if necessary) to make wildshape even better.

The other thing is optimizing my bear. To me, its looking like using Anthropomorphic Animal and burning a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency so he can use a Butchering Axe seems the way to go. It ups his max damage up 5 points.
And as a bear, he has no special abilities that are dependant on his claws.
I just need a second opinion on if this is the way to go.

I don't want a new companion, I just want to make the bear better.

And as cool as Mammoth Rider sounds, its more dependant on riding the bear. Something I'm not gonna be able to do while wildshaped.

Erm,

Maybe some Teamwork Feats for you and your Bear?

What Race is your Druid?

Outflank is the classic teamwork feat for this build more accuracy is a huge boon to druids that have lower accuracy than other melee types at higher levels.

In place of Anthropomorphic Animal. You could also opt for a grizzly bear companion which has some free grab attempts, this will allow your PC to hit more frequently.

As great as spells are, I'm more about wildshaping and doing super cool melee stuff.

Question here: Do you not count stuff like walking through the air to attack someone on higher ground or flying or otherwise unreachable as "cool stuff"? More Druid levels is not about using spells in combat, in case that's what you were thinking. As a different example, three more levels in Druid grant you access to Animal Growth, which is pretty cool to buff your bear.

I wanna focus more on the melee aspect of things. Using stuff from MoMS (or a another class if necessary) to make wildshape even better.

Well, the 'normal' improvement would be to add more numeric bonuses and more natural attacks. Basically, the opposite of "cool stuff".

I'm still waiting for information on your character (ability scores, feats, etc.) and what material is allowed.

I don't want a new companion, I just want to make the bear better.

One of the choices for a Mammoth Rider is a Dire Polar Bear. How would you feel about trading your bear in for another bear?

This bear is roomy, seats 4, gets great gas mileage on the highway, and this bear? My dear fellow, this bear had only 1 owner, a little old lady with a mechanic grandson who only drove to church on Sundays...

The big issue is, I'm not prepared to change my bear for something else.
Character wise, it just doesn't make sense. They've already been through so much together, he's not about to ditch it for something else.

Again, its not about getting a different companion. Its about making the one I have as good as I can get it. And damage wise (and also aesthetically it would just look freakin cool) Anthropomorphic Animal with a butchering axe seems the way to go.
Unless I'm missing something?

The big issue is, I'm not prepared to change my bear for something else.

Character wise, it just doesn't make sense. They've already been through so much together, he's not about to ditch it for something else.

Again, its not about getting a different companion. Its about making the one I have as good as I can get it. And damage wise (and also aesthetically it would just look freakin cool) Anthropomorphic Animal with a butchering axe seems the way to go.
Unless I'm missing something?

You don't have to change your Animal Companion to enjoy Mammoth Rider:

The size of a mammoth rider’s steed (see below) increases to Huge. The creature takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls and to AC, and a -2 penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1); its base damage increases by one size category; and its reach increases to 10 feet. It also gains a +2 size bonus to its Strength and Constitution. At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the Strength bonus increases by an additional 2; the bonus to Constitution increases by an additional 2 at 5th and again at 9th level.

You have the option of just letting your Bear get bigger.

Also, what is your character's Race?

What are your favorite Animals to Polymorph into?

If you don't tell us what your character and pet look like right now, we can not help you.

Legit already said what my pet is...a bear. Specifically a black bear.

And my character is an elf. He's a real cool dude. He's seen some s*++.

Fav animals tho? I'm loving Dire Tiger. Getting some sweet damage output off that thing. Gonna have feral combat training on claws soon so it'll work super well with the styles I have.

Also isn't Mammoth Rider pretty dependant on riding the companion? Like a lot of bonuses and abilites are only given while mounted?

Also isn't Mammoth Rider pretty dependant on riding the companion? Like a lot of bonuses and abilites are only given while mounted?

I wouldn't say so. There are some things like the ability to replace your mount with one of the listed megafauna: you don't want to do that, cool. At level 3 or so, they can jump on their mounts quickly even though a Mammoth Rider's Mount would normally be too big.

But with 1 level in Mammoth Rider, your Bear grows a Size to Huge (so do its Natural Attacks); it's ST and Con go up +2 (Dex goes down by 2, and its Attack bonus goes down by 1, offset by the ST going up by 2), and your levels in Mammoth Rider stack with your Druid Levels with respect to your Animal's awesomeness. Your character gets a d12 Hit Die, 4 +Int Skills, a +1 to your Fort Save, Wild Empathy, and BAB. More levels -> more bonuses. You will also be able to use Intimidate instead of Diplomacy for your Wild Empathy, and since you took Boar Style, your Intimidate Bonus is probably pretty high.

my character is an elf

Ah. I was thinking that if your character were a Half Orc, you could take like Amplified Rage, and get a +6 Strength instead of a +4.

Dipping into Barbarian is an interesting option: all your Natural Attacks would enjoy a +2 Attack and Damage from your Strength. you could take Ferocious Beast, and your Bear would Rage along with you. Take Lesser Fiend Totem for yourself, and you can get a Gore Attack. Take Greater Ferocious Beast, and your Bear gets that Gore Attack. The problem with a Barbarian Dip is that you will have to become nonlawful, and that means no more advancing as a Monk. But it might be worth it.

There are ways around this alignment problem. I recall there is some kind of Trait you can take that will let you be a Lawful Barbarian or something.

If you never take another level in Monk, though, you can still take the rest of your Feats on your Boar and Dragon Feat Trees. Dragon Ferocity lets you take Elemental Fist. You get that bonus Bleed Damage and that Boar Style Rending thing. You get that Strength bump to your Damage, and that combined with your Barbarian Strength Bump can be pretty awesome. So it might be the case that you have already taken all the levels in MOMS Monk that you need to.

Dragon Style gives you an advantage to Charging. If you take Merciless Rush, you get a Free Bull Rush with your Charge. If you take Greater Bull Rush, your Bear gets an Attack of Opportunity. If you and your Bear take Paired Opportunist, you get one, too. If you take Broken Wing Gambit, whenever either of you are attacked, both of you get Attacks of Opportunity. There are other charging Feats you could take such as Greater Overrun and Wheeling Charge and others.

Take a level in Cavalier, and your Bear (since it could theoretically ride it if you wanted to) gains a level as if you took a level in Druid. You gain a Bonus Teamwork Feat and the Tactician Class Ability that lets you share that Feat with all your allies.

Take levels in Hunter, and those levels also stack with your Druid levels for your Animal Companion, and you get to share Teamwork Feats.

I'm not proposing a specific build for you: I've given you more options than you can exercise for a single character. I hope this helps.

Oh ok!
I'll have to think about it tho. Coz if ends up being huge, I can only take it so many places. Caves tend to happen sometimes haha.
And I'll have a chat to my GM about keeping the same bear but letting it become Dire. He might allow it?

I got a bit of time to decide on taking Mammoth Rider anyway. My BAB is still one point off. I'll have it by CL9 but it just means that CL10 would be Mammoth Rider if I decided to take it.

The only thing is tho, if I'm wildshaping a lot, I probably won't be mounting it too much.

I'm probably not gonna bother with Hunter or Cavalier. Too many classes might be more of a hinderance. I'm happy to dip into a third, but a fourth might cause more problems.

Thanks for the tips tho!
Defs looking like more levels in Monk aren't really worth it. Especially if I can't use most of the features while Wildshaped anyway.

Would you happen to know what trait allowed lawful Barbarians?

Also weird but also kinda cool idea:

Take a level in Mammoth Rider. Get a huge dire bear. Cast anthropomorphic animal on it. Build it a huge butchering axe. Max damage of 48 before bonuses.

It's not a lawful barbarian but there is no alignment restriction on bloodragers. You also tend to get a lot more out of a bloodrager dip compared to a barbarian dip.

You also tend to get a lot more out of a bloodrager dip compared to a barbarian dip.

Not for a natural attack based character, because two levels can grant an additional natural attack (Gore via Lesser Fiend Totem).

@AnUnlovedLobster: Is there a reason you don't want to tell us your ability scores, feats, and items (dito for the pet)?

That is true but there are other option for gore like Spirit Oni Master or Helm of the Mammoth Lord (may or may not need to be equipped after wildshaping). My preference is fewer level dips.

Haven't given stats coz I don't have them at the moment.
We play on Roll20 and I haven't been around my computer for a little while.

And I'm in the same mind as Grandlounge. The less level dipping the better, but if I have to level dip, I want thinks where a dip of a few levels actually helps.

Also, I can't seem to find it, but is there a feat that advances divine spellcasting levels?

No, if you want to advance spellcasting, you have to take the respective class levels (either in the original class, or a prestige class with the "Spells Per Day" feature*). There is a trait that helps with caster level for multiclass characters, and some other things increase caster level as well, but for spells per day and the highest level spells you can cast, only actual class levels help.

*) There is a feat that fills the gaps in prestige classes that advance spellcasting only for some levels, but that's only up to the maximum of prestige class levels.

And I'm in the same mind as Grandlounge. The less level dipping the better, but if I have to level dip, I want thinks where a dip of a few levels actually helps.

Well, you won't see me disagreeing (I did already say that advancing your spellcasting is the best you can do, after all), I just wanted to give you options. Additional natural attacks are pretty powerful for a character such as yours, and item-based options with Wildshape are always problematic and GM-dependent.

Magical Knack is a solid trait to grab though. Every little thing helps.

And Mammoth Rider doesn't add spellcaster levels so its not worth grabbing prestigious spellcaster. All good though!

I'm thiking a dip into Mammoth Rider is the way to go.

Probably not gonna dip into Monk anymore. The biggest thing monk adds is bonuses to AC and Unnarmed Damage and I can increase that with Monk robes and a feat (I forget the name but I'll find it).

I feel any more than 3 classes will screw me over more than it'll help.
But I'll grab Mammoth Rider and get the huge bear (and tbh, probably gonna still cast Anthropomorphic animal on it. Huge Werebear with a huge butchering axe has higher damage and also just sounds freaking cool).

And Mammoth Rider doesn't add spellcaster levels so its not worth grabbing prestigious spellcaster.

Yes, I was talking about prestige classes in general and only mentioned the feat for completeness. I don't think there are any other good prestige classes for your build.

I can increase that with Monk robes and a feat (I forget the name but I'll find it).

Why would you want to increase unarmed damage?

Nah I think Mammoth Rider is the way to go. Who doesn't love a huge werebear with a huge axe?
If I can justify a fourth class, maybe? But I honestly might dip into Mammoth Rider and then put the rest in Druid. Haven't decided yet tbh.

And I grabbed the robes back when I thought the Monk's unnarmed damage worked with Feral Combat training. Either way though, the robes push my AC something so they're still handy.