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DM Aron Marczylo's Kingmaker - Part 1: Stolen Land (Inactive)

Game Master overfiend_87


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Male Human Fighter (Armor Master) 4

Thanks for the clarification fellas. I don't mind either loot systems. Anything added to the party in any way helps it out overall.

I think the consensus is leaning towards the 'sale price' compensation option. I'll put my vote in for it as well. Potions, wands, etc - basically anything with a charge that 'may' be useful can definitely be taken out of the 'burn pile'. I wouldn't want someone to have to pay for something that 'may' be useful.

I have one suggestion: exclusive rights to such items (potions, wands, etc), say a metamagic wand, should be 'bought'. Just think, "Would I buy this item for myself and use it exclusively on myself?" If the answer is, "Yes," then it may be a good idea to pay the sales price into the party loot.

Also, what should we do if an item is equally beneficial/desired by multiple party members? A dice roll? A bidding system?


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3
Swaney wrote:
Just think, "Would I buy this item for myself and use it exclusively on myself?" If the answer is, "Yes," then it may be a good idea to pay the sales price into the party loot.

Dead on. Any scroll/wand with a target of "you" should be bought.

Opposing d20 rolls should be a good enough solution to any arguable items. I don't look forward to the day we find our first mithril shirt...


Male Half-elf Summoner 1

I'm not proceeding until we have all agreed on a looting system that is right for everyone. in me and my brother's opinoun, the system is not able to be fair to the person on the buying end. say u find a +3 sword that's easily worth over 10 K gold. Noone is going to be able to afford that. for a very very long time, and neither of us are willing to go along with DEBT to the party as well as 0 gold until we get enough to "reimburse" the rest of the party. there are items and equipment that are ideal for certain characters. so im sorry but I'm not going to pay the rest of u for say a magical wand that only has 3 charges left on it that is going to be worth ,say, 6000 g. also ur all making this sound like organized play loot system. Say we find a +2 Dragonbane greatsword and we then sell it. are we then saying that on top of having to pay thye others the rest of the money that we also can have multiple copies of a unique weapon or item? sorry but no, not going along with this.


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3

I'll give you two a moment to read the last 8 posts.

Ok. I agree that a +3 weapon is expensive, roughly 18300gp. If you refer to the wealth by level chart you would just be able to afford such a weapon at 7th level with a few peanuts left over for armor or some other trinkets. By the time we reach an opponent that carries a +2 dragon bane greatsword you can expect that opponent to have +3 armor, rings, amulets, bracers, gold, diamonds, etc... The wealth system works exponentially meaning that as levels and therefore difficulty rises, the rewards evolve by leaps and bounds to compensate.

In a game fully designed by Paizo I would imagine they've punched the numbers through dozens of calculators for an even leveling system. Just because this proposed looting system is tough doesn't mean it isn't fair. In fact it's fairness is to a fault because of its toughness.

Also, to reiterate, wands/potions/scrolls that are party benefits are removed from what we're hereby referring to as the burn pile.


Male Half-elf Summoner 1

and i'll give u a moment ganit to read my 2 posts

I am NOT paying you guys for an item that i know is beneficial to me. What i think is completely fair, is taking an item from the stack, and then nothing else. If u see a nice sword, and it makes sense for ur character to have it and no one else argues w u over it, u take that sword, and nothing else from the pile, allowing everyone else to get what they want, even if its only money.


Male Elf Wood Elementalist Wizard

Lol im sorry guys but this is just plain stupid. Why is everyone nitpicking over gold? Game gold at that. Your playing characters that are just finding this s%~#. Play the game not the numbers please. Further more I am not paying you for the explicit privilege of using an item only im able to use sorry.

You find an item and gold you get the item you dont get gold.

Next time you find an item and gold someone else gets the item cause they have nothing you get gold

You find gold you all split the gold.

im sorry ganit this progressed so far when we first started I was under the impression that when you took the bow thats all you took cause was a really nice bow period end of discussion I had no idea what you meant by paying the party otherwise I wouldve said no worries man. Now if were going to progress find a different solution because I aint going on like this. I am a wizard I find a spellbook only I can read and use Im not going to pay the fighter out of what gold ive managed to save to have the honor of keeping it when on the other hand I would never dream of forcing the fighter to pay me for the sword that I cant even lift.


It is not "paying" for anything. It is distributing the loot evenly based on its sell value. If you go 10 battles without claiming any treasure, just gold, and then there's an item you can use/want that uses up all the gold you've received from those 10 battles, you didn't "pay" for it, you simply waited until you saw something you wanted to claim out of the treasure. What Ganit did originally is claim something before he had built up "credit" because it was a really nice item early, and then he's filling in that credit from future treasure as it comes in. This is a "fair" distribution.

All that said, if you two feel that strongly about it (which is fine :) ), then I say we move to the system where we all take what we want/need and split the cash evenly. I do NOT like the idea of only being able to get one item per treasure. This treasure is the perfect example, as most of it should go to Tholamin :)

No one is nitpicking, we've just been discussing various distribution systems.


Male Human Fighter (Armor Master) 4

I thought what Ganit and Cambyl proposed was a very clever way to distribute loot in a very equitable manner. It can be tough to make things fair if someone keeps picking up very valuable items just because they are the only one that can use it. It becomes another nasty problem when they sell those items and buy further upgrades. The loot system you brothers described works well in small groups of friends around a table top where wealth sharing is common practice and where it's not effective to eat up time and crunch numbers at a 4-6 hour session. Luckily, via forum posting, we have the time to split the loot up in a way that is fair and will cause less headaches in the long run.

The more I think about it, the more I am FOR the system Ganit and Cambyl were discussing. I don't think I would enjoy playing with the other system. It just seems like it would cause a lot of headaches. I'll feel a lot better having some money to buy what I want in town after everyone in the group got some awesome magical loot and I was just unlucky. Heaven forbid if any one of us was a small character and we went with the 'pick an item, miss out on that encounter's gold system.' Everyone would be sporting nice shiny medium armor with their medium weapons and the small character would be trying to scrape up enough cash to keep up with the group, because he wouldn't be receiving any of the big-bucks. Like you said in your post earlier, Zayne, that +3 sword costs a hell of a lot of money, and just giving it to a person after that encounter without any compensation is craziness. Sure they might miss out on the 400 gold or whatever was laying around in the encounter, but they just made a couple thousand off of that sword.

I don't know what the kingmaker AP is like loot wise, but I assume there is going to be some disparity in loot (heck in the player's guide, under the fighter, it says there are a lot of arms and armor lying around). Who knows, there could be a +2 scimitar in one encounter and +2 spiked light shield in the next. Well since Lukan uses these as his primary means of combat, he should get them and forgo the gold wealth. While the group splits whatever meager amount of wealth that is left in those two encounters 5 ways, Lukan has just earned himself a hell of a lot of wealth. I don't know about you, but if I were you, I would not like that one bit. I just don't understand how the system you have proposed would make that fair. Can you tell me how it would?


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3

The system I came up with is designed so that everyone gets a chance to advance equally by discouraging greed and ensuring everyone has a similar net worth. Example: We come across a cache consisting of a ring of protection +1, bracers of armor +1, an amulet of natural armor +1 and 3 bucklers. Even though they each provide +1 to AC their prices range from 15gp to 2000gp. I guarantee it would take about a week in real time before we agreed on how to split up the treasure and get around to actually playing the game. Swaney is totally right about the difference between pbp and tabletop games. Most games are run on a ticking clock so when time comes to split treasure, busting out the CRB and a calculator seems silly and wasteful. It won't be until these adventurers sell everything that Joey So-n-so realizes that Billy Blue's ring of protection sells for twice the gold as his bracers of armor.

Cambyl, Bron, and Swaney have been incredibly helpful with the fine tuning of this system. Seriously guys, you've caught a few things I overlooked and your suggestions and insight is sincerely appreciated. Thanks!

Zayne and Tholamin I understand your issues, it's different from home games. I think of it as a mathematically efficient way of '...u see a nice sword... u take that sword, and nothing else from the pile...' leaving little room for one person to continuously justify having the best available equipment. The word "buy" is entirely relative. This is first level, the most gold any of us could have started with was 175. In ~5 days in game we've each matched that in rewards. By the current rules the rest of the party has helped with, the only things from this haul going in the burn pile is the book, ring and dagger. By the time we get back to Oleg's you, Tholamin, should have been able to copy all of those spells into your book. If not, the cost of the book is subtracted from your share of what we sell back to Oleg from our travels. That cost is equal to what its sales price so when you do finish copying spells, you can sell it to Oleg and have your 25gp for whatever you see fit.

Personally, I don't really feel like posting any more examples because all the necessary information is already in previous posts. So, ignoring childish banter I'm going to again request to put the subject up to a vote.

All in Favor of this proposed looting system, say Yae. All Opposed, say Nae.

Yae


Male Half-elf Summoner 1

listen guys, im not being childish im simply telling you that neither i, nor my brother, are going to pay the rest of U for equipment we find on the road. especially since ALL items YOU guys sell only goes for half, so im actually losing twice as much money than I would have made anyways. if lukan finds a +2 scimitar, he takes it, and nothing else. if he then finds a +2 spiked shield, which i have never seen in any adventure path i have ever enountered, but for exposition sake say he does, HE is the only one who uses them, and it simply is good luck for him. so he takes the shield. but when we find +2 scalemail in the next encounter, he does NOT take it and gives it to whoever else needs it because he gained 2 good items and thus it is only fair for him to give up other good stuff to make up for it. so again. I. am. not. paying. you. guys. for. LOOT. period.


I don't think anyone's being childish, I just don't think you guys are understanding the system as it's described.

You aren't paying for loot. You don't lose anything. All it is is using gold as a placeholder until you find loot you want... You don't "pay" more for stuff you want than you would get in gold selling it.

If Tholamin wants the book (as he should) and "pays" 25 gold for it from the treasure pool... he can later sell it for... 25 gold when he's copied the spells... nothing lost, nothing "paid" for.

If you want the masterwork dagger and "pay" 75.3 gp for the right to take it from the treasure pool right now... and later on decide you don't actually want it, you can sell it for 151 gold, meaning you get the 75.3 you "paid" and the 75.7 that would have been your share of this particular treasure pool...

you don't lose anything. Everyone gets exactly the same value.

I do think it's crazy we're having this much trouble deciding on loot, as I think the RP is much more fun and interesting :). I guess it's better to get it hashed out now than when some really cool stuff comes along, though.


Male Elf Wood Elementalist Wizard

Childish banter huh? I could tell you what you can do with your banter Ganit, put it up your fifth point of contact and leave it there. No I dont understand loot system and I dont care to. Think about this this is coming from the wizard and the summoner we will never have loot that equals yours period. So ill say this I want to move past this and im not going along with it sorry. I dont want the book I write down the spells and im done with it . And im not going to "pay" for that privilege. I enjoy the game but not so much that I wont drop it and leave to move on.

In real life there is no way of doing this and the way i play is that I take as real life. i dont do this fantasy system where everyone gets an equal amount of gold its b@#!#%+! lol.

Abd you honestly want to slow the whole entire party down by keeping placeholders lol Ok I need this item so im in debt this much oh well oh now we have more loot well now I gotta reconfigure everything to see how much in debt i still am.

Lol this is stupid now we can either move on and shut up about it or we stay stuck here.


Moving on and "shutting up" doesn't help anything if we're not able to decide this.

I'm going to make another attempt to explain the system, and then I'm going to make a request of everyone.

If people could avoid letting their tempers flare until I can get it up, I would appreciate it.


First of all, Tholamin and Zayne, I'm not entirely sure what your concerns are. No one here is trying to cheat you guys out of gold or loot or make you pay more for loot we could just split between everyone. We're all trying to decide on a simple and fair way to distribute loot.

As far as I know, no one is really that concerned with obtaining a lot of loot, we just want what we do get to be fairly distributed.

Now, I'm going to outline the system that Ganit put forth, as well as the changes we've discussed, so we're all clear on exactly how it would work.

Loot Distribution Rules:

Step 1: Get treasure from killing bad guys or something similar.

Step 2: From this pool of treasure, remove any consumable items. This includes food, ammo, potions, wands with charges, and scrolls that will be used as scrolls (Scrolls to be copied into spellbooks or not used would be normal treasure). These items will be distributed to those that can and will use them, and we'll all be better prepared because of it.

Step 3: Calculate the sell value of what treasure remains in the pool. Divide this by the number or party members to determine the "share" each person gets from that treasure.

Step 4: If anyone wants to keep an item, rather than sell it, they replace it's sell value, with gold. (You take the masterwork dagger worth 151gp and replace it with 151gp). Please note: This is an even swap, no one pays more than what we would get if we sold it. The value of the treasure pool stays the same.

Step 5: Sell everything we're not keeping and split the gold between everyone.

(This isn't how it's been described before, but it is exactly the same)

Here is an example of how this would work:

Example:

Step 1: We kill a redcap that has been hoarding treasure for a century. It has a Sword of Killing Stuff worth 20,000gp, a Staff of Awesomeness worth 14,000gp,17 potions of Cure Moderate wounds, 12 arrows of of slaying dragons, a wheel of cheese, a diamond worth 12,000gp, a masterpiece painting worth 10,000gp, and 2,000gp in assorted cash.

Step 2: We remove the consumables from the treasure pool: The Potions of Cure Moderate wounds, the arrows of dragonslaying, and the wheel of cheese. We can feast on cheese while curing our wounds after slaying a dragon, but we won't sell any of that.

Step 3: Calculate the sell value of what treasure remains: Half of 20,000, 14000, 12000, and 10000 is 28,000 gp plus the 2,000 cash... so the total sell value is 30,000gp, each "share" is 5,000gp.

Step 4: Lukan want's The Sword of Killing Stuff, so he takes it, and replaces it with 10,000gp which is what it would have sold for. Tholamin wants the Staff of Awesomeness, so he replaces it with 7,000gp. No one wants the diamond or painting, so they are still in the treasure pool. What is in the treasure pool now is: A diamond worth 12,000gp, a Painting worth 10,000gp, and 19,000gp cash

Step 5: We sell the diamond and painting for 11,000gp, and split the 30,000 gp cash so everyone takes 5,000gp, including Lukan and Zayne getting some of their cash back. Everyone gets an equal share of the treasure.

Now, if this splitting of the sell value still doesn't makes sense, I can describe it in a different way. Please take a few minutes to think about it and see if this makes sense to you guys.

Forget about splitting the loot. Pretend the loot is all communal. We take all the loot and put it in a big pile at Oleg's, selling anything we won't use, and taking all the gold and putting it in a big pile we can all use. If there's a spellbook or a +1 sword, we take it and use it. If we want to buy a potion of barkskin+3 we take the cash and buy it. Everyone can use anything, and as long as we don't spend more than the group has earned as a whole, we can buy anything we want.

Sound fair?

That is EXACTLY the system Ganit put forth, and several of us have agreed is fair. The only difference is, instead of keeping track of the gold in one place, and creating the headache of one person managing 6 people's inventory... we're splitting it up... that way when you want to buy a ration or a scroll, you don't have to tell the inventory manager, you just manage it yourself. (Also, you can't spend everyone else's gold on that Staff of illusion that cost 82,000gp when the group's only got 83,000gp total.)

All Ganit is doing by figuring how much people "pay" for their items is bookkeeping. If we follow this system... and all survive until we decide to retire and drink ourselves to death at lvl 22... we could all sell our awesome equipment, total up the cash we've hoarded or spent on consumables... and all six of us would have EXACTLY the same amount of gold to retire on.

So, on to my request. I would request that even if you don't fully understand how this will work, how it will be fair, or how much loot and gold you might get in any given treasure pool... you still just try it for a while. Who knows how long it will be until we even get something that is valuable enough to matter. If we try it for a while, and you're left unable to sleep at night because you couldn't handle "paying" the difference in your share and the value of the item you want... then by all means quit. The game is supposed to be fun, and there's no need to stress about it.

If it comes to a vote, I'm going to vote for this system, as it is the most "fair." And I've said all I can think of to say on the matter, although I'll be happy to clarify anything I screwed up. I apologize if any of this offends anyone :). I much prefer playing as Cambyl... he's just so happy all the time :).


Male Elf Wood Elementalist Wizard

ok this last time im posting till dm decides. I am not paying "YOU" for the privilege of using in an item we find.I am not going to be carrying around money just to give to the party so everyone feels all happy and fair about finding items. Stop crunching money and just play the game who gives a crap if everyone gets an equal amount of gold sometimes you cant and who cares?


But you CAN be perfectly fair, and as Ganit has volunteered to do all the work, it takes ZERO effort on your part.

Why do YOU care that it shouldn't be fair?


Also, you don't have to take any items. You can just take the cash, and hoard it or pay full price for stuff you want. Doesn't matter to anyone else.

If you refuse to allow any method except your own... well that's not going to go over well.


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3

Thanks again for taking helm on this Cambyl.

My apologies Tholamin but there isn't much room in any of my five points of contact for anything, even the intangible. Besides whether pinky or thumb (relatively either could be considered the 5th), opinions have a way of dripping from the fingers onto the keyboard in a most enjoyable fashion. Too enjoyable for me to keep them plugged.

Childish banter occurs when a civilized debate between adults is hijacked by a body who makes hostile complaints, offering to them little to no valid support. The banter quickly ensues as logic or reason neglects to fuel an argument(that is to say an argumentative statement) and those involved are forced to resort to schoolyard rhetoric.

Willfully stepping out of line I would say it is not only unhelpful but is also incredibly rude to force one's heels to the ground and shout that there is no alternative; that there should only be one way of handling a problem and all other possible solutions are fundamentally wrong, holding hostage what should have been a simple decision between peers. We are, after all, a team and there stands a majority rule system that none of us could truly debate successfully.

Zayne and Tholamin, your ooc posts have continuously grown more and more rude since this AP started. The majority of your teammates have been going out of their way to turn the other cheek and simply attempt to sway you with kind words and tangible proof, loot system is not the first of these occurrences. The very least two of you could do is choose your words. A debate is beautiful way of expressing ideas and offering new perspectives on a subject. If you can provide rational arguments besides 'expensive items are expensive' or 'do this or I quit' I'm sure others would be more accepting of your views. It's not a matter that you disagree with myself or Cambyl or Lukan, its the simple fact that you took it upon yourselves to make the matter personal. Both of you are playing a different Kingmaker PbP, if you can't be respectful to us I'd suggest that you leave and focus on that one.


Male Elf Wood Elementalist Wizard

Look I am trying to see the point of the system and I just find no logic in it. And your right ganit It has been increasingly rude because I find it insulting that you have been increasingly rude to me and my brother. I just don't understand this loot system and forcing others to go along with it is not fair. When this system was first started I did not understand it as such I didnt think it was fair to you ganit that you were being penalized for using a bow that was meant for you. All I think that instead of using a numbered system in a game that revolves around the characters making human decisions it has no room for people to press pause and crunch all these figures when you could simply move forward and yes Im digging in my heels because i find it offensive that you believe us not to know anything as you have stated very bluntly on here as well as disregarding both of our characters in game. You as well as lukan have only ever interacted with us when your characters take time to insult us. Both of you just assume that what you decide everyone goes along with because your both "experienced". Also id appreciate it if you didnt go through my profile and poke your nose in business that doesnt concern you. What that game is about is using the game as a standing board and then the gm makes it their own not exactly following it to the letter. What you are doing is point in fact bullying and I dont appreciate it sir. Excuse me if I lost my temper for a second.

Cambyl I really appreciate your efforts to put us more at ease and show us the logic of the system but that to me is the problem it is a system. You don't use that in your day to day lives and shouldn't be involved in what equals the characters day to day lives. and that is my argument.

I just dont understand why this has to be so complicated just so everyone has xyz gold silver copper as everyone else. it is just a game and the betterment of the party will go further than making them take a negative to their loot and making them "buy" the same item that we just find laying around. no this is silly and Im done talking about it call me names and insult me all you want but until I hear a dms ruling count me out of this discussion.


Male Human Fighter (Armor Master) 4
The Hermit Ganit D'Artain wrote:

Thanks again for taking helm on this Cambyl.

My apologies Tholamin but there isn't much room in any of my five points of contact for anything, even the intangible. Besides whether pinky or thumb (relatively either could be considered the 5th), opinions have a way of dripping from the fingers onto the keyboard in a most enjoyable fashion. Too enjoyable for me to keep them plugged.

Childish banter occurs when a civilized debate between adults is hijacked by a body who makes hostile complaints, offering to them little to no valid support. The banter quickly ensues as logic or reason neglects to fuel an argument(that is to say an argumentative statement) and those involved are forced to resort to schoolyard rhetoric.

Willfully stepping out of line I would say it is not only unhelpful but is also incredibly rude to force one's heels to the ground and shout that there is no alternative; that there should only be one way of handling a problem and all other possible solutions are fundamentally wrong, holding hostage what should have been a simple decision between peers. We are, after all, a team and there stands a majority rule system that none of us could truly debate successfully.

Zayne and Tholamin, your ooc posts have continuously grown more and more rude since this AP started. The majority of your teammates have been going out of their way to turn the other cheek and simply attempt to sway you with kind words and tangible proof, loot system is not the first of these occurrences. The very least two of you could do is choose your words. A debate is beautiful way of expressing ideas and offering new perspectives on a subject. If you can provide rational arguments besides 'expensive items are expensive' or 'do this or I quit' I'm sure others would be more accepting of your views. It's not a matter that you disagree with myself or Cambyl or Lukan, its the simple fact that you took it upon yourselves to make the matter personal. Both of you are playing a different Kingmaker PbP, if you can't be...

Agreed.

You have had my vote for the loot system. I think it's awesome. Thanks for all the effort you guys have put into this.


So, what's the deal, guys?


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3
Cambyl wrote:
So, what's the deal, guys?

I suppose we're waiting for a few things.

1. Sir Bronwyn's opinion on this most pressing matter.
2. DM Aron's opinion on this most pressing matter.
3. (Most importantly) Information regarding how we fared in mapping the rest of that hex.

Soooooooo... Yeah. Uhhh... How was your weekend?


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia
The Hermit Ganit D'Artain wrote:
Cambyl wrote:
So, what's the deal, guys?

I suppose we're waiting for a few things.

1. Sir Bronwyn's opinion on this most pressing matter.
2. DM Aron's opinion on this most pressing matter.
3. (Most importantly) Information regarding how we fared in mapping the rest of that hex.

Soooooooo... Yeah. Uhhh... How was your weekend?

Sorry guys was on a course over the week so when I saw the arguments I just really didn't have the energy to want to deal with it, but I've had a day or two so now I can hop in. I'll update the map in a sec and have you guys move to the next hex which you wish to do.

First the loot system. I can see the wisdom of Ganit's side, but I too see a problem with if the person doesn't have the money to afford the item and many people don't like to be in debt. For instant as some of you said what is Lukan finds in a treasure horde a +2 scimitar which is worth 8350 gp. Now say he wants this weapon, but doesn't currently have the cash. That would mean he'd have to empty his purse and owe you guys the rest.

At the same time the other system I have experience with and is fair as those who would take the weapons would forgo the cash. This has some problems as with the rarity with certain sized weapons, however when you guys get to the kingdom building stage I'll be rolling using random tables from the GM guide to come up with random magic items to fill in the slots.

The kingdom building part certain buildings you build will produce magic items slots. Minor, moderate and high. Depending on the roll you might end up with something completely random.

For example, when I joined a friend's IRL Kingmaker (at part 2) I had bought the equipment for my level and then as the DM started up again he rolled up a +1 Darkwood Heavy Crossbow Repeater. I loled because my character was a Inquisitor so I had the proficiency and was the only one in the group who could use it, but I used most of my money. I agreed to hand over most of my cash and owe one of the guy's an extra 1k for the weapon.

So you see, it can be anything that is rolled up. I wanted to buy it and with kingmaker you have four options. Buy, Sell, Take or Leave. Buying will remove it and re-open the slot. Selling you can sell for BP to help with kingdom building, again re-opening the slot. Taking means you steal it for yourself because "I iz Rooler" which re-opens the slot and creates unrest as you've just taken something from the public without paying for it and Leaving where you leave the item there which means you take up the slot, but at the same time it's there for if you have the money to buy it.

Anyway back to the loot system. I personally didn't want to dirty my hands on the subject as I don't want to seem to be playing favourites or making the majority uncomfortable so I'm going to say that the majority vote goes for it.

So far my counting is:

Ganit's suggested system:
Ganit
Cambyl

Tholamin's suggested system:
Tholamin
Zayne

so I'm waiting for Sir Bron and Lukan to make their votes for a Majority ruling.

Both sides have good and bad points and it's something to remember that you haven't even discovered a quarter of the map so there are many more possible places to find even more treasure, so you shouldn't fret. Not to mention Oleg will have restocked with some items when you return.

Anyway, this is a really great group and all of you bring a lot of interesting roleplaying to the table as well as how your IC personalities bounce off one another. I'd hate for a simple argument over treasure to split the group.


Welcome Back. I took off for a few days in Reno, so I've been ok with a break :). I'll be back home tomorrow, but obviously I still check in :)


Male Human Fighter (Armor Master) 4

My vote has been for Ganit's suggested system.


Male Human Bard 4

I don't mind either way, actually. I think people on both sides of the discussion may have took things a little too seriously, and these feelings are spilling in the IC.

In one of the games I DM irl the players use a system just like Tholamin said (you take the +2 sword and get no gold) and it works out fine. But then there you have five players who are friends outside the game and understand each other quite well. That does generate a disparity in power level, though, and in mid-to-high levels that disparity only goes higher. Seeing as we're playing an Adventure Path and almost all of the loot is already designed, that is bound to occur A LOT.

What I think we need to agree beforehand (and this is the topic I've seen to generate more discussion) is how we'll deal with items usable by two or more players. The day it appears any good light armor we'll probably have a fistfight to decide who gets it, for instance (as Ganit pointed out).


Male Half-elf Summoner 1

@ Bron the instance you describe is easily negated where person with lowest magical item or least effective item gets the new improved item say fighter a has +1 sword and fighter b has a masterwork sword they then find +2 sword fighter b would get it since he has "worse" sword. Yes I know they're instances where that system is perfect but honestly there's 2 casters here so that really rules out magical weapons for them and any armor, we would only need rings of deflection and things such as that cause only source of armor and again it would be based on who would need it the most


I did have an idea that might satisfy you guys. Instead of "paying" for the extra portion of loot, out of gold you have, you could not collect gold for the next few fights until the value catches up.

So, say your share of a treasure is 5,000gp, but you want the +2 sword worth 8,000gp from the pool. You could either pay the 3,000gp if you have it... or, I doubt it would be much more work for Ganit to keep track of that 3,000gp and next battle, when your share is 4,000gp but you don't want any items... you take 1,000gp instead, and the rest is split between everyone else.

This is essentially the same as what we've been saying, but removes the "paying" for anything.


I don't think anything spilled over into IC Bronwyn, as that interaction started before this discussion began.


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3
DM Aron wrote:
Anyway back to the loot system. I personally didn't want to dirty my hands on the subject as I don't want to seem to be playing favourites or making the majority uncomfortable so I'm going to say that the majority vote goes for it.

No worries brother, I appreciate your humbleness in allowing a player forward style of play. Especially seeing as you reserve the right to decree whatever you feel is compliant with your game system. Practically any point you would have joined would be as messy as the last so don't worry about your hesitance to post. Weekends are typically busy for most so I wouldn't worry about that either. I myself spent the last two days with some pretty hefty wedding responsibilities so I'd have only been able to post every 12 hours if by the grace of God.


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia
The Hermit Ganit D'Artain wrote:
DM Aron wrote:
Anyway back to the loot system. I personally didn't want to dirty my hands on the subject as I don't want to seem to be playing favourites or making the majority uncomfortable so I'm going to say that the majority vote goes for it.
No worries brother, I appreciate your humbleness in allowing a player forward style of play. Especially seeing as you reserve the right to decree whatever you feel is compliant with your game system. Practically any point you would have joined would be as messy as the last so don't worry about your hesitance to post. Weekends are typically busy for most so I wouldn't worry about that either. I myself spent the last two days with some pretty hefty wedding responsibilities so I'd have only been able to post every 12 hours if by the grace of God.

It's out of the way though so I'm back to being unemployed and simply sitting at home. Seeing as we're at a stand-still with the voting at Lukan has for Ganit and Sir Bron is undecided I'll have to make a decision.

I can see the good and bad of either and to make it fair I'll flip a d2 on here just to make it fair.

1: Ganit's System

2: Tholamin's System

1d2 ⇒ 2

The dice has spoken!

Now I hope we can get back to the game and if we run into a situation over who gets a ring of protection or amulet of natural armour then I hope there will be other items in the treasure pile to choose between.

Now, there is an entire area to explore (there are extra parts of the maps so the stolen lands is even bigger that what you can see on the current map) and many mysteries hiding out there.


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia

oh, and since I didn't actually know the price of the book then to make the loot truely 50% more than origonal then you also find a pouch of 25gp.


Male Human Fighter (Armor Master) 4
DM Aron Marczylo wrote:
Anyway back to the loot system. I personally didn't want to dirty my hands on the subject as I don't want to seem to be playing favourites or making the majority uncomfortable so I'm going to say that the majority vote goes for it. .... I can see the good and bad of either and to make it fair I'll flip a d2 on here just to make it fair.

Actually the majority was for Ganit's system - 3 for, 2 against, 1 abstained, but I can see you changed your initial ruling so it matters little now.

Fellas, as much as I'd like to play some Kingmaker, I think I am going to have to step out. I can see the road we are headed down and it just doesn't look fun to me. I was looking forward to building a kingdom, but it seems as if there were any disagreements to where the kingdom would head, it would be solved with a dice roll. Not my cup of tea. I'm more fond of logical discourse on subjects to find the best course of action.

I'm tired of being accused of 'bullying' and being cursed at with just about every post Tholamin makes. It just isn't fun. If anyone is doing the bullying in this group, it is you Thomalin. If someone was talking like that in any local group they would have been asked to leave a long time ago.

I'm going to miss your posts, fellas. It was a pleasure roleplaying with you Ganit, Cambyl, Zayne and Bronwyn. I really wish I could have seen where our characters would have ended up down the line, but the drama and badgering coming from Tholamin is just too much for me. I had hoped that for once logic, reason, and perhaps the majority would rule in this one case. I was holding on, hoping, but I guess it just wont prevail. Good luck out there.


Male Half-elf Summoner 1

In a local game Lukan, we wouldn't have this problem at all. Every group we have talked to said that this system has never been used before and didn't make any sense with all the explaining you guys were doing. I regret that you feel you must step out but that's your decision.


You must not have talked to anyone that can do math.

I wish you'd stay, Lukan, it might all work out ok... but I understand your POV. I'm not too thrilled with how things played out myself :)


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia

I wish you'd stay too, but I see your point and I'm not going to beg you to stay. Perhaps if I run another game I'll have you as priority and I'll be sure to suggest you to any game you attempt to join as you are a great roleplayer.

Taldor

Male

As a neutral third party I have to say, there have been some incredible displays of sheer rudeness and outbursts in this game. One side has been debating a possible loot system as adults while the other has refused to debate it beyond raging and flaming the other.

If it isn't too late, i'd propose using Ganit's system but not paying for loot. This is what me and several of my players do in several successful PbP's. Essentially it would work like this-

The sale value of items and combined value of coins gem's etc. comes to 3000 gold pieces.

Each player gets 500 gold to claim out of it.

Player X wants item Y, which costs 1,000 gold.

He takes the item, and everyone else gets 400 gold. He then 'owes' the additional 500 gold out of his next treasure share; simply put, he takes 500 less from the next share, without having to pay gold back in.

This means people can claim what they like and it works out balanced and fair to everyone. As long as loot keeps coming in it works.


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

As a neutral third party I have to say, there have been some incredible displays of sheer rudeness and outbursts in this game. One side has been debating a possible loot system as adults while the other has refused to debate it beyond raging and flaming the other.

If it isn't too late, i'd propose using Ganit's system but not paying for loot. This is what me and several of my players do in several successful PbP's. Essentially it would work like this-

The sale value of items and combined value of coins gem's etc. comes to 3000 gold pieces.

Each player gets 500 gold to claim out of it.

Player X wants item Y, which costs 1,000 gold.

He takes the item, and everyone else gets 400 gold. He then 'owes' the additional 500 gold out of his next treasure share; simply put, he takes 500 less from the next share, without having to pay gold back in.

This means people can claim what they like and it works out balanced and fair to everyone. As long as loot keeps coming in it works.

Didn't want to say anything, but I agree with the above.

Also I agree with the loot system. It makes sense and no one loses out. It's certainly the most fair if you don't have the cash on you.


Male Elf Wood Elementalist Wizard

Neutral, as you come in and insult me thank you. Lukan i am sorry this argument came so far and wish things could go under the bridge and continue playing but essentially I cannot walk carrying gold only to give it all up just someone does not get their feelings hurt by not getting 10 gold 5 silver more so everything is fair. You all seem to forget we are trying to play a game that does not use computers this is based off a tabletop game that you sit around and play a game. To try and denote everything down to an equal cent is in my opinion ridiculous and unrealistic. It does not happen that way ever.

Taldor

Male
Tholamin Medvyed wrote:
Neutral, as you come in and insult me thank you.

Neutral as in I don't have a stake in what loot system you use and can therefore make my judgements without bias.

The loot system I proposed above ensures everyone gets an equal share and never has to pay money into the loot pool. Its a system that many role-players use, both in PbP and Tabletop, to divide loot fairly. It means someone can claim what is useful to them without worrying about taking too much.


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3

Lukan, as you leave so too do my dreams of a glorious bro-mance. Your PC was my favorite to interact with so it will be a definite loss with you gone.

I feel that you're absolutely right with your fears for the future. Rest assured that my faith in our ooc dynamic is shaken. Evidently it is out of our ability to come to simple agreements on simple issues, when the time comes that go into kingdom building and asset management I can imagine the majority of postings on this board will be removed by an administrator and decisions will come down from the flip of a coin.

I suppose it was our own ignorance at fault for joining a game called "Kingmaker" and expecting to build a democracy.

Good luck out there friend.

Alex, I find that your system works wonderfully for the purposes ours had wished to accomplish. This should solve our current problem but I think the underlying issue is going to be how we work together on the problems we'll see later in the AP. I feel as though this situation could exemplify how we will work together in problem solving in the future and if that's the case I don't think anyone will be able to fully enjoy the game.


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia

Lukan, please don't leave.

Actually I've been biting back my tongue for a while hoping for Tholamin and Zayne to chill out and get along with the group, but clearly that's not going to happen.

Sorry but theres clearly no going forward like this and I don't think the behaviour of Tholamin and Zayne is acceptable. As the others pointed out they were trying to have a civilised argument and then you started flaming and I don't wish to tolerate that anymore.

Hence, I've made a decision which some people may not be happy with. I'm going to continue the game with the other four (including Lukan if he wishes to come back) and re-recruit two additional players to replace Tholamin and Zayne. Good luck to both of them in any future gaming they do here on Paizo but i'm not willing to ruin the game for four people by continuing to tolerate such behaviour.

I have no intention of being sucked into an abusive argument or discussion about this so if I see any such comments I will simply flag them and move on, same for any comments on the IC thread. For now, the other four, please continue to post and i'll look into recruitment once more. I'm sorry it came to this.


posting from my phone, excuse bad typing please :).

Alex thank you for the input. is that system the same as what i put forth last night gthat im afraid got lost in the shuffle?

DM Aron, I am dissapointed it came to this, but i believe your decision might save the game.

Good luck to zayne and tholamin in future games.

Taldor

Male

Cambyl originally u put forward people putting gold back into the pot but I think you did change over to this eventually but it didn't really get touched on. It works extremely well for my group, the Baron handles loot splits from his end and its all balanced out nicely.

I know Aron hates confrontation so believe me when I say it took a fair amount to get him to this point.


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3
Cambyl wrote:
Alex thank you for the input. is that system the same as what i put forth last night gthat im afraid got lost in the shuffle?

Yeah, I thought about mentioning that earlier but it didn't really seem like something to worry about. Fingers crossed that Lukan checks the board again soon. 50% chance he's washed his hands of this whole mess but I know that I'm the kind of ego maniac who would come back to see other people reactions lol.

As for role playing, we could let Aron run the casters as hirelings until we get back to Oleg's and meet up with the new recruits? Or we could have some sort of deus ex machina sort of deal. Idk, it's Aron's call.

Thanks for your help Alexander, it's always nice to see an outside perspective of things

Good luck to zayne and tholamin in future games.


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia
The Hermit Ganit D'Artain wrote:
Cambyl wrote:
Alex thank you for the input. is that system the same as what i put forth last night gthat im afraid got lost in the shuffle?

Yeah, I thought about mentioning that earlier but it didn't really seem like something to worry about. Fingers crossed that Lukan checks the board again soon. 50% chance he's washed his hands of this whole mess but I know that I'm the kind of ego maniac who would come back to see other people reactions lol.

As for role playing, we could let Aron run the casters as hirelings until we get back to Oleg's and meet up with the new recruits? Or we could have some sort of deus ex machina sort of deal. Idk, it's Aron's call.

Thanks for your help Alexander, it's always nice to see an outside perspective of things

Good luck to zayne and tholamin in future games.

Well I've perfer you guys not to die so that sounds reasonable until arriving at Oleg's.


Human Ranger 3 / Rogue 2
Stats:
HP 38/38; AC 18, touch 13, Flat Footed 15; CMD 19; Fort +3, Reflex +9 (Evasion), Will +4; Perception +11 (+1 v traps; +2 v Humans); Initiative +3
DM Aron Marczylo wrote:
The Hermit Ganit D'Artain wrote:
Cambyl wrote:
Alex thank you for the input. is that system the same as what i put forth last night gthat im afraid got lost in the shuffle?

Yeah, I thought about mentioning that earlier but it didn't really seem like something to worry about. Fingers crossed that Lukan checks the board again soon. 50% chance he's washed his hands of this whole mess but I know that I'm the kind of ego maniac who would come back to see other people reactions lol.

As for role playing, we could let Aron run the casters as hirelings until we get back to Oleg's and meet up with the new recruits? Or we could have some sort of deus ex machina sort of deal. Idk, it's Aron's call.

Thanks for your help Alexander, it's always nice to see an outside perspective of things

Good luck to zayne and tholamin in future games.

Well I've perfer you guys not to die so that sounds reasonable until arriving at Oleg's.

Yeah, dying smells


Male Human Bard 4

DM Aron, I congratulate you. That couldn't have been an easy decision, but I fear it was much needed. The silly loot debate aside, these two showed much evidence of a conspirational behavior, and I believe any issues that wouldn't please one of them would be blocked by both. What's worse, we had evidence that in these cases they would simply plant their feet and refuse absolutely.

I thank you for making that decision in the benefit of the game as a whole.

I'm not an expert on these forums, but I think we can go to the recruitment thread and find out Lukan's previous forum name and try to hunt him down in the forums.


I think that's his only alias, so hopefully he will check back here soon.


Master of Procrastination and Grognardia
Cambyl wrote:
I think that's his only alias, so hopefully he will check back here soon.

Yeah, think you're right. Hopefully he checks in and then I'll make a recruitment thread, dm pc the other two and will write them out somehow.

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