DM Barcas - Kingmaker: Rivers Run Red

Game Master Isaac Duplechain

Are we supposed to level up in this interlude? AM I getting my campaigns confused?

If Akiros and Nikolai ride together, do you still want it written up? Or do you want us to fight some trolls for you?

Just write it up in narrative.

And not yet for leveling up.

What building was the previous Bank of Abadar located in? And what will be happening with that building now?

What building was the previous Bank of Abadar located in? And what will be happening with that building now?

Well we really just described it as being in a section of one of the two "Houses" portion of the town - the original concept was that it was an open plan two-room/one-story schoolhouse that Jhod decided not to use, and Verik took over for his bank. It's been expanded twice, but is all wooden and isn't a defined building as per the Kingmaker rules.

Verik was going to 'lease' it out as a meeting hall for merchants and shop owners to meet at - eventually thinking it could grow into a guild-type Bureau, or maybe eventually a Guildhall.

As far as the 'Keyhouse' is concerned, which I described as a two-story boarding house structure where the Initiates and some guards were located, I was thinking of that eventually becoming a proper Orphanage, in part as a tribute to Tandlara.

Or...'lease' it to Iomeade as Her new temple? Unless this is a one temple horse town? ;)

I don't remember when we leveled last - but it certainly feels like *a lot* has happened since then. This is weighed against a number of new arrivals of course.

Didn't we level just before going off to see the centaurs?

Or...'lease' it to Iomeade as Her new temple? Unless this is a one temple horse town? ;)

Well...sure we could do that if you'd like! For some reason though I thought the "new" Bank (Temple) of Abadar and the "new" Bastion (Shrine) of Iomedae would be built in a different section of town together, and made largely out of stone from the new quarry. That would make 3 out of 4 lots for a district square...and then we could later on add a Graveyard to the final lot and maybe get a Pharasma caretaker for those grounds or something.

So either way you feel Akiros would want to have it, but I figured you would have new stuff :)

@DM Barcas: perhaps we need a small detachment of elves that meet with Verik and are very insistent about establishing the worship of Calistria.

Considering all the work Verik put into the Temple, I figured it would be an expansion or completion rather than a replacement. But it's up to you all. The BP has been spent. They're your projects so you can direct them as you will, so long as it makes sense in the story.

"Arikos' new wife brought a dowry of hard feelings, and that shows up most on the border."

Great turn of phrase, Meowz!

So it looks like you leveled up in January of real time. This was right after the dragon attack. Since then, you all have welcomed Willas, caught and flipped Hal, visited New Stetven, attended Berrin's wedding, discovered the troll/centaur summit, defeated a worg pack, disrupted the alliance, and gone to the future.

You'll level up after the elven fortress. It will also serve as an opportunity for catching up on equipment. Anyone have anything they'd like to request? No promises, but I will try to accomodate. I intended to level up after the climax of the book, but before is fine too.

Considering all the work Verik put into the Temple, I figured it would be an expansion or completion rather than a replacement. But it's up to you all. The BP has been spent. They're your projects so you can direct them as you will, so long as it makes sense in the story.

I do hate to give up the old Bank, since I had it all detailed out in my profile and was really home for Verik for a good while now. However, I always felt it was the cobbled-together and tacked-on Bank that would be replaced by a proper Bank when the time came. The BP spent on a full Temple building is impressive, so I'll describe that as being an entirely newly designed edifice, vision given form by Verik's enterprising young and gifted architect Galen Laviil.

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I'm looking forward to one of your new maps of Newhaven with the hexes, and it will be interesting to see how Varnhold has expanded in the summer of 4710 as well. Any chance you can show where the Nomen dominion is on the visible part of the hex map as well?

Also, I pulled the free download PDF for Ultimate Campaigns with the city grid and building cutouts. Would you mind if I took a shot at putting together a current city map of Sanctuary with that? Maybe I can entice Cromlich to work his Illustrator/Photoshop magic and make a digital representation of those cutouts.

Akiros Ismort wrote:

Or...'lease' it to Iomeade as Her new temple? Unless this is a one temple horse town? ;)

Well...sure we could do that if you'd like! For some reason though I thought the "new" Bank (Temple) of Abadar and the "new" Bastion (Shrine) of Iomedae would be built in a different section of town together, and made largely out of stone from the new quarry. That would make 3 out of 4 lots for a district square...and then we could later on add a Graveyard to the final lot and maybe get a Pharasma caretaker for those grounds or something.

So either way you feel Akiros would want to have it, but I figured you would have new stuff :)

Well, I guess it sorta depends on what definition of 'Shrine" we're using.

I do like the idea of a 'temple district', but if the shrine is currently just a monument or some such, Akiros would prefer to have it moved into the old 'Bank', and make a temporary temple out of it, exactly as was done for Abadar.

The idea of a meeting/guildhall is a great one too. I wonder which would bring in more money for the city, that or a temple?

Last but not least, I echo Barcus. "Arikos' new wife brought a dowry of hard feelings, and that shows up most on the border." was indeed a great turn of phrase Zandar!

Gee, thanks for dragging me into your map making disorder... ;P

Gee, thanks for dragging me into your map making disorder... ;P

"If you're in such a hurry, you could lower a rope or a tree branch or find something useful to do..."

Okay Akiros, here's your gear analysis for WBL. I didn't tinker too much I promise, but added a nice silver holy symbol of Iomedae for you. All the prices for gear were taken from Ultimate Equipment section of the Paizo PRD. I did not include a value for Kydal himself, as that is granted as part of the Samurai class, similar to an animal companion for a druid or familiar for a wizard/witch.

So depending on how you look at it, I would say you have some spending cap room up to WBL if you consider Verik's crafting feats allow for PC calculation of his crafted items to be considered at cost.

I'll let you sort that particular detail out though with our DM ;)

Well, I guess it sorta depends on what definition of 'Shrine" we're using.

So, Barcus, did Akiros get an actual building made, that people can worship in? Or just some sort of monument to Iomeade that people worship around. I was assuming that later, but if it's the former, Akiros will be content with that, at least for now. Perhaps it would help to define the difference between shrine and temple in this setting? (Verik, how do you know how much BP was spent on the temple btw?)

Yeah I definitely know what you are saying - the connotation of "shrine" is really misleading here with respect to the Kingdom Building Rules, so don't think of it as a shrine in the traditional sense. It's along the same lines as how "Houses" are defined in the ruleset - obviously there's more than two houses in Sanctuary, so the building of a "House" loosely defines a cluster of houses or even an entire neighborhood of average buildings in a given neighborhood or area. The Kingdom building "Shop" is the same thing to me - it's not like we have only one shop for the entire town, but rather a collection of common shops and merchant tents near what we consider the main square of the town.

So up to this point as far as the Kingdom building rules go, we didn't have a shrine, temple or anything like that. We essentially leeched off of the fact that we had a couple of "Houses" in Sanctuary to describe that Verik put together a "Bank" from one of the wooden buildings. Which I think is great, but doesn't officially jive with what the ruleset describes.

So now with these recent summer turns of 4710, we now officially have both a "Shrine" and a "Temple" building or cluster of buildings in Sanctuary. If you look at what the BP costs are for each, and assume that each BP represents approximately 4000gp in both hard coin and other types of currency (labor, goods, influence and even magical dweomers), we got ourselves some pretty pricey new setups for Abadar and Iomedae. The "Shrine" building cost comes out to 32000gp worth of money, labor and materials put into it. So to me that's no shrine in the classic sense, but a real temple (or Bastion if you want to flavor it up) to Iomedae. Maybe it's one-story but it's going to have stone and wood in the construction and a decent size to house clergy and hold worship, maybe even a small training courtyard or whatever you envision! By comparison, the old "shrine" to Iomedae in the bottom level of the Castle was truly more like a shrine - essentially a single room for worship.

The "Temple" cost is 32BP, so that's upwards of 128000gp worth of money, labor and materials put into it. That's simply massive. I'd consider it mostly stone with two stories, a couple of wing extensions and perhaps a couple of steeples on top of it. Compare that in very loose terms to the old "Bank" that was part of a "House" construct, and the old Bank was probably in the 4000gp to 5000gp range, maybe less.

As a final comparison, consider that the Sanctuary Castle itself is at 54BP, so that represents over 200000gp of stuff put into it! We built it at half-price due to the existing foundation of the Stag Lord fort when we founded Sanctuary, but it's an honest to goodness real stone castle with walls and halls and such. Even so, it's no "Palace" by New Stetven standards...or Kingdom Building standards (108BP ouch!).

Anyway, sorry to digress, but the Kingdom buildings are kinda weird like that in terms of interpretation. We've described a couple of taverns in Sanctuary, though we officially have no "Tavern" or "Inn" buildings yet (they're part of that nebulous "House" x2 structure set). The "Noble Villa" is described almost as its own neighborhood or compound, with a mansion-style building and other high-priced villas and homes for the wealthy. So on and so forth. Fun to imagine, but not a perfect building-for-building ratio when you try to match it back to the game mechanics.

Evening guys, two thing!

#1 I am brainstorming some ideas for the Harborage House and will be putting together a room by room description of it, much like Verik did with his Bank. I will also be putting together a post tomorrow about Elsir describing with the architect the general layout of the Lodge. It won't be anything too grand to start with, two floors high, containing about 5 rooms total as well as a dock. Also Verik, thanks for giving me an idea of what 32,000gp can accomplish in terms of a library.

#2 My wife and I are going to be taking a trip to Hawaii starting on Wednesday the 6th and going to Thursday the 14th. I will have internet, but aside from the occasional discussion post I am going to be out of game during that time.

Sounds fun. I hope you enjoy your trip.

Just watch out for 5.0

@Verik: I think the concept you're looking for (with respect to nebulous houses/taverns/inns) is shebeen. Since I'm in South Africa, I'm rather familiar with these. Of course I imagine that Verik (the character) would utterly abhor them

@Elsir: that sounds awesome! Have a safe flight and fun fun fun

I think Nikolai only wants improvements to the gear he has. I think of him as traveling light. I'll look again.

I'll try to have Nikolai And Akiros' Amazing Trollslaying Adventure up by the weekend. Have to design 2 fresh golems and about 3000 words of encounters first. And make another grand at the dayjob.

Well if you are in the market for any magical crafting, now's a good time with Elsir able to collaborate with Verik on Wondrous Items for things he can't normally craft by himself. Only one I think we can't really do much about is an Amulet of Natural Armor because of the barkskin spell. Verik will be taking Craft Magical Arms and Armor next level, so you can think about holding off for that as well.

Anyone have anything they'd like to request? No promises, but I will try to accommodate.

Depending on how you're viewing Verik's current gear amounts, I'd like to craft for him a Hat (Helm) of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic item over the summer period, particularly as he's visiting Candlemere and such. That would be a 2650gp cost-add to his gear. Anything else he's waiting on to craft when he has more (WBL) "funds" down the road.

Anyone have anything they'd like to request? No promises, but I will try to accommodate.

Jemini is (very) well equipped, so no need to go out of your way in that regard - however she is keen on returning Doctor Atago to life.

In the future Verik may be able to put together a circlet of persuasion for Jemini. Because that's how she rolls.

Jemini is (very) well equipped...

/snicker

Working on the interim post for Verik but it's taking a bit for me to sort out. However, I'm going to take a page from Jemini's requests and state that the new temple section (Temple+Shrine square) would be more than just the two buildings to Abadar and Iomedae. I figure there will be several smaller buildings/temples/shrines the size of the old Bank or even smaller, where devotions to other powers such as Irori, Sarenrae and Shelyn or even Cayden Cailean can hold services and offerings, even if they are not presided over yet by formal clergy. This would be Verik's attempt to foster an understanding between the powers as his role as High Cleric, including a common meeting hall space where the representatives of various faiths can routinely gather or debate. The last lot in that square would be perfect to go to a "Graveyard" in the near future turns, with a small temple to Pharasma at its center.

Hehe Verik would have originally called for a 'Park' space in that final lot in deference to Erastil and Jhod, but naturally Jhod is going to balk at Verik's ideas and instead call for a park space on the northern edge of town, apart from the rest of the "city" faiths.

EDIT: Just for fun in thinking about Sanctuary in terms of what is there, if you go to Red Dragon Inn's site and their Town Generator, put in the size of our "town" of around 3000 and see the different types of shops and merchants you can get for flavor.

The Red Dragon Inn's town generator is suspect. No brothels, whorehouses, pimpshacks, stripbars, redlight districts or similar. Not even on metropolis level. Unheard of!

Addendum: and that in spite of the tavern name generator listing "Lusty Nymph", "Wanton Dryad", "Rosie's Cheeks", "Elven Harlot", "Sweaty Dancer". Highly suspect if you ask me.

The Red Dragon Inn's town generator is suspect. No brothels, whorehouses, pimpshacks, stripbars, redlight districts or similar. Not even on metropolis level. Unheard of!

(sigh) Well Lore that's because it's an American created site - you obviously missed the box to check first. There's a box...to check...which then leads you to another site...which then has you fill out some 'basic' information verifying your age, married status, age, birth date, political affiliations, age and just a few other things our NSA needs to make sure you are appropriate to handle the extreme racy concept content. Then you get the good stuff, I promise!

(I hear the Green Dragon Inn site doesn't have an issue like Red does...run by halflings...much more enlightened on that particular issue...)

Jemini of Lebeda wrote:

The Red Dragon Inn's town generator is suspect. No brothels, whorehouses, pimpshacks, stripbars, redlight districts or similar. Not even on metropolis level. Unheard of!

(sigh) Well Lore that's because it's an American created site - you obviously missed the box to check first. There's a box...to check...which then leads you to another site...which then has you fill out some 'basic' information verifying your age, married status, age, birth date, political affiliations, age and just a few other things our NSA needs to make sure you are appropriate to handle the extreme racy concept content. Then you get the good stuff, I promise!

(I hear the Green Dragon Inn site doesn't have an issue like Red does...run by halflings...much more enlightened on that particular issue...)

"Do you, or have you ever in the past, affiliated with with communist thought structures? Have you been to Russia or any region associated with the Soviet Union in the past 68 years? Have you read any work by Karl Marx?"

...

...

...nyet.

Charges went out today on one of my cases. It was a ton of work, but I will hopefully have a spot more time to post now that it's behind me. I may get a new case next week, depending on how fast or slow Houstonians kill each other over the next seven days.

Charges went out today on one of my cases. It was a ton of work, but I will hopefully have a spot more time to post now that it's behind me. I may get a new case next week, depending on how fast or slow Houstonians kill each other over the next seven days.

Eesh. Hero's credit to the poor man who went in to help get the child out. That doesn't sound like a typical case due to the indirect nature of it.

That was a doozy of a post. The rivalry with Jhod has gotten quite out of hand. I wonder how the rest of the Founders voted.

I had a vision of a power-mad Verik gaining the throne via legalistic maneuvers, and ruling with an iron fist of regulation. Nikolai may be physically powerful, but Verik has red tape.

Uh oh it's a wall-of-text from Verik - must be interim time-passage post!

@Players: So I have a lot I wanted to write about with Verik and how this long summer has progressed with all the initiatives going in the city. Let me know if (because of any of this) you'd want to have a flashback conversation on something or work out in PM how the characters may have changed with their interactions.

I'm probably going to put up a third post with some personal interaction stuff between Verik and select PC's/NPC's. After that, I'd like to start out a calm evening scene on the the 19th of Rova at the Harborage House with an idea, but going to defer on that to see how DMB wanted the scenes to start.

That was a doozy of a post. The rivalry with Jhod has gotten quite out of hand. I wonder how the rest of the Founders voted.

I had a vision of a power-mad Verik gaining the throne via legalistic maneuvers, and ruling with an iron fist of regulation. Nikolai may be physically powerful, but Verik has red tape.

Yeah...well I wanted to come to real terms with Verik that at times he can be really jerky, especially in these phases of conducting politics and running his initiatives in the cities. I was going for the 'L' in LG this time around. I figured some drama with the Founders might be in order with all of this growth of the towns and the realm in general. I will try to reign in the Jhod-Verik animosity just a tad in my next interim post, as they still have a common interest in Tandlara's welfare since her fall.

EDIT: Now don't feel bad for the Desnans. Who needs 'em anyway? Bunch of hippies.

Now don't feel bad for the Desnans. Who needs 'em anyway? Bunch of hippies.

Um, anyone else have a problem with Verik and his Whitecloaks on that one? I think the primary Abadarian trainer does.

I see Verik laying the groundwork for Elsir to contend for the spot of Magister. If there are no complaints I'm going to start working in that direction from another angle. I would like Elsir shortly after opening the library to be asked to provide higher learning to some of the young adults of Newhaven. I may even include mentions of Magical Theory, in order to subsidize the cost of the Lodge.

Speaking of the Lodge, I wanted to check that my plans aren't too extreme for 6BP. Right now I'm thinking of a two story structure, 7-8 rooms, including a foyer, main library, smaller library for expensive tomes and study on the first floor with a second floor consisting of a atrium, lounge and private quarters for Elsir. I also considered several guest cottages for visiting Pathfinders as well as a residents for Gunderson. Thoughts?

Sounds about right.

Elsir as magister makes sense. Much better stats.

Hey Isaac - I found a city tool editor and put together a PDF map of Sanctuary in the Kingmaker grid if you want me to send it to you for review. I based it off of the older city reference in your Skydrive, with slight movement based on the changed requirements in Ulitmate Campaigns.

I won't be able to make a substantial post until Friday. I have had three planned, one for a recap of the building of the Harborage House and a second dealing with the politics surrounding it's construction. I plan to include mentions of Tandlara, the Grand Lodge, Dryblade House and Hymbria. I want to respond to Verik, but the post deserves more than two lines.

-Posted with Wayfinder

I've been wondering, I don't know what/how it could be implemented, but Jemini would certainly forward the notion that Jhod be promoted to a position of non-urban governance. Something like a minister of farming and rural development. A position that would include hamlets and towns of up to 400 citizens under his immediate authority.

Also it could be a position that would see him away for a significant portion of time. Something Jemini would seek to have some menial peace during the council meetings, and something that Jhod might also enjoy more than watching the obvious encroachment of excessive urbanities.

That's a neat idea for Jhod and makes a lot of sense. I mean, I suppose the Founders can make any number of positions on the Council that it deems worthy for Founders - it doesn't have to match up perfectly with the Kingdom Building positions (we just don't get any stat benefits to the Kingdom for those positions of course).

I'm assuming we do have some thorps and hamlets scattered across Newhaven, if nothing else than just a few communal buildings where the farmers come to trade and talk. The communal leaders of these areas would largely be of Erastil I'm thinking, and that ties back to the decentralized organizational structure that Jhod would have as being the "Patriarch" of his faith in Newhaven. So he has a pretty good following of clergy and devoted (larger than Verik I was assuming), but they're spread out across these thorps and hamlets.

I like the notion of our player characters having positions that have influence on the Kingdom Building rules, but sometimes its hard to make that fit organically - that was always an issue with how Taisper would fit in with the way the story developed. Elsir as the eventual Magister makes a lot of sense. For Borodin...well that's a tougher fit, as from a pure stats perspective the only two positions that might make sense are either Spymaster or Grand Diplomat.

What are all the 'official' Kingdom Building positions?

What are all the 'official' Kingdom Building positions?

This would be the latest and easiest resource to get to Ultimate Campaigns on PRD, but also DM Barcas has the listed positions on the Campaign Info Tab for us.

One thing I just noticed with the new Ultimate Campaigns leadership role descriptions - they swapped the functions of 'Warden' and 'Marshal' from what it used to be in Kingmaker rules. Which is annoying and to me an error based on what I take the words to mean. So from a mechanics standpoint the roles are flip-flopped in terms of the best use of stat attributes.

Of course we can just assign a non-mechanical position of eminence for Jhod; but since we aren't playing by PFS rules or such, we can (with DM Barcas' agreement) add/extend the game mechanics provided they are fun, sensible and balanced.

The traditional roles set out in Ultimate Campaign essentially manipulate the 3 major kingdom stats (economy, loyalty, stability) with a wiggle little room for special cases. For Jhod I propose the position of [TITLE], which puts the rural development of the land in his hands. In mechanical terms it represents him fostering small communities (predominantly farms, woodcutters, etc) which support the nation as a whole. The [TITLE] position is emphasized either by the holder's Constitution or his Wisdom modifier. The kingdom's size is considered smaller by that amount for the purpose of determining how hard it is to control (thus essentially reducing the control DC). In terms of flavor it represents the [TITLE]'s insight and feel for the land which help to maintain it that much easier. (Or potentially, in a evil dictatorship the fear instilled in the subjects.)

This may be too strong an effect, I've not read up on the rules recently, so if necessary the effect could be halved. Or something entirely different. I suspect it shouldn't be too big a deal, having an 80-hex kingdom count as 74 hexes for the purpose of controlling it doesn't seem game breaking.

Alternatively the [TITLE]'s bonus could be applied to any kingdom roll in which the rural area is part of the equation. This could happen for economy (farmer's market), loyalty (rebel hotbed), and stability (fey harass the farmers and woodcutters).

As a side note, I think if we do incorporate such new ideas, then such positions should always be filled by NPCs, never PCs.

Or we could do what Lorekeeper is talking about! That's a pretty good idea for a role there.

One new aspect of the Ultimate Campaign rules that weren't in the old set are the new diplomatic and trade edicts. I like how those edicts can meaningfully impact the kingdom building, but they're not an automatic or easy pickup, so some skill and effort has to go into doing them.

Gracias Verik :)

So to be clear: Nikolai is NOT at this emergency counsel, right? He is an officer as the queen's enforcer, but he is not really a Founder, and you didn't name him in the scene.

Nikolai in a torture dungeon. Wonder how that will go over.

Oversight. My bad. Nikolai is there.

Wow. Bloodrager really is right up Nikolai's alley isn't it? That's uncanny how that reminds me of his build - either with draconic or abyssal bloodrager bloodlines.

Bloodrager seems really, really powerful.