I agree with this. I do believe our first turn priority should be the castle though. It gives us discounts on several other buildings (including the Town Hall) and is a strong focal point for the RP side of things.
Next round my opinion would have been a Town Hall (why I mentioned it), but going with economy focused buildings does have merit. The mill does seem a good place to start. Pretty cheap and +1 to Economy and Stability. Both are useful.
Phase 1 - Upkeep
Step 1 (Determine Kingdom Stability) - Skip
Step 2 (Pay Consumption) - Skip
Step 3 (Fill Vacant Magic Item Slots) - Skip
Step 4 (Modify Unrest) - Skip
Phase 2 - Edict
Step 1 (Assign Leadership) - Ruler (Vacant, no penalties); Councilor (Green); General (Furiel); Grand Diplomat (Norton); High Priest (Jhod); Magister (Budgie); Marshal (Ta'de-win); Royal Enforcer (Kesten); Spymaster (Errol); Treasurer (Kressle); Warden (Merick the Defender)
Step 2 (Claim and Abandon Hexes) - Stag Lord's Fort
Step 3 (Build Terrain Improvements) - Build Farmland on Stag Lord's Fort Hex; Build Road on Stag Lord's Fort Hex
Step 4 (Create and Improve Settlements) - Establish Settlement on Stag Lord's Fort Hex; Build Castle on Stag Lord's Fort Hex; Build House on Stag Lord's Fort Hex
Step 5 (Create Army Units) - None
Step 6 (Issue Edicts) - None
Phase 3 - Income
Step 1 (Make Withdrawals from Treasury) -
Step 2 (Make Deposits to the Treasury) -
Step 3 (Sell Expensive Items for BP) -
Step 4 (Collect Taxes) -
Phase 4 - Event
Reposting this with updated ideas. I added the info to the spreadsheet as well so everyone could see what we would get. Our kingdom stats would end up as Economy 12, Loyalty 13, Stability 13 (Our stability will probably be higher depending on Jhod's Wisdom). Assuming an average roll of 10, we would gain 7 BP this turn. It looks like we should probably be concerned about too much expansion, considering how it affects the control DC. We're already at 22, and every hex increases it by 1. We'll need to look at stability and economy both on that.
Although I like the mill after the castle, I have another suggestion--foundry and smiths. The foundry provides a solid boost in economy and discounts on our smiths. If we can connect to a mine, it pays off even more by basically doubling the value of the mine.
turn 2 foundry (16bp) +2 econ
turn 3 blacksmith (1/2 off=3bp) +1 econ
turn 4 armorsmith (1/2 off=3bp) +1 econ
turn 5 weaponsmith (1/2 off=3bp) +1 econ
With a solid push to economy we can drop the waterfront (of Green's dream) followed by the 1/2 price guildhall when we have the BPs accumulated.
Not a bad idea, but at the same time we won't increase stability at all with that route. Our control DC is 22 right now, and will increase 1 a turn as we push to Oleg's. Right now we have +13 (probably higher with Jhod's wisdom), but every failed check will increase our unrest by 1. Houses will offset it of course at the cost of 3bp each. Not that I'm opposed, just a concern to think about.
I think the big thing is to not overextend ourselves, if we can secure a stable base, we can expand slowly but surely.
We have years and years to do this I bet, so no need to risk too much too fast.
That's a lesson I've learnd all to well in real life.
Okay, looking at downtime stuff, if no one minds me setting up a menagerie around the castle, using the Owlbear to start.
Day 1 - Start an Animal Pen. It'll take 16 days to complete.
Day 2 - Start a Courtyard. It'll take 24 days to complete.
Day 3 - Start a Stall. It'll take 16 days to complete
Day 4 - Start a kitchen. It'll take 12 days to complete.
I figure with the courtyard, that'll give a great area to display our biggest catch at any point. Which should satisfy Norton's request for a display of power. The Animal Pen is of course to hold the Owlbear for now. The stall is a place to stable our horses of course. And a kitchen to prepare food for the owlbear.
My later plans include building an observatory (think stonehenge, just thought it was amusing), a sauna, establishing a habitat (kind of helps with defense aspect if we have free ranging animals too), and of course an altar.
I can get up something a bit more RP when I get home, but wanted to get the mechanical idea up before I lose it.
If our unrest cannot go negative, we might as well build a tenement instead of a regular house and save the BP. We can upgrade the tenement later to get the unrest bonus.
A tenement does increase Unrest by +2, which I think is a bigger concern than we think right now. Admittedly the house's only advantage is being a pre-req for other buildings, and increasing our kingdom's size, but I'd prefer that personally.
There's also the RP aspect of it. I'd rather avoid tenements if we could.
To use Ta'de-win's proposal for her personal holdings as an example
The structures cost...
Animal Pen = 6Goods, 1Influence, 5Labor, 0Magic, 250gold
Courtyard = 4Goods, 0Inf, 5Labor, 0magic, 180gold
Stall = 6Goods, 1Inf, 5Labor, 0Magic, 250gold
Kitchen = 4Goods, 0Inf, 4Labor, 0magic, 160gold
(these downtime units are collectively referred to as Capital.)
They yield in earnings...
Animal Pen = +8 gold, goods, or labor
Courtyard = +5 additional to attached building's choice of earnings (animal pen)
Stall = +8 gold, goods, or labor
Kitchen = +4 gold or goods
These Earnings equal bonuses to d20 checks
Every (unit of time I am not sure of... trying to coordinate with kingdom building rules) you (or your manager, or other paid employee) roll an appropriate d20 check
a result of 10-19 yields 1 of the appropriate capital.
20-29 yields 2
30-39 yields 3
40+ yields 4
I think what I will do is make the rolls for personal holdings once a week.
For every day your PC spends at their holdings during downtime, they may make an aid another roll with the appropriate skill check. Each successful aid another adds +2 to the manager's weekly earnings roll.
Spending 5-7 days working at your personal holding allows you to make the roll with your appropriate skill, and the cap of 4 units of earnings is removed. (50-59 yields 5, etc... )
I don't think we actually pay the GP cost if we spend the capital. The GP amount is how much it would cost to buy the building outright from what I'm reading.
Create: This entry lists how much Goods, Influence, Labor, and Magic are required to construct the room or recruit the team. It also includes a gp value for purchasing a completed room of that type or recruiting an existing team of that type.
ahh.. yeah. I remember reading that now.
feel free to make perception checks... concentrate on either inspecting the writing or listen/watch ahead for a little bonus.
Sorry guys, got a delivery end of month and work has been crazy. Norton is with the group and ready to act.
No sweat Norton.
I'll put up a map in a little while. let me know your line-up (little more 10 foot wide halls)
Feel free to roll initiative and take one single action.
Merick - Empty (Soon to be earth elemental)
Ta De Win - Green
Norton - Furiel
I know there aren't specific zombies shown on map yet. You can just run up to the pile and attack as normal. They will form up into ranks next round, and the appropriate one will be damaged/destroyed.
Furiel's holdings
Day 1 begin magic repository
Day 2 begin greenhouse
Day 3 begin scriptorium
Day 4 begin bath
Furiel works with magic items to generate Magic
nicely done Furiel. That is a good idea for getting to the BBEG.
Well the tactics I like. The crit... not so much.
Thanks, gnomes are in tune with the earth. Earth elementals are handy--most dungeon floors, walls, even ceilings are swimmable for them.
The first elemental probably will step up after the hit to get to the BBEG too.
I think there should be a small chance the two earth elementals you summoned, happen to be really curious what the leader is up to and leave him alone.
I'm not certain the earth elementals can attack while still fully within the rock... I think there is the same restriction in water.
I need to run out for a couple. I will look it up and update map when I get back.
Heh, couple of what? Minutes? Hours? Weeks?
Just so you know, if it's weeks, I'm just going to say we won the battle and move on.
AND I'm going to collect 50 000 GP AND use my get out of jail free card.
No problem.
Adjust the elementals to hit what they can.
Earth glide may not be 'all that'
Thanks for posting the downtime sheet Ta De Win.
Downtime rolls are done per day. Furiel's earning 2.5 magic took a day and 'cost' him 50 gp per point or 125gp.
I don't think you can collect until it is built.
Also... I am going to modify the downtime rolls and frequency to integrate it with Kingdom building.
One possibility is...
For every day your PC spends at their holdings during downtime, they may make an aid another roll with the appropriate skill check. Each successful aid another adds +2 to the weekly earnings roll.
Every week you (or your manager, or other paid employee) roll an appropriate d20 check
a result of 10-19 yields 1 of the appropriate capital.
20-29 yields 2
30-39 yields 3
40+ yields 4
This number is multiplied by the number of adjacent hexes claimed and developed (including the holding's own hex), up to a maximum multiplier of 5.
Spending 4+ days working at your personal holding in one week, allows you to make the roll with your appropriate skill (if higher than your manager), and the maximum multiplier earnings cap is removed.
Fewer rolls, and business gets better the more developed the area is.
Or we can just use the regular system... but still, you can't collect from your holdings until they are built.
If you don't mind another suggestion.
I like the idea of weekly rolls instead of daily. While I love all the sub-systems, I think weekly rolls would help out in keeping things moving. If you assume four weeks a month (I know it's longer, but bear with me) that's 1 week for the kingdom, and three for downtime. I'd propose the changes like this.
Each 'month', we get four capital rolls. So instead of daily downtime tasks, we do it weekly based. Captial rolls are instead of x/10 for 5-7 days, we do it x/2 once. (x=skill roll for capital gain). We get a bonus based on settlement districts and/or hexes claimed. This would help to account for the days lost every month.
Managers - Instead of not having one, we assume we have a manager at any time. Without spending on one though, he has a +0 modifer to his skill. This is the person who would roll during a week we are exploring or kingdom managing. We can pay more each week for a skilled manager.
The skill roll would be based on our manager, or our roll if we are present during that week.
Building build times are adjusted to weekly time increments (8 days could be 1 week, 12 days could be 2 weeks, etc.).
Does that idea make sense?
Yes perfect! That is the kind of thing I was trying to get my mind to work out.
sooo...
PC with a +8 Handle Animal builds a chicken farm, and leaves town for a week
week1 PC is gone the entire week. Default (+0 skill) manager is in charge.
week2 PC spends a day or two at the farm
week3 PC knows he will be gone for months and hires a skilled manager with (+7 Kn(nature))for 2g/day. PC sticks around a couple days of the week.
week4 PC is out of town entire week
or
subtotal=58 (divide by 2)
29 total capital for the month (made up of whatever your holding and skill roll can generate.... goods, influence, labor, magic...)
right?
Actually, you're hitting on the part I'm confused on.
Earnings: This entry indicates what bonuses the room or team gives to its building's or organization's checks made to generate capital. Buildings and organizations act like characters in that they can attempt a check each day to earn capital performing skilled work (without costing you any downtime). You must pay for capital earned in this way as normal.
If the room or team's Earnings entry says "capital" and a number, it can contribute a bonus on the building's or organization's skilled work check for any type of capital (gp, Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic). If the Earnings entry lists specific types of capital, it can contribute a bonus on its building's or organization's skilled work checks only for capital of those types. You can apply each room's or team's bonus to any one listed type or capital each day or divide it among multiple listed types of capital. For example, an Alchemy Lab can generate only gp, Goods, or Magic, and not Influence or Labor. One day you could use all +10 of its bonus on the building's capital check to generate gp, on the next day you could use +5 on a check for generating gp and +5 on a check for generating Goods, and so on.
Most of the time, it's simplest and quickest to just apply all the gp bonuses from all the rooms in each of your buildings and take 10 on the roll. Other times, you might want to generate other types of capital to construct new rooms, recruit new teams, and make upgrades.
If you have multiple buildings or organizations in a settlement and they can generate the same kind of capital, you don't have to roll for them separately—you may add all their capital modifiers together and attempt one check for that kind of capital. If you spend a downtime day earning capital on your own, you may add your building and organization bonuses to your roll instead of rolling separately for yourself and each of your businesses or organizations.
For a room, the Earnings amount already subtracts the cost of having unskilled employees to do the basic work for you. For example, the Earnings listed for having a Bar already account for the wages of a bartender and servers. For a team, the Earnings amount assumes they are working at a building you own. If you don't provide a building for the team to work in or from, halve the Earnings for that team.
The description section of the unit stat block might list other benefits unrelated to the downtime system.
Example: The Inn example in the sidebar on page 92 has a Bar, a Common Room, a Kitchen, a Lodging, and a Stall. The Bar gives gp or Influence +10; the Common Room gives gp or Influence +7; the Kitchen gives gp or Goods +4; the Lodging gives gp +12; and the Stall gives gp, Goods, or Labor +8. All of those rooms can earn gp, so if you want to earn gp, just add all the room bonuses together (total +41) and make a skilled work check for the Inn to see how much gp you earn (see page 78). If you wanted to use the Bar's bonus to contribute to generating Influence and use the rest of the rooms' bonuses on gp, you'd attempt one skilled work check for Influence with a +10 modifier (the Bar's bonus) and another skilled work check for gp with a +31 modifier (the total bonuses from the Common Room, Lodging, and Stall).
From this and it's example, each day you can attempt a capital gain check for yourself on one capital type, and each building could attempt it's own check against each of the four capitals (if it can generate it). It does give you the option of combining modifiers to make one roll for each, but honestly, you'd probably lose out in the end on capital doing that (since each d20 would average another +1 capital).
So a modified version of your example. Let's suppose you have a bed & bathroom. Both generate +3 GP or Influence. In a week you could, with that building, make either a GP or an Influcence roll at +6, or combine both and do one of each at +3.
PC has diplomacy +8 and focuses on GP
week1 PC is gone the entire week. Default (+0 skill) manager is in charge.
week2 PC spends a day or two at the bed & bath
week3 PC knows he will be gone for months and hires a skilled manager with (+7 diplomacy)for 2g/day. PC sticks around a couple days of the week.
week4 PC is out of town entire week, but focuses on GP and influence
or
So in our example, GP gain is 80/2 or 40gp and Influence gain is 21/2 or 10 .
Now while I like lots of dice rolling, I know that's not everyone so not sure if you would want to simplify or not.
It may be helpful to do it by week.
Furiel was doing skilled work for one day without his holdings. He needed more magic to build his magic repository. I will post this as it is not easy to find in the rules.
Choose either one type of capital (Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic) or gp, and attempt a skill check. You can take 10 on this check.
If you chose gp, divide the result of your check by 10 to determine how many gp you earn that day. For example, if your check result is a 16, dividing it by 10 earns you 1 gp and 6 sp that day (round to the nearest silver).
If you chose Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic, consult the following table to see how much of that type of capital you earn. You must pay the Earned Cost to buy this capital, although if you can't afford to buy all of it or don't need more than a certain amount, you can choose to earn less capital than your check indicates. See the Capital Values table for the Earned Cost of each type of capital.
Skill Check Result
Capital Earned*
(Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic)
10 1
20 2
30 3
40 4
* For every 10 points of your check result after 40, you earn an additional capital.
If you are using this option to earn Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic, the skill you're using must be suitable for earning the chosen type of capital; if the GM deems it is not, using that skill reduces the amount generated by half (minimum 1). For example, Perform might earn you Influence as a musician, but it's not as useful for earning Labor. The GM should inform you of this before you attempt the skill check. In general, the appropriate skills for each type of capital are as follows.
Goods: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering, engineering, geography, history, local, nature, nobility, religion), Profession, Sleight of Hand, Stealth.
Influence: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Linguistics, Perform, Profession, Ride.
Labor: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Profession, Ride, Survival, Swim.
Magic: Appraise, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, nature, planes, religion), Linguistics, Profession, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
That is what the income generated from personal holdings is based on, but tweaked for weekly rolls.
And you could still use this... say as your example, a pickpocket could spend the day cutting purses and roll for their day's work... daily roll.
or they could "build" thieves' hideout with a ring of pickpockets that continue working while the PC is away. This would be a weekly roll.
As for your skilled work roll, I will let you use that tomorrow.
EDIT: missed Ta's post.. I'll respond in a second
divide by 2 = 34g
- week of wages (2g over 5days=10) = 24g for the week in capital
roll a 1... 49/2=24, 24-10 = 14g for the week in capital
With this you would earn capital roughly equivalent to the 1390gp cost of the inn in the example... in about a year.
In addition to the weekly rolls, each day you work yourself, you make an appropriate skilled work roll for the day. (as Furiel has in his spoiler above.) with this roll, you add only the bonus of the earning for the particular room. (such as Kitchen with an inn)
divide by ten instead of two because it is personal work for the day = 2gold 1silver
Or I can just make Furiel's roll a weekly roll and divide by 2 to generate 12.5 magic over a week.
We can say that running a job for the kingdom takes a week (you need a manager to run operations, but are not absent)
We can say you can use another of your 4 weeks free each month to run a business or do weekly work.
We can allocate our adventuring time in weekly increments too.
It may be possible to have us spend one of our weeks performing a second job for the kingdom until we hire replacements.
This system Ta De Win suggested has us allocate character time by weeks, which makes it simpler. 4 character weeks make up a 'kingdom turn=month'
No I would prefer downtime personal work to remain on a day to day thing. It is not something I would think you would have much time for... considering you are the leaders of the kingdom and adventurers already.
I might change my mind on this later, but I am set on that for now.
(if you were to decide to make an alt to switch in and out of "semi-retirement", your inactive character would make weekly rolls)
If you care to use a hero point, you will have your solution very soon in-game to your shortage in magic capital.
How strange...the reason why I didn't roll for confirmation on that crit is...it wasn't a crit when I posted.
The result was only a 14...
I will take 3 percentage rolls from each of you please.
Uh, ok...(Paranoia ensuing)
What a nice grouping.
I was thinking if there is a way to keep record of the passing of the days, since the further we go the more complicated time tracking will become.
I can set up something, I just need to know which day is today.
*sits down and waits somebody to answer: Thursday, October 24*
Well, it looks like we started on the 24th day of Talistril. So the question would be the year, and how long we've been exploring. It'd only be (checks page count) a lot of posts to review :P
I know somewhere on the forums there's a calendar of Golarion based on years and whatnot. Are you thinking daily tracking or something like a monthly summary?
The date today is Gozran 2nd (April 2nd). .... Incidentally, Talistril is a typo.. It is Calistril.
We will use our names for days of the week, but Golarion months.
I will ask if you are ready to move on (fast forward). Once I get 2 "I'm ready"s, I will wait a day for someone to say they are not ready.
I will then fast forward to whatever event is remaining for the month.
Once there are no events left for the month, we will do monthly summary... (including the four weekly rolls for your private holdings.)
When I ask if you are ready, you may also say "Yes, but just two weeks because my [X] will be ready then, and I would like to do some stuff.."
Added calender to Campaign info
1) Abadius (ah-BAY-dee-us) --- (January) --- Winter
2) Calistril (KAHL-izz-trihl) --- (February) --- Winter
3) Pharast (fah-RAHST) --- (March) --- Spring
4) Gozran (GOHZ-ran) --- (April) --- Spring
5) Desnus (DEZ-nuhs) --- (May) --- Spring
6) Sarenith (sa-REHN-ihth) --- (June) --- Summer
7) Erastus (eh-RAS-tuhs) --- (July) --- Summer
8) Arodus (AIR-oh-duhs) --- (August) --- Summer
9) Rova (ROH-va) --- (September) --- Fall
10) Lamashan (lah-MAHSH-ahn) --- (October) --- Fall
11) Neth (NEHTH) --- (November) --- Fall
12) Kuthona (koo-THOH-nah) --- (December) --- Winter